BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: Night Owl
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 02:20 PM

gnu.....echoing Bobert's and others......Hospice!! They can be a resource not only for your friend....but for you as well....to help you help your friend. I love their motto here: "Dying is NO reason to stop living."

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: beadie
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 02:07 PM

gnu:
Definitely, Hospice. I worked in acute care hospitals for nigh on to thirty years before changing professions, and I witnessed the evolution of "end-of-life care" into the nineties. Its still evolving, and it has a long, long way to go before reaching the goal of allowing us to pass with comfort and dignity and without fear. But, that said, hospice generally represents the best that is available by way of support and rational care planning.

As for the docs, some are OK, a few are really good, but many still think of death as an "enemy" that it is possible to defeat. Aside from Dorain Gray, I can't think of anyone who has ever beaten the Grim Reaper. Pain control is a difficult concept to master, and I would urge your pal to make aboslutely certain to his MD exactly what his wishes on this score are. If the doc says it can't be controlled, find another doc. I cannot recall how many times I heard MDs worry about giving too much pain control medication for fear that the patient might "become addicted." So he's addicted . . . . so what??!! With only a short prognosis, how much of a habit can he develop? Surely not so much as to have him run out and knock over a liquor store to feed the monkey.

From your position, give him support, but let him tell you how much. The need varies with the patient and most will let you know if you're getting too intense.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 06:25 AM

I've read the other posts and would like to respond to each, but let me just say thank you for your advice and good wishes. I'm gonna print this thread later today and give it to him... we're gonna tie one on tonight. I went through my big old box of photos and picked out a bunch of pics of us over the last twenty five years so I'm sure the tall tales will abound until the wee hours. Thanks again to all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 06:13 AM

John from Hull.... no no no, I meant that the last couple of sentences of MY post sounded morbid. Your post was constructive and I thank you for taking the time to participate. BTW, if you ever do "use" a car, might I suggest taking a real sporty car for a test drive at one of those really snooty car dealerships.... that's more along my buddy's line of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 06:07 AM

CC asked "How does he feel about the bodhran?" He use to love to come to our sessions and says he misses them (the lads have all gone afar in their jobs). Playing along to the stereo just ain't the same... as a matter of fact, I find it embarrassing and just do it alone for practice. Although, I have a couple of tapes of whistle and playing a FEW tunes for close friends is okay.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 03:51 AM

If I were faced with it, I'd do everything I could to live as Mark has said.

I'd give all of my treasures away to my kids, family, and friends, regardless of whether I lasted or not.

I'd tell Rog to get that motor home after all and we'd travel all over the country visiting family, friends, and Mudcatters and singing, looking at old gravesites and buried ancestors, and do some more genealogical digging in the hopes that I could finish writing my books along the way.

I'd write as many letters of love as I could to all whom I know. In fact, I try to do this anyway, but now is just as good a time as ever, so...next day's project.:-)


gnu, I hope this thread helps some. You are a good friend and I admire you for your care and support of your friend.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:50 AM

Mark makes some very good points--I was hoping he'd post to this thread. Yes, indeed, don't let anyone dictate exactly how long he will live. And let the hospice kick him out when he gets well!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:47 AM

Gnu, faced with cancer, many people think "I don't want to die," immediately followed by family concerns such as "what will happen to my children!" Since he doesn't apparently have children, he's still probably struggling with the first part of that.

You say he is holding a grudge, but I hope he will let the ex know what is happening. She will feel terrible enough anyway when she learns of his death, but perhaps a reconciliation if some sort would help them both feel better about the whole thing?

So he's wild, but he's dying. What can he choose to do that will give him the most bang for his buck? Can he take a cruise to the South Pacific or the Caribbean and float in those wonderful blue waters over white sand? Doesn't sound like he'll be going to climb any mountains or run a big dream race. Go somewhere exotic, but where help is available with his prescriptions and pain medication if he needs it. I suppose Max's answer is a "guy thing," but sounds a bit reckless. At least encourage him to choose things that won't harm another person (unprotected sex, for example. It's great if you can manage it, but depending on his partner(s) he could put them at great risk.)

Suicide is a very difficult thing to contemplate. But if he decides that he needs a plan for the point when his pain becomes too great, then assisting him with preparations might be the greatest act of love you can do for him. But take pity on the friends and family who will be shocked, hurt, and left behind to mourn--be sure his affairs are in order and that if he is inclined to leave messages or instructions for friends and family that he does so in plenty of time. Having gone through a recent suicide of a loved one, I can say that the more information he leaves for friends, the better it will be for them.

Good luck in dealing with this. My heart goes out to you.

Maggie

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:38 AM

gnu, you might want to take a look at another good book, called Love, Medicine, and Miracles by Dr. Bernie Siegel.   

There are as many ways of "dealing" with this situation as there are people. But the biggest message, as others have said, is, DON'T BUY INTO WHAT THE DOCTORS SAY! (And I say that as a doctor.) Too many people have died "on schedule" because they thought they were doing what their doctor wanted them to do--and that's the honest no-shit truth. In point of fact, no doctor on earth can tell for certain how long a particular person will live. Period. On the other hand, it doesn't do any good to tell a person how he can live longer and better if he really doesn't want to live. All you can do is be as ALIVE as possible when you're with him and talking to him...and let him draw his own conclusions.

And do get in touch with a hospice...as soon as possible. Most people who work in hospices say their biggest frustration is that they are usually contacted way too late. They can always kick him out of the program later if he decides to get better.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 10:10 PM

gnu:

I agree whole heartedly with CarolC On this one. Hopsice, hospice, hospice!

I have a little experience with this. First, at age 6 I contracted polio. This was back around 1952 when folks were dieing of polio. I spent 11 months in the hopspital. Much of the time was in an "iron lung". Lots of kids died around me. No rhyme. No reason. But I didn't die. Two years worth of rehab and I was walkin' without braces and without a limp. Then I technically drowned and was recessitated. Well, what came out of those experiences was my Faith in God.

Then, fast forward to 6 years ago. My wife, Judy, age 52, was diagnosed with breast cancer. After a lumpectomy and a mysectomy and cemoe and radiation it became apparent that she would not survive.

We prayed on it and the angels that reponded were the *hospice* workers. These folks came into our home and helped deal with so mnay of the issues of death and dieing.

What came from their efforts was a *quality of life* for Judy. She came to realize that company, especially that of relatives, was absolutley *precious* and we made every day count. We packed 30 years worth of *goodness* and *quality* into her final 3 or 4 months.

Your friend needs a friend who is willing to put it on the line and give the *hard advice*. Yes, this is *hard advice* but *advice* that your friend desperately neeeds. He can and will find comfort, and support and knowledge and, and, and.... from hospice. These people will become his best friends...

Please deliver the *hard advice*, gnu, for it is the most loving thing that you can give your friend...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:26 PM

Well...me I would want to be with my family...but then I'm funny like that...

Last week, we were all with my Opa when he died at home....and those who couldn't make it called him to say their farewells...he was barely coherent...but could hear....Today was the military interment....taps on the bugle...the gun salute...and the flag folding...it was a beautiful ceremony....

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:06 PM

gnu-sorry if my post sounded morbid, but that IS what I would do, 5 years ago my dad died of cancer, in hospital, I was there at the time, and decided there and then that if ever I got a terminal illnes, I would kill myself. no doubt about it, if I didnt have access to a car, I would choose the quickest way possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: vectis
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:59 PM

If he knows what he REALLY wants to do if he had the chance. eg change his life, do something potty, fulfil an ambition he should grab this last opportunity and go right out and do it NOW while he still can.
People who tend to outlive their prognosis are the ones who grabbed life by the bo@#+*@s and squeezed hard, just for the sheer joy of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:58 PM

How does he feel about the bodhran?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:57 PM

What would I do? Be glad the end was near and hope I go in my sleep so I didn't have to witness it or think about it. I'd also hope it was a private affair, not me in a hospital bed surounded by friends or relatives, or worse still a doctor or a nurse.

gnu, I am replying to what I think I would do as that was what the question asked. What your friend will do or what you may do as a friend are completely different matters.

If I can offer them to a male {{hugs}}

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:47 PM

BM. I know you know of what you speak. I recall your singing of "The Parting Glass" to a dying friend in a previous thread. Thanks for your words and wisdom - they are true. It is said that in death, we are all united. If only we could be so in life.

Geez, that's so fucking morbid. And that's not me buddy !!! Seriously, he needs any good advice and he'd like some wild ideas... he's not dead yet fer ******sakes ! He loves to laugh. Just hear him tell how he got a second "death insured" mortgage. Then he bought a Merc with some of the cash and then got a personal loan against the Merc. Cash, cash, cash, and all gone to good charities... after he increased his credit card ratings and spent the limits, none of the goods recoverable by the creditors, all gone to charities.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:40 PM

Well, whatever he decides to do or not do, I know he's very lucky to have you for a friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:38 PM

I wouldn't bother with the 6 months, i would drive my car into a tree at 70MPH, probably be dead in less than a second.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: smallpiper
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:34 PM

On Death and Dying by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross published by Routledge ISBN 0-415-04015-9 an excellent book and it may help a lot

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:54 PM

Be there, gnu. One will inevitably measure their life at this time. That is when it will become crystal clear to your friend that, in the end, our life has worth in the friends we have accumulated and the help we have offered others. As the time draws near for him to make the passage, seeing those that will miss him is what will help him to be peaceful.

I love your attitude of "it's his life" and, if I may add to it, it is his death as well.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:36 PM

Gee, I think I may have said something incorrectly... re visitors... he only wants certain vistors. His buddies. No relatives who are not buddies, especially any ex-relatives... hey, he holds a grudge... it's his choice. And, no relatives he loves near the end... no sisters, brothers, cousins, aunts, uncles, none - not near the end.

Yes, being with someone when they pass can be a very loving and beautiful experience. I was with my father when he passed. The details are not pretty but the fact is that I was there and I spoke to him and I believe he heard me. I cannot imagine the pain and loneliness of passing alone... no physical or mental pain could be worse. I hope I can be there for my buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:18 PM

Wow. Well, I'm thinking he might want to see if there are any hospice services in his area. They can be an enormous help for people in your friend's situation.

I think he should probably get some help with telling the rest of his friends and family, maybe from the male friend or family member he feels closest to.

Since he's a wild man, I think he should probably make as much of the rest of his life into a party as he possibly can. With as much music as possible.

The husband of one of my oldest and best friends died of leukemia about 15 years ago. I didn't see him during his final days, but his wife and daughter were with him as much as possible during that time, and they were with him while he passed. Although it was a heartbreaking experience for them, they describe it as having been a very loving and beautiful experience.

There are books that can help people during times like this. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross has written some very good ones, and this post to the accordion thread I started a couple of days ago mentions Ram Das and a book called "Still Here" that was of some help for the one who posted about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: NicoleC
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:04 PM

Dunno, but I doubt I'd give up and decide the doctors knew everything and I was doomed. Far too many folks have refused to accept such a prognosis and beat the odds. I know a couple -- they never prepared to die, never refused to give up, and instead focused their energies on *living.* (They also stopped talking to doctors that only wanted to talk about their impending tragedy.)

You might die anyway, but dwelling on the number of days or months you have left to live and if you're going to fit everything in your last moments seems an unhappy end.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:01 PM

It's easy enough to come up with answers when it isn't happeninig to me and I doubt they would really match the seriousness of the situation. With no kids, unattached he has the choice of deciding where he would most want to be when he goes. He has a little time in which to wrap up any communicating he left undone, resolve any old issues with others, forgive and be forgiven -- all of which would add up to a pleasanter transition. He might also seriously want to consider contacting the Hemlock Society. Given the option of   months excruciating pain I might want to just go sit in a wee rowboat on the Seine or some place like that and drop the right pill, I dunno. But I would make sure I had cleaned up my messes before I did, made things easy as possible for those coming after.

This is a hard, hard question, and really he's the only one who can answer what is right for him here -- it is a domain of sacred personal sovereignty, exiting a game like this one, IMHO.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: Kim C
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:00 PM

Welllllll.....

He may not want visitors, but there will be people who will want to see him, and they will be hurt by this. I doubt he will want his loved ones to be sad that they didn't get to visit with him. Perhaps he has his reasons but personally I think he should think long and hard about that one. If people want to love you, I think you ought to let them.

My friend Sheila died from cancer just before Christmas last year. She had been ill for nearly a year, and had the same grim prognosis. She lived longer than everyone, including the doctors, thought she would. She was only 43. I went to see her in the hospital, and I wrote her a letter. I was glad I had the opportunity to do both.

Knowing myself the way I do, I'd insist that people come visit me! And bring me flowers, and plump up my pillows, and read to me, and paint my toenails, and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: Max
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:58 PM

Well, since preserving ones health isn't an issue, I'd probably have unprotected sex, do a lot of LSD, maybe pick up a coke and heroin habit to see what its like, bungee jump, hang glide, base jump, use a lot of salt, eat fast food and great big rare steaks, try crack and raw chicken...

To summarize, I'd do all the things that we're usually too afraid to do. I don't believe in hell, and I wouldn't be around here anymore, so I'd have a few months of zero consequences. Nothing to lose, out with a bang.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:42 PM

No. I know your wisdom would benefit all who would read this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:33 PM

Sorry to hear about your friend, gnu. Shall I contact you by PM?

Subject: BS: Facing Death - What would you do ?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:26 PM

I know this is an age old question and may have already been asked here, but I searched the forum archives for "death" and didn't find any threads which ask this question, which doesn't mean a lot because I am rather inept at such searches. My apologies for any screw ups and my thanks for your subsequent direction to such or related threads.

Alas, a buddy of mine, at the age of 46, divorced, no kids, has been given a rather "short" prognosis for survival (6 months max), slim chance of beating the odds (prayer & miracle), and a rather grim outlook (at least several weeks of excruciating pain for which medication short of comatic state may not dull). He's arranged his affairs but now has problems which he doesn't know how to deal with. He doesn't know how to tell his loved ones. He doesn't know how to say goodbye. He doesn't know how to tell them he doesn't want visitors in the hospital, especially the ex or family. He doesn't know how he wants to spend the last three or four months.

He has done the second death insured mortgage, the no question life insurance, and the insured credit card thing.

What would you do ? And don't just think somber. He's a wild man... always was and will be to the end.

sadgnu