Origins: magic flower refrains

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 May 05 - 11:58 PM

You seem to be thinking of Child's version 3 of Riddles Wisely Expounded, quoted from Motherwell's collection. The refrain is Sing the Cather banks, the bonnie brume / And ye may beguile a young thing sune. The "unco knicht" flies away in a blazing flame in the final stanza.

In the only example of Riddles containing the "Jennifer gentle" refrain, incidentally, there is no demonic element; the youngest sister wins the contest, and the song ends "And now, fair maid, I will marry with thee."

As I said earlier, there's no dispute over the demonic nature of the "hero" in Child 1. In Child 2, however, it is open to very serious question; as I also said earlier, there does seem to be some confusion in this discussion over which is which. You may perhaps have mis-remembered, or have seen a collated text made up of bits of several distinct versions (it wasn't The Oxford Book of Ballads, at any rate). Do please correct me if I am mistaken.

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 May 05 - 10:49 PM

Well, I know a version which has a maiden encountering an "unco knight" who asks a number of riddles. the last riddle is to name someone who is neither man nor woman. The maiden answers "And Clutie neither man nor woman was." That is the end of the song.

The unco knight presumably shouts "curses foiled again!" and vanishes. I looked Clutie up, and it's Scottish for Satan.

This song had the refrain "jennifer gentle and rosemary. The doue flies over the mulberry tree." I found it in an elderly library book; I'm almost positive it was an Oxford Book of --------. I might or might not be able to find it again.

GUEST: I apologize for not thanking you for the tip about jennifer/juniper. Belated thanks for that.

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 May 05 - 10:24 PM

Slightly longer ago (back in 1882), Francis Child wrote:

"The burden is printed by Gilbert, in the text 'Jennifer gentle and Rosemaree.' He appears to take Jennifer and Rosemaree to be the names of the sisters. As printed under the music, the burden runs, Juniper, Gentle and Rosemary. No doubt, juniper and rosemary, simply, are meant; Gentle might possibly be for gentian."

"The dew (variously glossed as 'dow' and 'dove') flies over the mulberry tree" belongs to that one traditional version only (see above). It has been quoted in many places, frequently without attribution and slightly re-worded, which may give the wrong impression that it occurs in more than one version of that song. The same interleaved refrain (often more garbled) also appears in a good few examples of The Wife Wrapt in Wether's Skin; but only in America. Since there is certainly no supernatural element in that song, nobody seems to have suggested any magical meaning for it in that context.

Chaucer lived long before any of these songs were made. What he may, or may not, have thought is irrelevant. What is relevant is what the people who made these songs, and those who sang them, thought. Until we know what their intention was, any speculation -however interesting- as to the meaning of the refrains they used is just that; speculation.

Child's brief observations on the devil "supplanting" The Elphin Knight were based on the titles alone of two texts, neither of which actually contain any reference to the devil. We don't know whether the titles were provided by the singers or the collectors (the latter was more common at the time), so it can't be taken for granted; "Contemplator's" comment is over-generalised and misleading. The (generally accepted) suggestion that Scarborough Fair derives from The Elphin Knight shouldn't be used as a basis for assuming that the male protagonist is the devil. We have no evidence to support that assumption; and very little to think that the devil belongs in The Elphin Knight at all.

Of course discussion is valid; I haven't suggested otherwise. It's best, though, not to rely entirely on repeating century-old speculation; or anachronistic "neo-pagan" herblore. New, more objective, perspectives are needed if we are to move beyond what has already been suggested long ago.

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:26 PM

In most versions of Tam Lin it's roses or branches, not herbs.

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:30 PM

Malcolm,I don't think anyone is confusing "Riddles Wisely Expounded" with "The Elphin Knight" Child himself says "That the devil should supplant the knight, unco or familiar, is natural enough. He may come in as the substitute of the elfin knight because the devil is the regular successor to any heathen sprite"

Despite a degree of "romanticisation" about "Flower Lore" herbs have been known to be used in funerary and other similarly unromantic rites throughout Europe.
Like you said there is probably no definitive answer but that does not make the subject invalid for further discussion. I also hope that by providing the source of some of Lucy Broadwoods interesting conclusions (i.e. The Rev H Friend's "Flowers and Flower Lore" ) I am not guilty of simply repeating "received wisdom"

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 05 - 08:54 AM

leeneia

Don't give Bob all the credit - I suggested the Jennifer/juniper connection four posts (and over 6 hours) earlier than him.

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 May 05 - 08:41 AM

Thanks for the interesting posts. I enjoy seeing these old songs, even if they are not strictly on topic.

Bob Coltman, I agree with you that jennifer probably evolved from juniper. A pleasant deduction!

Re: "That's not to say that there may not at some point have been some significance to "herbal" refrains in some contexts; but we don't actually know that..."   I suppose if someone found a manuscript in Geoffrey Chaucer's handwriting discussing the topic at length, then we would "know that." But I don't think that's going to happen.

Re: The refrain "Oh, the rose and the linsey, o" in "Cruel Mother," I suspect that "linsey" is a corruption of "lily." The rose and the lily were associated with the Virgin Mary. (I remember hearing that a lily was any large, fancy flower, not "lily" in the narrower sense that we use it today.)

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 05 - 07:50 AM

If the subject is herbs in folk ballads, there's a definite abortifacient in Tam Lin, a ballad that's full of magic:

Out then spoke her mother dear,
And ever alas, said she,
I know an herb in the merry green wood
That will scathe thy babe from thee...

She had not pulled at Cartershay
An herb but barely one,
Til up there started young Tamlin,
Said, Leave the herbs alone

Why pulls thou that bitter herb
Among the leaves so green?
And all to kill the bonnie babe
That we got us between

Plunging us, as iot were, into contemporary headlines with a bang.

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 18 May 05 - 09:49 PM

This is probably thread creep, but just in case you haven't heard it, here is the great old English song that talks about love entirely in terms of the language of flowers. The DT has the Clancy Bros. version; I've altered it to bring it back to the earlier traditional version, and added the original triumphant last verse...

SEEDS OF LOVE
D A7 D
I sowed the seeds of love
A7
I sowed them in the springtime
D
I gathered them up in the morning so soon
G D G D A7 D
While small birds sweetly sing (2x)

My garden was planted well
With flowers everywhere
But I had not the liberty to choose for myself
The flower that I love most dear, (2x)

The gardener was standing by
And I asked him to choose for me,
He chose for me the violet, the lily and the pink
But of those I refused all three. (2x)

The violet I did not like
Because it blooms too soon
The lily and the pink I really overthink
So I vowed I would wait til June. (2x)

For in June comes the red, red rose
And that is the flower for me
For ofttimes have I plucked that red rosy bush
Til I gained a willow tree. (2x)

Now the willow tree will twist
And the willow tree will twine
I wish I was lying in that young woman's arms
That once held this heart of mine (2x)

So come all ye false young girls,
Do not leave me here to complain,
The grass that has oftentimes been trampled under foot,
Give it time, it will spring up again, (2x)

There is a related American song called "Seeds of Thyme" or "Keep Your Garden Clean," which says "let no one take your thyme..." and more, dealing more simply and directly with the herbal symbolism. I think Jean Ritchie sings this.

Come all you pretty fair maids
That flourish in your prime, prime,
Beware, beware, keep your garden fair,
Let no one steal your thyme, thyme,
Let no one steal your thyme.

My thyme it is all gone away,
I cannot plant anew,
And in the place where my thyme stood
It's all grown up in rue, rue...

Stand up, stand up, you pretty hope,
Stand up and do not die,
And if your lover comes to you
Pick up your wings and fly...

The pink it is a pretty flower,
But it will bud too soon,
I'll have a posy of my own,
I'm sure 'twill wait til June...

In June comes in the primrose flower,
But it is not for me, me,
I will pull up my primrose flower
And plant a willow tree,

Green willow, green willow,
With sorrow mixed among,
To show to all the wide world,
I loved a false young man.

Lydia Vickers used to sing a non-traditional verse that went:

For woman is a branch-ed tree,
And man's a singing wynd,
And from her branches carelessly
He'll take what he can find...

Pretty far above the ground for any common herb, though. And I really do think that's all I know. Sorry if the herbal mind dump got long. Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 18 May 05 - 08:31 PM

Forgot to mention:

Evelyn K. Wells in The Ballad Tree theorizes that "parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme" may once have been an herb charm.

I doubt this. Sounds like cookery to me. My belief is that the male plaintiff in the case is trying to convey that, not only must the lady be able to make a cambric shirt without stitching or needlework (extruded rayon, maybe?) and do all those other marvelous things, she also had better be able to spice her meat properly---no mean accomplishment before refrigeration, when spices had to do double duty in concealing the taste of meat that was "off."

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 18 May 05 - 08:27 PM

Snuffy, I think you're right about the "doo," good catch. Malcolm, thanks for a much needed corrective view.

Yes, it bears repeating: we know virtually nothing for sure about magical / ritual / spell / charm survivals in song from the pagan times in which plants were so important for these purposes.

The Christianizers pretty much did a scorched-earth number on true pagan customs. It's all had to be made up fresh in the past 70 years. So if you try to google any of this, the whole mountain of recently-composed New Age stuff descends on you…fine in its way, but no good in a discussion of authentic tradition from older times.

Though I urge you, Leeneia, to scour traditional song for more of these herb and flower incantation choruses, I doubt you will find much. We're lucky to have the few we have. Most of the other such references are just riffing on flowers: "Lay the bent to the bonny broom" (a reference to withing the broom to the staff, I think, and thus sexy, yes) from "Riddles Wisely Expounded" (Child #1) and a few other ballads … "Green bush, holly and ivy" as well as "parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme" from variations of "The Elfin Knight" (Child #2) … the primrose, red rose and white lily of "The Cruel Brother" (Child #11) … "Hey the rose and the linsey/lintseed O" from "Cruel Mother" (Child #20)…Etcetera.

Evelyn K. Wells in her Ballad Tree cites a medieval precursor to "The Holly and the Ivy," without Christian references, in which the holly and the ivy battle for supremacy; the holly wins on various grounds, including having better birds to roost in its boughs...the ivy can only claim the owl. Such plant wars were big at one time IF you believe Robert Graves' thesis in his White Goddess. Many don't.

Interestingly, the cherry tree bowing to pregnant Mary in "Cherry Tree Carol" does sound like a little magic-in-song as PR for the virgin birth: the unofficial folk symbol of virginity bows to the mother-to-be.

Some versions of "Jennifer gentle" (found as a chorus in several ballads, notably versions of "Riddles Wisely Expounded," "Elfin Knight" and "Wife Wrapt in Wether's Skin" vary to "Gillyflower, gentle fair Rosemary," but are probably too recent to have any magical connotation.

My wife found the following in an article on Celtic folk customs:

"Herbs gathered on May Eve have a mystical and strong virtue for curing disease; and powerful potions are made then by the skilful herb women and fairy doctors, which no sickness can resist, chiefly of the yarrow, called in Irish "the herb of seven needs" or cures, from its many and great virtues. Divination is also practised to a great extent by means of the yarrow. The girls dance round it singing--
"Yarrow, yarrow, yarrow,
I bid thee good morrow,
And tell me before to-morrow
Who my true love shall be."

That's a divination charm---not unlike the maslenitsa (straw figure) the Russian girls long ago used to throw into the water to welcome spring and bring new love. Not unlike picking the petals and saying "He loves me, he loves me not."

Slim pickin's, though; the above is all I've come up with, and it isn't much. It's very late for survivals of this kind. Makes you wish you could get back to the English countryside a few hundred years ago and hear what they were singing then, particularly witches and herb curers.

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 May 05 - 08:00 PM

Bob, I would reckon that the "dew" is actually a "doo", which is just the Scots pronunciation of "dove"

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 May 05 - 07:13 PM

People seem to be confusing Riddles Wisely Expounded (Child 1) with The Elphin Knight (Child 2). That often happens. Essentially, the Devil belongs to the former, the elphin knight to the latter.

In the former, a knight asks a lady a series of riddles, which she solves; sometimes he is represented as the devil, sometimes not. A 15th century form, Inter diabolus et virgo, found by Child too late for inclusion in the main entry but added in an appendix, suggests that the "hero" was a devil from the start.

In the latter, which Child took to be the ancestor of both the Scarborough Fair and Acre of Land song groups, knight and lady set each other a series of impossible tasks. The earliest texts cited (broadsides, as mentioned above) describe the knight as "elphin", and this is retained in some later Scottish examples from oral currency. In most others no supernatural element is mentioned. The Devil appears in the titles given to two Scottish examples by their collectors/editors, but without any internal evidence, so these may be editorial (though Child seems to accept them at face value). Finally, Child prints a text found by Baring-Gould in Cornwall, where the man is the woman's dead lover. Although it may be authentic, there are signs of editorial intervention of the kind Baring-Gould so often engaged in, so I wouldn't base any theory on it.

Much as I admire Lucy Broadwood's work, she was far from immune from the romantic tendencies of the time. Folklore studies a century ago were full of magical herbs and Grail Knights, most of which were probably quite imaginary. This, after all, was the period when things like Wicca and Neo-Paganism were being invented. That's not to say that there may not at some point have been some significance to "herbal" refrains in some contexts; but we don't actually know that, and we don't have evidence that the people who sang the songs attached any particular meaning to the refrains on the whole (though they may have made a guess if asked).

The subject has come up before, but mostly without very much useful information being posted. Typically, people have just quoted (usually without attribution) half-digested tidbits they've heard somewhere or other, presenting them as "fact". Lay the bent to the bonny broom has been discussed at much greater length, but often at cross-purposes by people who thought it belonged to The Cruel Sister. That particular phrase is as likely to have a sexual as a magical meaning; but sex was a bit frowned on a century ago. The romantic approach was "nicer", and is still preferred today by people who rely for their information on outdated sources.

I doubt if anyone will ever come up with a definitive answer. People like Miss Broadwood and Lowry C Wimberley (Folklore in the English and Scottish Ballads, 1928; you'd enjoy that) made some very interesting guesses, but in the end that's all they were. They get repeated as received wisdom, but on the whole students of the subject are more cautious today. Without real internal evidence, all we can reasonably say is "perhaps; and perhaps not".

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 18 May 05 - 04:11 PM

BTW, leeneia, since you cited mulberry in your refrain, from the same Magickal Herbs list,

mulberry = protection, strength

---both very important if you're casting a spell, because the user of magick renders her/himself vulnerable by that very deed, on the old principle of "you live by the sword, you die by the sword." So you need what Dion Fortune described as "psychic protection."

I wonder too if the dove flying over the mulberry was a pacifying element in the spell? Some versions have the "dew" flying over the mulberry tree, whatever that may add...maybe it waters all those flowers.

Bob

PS I'm going to keep an eye out for other flower refrains and will post what I find.

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 05 - 04:08 PM

genever is "juniper" - via the dutch.

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 18 May 05 - 04:04 PM

For further research in such matters, check out the list of Magickal Herbs I drew on for the foregoing. It's at

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/1956/herbsa-g.html

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 18 May 05 - 04:01 PM

OK, I'm a little better informed now.

First of all I suspect (subject to correction from even more arcane sources) that the refrain was originally "Juniper, gentian, rosemary." (Though I also remember from somewhere a plant-related name "geniver" that I can't trace.)

The meanings are pretty pungent. In at least one version of the Victorian language of flowers:

juniper = perfect loveliness, protection.
gentian = intrinsic worth, integrity.
rosemary = remembrance, "your presence revives me."

But the Herb Magickal connotations are even more fascinating:

juniper = protection, anti-theft, love, exorcism.
gentian = love, power.
   (Four drops of a liquid infusion of gentian helps to banish doubt.)
rosemary = protection, love, lust, mental powers, exorcism,
   purification, healing, sleep, youth.

I'd say the refrain may originally have been used for a song to make a love spell, then later was picked up for the "Jennifer Gentle" / "Wife Wrapt in Sheepskin" song.

In the spell-casting connotation the refrain would mean something like: love, protection of love, banishment of all spirits counter to love, power of love, love without any doubt, sexual love, pure love, love's healing, and possibly youth everlasting.

---i,e, a pretty good formula for casting a spell over your inamorato(-a).

Similar flower refrains in other songs might bear looking at along these lines. I also think, though, that flower names trip flowingly off the tongue and make great sounding nonsense refrains too.

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 18 May 05 - 03:37 PM

Anyone know what the original phrase is that yielded "Jennifer gentle, fair rosemary?" That is to say, what flowers were originally listed?

If jennifer = gentian, what does "gentle" equal?

My guess is that jennifer = ??? and gentle = gentian.

Going off to do some research on this, will post further if I turn up anything.

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 05 - 09:40 AM

Contemplator has this to say about the 'Elfin Knight':

This ballad first appeared as "A proper new ballad entitled The Wind hath blown my Plaid away, or A Discourse betwixt a young Woman and the Elphin Knight." This was a black-letter ballad (broadside) that was printed circa 1670. In later variants the elfin knight is replaced by the devil

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 May 05 - 09:29 AM

Is "the Elfin Knight" is Devil himself, or were there any number of elfin knights about during the middle ages? Does anyone know?

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 05 - 09:18 AM

I thought the name Jennifer was related to 'juniper' - with connections involving a different kind of spirit - hic.

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 May 05 - 09:02 AM

The singing of ballads has been going on for so long that there are probably several reasons for nonsense refrains. I like these:

1. Magical protection, as discussed above.

2. Giving the listeners something to sing so they can have more fun.

3. The poem was put to an existing tune which was too long, so the vocables are put in to use up space.

4. To imitate the sound of an instrument.

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: Emma B
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:36 PM

BTW Lucy Broadwood stated that "Both abroad and in the British Isles one meets still with so many instances of plants being used as charms against demons,that I venture to suggest that these "plant-burdens", otherwise so nonsensical, are the survival of an incantation used against the demon suitor..........
.....from earliest times, the herbs or symbols efficacious against the evil eye and spirits, are also invariably used on the graves of the dead, or during the laying of the dead to rest"
Her analysis of the plantlore in the above ballads is based upon Friend's "Flowers and Flower Lore" -

Rosemary, called Alicrum or "Elfin Plant" in Spain and Portugal is worn there against the evil eye and burnt against witches in Devonshire

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: Emma B
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:08 PM

Child observes that riddlecraft is practised by a number of preternatural beings. In "Riddles Wisely Expounded" and in some versions of "The Elfin Knight" (the origin of Scarborough Fair presumably) the riddle-monger is the Devil.

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 17 May 05 - 11:27 AM

?? I may have missed it but I had never heard that the devil was in "Scarborough fair" at all.

MANY of the old ballads have refrains and repeating burden lines regardless of topic.

This sounds to me as much urban legand as that the "fa la la's" of some of the older songs were to replace the "dirty bits"

Subject: RE: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 17 May 05 - 11:21 AM

Some people think the refrain to Riddles Wisely Expounded "lay the bent to the bonny broom" is about just that, but does seem pretty unlikley.

Subject: Origins: magic flower refrains
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 May 05 - 09:17 AM

Perhaps there's been a thread on this topic before, but if so, I wouldn't know how to find it. Well then,

Recently someone asked for the lyrics of a song with the words "jennifer, jenny, rosemary" in it.

To back up, I my reading about old ballads I've learned that if the plot of a ballad involved the supernatural (especially the Devil), then there was often a refrain between verses. This refrain would list the names of magical plants to protect the singer from harm by the supernatural beings.

An example is "parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme" as made famous by Simon and Garfunkle in "Scarborough Fair." For though these herbs seem like ordinary kitchen ingredients to us, to the old timers, they seemed magic. Rosemary, which has fascinating flavor and the name of the mother of God in it, was good in two ways at once.

In case you have never paid close attention to Scarborough Fair, the character doing most of the talking is the Devil.

As for the word "jennifer" in a refrain, it is a corruption of "gentian." Gentian flowers, with their incredibly brilliant blue color, were thought magical too. I know a song involving the Devil which has the refrain

Jennifer gentle and rosemarie
The dove flies over the mulberry tree.

Anybody know any others?