BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: Bobert
Date: 30 May 03 - 10:15 PM

Dougie:

I don't think you could find yer butt in the dark with both hands...

Ahhh, jus' funnin', kinda.

Well, lets consider another scenerio. Lets say that the pendulum swings in the other direction and you fing yerself on the, ahhhh, *outs*. Yeah, I know that you don't think that the radiacl noecons (extreme liberals) will make a mis-step and allow this to happen but it could. Heck, God could send a thunderbolt down on a NASCAR race and it would be over in matter minutes... But that's a different story...

Yeah, so the table turns and it's real Christain's running the government and social programs. Oh, now would that be real bad. I mean, these folks wouldn't serve you a meal 'er provide you transporation for yer rehab sessions fir that broken hip unless you knew Christ thru Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Bummer. No "Rule Boy" Uncle Tom Paul. No Old Testement... No, just the teachings of Jesus. Oh man. Bummer. Not Jesus!!!! Fir Christ's sake. And there you are in line... And if you ain't into love, forgiveness and living thru Him, then yer out....

Geeeze Louse, Doug.

Purdy danged scarey being, ahhhhh, a real Christain, and to make it worser, now the government, for which you have paid taxes all yer danged life, expects you to get the right answers if you want their services....

Hmmmmmmmm? Well, what are the "right" answers.

Reminds me of an old joke. Man comes into the Social Service Agency fir help. Well, they grab him, dunk him in a barrel of water and then after lettin' him up just before he was gonna surelu drown, "Do you believe?" to which the man said...

"Yeah, I believe yer trying to drown me...."

So, Doug, et all, I've been trying to warn you folks. Be carefull what you ask for...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 03 - 06:00 PM

How about looking at it as a means to save money and even perhaps get a job done more efficiently?

Yeah, that's exactly how it works with defense contractors :-\

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: DougR
Date: 30 May 03 - 05:42 PM

Democrats and Labor Unions see this as a union busting and political favortism? Surprise, surprise, surprise.

How about looking at it as a means to save money and even perhaps get a job done more efficiently? Keep in mind that the private companies who win those contracts hire people to do the jobs too. The federal government might be the largest employer in the U. S., but that does not mean it is the most efficient one, or the cheapest.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 03 - 04:33 PM

Regardless, I do not believe they should have the right to hire or not based on one's religion!

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 03 - 03:17 PM

I understand where you're headed, Nicole. I guess at this point I'm talking about hypotheticals. I'm not exactly clear, from what I read in the article, about what is occurring already or what might occur under the new regulations, with regard to which religious groups recieve money from the government and for what purposes they are (ostensibly) recieving it.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 May 03 - 02:49 PM

I did not say that government money should be used to promote religion. I said that HAVING and PRACTICING religion should not be a bar to recieving money for non-religious purposes.

My misunderstanding, Mmario, we're in agreement. The reason why religious charitable organizations don't uses federal funds to promote religion is because that's the way the law is NOW. They can mention that there are faith-based services available, but they can't require them. Dubya has repeatedly stated he wants to lift that restriction and allow them to prostelitize with government funds, as well as allowing them to use those funds to practice hiring practices which are contrary to federal laws on the uses of federal funds.

Polls of Americans frequently show support for this -- but only, of course, for that particular person's religious preferences. When asked if this should apply to ALL religions, people say no. Which only goes to show that lifting the restriction is stupid and opens up a can of constitutional worms and religious bigotry.

But if a law doesn't provide a mechanism whereby it is applied constitutionally, is the law constitutional?

All laws are required to be applied constitutionally, it does not need to be explicitly stated in each law. There is a review process for any law as stated in our Consitution, so that also does not need to be explicitly stated either. Are we speaking of a hypothetical Wiccan charity group, or one in particular? Because the review process would require a test case going through the courts to show that the law is either unconstitutional or is being *applied* in an unconstitutional manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: MMario
Date: 30 May 03 - 02:46 PM

well carol - we are talking a government here who defines "limited term" to be, what, 15 years for a patent; but life plus 70 years for a copyright.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 03 - 02:23 PM

But if a law doesn't provide a mechanism whereby it is applied constitutionally, is the law constitutional?

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: MMario
Date: 30 May 03 - 02:09 PM

Nicole - contrary to popular belief - very few charitable organizations supported by religious groups have ANY sort of religious requirements regarding the reciept of their services. I have never personally encountered a single one. And I have been VERY active in charities.

I did not say that government money should be used to promote religion. I said that HAVING and PRACTICING religion should not be a bar to recieving money for non-religious purposes.

Heck - my own church doesn't even require you to practice our faith in order to recieve the sacrements. (Though why anyone would want to recieve the sacrements when not a practicing member I don't know)

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 May 03 - 02:01 PM

I agree it rarely happens, Carol, but that's a different matter than what the law states. Technically speaking, they ARE eligible. The problem lies with how the funds are granted in the political process, not the law itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:57 PM

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; "

Doesn't making laws that give money to religious organizations to allow them to promote their religion count? The unconstitutional interpretation would be to prevent religions from using their OWN money to promote their religion.

Giving money to a religious charity that, for example, requires a homeless person to pray in their particular approved manner before getting a bowl of soup is in reality providing funds to one religion in order to help them prosteletize.

Secondly, it forces individual taxpayers to unwilling give money to promote religious prostelization they don't support, which inhibits their free exercise of religion (or lack thereof.)

Following your logic no practicing person of religion should recieve ANY governmental services

No, that doesn't follow. We are talking about the establishment (i.e. promotion), not the free exercise thereof. Providing federal funds to non-religious activity isn't relate to this discussion -- which is why courts have decided in the past that religious organizations who keep their charitable work separate from their prostelization are eligible for federal funds.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:44 PM

Religious organizations who choose to do charity work should, however, be able to provide services which are not faith-based, and receive federal/state assistance for that portion of their work.

I don't see that happening in a fair and balanced way either. If a Wiccan Coven was doing charitable work that was not faith-based, I seriously doubt that they would be granted any money. And then there's the matter of cults. They would have the same claim to grant money as mainstream religions. I don't see the fundamentalist religions in this country tolerating that for a nanosecond.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: MMario
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:40 PM

That's not what the constitution says though. Read it. I qouted it word for word above.

However, a group HAVING a religious affiliation and abiding by the rules of their religion does NOT necessarily equal "religious activity" - no does their accepting or seeking funds from any government necessarily mean the government is promoting their religion.

Following your logic no practicing person of religion should recieve ANY governmental services - I assume this would include medicare, social security, police protection, the services of the court. I suspect they shouldn't be allowed to drive on roadways built with govermental money, either, should they? or eat crops subsidized by federal funds? It's probably violating the sonstitution to allow them to vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:34 PM

I disagree, Mmario. True separation of church and state means that NO taxpayer/federal funds go toward any kind of promotion of religious activity.

Religious organizations who choose to do charity work should, however, be able to provide services which are not faith-based, and receive federal/state assistance for that portion of their work. And that includes who you hire to do the work.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: MMario
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:19 PM

Carol - I agree that it's never going to be. But I also strongly believe it's what was intended - that religious practice, or lack or religious practice, regardless of what faith etc, be taken totally out of the equation.

BUT - the statement ibn the article is NOT about giving religious groups government contracts. it is a seperate issue. (at least that is what the language of the article states).

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:16 PM

Depends, Kat. An Executive Order can't override something that's enshrined in the law, but regulations, by definition, are issued by the Executive Branch (the Departments of this, that and the other are all part of the Executive). My own experience is that every new Administration spends the first few years trying to get the philosophy of the prior one out of the regulations and their own in.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:13 PM

But is it possible for "all other things (to be) equal with competing or similar groups"?

If a Wiccan Coven wanted to provide services under those provisions, and they put in a comptetive bid, do you think the Bush presidency would allow them to compete fairly? And do you think the right-wing Christian groups would be silent about it if the Bush administration did allow them to compete fairly? So how could giving religious groups government contracts not be an example of the blending of church and state? If the government recognises one religion over another, how is that not the making of laws respecting an establishment of religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:04 PM

What artbrooks said.

And this would be a necessary and probably (hopefully) anticipated result of government funding of relgion-based aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: MMario
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:00 PM

now if they were planning to make affiliation with specified religious organizations required to recieve federal assistance - THAT would be unconstitutional...;

just as requiring someone to hire a person of whom their religion forbids the hiring should be unconstitutional.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: MMario
Date: 30 May 03 - 12:57 PM

it's a catch 22 situation; if the church and state are seperate - then the state has no validation to *NOT* give the religious groups money if all other things are equal with competing or similar groups.

Seperation of church and state *should* take whether or not the group has a religious affiliation out of the equation. Likewise seperation of church and state should mean that the state can make NO rulings regarding religion.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 03 - 12:50 PM

MMario, the catch, though, is that said religious groups receive government funding.

art, don't you think that this is meant to override any federal regs.?

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 May 03 - 11:47 AM

"Privitization" is not new with the Bush administration, but the old system required a study under a process called "A-76" (for the number of the regulation that required it) to determine if the private company could do the work as well but cheaper. All of the studies I was involved in concluded that they couldn't, except for some limited exceptions such as janitorial work, which pay minimum wage (minimum is something like $2/hr less than the lowest Federal wage).

I don't think that the article is saying that religious groups that get government contracts can discriminate on the basis of religion; anti-discrinination clauses are included in most Federal contracts. That part sounds more like its directed at religious groups that are part of the public assistance system (which is another of Bush's bright ideas and an entirely different topic).

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: MMario
Date: 30 May 03 - 11:36 AM

to be logical...if you believe in sepearation of church and state then the government should not be able to prevent religious discrimination in hiring by religious organizations. if you DON'T believe in seperation of church and state - then the goverment can make rulings about dicrimination based on religion.

Oddly enough - that sentence seems totally divorced from the rest of the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 30 May 03 - 11:27 AM

god, don't you just love the policies of the pretender? He sure makes me proud to be american....I guess it is just as well I'm leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 03 - 11:24 AM

Here's a bit more:

Democrats and labor unions see the Bush administration changes as union-busting and political favoritism, and they pointed to problems at NASA as a red flag.

The procurement rules are among many revisions the administration is undertaking that do not require congressional approval. Officials are rewriting rules that determine which workers are entitled to overtime pay. They also are acting to allow religious groups that receive government funds to discriminate in hiring based on religion.

Nearly half of the 1.8 million civilian government work force performs tasks that duplicate work in the private sector, the administration says. President Bush wants to let companies bid to provide that work, with at least 15 percent opened to competition by Oct. 31.

The regulations issued Thursday "will open much wider the doors to those businesses and their workers who can seek to provide to the American taxpayer a better value at a better price," said Mitch Daniels, outgoing director of the Office of Management and Budget.

Subject: RE: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'd
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 03 - 11:21 AM

a move to bust unions?

great so if your a muslim...or just not christain you won't get the job???

Subject: BS: Job discrimination based on religion ok'
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 03 - 11:17 AM

In a move which does not need Congress's okay, the bush admin. is moving to open government jobs to private competition. You may read about it here I've included the beginning of the article.

What really piqued my interest and ire was this in particular:

They also are acting to allow religious groups that receive government funds to discriminate in hiring based on religion.!!!

Here's the beginning of the article:

New rules open government jobs to private competition


Published Thu, May 29, 2003
By LEIGH STROPE, AP Labor Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - About 850,000 government jobs will be opened to private companies under new rules Thursday that encourage competition to replace federal workers who perform tasks such as giving weather reports to private pilots, fixing computers and taking money and tickets at national parks.