Songs in 5/4 time

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 03:54 AM

Zweifacker sounds like doublefucker for German ears, it is "Zwiefacher" = double one; after every two bars the metrum changes |:1/2 1/2 1/3 1/3:|

Most famous German example of 5/4 is Prinz Eugen. The song was written after the storming of Belgrad (in the Balkans) during the Turkish wars. The stress changes depending on the flow of the text, mostly 12 123 or 123 12, sometimes 1 12 12

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 09:03 PM

"I'm Gonna Leave You" by Rudy Stevenson (guitar & flute with Nina Simone)

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: GUEST,Tinker in Chicago
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM

We do "Drowzy Maggie" in 5/4. It's fun to watch the audience trying to clap along.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Tradsinger
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 01:52 PM

The one that springs to mind is "The Bold Fisherman", usually sung by revival singers in 3/4 a la Young Tradition but more commonly 5/4 by source singers. The way I sing Gamekeepers lie Sleeping has a lot of 5/4 bars in it.

Gwilym

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 01:39 PM

Of course, if we wander away from folk there's alway Holst.
"Mars, the bringer of war" from the Planet Suite.

Which neatly answers that old question, "How many beats in a Mars Bar?"

Nigel

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 09:09 AM

I seem to remember the version in the hymnals I used on the pipe organ was 4/4. Would be interested to see the dots for this alleged 5/4 version...

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:55 AM

Several years ago I sat down to learn a solo fingerstyle guitar arrangement of the hymn A Mighty Fortress Is Our God off of an Ed Gerhard CD. In the process I was surprised to discover that the tune was in 5/4 time. I don't know if it is always played that way, but it sounded very natural, and very much like other renditions I had heard over the years (including its use as the opening music for the children's claymation religious program Davey And Goliath, which Americans of a certain age will remember).

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: woodsie
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:41 AM

Spunk Rock (Box) by those Welsh acid heads MAN. It's in a weird pounding 5/4 time and very psychedelic!!!

PS Dave Pegg had zilch to do with "living in the past" The line up was Anderson, Bunker, Cornick & Barre.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Torctgyd
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 06:54 AM

I was told at school, so it must be true, that spoken English was almost naturally in Iambic Pentameter. Now I don't really understand what Iambic Pentameter means (I only really like poetry when it's sung to a good tune) but, and I'm guessing here, it would naturally lend itself to tunes in 5/4. So perhaps un-educated (musically speaking) English singers would tend to have drifted into 5/4 time.

On the face of it it does seem to make sense that the rythmns of the spoken language would influnce the rythmns of the songs. Does this show itself in the songs of other languages?

T

PS Searching For Lambs must be my favourite folk song, it seems to roll along so sweetly.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: The_Cott
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 05:17 AM

Wow I seem to have spurned some debate here. Thanks for all the contributions.

It is my (very uninformed) opinion that 5/4 is actually a rather natural rhythm to sing in English, especially the 1-2 1-2-3 form of it. The songs I know in 5/4 (Bold Fisherman, Mariners All, There Was a Young Farmer) all lump along in such a natural way that I wouldn't be at all surprised if the rhythm had formed a greater part in the English tradition and some of these rhythms may have been bent into 6/8 or 4/4 to suit the prejudices/narrow music horizons of some of the collectors.

Keep playing those tunes

-cjc

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 02:10 PM

nickp - yes to The Murdered Servantman, version from Marrowbones in 5/4 as I noted above.

Mick

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 12:38 PM

In balkan music, you think, as mentioned above, in terms of long and short--

Say "QuickSlow QuickSlow quickslow quickslow--Quickslow quickslow quickslow quickslow" with the stress on the "slow" and you've got the feel--to actually play it on say, a guitar(or tamboura), you've got to strum all five counts, "down-up down-up-down"--with stress on the third beat--The stress on the third beat is so strong that you could hear it as an even beat of about 80 beats per min, with each beat broken into quintuplets(you actually play this, about 400 beats per min)--

The German dances(zweifackers, I think they are called) are just like playing a measure of 2/4 followed by a measure of 3/4--

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: fogie
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 12:19 PM

As I walked out one may morning
1   2 3    4 5 1   2 3   4 5
One may morning betimes
1   2   3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5
I met a maid from home had strayed
1 2   3 4 5 1    2    3    4   5
Just as the sun did shine
1    2 3   4 5 1   2 3 4 5

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: treewind
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 10:52 AM

It may be 123,12 or 12,123 depending on the tune.
(often written as 3+2 or 2+3 respectively

Take Five is 3+2
The Gas Almost Works (John Kirkpatrick) is 2+3
The Weaver and Factory Maid changes mid tune!

Balkan dance tunes are a bit different - often the time sig is in quavers (half notes) so Pajdusko Horo (5/8) is 2+3 but it's really 1+1½ - short and long beats.

As to identifying timing - it's how many evenly-timed pulses you can count between strong beats. The first beat of the bar tends to be the strong beat. Easier said than done - you need somebody to show you, with typical tunes, so you get the feel for it. Sometimes the things that you count come a bit fast! (anything with 8 instead of 4 on the bottom of the time signature, for example)

Anahata

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 10:05 AM

Come to that - anyone got a link to somewhere with explanations of various timings. I don't read music properly & don't have a clue of how to identify a time signature - heeellllpppp.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: nickp
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 10:04 AM

I've always done it 123,12 123,12 but I expect that's wrong.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: stevethesqueeze
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 10:02 AM

for the life of me I can't understand 5/4 time. Could anyone enlighten me as to how one would count it? I have exhausted my ability trying to work it out!!

stevethesqueeze

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: nickp
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 09:15 AM

From VERY distant memory 'The Murdered Serving Man' - performed by Chris Foster (I think) - the one that goes

Now a famous(?) farmer as you shall hear
He had two sons and one daughter dear
Her servant man she much admired
None in the world she held so dear...

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 06:39 AM

Steve - The Ship In Distress in Penguin is one of the songs mostly in 5/4. It has a bar of 3/2 in the middle, a bar of 4/4 in the middle and goes out with three bars of 4/4. It could however easily be sung in 5/4 throughout (dropping a 1/4 note rest in the 3/2 and converting two 1/8 notes to 1/4s in most of the 4/4 bars.)
(This - and the reverse of converting 5/4 songs to 3/2 or 6/4 - is true of many of them).

The Sharp collected version referred to in the Penguin notes, from James Bishop of Priddy and "in many respects the grandest air' which he had found in that county", was in 3/2 througout.

Mick

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: treewind
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 05:29 AM

The tune for that version of The Handloom Weaver and The Factory Maid is based on a Welsh tune which I think (I'll check this later) is also in 5/4.

Somebody mentioned 3/2 - The Lass from Hexhamshire is a fine example of that. I haven't heard any songs in the more syncopated 3/2 rhythm of some of the old Lancashire Hornpipes.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: GUEST,Bob Lilley
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 05:14 AM

Check out "This is the truth sent from above" in the Oxford Book of Carols.
Also, Steeleye fans will remember their setting of "The Weaver and the Factory Maid": I don't know if it was originally in this tempo but I wouldn't be suprised if it was, it fits so well.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: pavane
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 04:55 AM

Searching for Lambs
(The Crystal Spring, Sharp & Karpeles)

I have also seen one in 5/8 in Sharp's books, but I can't find it at the moment

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 04:45 AM

Theship indistress ("You seamen all that plough the ocean ...") is in the Penguin BOEFS in a minor key, and the Coppers did it to a major version of the tune.

Steve

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 04:39 AM

Living in the past by Jethro Tull must be nearly old enough to be traditional ny now;-) It probably had Dave Pegg or someone playing on it anyway...

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 04:14 AM

It's not exactly trad, but I seem to recall hearing a song called "The Three-Legged Waltz" that was in 5/4. I think it may have been written by Mason Williams. I'm too tired to search for it now. Maybe somebody can tell me if I got any of that right.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Sep 03 - 10:42 PM

Odd metered tunes are quite common in Balkan folkmusic--including many in 5--in addition, there are a lot of German folkdances in odd meters, including five. The odd meters seem to be a holdover from pre-classical music, In the era of Classical music they smoothed out the rhythms in much the same way that it cleaned up the modal scales, so I kind of always have assumed that a lot of traditional melodies that we think of as being 4 actually had been smoothed over from 5 when they were assimilated into the musical mainstream--

In balkan music, the pulse of a 5 rhythm has the same feel as a heart beat, which is also the iambic foot in poetry--In odd moments, it strikes me that, given that the iamb is about the most common poetic foot, even in English verse, that that wobbly five pulse was once the most common one in music, as well, given that in ages past, verse tended to be sung--

I admit that this thinking is strictly supposition--However, back in my Balkan dance band days, we regularly stretched our Bulgarian sets by taking traditional "Western" melodies and reframing them in odd meters--Not only was"God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen" was perfect for playing as a Pajdusko(the Bulgarian 5/8 dance) it made the transition so smoothly that it was generally not recognized as a non-Bulgarian tune, even by serious Balkanophies--

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 12:54 PM

Murray, I THINK it may be a 4/4 version of the Monk's Gate tune, but I don't know Solfa, except for what's obvious.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 12:10 PM

Jeri, I am unable to download the score from tune from your link for some reason (my problem not the site's), and my soundcard isn't working, so I can't comment.

The version we sang in school is the original text from the Pilgrim's Progress, and the first line is, in Tonic Solfa :

d-,r m d| m.f s l -|s-s d |t d - -

Whether this is St Dunstan's I don't know, but it is definitely in 4/4

Murray

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 11:08 AM

The "Monks Gate" of the hymnals is named after the village near Horsham in Sussex where Harriet Verrall lived; it was her tune for Our Captain Calls that Vaughan Williams used for Bunyan's verses. He noted it in a mixture of 4/4 and 5/4. Cecil Sharp commented at the time that he had found a version in Somerset that was "as irregular in its rhythm".

Although collectors at that time were particularly pleased to find modal tunes, they were, on the whole, inclined to be perplexed by unusual rhythms. Those with more advanced musical training, like Sharp and Vaughan Williams, set it down as they heard it (generally getting singers to repeat the song a few times if circumstances permitted, in order to be sure that they had meant to sing it that way) but others, less confident of their own abilities, seem aften enough to have noted songs in conventional signatures that might have been better expressed otherwise.

Take Ella Bull, for example. She noted a number of songs from Charlotte Dann, who lived near her in Cambridgeshire (Lucy Wan appears in the Penguin book; the rest are unpublished). A proportion of them kept turning out to be in 5/4, and Miss Bull was quite worried about it; she thought that she must have misunderstood what Charlotte was doing. She turned for advice to Percy Merrick (mentioned above), who in turn put her in touch with Lucy Broadwood; who explained things for her.

Not all collectors had such informed advice, and even the heavyweights were not always sure, where complex variation was concerned. My suspicion is that 5/4 was more common than published examples as notated (there is a lot of material from the time which exists only in MS collections) might suggest; but I don't know that much work has been done on that.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 10:45 AM

How about Sovay, Sovay (The Female Highwayman). I think A L Lloyd quoted the theory that these were originally 6/8 songs that people tried to fit to 4/4 tunes. Not sure I'm quoting that exactly right but it's an interesting theory.

I think Lancashire Hornpipes that are in 3/2 are even more interesting.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 10:14 AM

Murray, maybe you're thinking of a different tune than I am?

Apparently, the proper name of the hymn is 'He Who Would Valiant Be". Here it is at this Cyberhymnal page, with embedded tune - 'St. Dunstan's' The tune I'm familiar with is the other one given on the page Monk's Gate (MIDI). This is definitely not 4/4. I don't know what the heck it's in though (brain's somewhere else) - maybe part 4/4 and part 5/4?

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 09:20 AM

I thought Steeleye's version of False Knight On the Road was also in 5/4. Bert Jansch has an early song in 5/4 called Little Rabbit Run. At least that's what the notes on the LP said. Heights of Alma has at least one 5/4 measure in it, I believe.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 09:16 AM

Jeri, To Be a Pilgrim is in rousing 4/4 time. If indeed Steeleye Span did it in 5/4 then it brings me to a point which I was going to post anyway, namely, that I doubt very much whether any of the songs listed above in 5/4 started life off as 5/4.

The fact that they are in manuscripts in 5/4 says more about the collectors and the performers rather than the songs themselves.

Anybody who has seen June Tabor perform (to take but one example) will know exactly how some singers cannot resist the temptation to take a simple song and make it complicated.

Murray

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 09:04 AM

Songs in Odd Time Signatures - I started that in '01, but it's not exclusive to 5/4.

I wrote one in 5/4 just to see if I could. [Click for MIDI] I like it (sounds hymnish), but I'm not sure it's legally 5/4 or some mixture. (Comments probably best - and welcome - by PM so as not to muck up this thread.)

Which reminds me - is the hymn 'To Be a Pilgrim' in 5/4? Steeleye Span used the tune for 'Our Captain Cried All Hands'.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 06:15 AM

I've just been through a few books with the following results:

From the Hammond/Gardner books:

Wanton Seed yielded 2:

The Murdered Servantman ("A famous farmer") - mrs Randall, Preston Candover(Hants) 1907
Sheffield Park - Moses Blake, Emery Down(Hants) 1906

Constant Lovers 2 versions of 1 song

Duke of Marlborough (A)William Chubb, Beominster (Dorset) 1906
                   (B)Mrs Webb, Bath(Somerset)

Marrow Bones had none


From Sharp's Collections:

Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs (ed Karpeles)
(Letters refer to versions when more than 1 tune)

Lord Bateman E, M
Barbara Ellen G
A Sailor By My Right (Flame of Fire) (I should have remembered this-used to sing it)
Sheffield Park A
Sweet William (A Sailor's Life) B, E
General Wolfe ("Bold Genr'l Wolfe to his men did say") B
I Sowed Some Seeds A, B

Sharp's English Folk Songs From The Southern Appalachians also had none

There were several tunes that were mainly in 5/4 with odd bars of some other rhythm (for example in Sharp's English Songs most versions of The Bold Fisherman were mostly in 5/4. The Appalachians had none like this).

Mick

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: fat B****rd
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 04:14 AM

"Get To You" by The Byrds. Well, most of it....

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 01:18 AM

NOW you tell me... I would have, but now I'll have to relearn it in order to do it correctly. I have almost got M.Carthy's version... and the sweat has lingered on my brow... it's tough for me to do! After I get this 'interpretation', I'll try to do a proper version... I just love the way it comes across in 5/4 though! ttr

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:49 PM

Revival singers often modify rhythms, so what they do isn't necessarily a reliable guide to the way the songs were sung in tradition. Martin Carthy sings an arrangement of the set of Judges and Juries that W. P. Merrick noted, in 3/4, from Henry Hills down at Shepperton in 1900 (with some text added). It may be that only a small shift of emphasis is or was required to bring it into 5/4, of course; my knowledge of musical theory doesn't run that far.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:02 PM

I believe that "Here's adieu to all judges and juries" by Martin Carthy is in 5/4... but maybe it's but one beat to the bar... ttr

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:23 PM

That'd be Robert Barratt's Rambling Comber, then (noted from him by the Hammond brothers at Piddletown, Dorset, 1905), rather than Henry Burstow's. Fair old bit of 5/4 in them parts.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: GUEST,Mart
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 07:45 PM

Chris Wood likes songs in 5 time. The Rambling Comber (on Knock John) springs to mind, and I know he does others.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 07:32 PM

If you want a few from a common source The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs has 2 entirely in 5/4:

The New York Trader
Ye Mar'ners All

(a few others there mix 5/4 with other rhythms).

Off the top of my head I think there are versions of The Duke Of Marlborough ("I am a general by my birth and Marlborough is my name") and of Bold Reynard The Fox ("Down by the green fields I did ramble in search of bold reynard the fox") in 5/4.

I just did a quick search on my converted abc files of the DT and I think the only one completely in 5/4 is Confess Jehovah (CNFSJHOV).

If you are really keen and I have some time I could look through some of the other standard books.

Mick

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 07:12 PM

A significant number of traditional songs found in Southern England in the early part of the 20th century were in 5/4, though opinions as to the best way of noting such things differed, as did opinions on how they came to be that way. Some collectors (typically those who just did a small amount out of interest, and weren't very experienced) were quite confused by that, and tended to worry that there was something wrong with their notation. There seem to have been clusters in particular districts, and some singers favoured them more than others. Mixed rhythms of 5/4 and 3/2 (or 6/4) were not infrequent, too.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Anglo
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 07:01 PM

I think there's at least one version of Bold Fisherman collected in 5/4, and I always think of Death & The Lady in 5/4 as well. Some of them might well be originally in 6/4, dropping a beat on a held note, And some have a 3/4 measure at the end of a line, so it (like much of trad English music) in not totally consistent. But there's a definite 5/4 feel.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: C-flat
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 06:44 PM

Not traditional but here's another example of 5/4.

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 06:44 PM

Check out much work by Dave Brubeck.   One of the innovators in 5/4 time music

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 06:32 PM

I am laying my neck on the block here, but my guess is that there aren't any. Some songs have the occasional bar with an extra note in them ("Flash Company " is one that springs to mind, 3/4 but one bar of 4/4, but a trad song in 5/4 all the way ? I don't think so ....

Murray

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 06:32 PM

I hav eenever heard anything traditional. The only well-known piece is Take Five itself. There are a few others, none of them trad. I'll see if I can find out any though.

A

Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time
From: jimmyt
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 06:13 PM

Take 5   theme from Mission Impossible

Subject: Songs in 5/4 time
From: GUEST,The_Cott
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 06:10 PM

Hi,

This question has probably been answered before but I couldn't find anything in a quick archive search (please point me to the thread if there is already an existing one):

I'd love to have a list of known traditional songs which are played in 5/4 time - please post any suggestions.

-cjc