How can we Help Max? (Moderated)

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:36 AM

This thread is precisely for discussions of how we raise money. Maggie's comments are well thought out and very good, as are a number of others.

The point was to get input, we got it, now it is time to close the thread. Thanks everyone for participating. Max and I had a discussion today, we will have more. For the time being, those that can contribute a few quid, please do so.

Ultimately this comes down to a narrow focus, and that is to make sure that we have enough to keep the lights on. As I said before, anything beyond that is Max's call and not something to be done in committee. Max never asked us to do that.

Great thread, and I appreciate the mostly postive comments.

I will tabulate and talk and get back with you.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 May 06 - 11:34 PM

whatever anyone says about their own idea or someone else's

But they'll never have the last word, will they?

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:41 PM

Fortunatley (for us all), Max is not only a genius but a man possessed of such vision and positive-minded wisdom that, whatever anyone says about their own idea or someone else's-- HE will read and digest ALL the input for himself. Most likely he will come to a better approach than anything we've sketched out, as he mulls the lot.

~Susan

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 06 - 06:34 PM

" if I'm out of line for suggesting them"

The whole POINT of this thread is for discussing suggestions.... At least that seems to be the best way to handle it to my mind

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 May 06 - 06:09 PM

A Mudcat CD? Isn't there a set of 5? All good stuff, too...maybe we need to advertise them more. What about one of those (individual CDs, not the set) for contributions at/above a specific level?

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 May 06 - 04:31 PM

I'm glad to know Max has at least taken in some of the content here.

There is an emotional hump that I've been trying to get some of you to look over the top of, and it doesn't seem to have worked for more than just a couple. Please, spaw and others, stop qualifying MY remarks with "Max has to decide these things" as if I'm out of line for suggesting them, then going back to the Andy Hardy stuff. I know Max has to make these decisions, but if someone doesn't suggest it, he might not realize what a good idea it can be.

What I suggested isn't that hard, isn't that expensive, and it gives Max a heckuva lot more protection than he has now. I didn't mention the IRS stuff that M.Ted described, but that was list of things to consider at a future point in time. Mudcat can operate exactly the same way as it does now, except the clones become board members. Big deal.

Consider this: someone decides they have been libeled here so they sue Mudcat as the vehicle of their humiliation or hardship. (Remember the discord that Max was concerned about in his first State of the Union post? And the rapid exit thereafter of Martin Gibson?) Max IS Mudcat, home and car and bank account and all. Incorporation simply allows him on paper to separate his personal property and business from his Mudcat property and business, and he doesn't lose his house if he loses a lawsuit. That seems like an extreme example, but look all of the lame and wacko lawsuits out there in the world. And look at some of our more colorful regulars, past and present, and tell me you think that could never happen.

I don't want to keep building possible scenarios, and I don't want to have to keep defending my opinion that this would be a good idea. Let it stand, make your own separate suggestions, but don't keep shooting down this one as if it isn't reasonable or well-considered, because that just isn't true. If you're not emotionally ready for a change at Mudcat, then say so, or acknowledge it to yourself and plan your next bake sale. But Mudcat is how old? More than 10 years old? In my considered opinion, it's time to move on to the next level.

My best wishes to Max, whatever he decides to do: I respect his work and open-minded tolerance immensely. Even choosing to do nothing is still a choice. Whatever he does, I'll continue to be interested in Mudcat.

SRS

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 06 - 04:17 PM

It's a real man, knows his limits....

:-)

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Rasener
Date: 17 May 06 - 03:48 PM

Well from the UK side, you put a track on the US CD Jerry LOL :-)

Time to get that pencil working away Clinton :-)

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 06 - 03:41 PM

The CD idea makes me wish I was a songwriter.....

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Rasener
Date: 17 May 06 - 03:16 PM

Yes indeed Richard.
However I don't think its that difficult to promote or distribute, if set up properly. Surely we have the expetise on Mudcat to handle all of that.

Take just as an example this website in the UK Woven Wheat Whispers They could pay the royalties direct to Mudcat.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 May 06 - 03:13 PM

Count me in for a track of the U.S. side.. That is, unless the U.S. wants to win... :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 May 06 - 03:09 PM

I think a CD might be very good - look at the success Clive Lever "WildRover" has had in raising money for BCAB (the British Computer Association of the Blind) with the "Guide Cats for the Blind" CDs - thanks to Les Barker's generosity with his poems and the input of many talented performers and the distribution of the CD on a semi-pro-bono basis by Richard Ellin.

Distribution and promotion are the big parts of that jigsaw, but content will be important too.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Rasener
Date: 17 May 06 - 02:59 PM

May I add my two penneth (UK)

This website is about music, and the majority of the members are singers/musicians who are songwriters.

I started a project in the uk to make a CD for charity and asked Lincolnshire performers to donate a song off one of their CD, s that could be copied and mastered on a CD, and then sold to the general public. It made over £1500. see following link

http://www.marketrasenfolkclub.f2s.com/yellowbellies_cd_review.htm

It was not difficult to do and not expensive either. There are enough Mudcat members to ensure a quality CD that could be sold by Mudcat who retain all the profits.

Don't say it can't be done, because I know different.

Now my suggestion is

The US produce a CD and the Uk produce a CD of the finest and best songs that each country have to offer from Mudcat members.
This could be done once a year, and would make a lot of money.

I don't want to hear knockers who might suggest that it is too difficult and not possible. If I could do it, with no musical ability and no knoweledge of the folk scene, surely mudcat members can do it.

I am certainly willing to chair and organise the UK side of things.

We could then see who produces the best music - USA or UK :-)

The UK would win hands down :-)

Oh yes they would!!!!!

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 May 06 - 02:58 PM

Good, Max, looking forward to it.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 May 06 - 02:25 PM

Max,

Re: I will be posting another thread very soon with some decisions I have made and some specifics and some news and views. Stay tuned.

Looking forward to it, and will stay tuned. Hooking up the tuner now.... ah, there was one string wound too tight. All better now.

~Autoharp Zing!

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: MMario
Date: 17 May 06 - 02:20 PM

Thanks max.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Max
Date: 17 May 06 - 02:05 PM

Thank you all for pondering all this. I'll have to reread it to really absorb all of it, but I get the general idea.

Money is not really that big of a deal. We do fine if I pop up about twice a year and make a comment about funds. I get a lot of flack for it, but it covers the bills.

Thank you to everyone that made a contribution, now and ever before. My beer fridge is doing great.

You will notice that money was merely one of the many items that I discussed in the State of the Union thread, yet a very high percentage of responses focused on that.

Personally, I am far, far more interested in the other concepts that I addressed. I realize that much of it falls upon me, and much of it is more behavioral than specific, but I feel it's worth the effort.

I will be posting another thread very soon with some decisions I have made and some specifics and some news and views. Stay tuned.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: open mike
Date: 17 May 06 - 01:57 PM

sing out! magazine has just contacted our folk society
to link up in partnership with them...and for any members
who join their organization, they have a profit sharing
plan.

here are excerpts from their message to us:

Kyle from Sing Out! magazine here. I'd like to open a dialog with you about having the Butte Folk Music Society as a partner in our 2006
"In Harmony" membership campaign. The program will benefit both our organizations!

The "In Harmony" campaign is designed to connect SO! with local folk music organizations across the country. We are asking your help in reaching potential readers in your organization. Enrollment in the campaign is free. For each Sing Out! subscription that comes through your organization, we are donating 20% of the list price to your org. That 20% can also be used as a discount to your members for their SO! subscription -- the choice is yours!

Each organization is also enrolled in a contest --- those orgs that sign up the most SO! subscriptions, can win prizes that include cases of Rise Up Singing, CDs, magazine advertising space and more!

We know there are folk fans out there that would be interested in Sing Out! and hope that we can help your organization while reaching those folkies.

I look forward to hearing from you on this and hope our two orgs can work together. If you need more information, I can send you details on all aspects of the campaign.

Best wishes,
___________________________
Kyle Christensen / Sing Out!
P.O. Box 5460 (for UPS: 512 E. 4th St.)
Bethlehem, PA 18015-0460
Ph: 610-865-5366 x201
Fx: 610-865-5129
E-mail: [e-mail]
Web: www.singout.org



(Rise Up Singing is THE songbook that folkies often refer to
as the folk song "bible" and it would be a good organization to
link up with....Sing Out! is a great publication too {hence the "!"})

and here is more info they sent us..

they have a 6 page PDF file describing the promotional program.
Just contact Kyle if you want to plug in to this...

it could be of mutual benefit and they might want to link
up with us...it would be a perfect partnership in my opinion.

another Pennsylvania connection....

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: MMario
Date: 17 May 06 - 01:35 PM

Which in many ways means that a semi-annual "nag-a-thon" is in some ways the best way to go; with people donating directly to the mudcat.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 May 06 - 01:34 PM

Jerry, if you go back and read the thread you will find that is precisely what I have been saying. Agreed. I am going to let this run through the day, and then begin the process of compiling the results, talking with Max, and presenting a plan.

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 May 06 - 01:27 PM

Hey, Mick: The Simpler The Better. The great thing about Mudcat is that when someone starts a thread it generates a lot of enthusiasm and the thread eventually is so sprawling that it's easy to lose sight of the original intent. From where I sit, the most conspicuous thing about Max is how determinedly inconspicuous he is. We can come up every idea in the book, but with so little imput from him, we're all guessing about what he's looking for, other than some help to pay the bills. I haven't seen any indication that he's looking to create a structure substantially different than what Mudcat is right now. I'd like to stay focused on a regular, consistent format to keep enough flowing in to Max to run Mudcat the way he wants to.

Jerry

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 May 06 - 01:23 PM

First off, Max can easily show a loss no matter how good a job we do at fundraising. Once he factors in his time, plus associated costs, he if fine. Again, that is his concern. And your comment simply gives credence to the idea of keeping this very basic. We need to set a goal, set a timetable, setup a methodology to say thank you, and keep folks apprised of the financial status and how their money is used.

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 06 - 01:13 PM

What Mr. Ted said!

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 May 06 - 01:12 PM

Without wanting to put too fine a point on it, I want to put forward the idea that "fundraising" without actually having a legally constituted non-profit organization, while not necessarily illegal, can have some very complicated legal ramifications. For instance, in Michigan(since someone posted a link to Senator Stabenow's website) even if the organization you are soliciting donations for is a non-profit--if you raise more than $8000 in a year, you must have a lisense.

I am not sure how the law (and the IRS) view ongoing fundraising for Max--but all involved in it should make it a point of finding out, before soliciting money. When you collect money for Mudcat, , the way that it is legally constituted will very much become your business--whether you want it to or not--

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 May 06 - 12:30 PM

Actually, I wrote that response in a bit of a hurry to get to a softball game. I should say, and I thought my later posting made clear, that I don't believe we should get involved with how Max legally constitutes The Mudcat. It is his business, not ours. If he wants a 501(3)(C) then I want it. If he wants to be "kitchen table", then I want it. He created this, and we use it. If he asks for my advice, I will give it. But that is not what this thread is about. Max hasn't asked us to convene a committee on the formal organization of Mudcat. He has expressed frustration at keeping the bills paid so he can keep it going. I just believe, and this is my opinion, that we are over thinking this. My opinion is that what should come of our discussion is simply a plan for fundraising. The questions should be kept simple. What forms are best to insure a steady stream of money that will take care of the monthly costs, the maintenance and upgrade of necessary hardware, etc. I made comments earlier about compensating Max and Jeff for the work they do. That may have just been wishful thinking, thinking out loud, on my part.

I have received numerous PM's and emails. Everyone is very supportive, some are angling for what they perceive as position. If someone is looking to create a hierarchy, they should look elsewhere. The owner and founder of the site has not indicated anywhere that that is his intention. He is simply looking to fund the place that we have all come to love. I think the UK'ers have the right beginning, but we need to do it on a more consistently stable basis. And we have some great ideas to create a menu of options. Monthly deductions, credit card through Camsco, twice annual drives. Please keep the brainstorming up, so we can come up with the best, most efficient, and most accountable method.

The one area that I am adamant about, if I am to be involved. Every person that donates money, time, or product needs to be thanked in a meaningful way. I have seen some incredibly generous things done to support The Mudcat. I want all to know that I appreciate more than I can express, your helping to perpetuate this place that has given me so much.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 06 - 12:10 PM

One thought to keep in mind SRS is that anything beyond the very basics is going to require input from Max as well as his agreement. I've been around here more than a day or two and I have to say that either of those is not necessarily a "given." Like the rest of us (hopefully), Max has a life outside of the 'Cat and he can't always do what he might really want to do here.

I'm personally big on the "Friends of Mudcat" idea here in the US as well because it is something we can do and will help. You, me, Mick, Patty Clink, and 101 Estonian hat blockers may want and desire a greater future for the 'Cat but only Max can make that decision. Maybe the Andy Hardy route is wrong, amteurish, and not enough......but it seems to me it is the only way at this point to have any effect. Doing it on a regular, non-emergency basis as I said before would be very preferable to these emergency red flag things.

As to Rustic's question re: the Google ads, Check This Post for the original details from Max.

Spaw

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 May 06 - 11:24 AM

Patty, relax, that wasn't aim exclusively, or even generally, at you, nor was it meant in a derogatory manner. I protested your dismissive attitude toward an idea, rather than simply making your own point without diminishing someone else's. The saying used was succinct because sometimes adults talk like that. I could have said "Mudcat is at a crossroads, where some would keep it where it is now, but others would like to see it realize its potential and take a lot of pressure off of Max at the same time." Still relatively simple, but the vernacular was distinctly to the point.

SRS

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: John Routledge
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:58 AM

A new thread titled "Friends of Mucat(UK)-The Way Forward" will be started at the end of this month

Sorry that I can't do it sooner.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:24 AM

There are grants available to accountable non-profit corporations. Some of the grant money can be used for salary purposes also (stipend). Please don't overlook SRS and jimmyt's idea. Kindly consider it in the overall final analysis.

http://www.senate.gov/~stabenow/services/grants.htm

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Grab
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:16 AM

RusticRebel's question is a good one. Anyone know what we need to do to maximise Google income? Just clicking links?

Also, can we not have more links to other places that'll contribute per-click or per purchase? Reiterating, Mudcat doesn't have a link to Amazon.co.uk, so UK Mudcatters can't use their Amazon purchases to help the Mudcat. If Elderly would be prepared to do a similar scheme to Amazon (say, donate 1% of every purchase if you mention Mudcat), that would presumably help too. Or any other music stores.

Any music stores who'd be prepared to help in exchange for a small banner ad? The Musical Instrument Maker's Forum supports itself via ads from luthery companies and wood suppliers. The Elderly linkup sounds like a good plan. Or 12th Fret, or anyone else. So long as there are *never* popup ads, that's fine by me.

Graham.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:12 AM

I don't appreciate being responded to with 'shit or get off the pot'. I was expressing some ideas, which is what I thought this thread was. My premise was that IF Max wanted to place himself in a non-profit corporation and get all organized and seek formal donations, he probably would have done so by now over these several years. Evidently he prefers to run off the kitchen table and keep things casual. Therefore, one OPTION would be to form a group which does get organized and demands none of Max's time or soul to administer.

I agree with Mick and others that the simplest thing to do is simply have periodic funding appeals, and keep things as they are. However, for those who want want more accountability and Greater Things, then someone who actually wants to run an organization is going to have to run one.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 May 06 - 09:20 AM

I agree, SRS, that incorporation as a 501 C 3 non-profit organisation can really impact the fundraising. It is cheap to do and may have ramifications as time gose on that are beneficial to the website.   jimmyt

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 May 06 - 11:09 PM

Since this is a brainstorming session I've laid out my vision of a Mudcat future to the extent practical in an environment where a lot of ideas are being floated.

The tax advantages I spoke of are obviously those in the Mudcat home country. Donors from outside would get an extra big "thank-you" and are to be commended for their good works because I don't see any way that there would be a donation benefit elsewhere (unless it became an international corporation--and that's rushing things just a tad). :)

SRS

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:38 PM

We aren't discussing what changes Max would make to the Mudcat, my friend. We are talking about how we, as a community are going to raise money to support the Mudcat. I agree that how successful we are on an ongoing basis will be directly impacted by the product Max presents (which is why I didn't delete this post) but we are looking for a good starting place.

I don't want you to misconstrue the directness of my response. I appreciate your question, but I really want to keep this focused on methods of making sure Max doesn't have to "come begging" because we all forget that it takes money to make this work. He shouldn't have to worry about how to pay for something we all use. Hopefully we will come out of this process with a plan which addresses everyone's concerns, and can be consistently applied. Thanks for the observation, but at this stage of the process how Max views it isn't as important as making sure that those who want to help support this place have a dependable, verifiable, and accountable way of doing so.

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:28 PM

One question I have is this: What would be Max's druthers? That is, how would Max envision the Mudcat with a new hairdo, and what would it take to achieve that?

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:57 PM

It will be a lot easier to get $20 each from five hundred people than $2 each from 5000-and the least hassle is to get two people to give $5000 each--Lesson One is that charitable organizations are not five and ten cent stores.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:18 PM

And if there were 50,000 people that'd only be 20 cents each, wouldn't it? But it might get a wee bit crowded.

I think there is an upward limit for any kind of social group. Get too big and it turns into another type of group. A folk club where 20 or 30 people get together and exchange music is a totally different animal from one where an audience of 1000 listens to a guest performer. The latter is a better way of making money (or losing money). But the former is probably a better way of making music and making friends.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:05 PM

"But, having said that, is increasing the traffic really a priority? Presumably more users will put more stress on the system, when we REALLY want to do is secure what we have, with development as a second-stage ambition?"


Simply put, it's the Woolworth principle applied to fundraising rather than sales.

1. You have 500 people and need to raise $10000.........$20 each
2. You have 5000 people and need to raise $10000........$2 each

Which is more likely to succeed?

Over time, Mudcat has grown and will continue to grow. Increased awareness of the DT resource, and the inevitable increase in membership that will follow, will mean more potential contributors, which should lead to the money for necessary upgrades being available before the need to upgrade becomes critical.

Don T.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:02 PM

Anyone feel like producing some Mudcat greeting cards? Christmas, Birthday, New Home....

And there's the traditional folk club standby, the raffle, which ought to form part of any public events.

And the odd dance might be a good way of using the musical resources Mudcatters should be capable of assembling in some places; and being more interactive than concerts perhaps they are more in keeping with the Mudcat style. (Maybe you could say the same about prize-fighting, but I'm not suggesting that just yet.)

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:00 PM

"some legal fees to become incorporated, but once that is achieved there are donation benefits for all"

Don't assume that Aussie catters will get tax benefits for donating. Not wishing to be unduly negative, just a heads up.

The thermometer graphic requires FAR more work than just ONE pretty picture!

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:35 PM

Please help me to understand the google ads. Max makes money off of every hit from here?
If that is so-I will visit a google site or more when I am here. Does anyone know how this works? Would this help in anyway to make extra bucks?

Another question- Did the Mudcat CD's make money? Was it a lot of trouble and work to get them made? If not- Let's start another set or addition to the ones going. I missed out the first time and would love to get involved in one of those. There are so many new people here that might also like to be involved.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:16 PM

For immediate funds:
I once raised over $1000 in two weeks doing the following: everyone has a jar or a cup somewhere where they drop the day's/week's change. No wants to roll the pennies. We had a few drop points for pennies and got a bank to agree to let us automatically roll them.

The school had 200 children. Their parents and their neighbors contributed. It was one of those fundraisers where everyone, even the unemployed, could participate.

International coordination presents a challenge but it is doable.

SINS

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:14 PM

How about the 100th poster in each and every thread having to pay a fiver for the priviledge?

siân

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:05 PM

Pretty much my feelings, Maggie. It is my feeling that we are over thinking a bit. This is why I made the comment that what we are doing isn't really related to what Max may or may not do to make a profit. We can get all fancy and fail but look good doing it, or we can just follow the principles of KISS (shut up, Spaw, I am not talking about the band) and come up with a good, friendly way to raise funds on a regular basis to keep a site going that we have come to care greatly for. If Max wants to move the ads up top, fine. If he wants to sell advert's, fine, that is up to him. The idea of incorporating, while it may have merit, is beyond what we should do, or even have the power to do. I say this with great respect, and am willing to discuss it further. Please accept these comments as just my opinion, and offered with respect for the discussion.

It seems to me that the elements are accountability for the goals, accountability for how the funds are used, courtesy of an acknowledgement for the donation, and every cycle of fundraising begins with a recounting of how the last cycle went, and were we are now.

Just my opinions, and I am thinking on the fly here. Must get to a softball game with a little girl.

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: gnu
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:59 PM

"I do feel that membership should have its advantages."

Although this topic is not in keeping with the purpose of this thread, in the true sense, if "perks" are to be a part of the fund raising discussion, here's my two cents.

Nope. Not here. Forgive me if I am overstepping my interpretation boundaries, but, it seems to me that Max has allowed a near "free for all" forum. Benefits for pay just don't seem to add up. And, just don't seem right to me, in this community. I recall Big Mick saying something like, "Privileges should not depend on the amount of money you have." Forgive me Mick if I didn't get that quite right.

Other than a pat on the back or a shout out, I think membership already has its advantages.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:59 PM

Nice one SRS!

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:51 PM

There are no real advantages for an individual to incorporate, it mostly adds paperwork.

The vehicle needed might be to follow the lead of the UK and form a permanent Friends of Mudcat U.S. It could be set up either as a nonprofit corporation or foundation, either of which then makes grants to Max's operation (and/or to the progation of folk music in any other way, for that matter--the vehicle could run a festival or print a book or make other grants, etc.) Leave the Mudcat operation to be done the way Max prefers, just have a more organized way for friends to contribute funds. Advantage to the 501 or foundation is it makes it easier to leave legacy gifts when we pass on to the great hootenanny in the sky.

I beg to differ, and hope Big Mick sees fit to leave this post in place, because it is important.


We're talking about a great web organization that we understand and derive personal and professional benefit from. It could be much larger, smoother, more sophisticated in its offerings, and given real resources, Max could do great things beyond the shoestring operation it is now. How can you set up a 501(c)(3) to support a guy who has computers in his house that has a virtual membership that may or may not be quantifiable? Imagine what happens to that Friends corporation if something happens to Max's operation--Friends groups are put in place to support stable or protected entities. It would be better to pull up your socks and support Max by letting him incorporate and protect himself instead of setting up a Friends group, that given the number of malcontents we have around here, could hijack and bankrupt Mudcat by not turning over funds. . . you see my drift? Pardon my bluntness, but this is "shit or get off the pot"--either fund Max in a way where he has control and some security, or don't do it at all.

There are many (I emphasize again--MANY) corporations in the U.S. alone who have giving programs. Companies experience great tax advantages by putting money into accounts for charitable and educational purposes and then finding various ways to choose who receives it and how much, how often, etc. People write grants to get those dollars, and as Mudcat, Inc., someone could write grants to support the organization.

None of those big corporations are going to give substantial HELPFUL MEANINGFUL dollars to a guy who runs a web site from his dining room table. Unless they're part of the Mudcat culture they aren't going to understand how important the work is here. And even if they are, it's difficult to justify what looks like a kind of odd grant to a guy with computers limping along in his dining room or in the basement next to the washer and dryer.

This group needs to understand that the "let's put on a show" approach of Andy Hardy doesn't work today (this was mentioned before by someone else--not intended to be derogatory, but to illustrate a certain naivete towards fund-raising). Mudcat is an important site, and so far it has stayed under the radar for whatever reason. But it may have reached a critical mass where either it jumps to the next level to survive or it fades away. (Pardon the mixed metaphors--technically speaking, if it were "critical mass," it would blow to bits. I hope that doesn't happen!)

SRS

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:43 PM

The advantages of creating a non-profit, which would likely be a 501(c)(3) private foundation, would include tax exemptions for contributions to Mudcat, eligibility for public and private grants, and   shielding Max from tax obligations related to Mudcat revenues--there are a large number of problems that can result, down the line, when significant amounts of money have been raised and paid out when there is no formal organization--$3000-$5000 per year may not seem like a lot of money, but over time, it can add up--

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:43 PM

"I do feel that membership should have its advantages."

Surely.... other message boards only let members post.... Some only let members start new threads... Some have a members only posting section... some grant contributing members custom avatars or sig files or an expanded 'membership profile'... Some give members further discounts or freebies on web-site merchandise (T-shirts, coffee mugs, bumper stickers.... all that cafepress.com kinda crap)

Folkalley.com, for posting their banner sent me a WHACK of stickers, static clings, temp-tattoos, buttons and a t-shirt.... Just for putting their banner on my site....

Another way to support.... URL exchange.... I'd put a banner to Mudcat on my site, if Mudcat would put a banner to mine here.... (The more attention, the better, right)

That mutual support certainly adds to the sense of 'community' some here seem so keen on creating

"so that we need not worry about the lights going out"
Most folkies I've seen look their best in total darkness! LOL

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:38 PM

I think my first message didnt get sent and I don
t have time to check...but I will start another thread too about why don't we sell each other used cds that we don't need any more..I can start with a brand new, heard once Vind du Nord or some such great group..Quebecois...very wonderful...I am in the market for a few gently used CDs to augment my parse collection...mostly Irish need apply...we could send the money directly to Max or a treasurer. Oh maybe someone already thought of this but I don't have time to read through right now. mg---------------------------

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:33 PM

There are no real advantages for an individual to incorporate, it mostly adds paperwork.

The vehicle needed might be to follow the lead of the UK and form a permanent Friends of Mudcat U.S.   It could be set up either as a nonprofit corporation or foundation, either of which then makes grants to Max's operation (and/or to the progation of folk music in any other way, for that matter--the vehicle could run a festival or print a book or make other grants, etc.) Leave the Mudcat operation to be done the way Max prefers, just have a more organized way for friends to contribute funds. Advantage to the 501 or foundation is it makes it easier to leave legacy gifts when we pass on to the great hootenanny in the sky.

I love the barometer idea too, is there a graphics artist who could provide a freshly painted one weekly or whatever?

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:23 PM

Yep, those are issues for Max to deal with.

Folks, the way I see this is the simpler the better. It is The Mudcat, it doesn't have a huge infrastructure, it is bound by a sense of community (or should be), and as such we simply want to provide the base amount for operating expenses, equipment and software upgrades as needed, so that we need not worry about the lights going out.

It seems to me that this number isn't based on whatever Max chooses to do to make it profitable. It is about finding a value based number and going for that average. To me that number seems to be about $15 to $30 USD per year. But that is my opinion and we will see how that turns out. I do feel that membership should have its advantages. What those should be remains up to Max, but suggestions should be made.

More fodder for the discussion.

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:15 PM

"This is a very disturbing trend."

Live in fear Eddy!

LOL

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:12 PM

The banjo neck filling up is fine for a one-time fund-raising effort, but each month, the operating costs for that month need to be subtracted, to reflect the fact that the Mudcat operating funds need continual replenishment.

One site I visit occasionally has an interesting concept; it keeps a running tab of how much it costs to run the site against how much has been collected in the past week/month/whatever period. You can see this at the opening page of http://www.virtualcantor.com/, where there's a section called "Finances:"

"Utilization of the Virtual Cantor has grown tremendously. The costs for equipment and hosting continue to mount. In the spirit of transparency, a cumulative sum is now shown below along with the visit counter of unique individuals who have visited the Virtual Cantor site. If you have found value in the site, please consider making a donation to help defray the ongoing costs. The balance will be updated weekly.

Blessings of peace, health and happiness to all."

Offered as food for thought in terms of conceiving fund raising as a long-term continual effort, rather than a sporadic burst of energy.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: CET
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:08 PM

Even worse than agreeing with Clinton Hammond, I find myself on common ground with that xenophobic jerk of a former member who hates Mudcat so much that he won't go away. I am comforted by the fact that Catspaw seems to be on the same wavelength.

There has to be systematic accounting for income and expenses. Any member of Mudcat should be entitled to see this. I suspect that means incorporation. Max should get some legal advice on this. That makes it sound like I don't trust Max. I do, implicitly. I've met the man and I've got to know him from the Cat as well. However, regular funding requires proper accounting and acknowledgment.

I am also forced to agree that blocking certain people's IP is not the answer to Martin Gibson and his ilk(or rather is only a partial answer, and one to be used as a last resort). We should have simple rules of conduct that would permit heated debate but not the poisonous attacks that MG indulged in. Anyone who transgressed should be bounced, and his or her posts deleted. I respect Joe and the clones for the work they do, but MG should have been thrown out years ago. Democracy is fine, but it does not mean tolerating the intolerable. Perhaps this means that for certain threads at least, only members could post. Computer games have web forums for gamers to discuss the game and ask questions, but only members are allowed to post anything.

Now that I think about it, Clinton Hammond has said more than one sensible thing on this thread. This is a very disturbing trend.

Edmund

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:02 PM

SRS briefly discussed incorporation earlier, and such business issues are Max's, of course, as long as Mudcat remains a sole proprietership operation. I don't know a lot about taxes in the UK, Canada, Oz or elsewhere...and I wish I didn't have to deal with them in the US...but a lot of regular Mudcatters are in the US and so, of course, is Max. If he decides to pursue this, it is only one step further to become incorporated and become certified as an IRS 501(3)(c) organization. (More here) That way, US contributors can get a tax break on donations...probably not important to anyone but jimmyt, but every little bit helps.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:32 PM

There are strategies from that I can share if a FR board forms.


Doesn't make much sense to wait. We are developing the ideas now, and we will come to a consensus as to how to do it. I would happily receive such ideas via PM or in the thread. Then we can include them into the suggested method that we present in this or another thread.

I expect we will set a timetable similar to the one presented by Susan in an earlier thread, and it will be well known to all.

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:27 PM

"Has anyone ever contacted Elderly and/or others whose shops benefit us and we buy from them? Not for ads-- maybe they would donate gift certs and/or gear to our Auction or a raffle at the designated time of year"

Especially if it was a gift card that could be used by ANYONE who won it, through their web site!!

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: gnu
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:23 PM

Yeah... the last calendar I bought was about four or five years ago. Still can't look at it, but it did make some money.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:20 PM

What DID ever happen to the calendar tradition? Can we do a new one? I currently play no instrument, and only rarely sing, so I ain't posing for nothin'. But I'd sure buy one!

Dani

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:18 PM

Has anyone ever contacted Elderly and/or others whose shops benefit us and we buy from them? Not for ads-- maybe they would donate gift certs and/or gear to our Auction or a raffle at the designated time of year. If this were done far enough in advance, things like the Getaway could be places to get the word out or sell some raffle tix. There could be a raffle chairperson to do this, to send out numbered tix, and to take in the money generated along with any unsold raffle tix. If it caught on with businesses, it could become, even, a monthly raffle.

----------------------

Our local Rotary club, Men's Chorus, fire halls and other places do a 50/50 raffle. The prize for trhe winner is half the raffle proceeds. It's done with cheap rolls of numbered tix, sold by org members as they circulate through a larger FR. Maybe FSGW would OK one at Getaway.

----------------------

Our Men's Chorus has an annual Pizza Party at our church. The local pizzerias gfive them a non-profit price on sheet pizzas, the people buy a ticket to attend for the free (to them) pizza and soda, there are door prizes raffled off every hour, which have been doiated by local merchants.

----------------------

I raised a BOATLOAD of bucks several years in a row for a local nonprofit, and not all of it was direct mail (which would not be OK to do here). There are strategies from that I can share if a FR board forms.

----------------------

Challenge Gifts work well on TV and radio, where someone offers to donate a large amount IF the "callers" (posters, here) pony up the matching amount. How it works-- large donor says "I'll give X by myself if you-all will kick in enough among you to equal it by [date]."

----------------------

Match Gifts are cool too, where a donotr makes a commitment to match gifts up to sa stated total amount.

-----------------------

Some of what makes FR work on a large scale is linking up the things already working, in such a way that the org gets a much bigger bang for its buck. I've seen genius approaches in that manner, right here in this poor county. Man, can these orgs here squeeze and make you LIKE it!

IMO the challenge to us is NOT "how" to raise bucks per se-- people in all orgs do it all the time-- but how to adapt effective approaches (A) within Mudcat cultural norms and (B) with modems instead of face-to-face, snail mail, or telephone approaches.

Lesson One is, we cannot be afraid to ask for money. We have to be eager to let people know that they can be part of a good thing, instead of "crying poor." BAD news giving works short-term. GOOD news giving works sustainably, long-term.

~Susan

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:15 PM

Some people are gnu..........In your case, uh, well.................you're doing something for sure...........sorta' ..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: gnu
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:04 PM

Spaw could ask a question about methane use in fueling auto engines. Or is that another ethane? Well, maybe about farts.

I could ask a question about North American fauna. About nature... very yuppie, no? Say, I could post pics of various types of shit at varying times of the year. Whoever could correctly ID the animals and the times of year would win the "50/50" and win the title of "Shit Disturber of the Year".

I know, I know... crappy suggestion. But, we are brainstorming, right?

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:36 PM

"I deleted the debate posts."
Might I also suggest Mick, that if there are things you feel you need to delete, you tell the person who posted it, in an effort to be clear and concise and to keep people from reposting over and over and over....

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: gnu
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:32 PM

A contest.... participants pledge a specified amount. A question is asked. Maybe it's a music question, a hockey question, whatever. The first correct answer get half and the Café gets half.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:28 PM

I deleted the debate posts. I stated early on that the purpose of this thread is strictly contained to a discussion of how we are going to conduct fundraising. I said later that it was not a debate as to whether we need it. You may use unmoderated threads for that. But we will not get sidetracked from the discussion of what we are going to try. I am now going to go back and delete all comments, including my own, that got off track. Please feel free to offer the suggestions that will help us to arrive at the method that the majority of posters to the other thread said was needed. I will examine each post I am deleting for suggestions that can be useful to the discussion. Those will be left in.

The object of the thread is to arrive at as near a consensus as possible so that regular fundraising, done consistently and with guidelines, with stated goals, with procedures for acknowledgement of donations, and with accountability for the use of the funds, is done. Look at it as the same fundraising that is done by NPR here in the States, or the University stations like CIUT in Canada.

The deletions are not intended to limit debate and ideas on the subject of HOW we fundraise. But we ain't going to get sidetracked by anyone with an agenda.

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: gnu
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:17 PM

Did someone mention patches?

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:13 PM

Its not different CH....Just done on a regular basis as a reminder and not a major

ohmygawdferchrissakesthecatisgonnacloseohmaxyouareasaintandIwillsendmoneytoday

I agree that we need an effort towards generating real income through internet and other funding sources. That is a distinct and separate project that needs addressed as well. But the average member here would like to have an easy way to participate at ANY level too.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: gnu
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:13 PM

Mick said, "For some folks just donating $15.00/year represents a bigger sacrifice and more generous donation than those who can afford to donate more, use it more, and yet send in a small amount. It is not for us to judge who gives what."

Right on. I tried a while ago to get 'Cats to send in a buck or two each. I even went to extremes in being goofy about it to garner attention and try to get some money rolling in. Instead, I got didiculed. The PM's were the worst... ridiculous! Especially a couple of nasty ones. And, you know who you are.... ya cheap bastards.

Seriously, folks, no donation is too small.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Cool Beans
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:12 PM

I just mailed in a few bucks. I would gladly do it every year for the pleasure and knowledge I derive from Mudcat. I don't care that it's not tax deductible and I trust that it won't go for beer.
One way for Mudcat to be self-sustaining is if we ourselves sustain it.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 06 - 01:54 PM

You need to reread the part about the clones being paid CH.....you have it wrong.

What I really want to contribute here is the past. I am sick to death of the "Mudcat Emergency" fund drives. Every time this happens we generate cash, a bit of future cash, and 1001 great ideas but what we always fail at is commitment to the program.

What I mean here is simple. When we are done here on this time around, are we going to be better off or exactly the same, just at a later date? Keep the ideas coming but at the core of this thing we need a couple of things.

Regardless of the final tallies we need monthly or yearly, we need a dedicated effort toward fundraising on a regular basis. Yearly, based on past experience is not enough. Neither though do I want to be have my hat in my hand all the time. I would propose a sort of "Reminder Fundraiser" every 4 months on a moderated thread and lasting ONE WEEK.....and then the thread closes. I think that would make it far enough in between not to be aggravating and short enough not to be too obnoxious as well. Just a nice reminder type thing to pay attention to all the ways to contribute and hopefully get a few more on board the monthly or yearly bandwagon.

To me, this is the one thing we must do and we must have the tools in place to make it work. Let's decide on some type of financial update as to where we stand on the fundraising and let's put some type of thank you into place. Even if that is just a simple "Thanks for helping keep the 'Cat purring" and some simple thanks as well for those auction items and bidders.

This "Thank You" thing is a kind of general theme running along in this thread and while I agree with Jeri, I also agree with the many others who would simply like to know that their dough arrived. A Thank You note of some sort is not too much and would suffice for many....Even by e-mail or PM......Someone needs to handle that and Max is that someone. He can choose to delegate that duty if he wishes but how he works it out is his business (:<))...A thanks from Mudcat Central both solves and soothes............nuff said.

Spaw

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Grab
Date: 16 May 06 - 01:37 PM

Re Clinton's point about getting more self-sustaining, I'd be interested to know about the Amazon link-up. Does this still work?

I know it certainly doesn't work for Amazon.co.uk, which (naturally) is where I order all my stuff from. Now I know Max's SotU post says that UK Mudcatters are taking over, so why not get this in place for the UK side too? That'd be a bit more guaranteed income.

Graham.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:57 PM

Thanks for the emails and PM's I am receiving. I want to let the thread just run for a few days, and then I will generate a compilation of the suggestions. From this I will post a suggested plan based as much on concensus as possible. We can then start to work towards a final product in terms of doing an ongoing, sustainable capital campaign.

Wonderful ideas here, and I have only had to delete one post. That one wasn't intended to be harmful, it just didn't relate to the point of the thread. One other took a personal jab, but the rest of the post was about the fundraising so I left it alone. No one paid any attention to it anyway.

Congratulations, and stay on point. We might just be able to do some real good.

One last thing. Someone above said they were leaving the thread because someone else said they weren't comfortable with the clones having knowledge of who contributes. Two points. First, don't leave. The comment was not made in a contentious fashion, it was just an opinion. Second, I agree with the comment. The list of who donates and what amounts should only be the business of Max and whomever he has in charge of the fundraising. Amount given should not be an indicator of support. For some folks just donating $15.00/year represents a bigger sacrifice and more generous donation than those who can afford to donate more, use it more, and yet send in a small amount. It is not for us to judge who gives what.

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:48 PM

I disagree, Clinton. I am looking at fundraising from several angles. One is to generate the income needed to sustain the site, and improve the system. Another would be to try and compensate not just Max for his time, but Jeff as well. Joe, Jeri, myself and the rest of the clones do this as a labor of love and take satisfaction at being moderators. Jeff is a professional, and I would say he has demonstrated his dedication and love of the site many times over. But programming is how he pays bills. He should receive some kind of stipend for the work he does.

But to get back to Clinton's contention, the reason I disagree is that if folks had some sort of investment in the place, then they have the ability to take real ownership and not the kind that some think they have. This would give the owner of the site real input instead of the repetitive rants of the most obnoxious. The fundraiser becomes a barometer in real terms of the job being done.

I agree that the commercial avenues suggested should be pursued, but given the nature of The Mudcat, it seems very important that the link to the members is maintained.

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:33 PM

"A PM from someone who would upload it to Mudcat will resolve that."
I have space to host the brochure that people can DL and print off....   And I'll host it happily.

Might I suggest folks print it onto white 'static cling' film and put it in your car window.... The back seat side window, behind the driver, gets a LOT of attention. My Trollmate and I put posters for plays there and have all kinds of people ask after them.

"...allows the place to have a thermometer they can see..."
Brilliant!!!!!

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:31 PM

This spending/giving/running the Mudcat operation is a seat-of-the pants labor-of-love off-the-books arrangement at this point in time as far as tax implications for all. Incorporation as a non-profit is one sound answer.

It costs some legal fees to become incorporated, but once that is achieved there are donation benefits for all, there is a level of protection for the individual running the operation, and there is accountability. The thousands Max must have poured into this over the years would have been deductible donations for him. If it makes money Max could even conceivably pay himself for his time, or at least pay himself back for his future investment in equipment and software and electricity. As to whether Mudcatters feel it is approriate that Max earn a wage or be paid back is open for discussion, but I see no conflict in this becoming part of the operation. It would be up to Max who got paid, what they were paid, etc., and it would take care of capital improvements. That main thing here is that Max would have to make these arrangements part of a public document (the corporation tax return).

I have a friend who did this with a small targeted organization in order to keep his various enterprises separate because he doesn't do this all of the time, only when opportunity presents itself (sound familiar?) In that case, he's trying to inspire people to preserve their community historic post clocks in urban areas. Incorporation has allowed him to use donated dollars to host a web site with information, to network with various other non-profits and donor groups to target specific projects in their areas; it allows him to write grants offered only to non-profits, and it pays office expenses for printing and such.

Management of Mudcat doesn't leave the hands of the originator under this arrangement, but there is accountability and protection. Our nameless guest has toned down his rhetoric and made lucid points. And though he hints at it, he hasn't gone so far as to suggest this remedy to what he perceives as problems associated with an individual running a setup that some suggest is a private club.

Food for thought.

SRS

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:29 PM

Seconded Jimmy.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: jimmyt
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:24 PM

I am presently calling Camsco with my donation. I did not announce it to belittle anyone or blah, blah, blah whatever but to get the ball rolling. I propose if someone feels the need to be silent, good deal, do so. I have noted that several other folks have made mention of amounts to the point that it seems we are well on the way to solving this problem.

I think acknowledgment is absolutely necessary in some form. Email or PM is fine

I propose we should adopt an annual budget of $10,000 per year, not the patchwork barely make it, $4500 we are presently operating with.

We have all been complaining about issues for years that would be readily solved with a little money. Let us make sure Max has it.

A thermometer is a great visual! Lets get it going! I propose that perhaps we should hold off for thirty days to see if annual fundraising drive is the way to go or if we see commitments for monthly donations it may be unnecessary. No one has any idea how this will be at the present.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:05 PM

I'm dumping this idea here, tho it's not exactly related to annual FRs.

It would be nice if Auction winners could undertake to offer the item they win to the other bidders as a resource. The item itself would not need to travel, but a private arrangement could be made to share some small part of the contents. The benficiary of the winner's generous spirit could agree to send Mudcat, in gratitude, all or part of their own last bid before they were outbid.

---------------------------

In my hard drive somewhere is the brochure material Max OK'd awhile back. I made it to go in my autoharp case to make available when people are curious about the sources for the someway obscure material that is my specialty. The idea was, originally, that such an item could be made downloadable at Mudcat and y'all could download it whenever you wanted and use it as an original to print up as many as you want to distribute. (Thus, no cost to Mudcat to supply a brochure for our use.)

I think it was me who dropped the ball, BTW, on getting a finished copy to Max. A PM from someone who would upload it to Mudcat will resolve that.

Of course, I'd also give Mudcat a cut of my proceeds for playing, but the Cat's in a deep enough hole financially already-- I don't get bupkiss! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: jeffp
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:38 AM

That's a good idea. We could have Max determine what the next hardware need is, server, storage, cables, whatever. We could set the goal to raise the cost of that and post a thermometer (or whatever symbolic icon - maybe a banjo with the amount rising up the neck) to show the progress.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:27 AM

To add--

Goals that people set should be finite; that is, they should have an end in view, or for most folks the task becomes too nebulous and subsequently unreachable. Knowing the hardware requirement costs allows the place to have a thermometer they can see when the open the Mudcat. Make it a front-page thing. As the contributions come in, let the mercury rise. That would allow people to see what is need to have the thermometer 'go over the top'. That would allow the place to inform its member/contributors without the need to name names. Marx or Engels said something about each to his abilities. The thermometer would let that happen. Those who can give will. Those who can't won't. But the drive would make it a community thing and allow people to feel a 'vested' interest in the place.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: bradfordian
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:24 AM

As most of you know, it's the Yorkshire Mudcat Gathering this coming weekend and we always have raffles, collect donations, & sell odds & ends and these funds are passed on to Mudcat usually thru Bill/Sables. I'll be showing my face there because GUY WOLF has donated a CD & a whistle for the auction, ANIMATERRA donated their latest CD and I'm sure we will make a great effort on this occassion. But this is only a once per year effort but I'm sure many of us will following with interest other means of fundraising including methods of giving moderate regularly because I think that this way, we don't feel the burden as much as a single larger donation.
bradfordian

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:11 AM

There seem to be two separate things in the works that need attention.

1) Capital Cost

Hardware. People need an idea of exactly what is required to allow Max to upgrade hardware so that that side of things is not an issue anymore (for a few years). That is, how much in dollars. That is a capital cost.

2) Operating Cost per Month

What is required to run the place every month. I believe the OCpM has been stated.

Therefore, would two separate accounts be of benefit? One for CC and the other for OCpM?

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: gnu
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:11 AM

Some excellent ideas! Keep em comin. And, even you think they are far fetched, maybe not even understandable, don't feel embarrassed to post them. Never stopped me. Of course, I am gnuts.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:05 AM

Hmm--

It might be a technological challenge, but how about the possibility of a workshop at both NOMAD AND the Getaway, occurring in both locations simultaneously, but linked via the internet like some video conference?

--Charlie Baum (who will have to check out the speed/reliability of internet connections at West River if someone thinks this is practicable)

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: jeffp
Date: 16 May 06 - 09:56 AM

You're right there, Mmario. I wouldn't even try to put a price tag on that.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 May 06 - 09:46 AM

I'd opt for an Annual fund drive, meself with follow-up PMs to those who don't respond. Sometimes, even the most well-meaning supporters need a reminder... or may be able to give later, but not at the time of the Fund-raiser.

I'd also opt for The Simpler The Better. I don't need an umbrella or a tote bag, Or a photo of Max in a Santa Clause suit. The more complicated it gets, the more work it takes and the more potential for spending some of the money that is raised in order to reward people.

I'd also opt for anonymous giving. (No, not you alone, Anony Mouse.) If someone wishes to announce how much they are giving as an incentive to get others to give, that's fine with me. I would just hope that it doesn't become institutionalized to the point where people who are on a limited income feel that there contribution is too small to make a difference, and don't give at all. The loss of income might be small, but the feeling of not belonging because of financial limitations should be avoided at all costs.

Once this thread rambles along for awhile (before it hits 400 posts, hopefully) I'd recommend that there be a concise, short list of proposals to vote "yea" or "Nay" on so that we can get moving on this.

Jerry

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 06 - 09:32 AM

And that's without the upgrades that might be needed.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: MMario
Date: 16 May 06 - 09:30 AM

Jeffp; I'd say "net cost to Max exclusive of time and labour" *grin*

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 May 06 - 09:27 AM

Just for the record, the DT isn't soliciting contributions. Programming assistance, yes, but money no.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: jeffp
Date: 16 May 06 - 09:25 AM

How much does mudcat cost to run per annum?

Based on Max's monthly figures in this
thread, I get:

Basic cost: $4500 per year
Google ads: $1800 per year
Contributions: $600 per year

Net cost to Max: $2100 per year ($175 per month)

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: MMario
Date: 16 May 06 - 09:16 AM

Donations to the DT are a whole seperate issue. The Mudcat Cafe and the Digital Tradition are seperate entities - the latter just happens to have an online presence at the former.

BTW - for those who want some calculations:

Approx costs to run mudcat cafe:

For the year = $4500
Per Month = $375
Per Day = $12.40
Per week = $87.00
Per hour = $.52
Per Minute = $.01

obviously some of those figures have been rounded. But they show that even small contributions are useful.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: MMario
Date: 16 May 06 - 09:05 AM

Per annum - using Max's estimate (which is probably low and includes JUST the day to day running expenses, not maintainence or upgrades) - would by $375 x 12 = $4500.

upgrades could very very easily take an equal amount. I would suggest trying for an annual income of $9000 exclusive of the internet ads; those would form a cushion and emergency funds.

I use PayPal to donate - in part because I get a notification when Max receives the money.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:59 AM

How about changing the context of what the money is going for to legitimize it?

Sending Max money is not something I am willing to do anymore (no acknowledgement, no financial accounting, no more donations from me).

Donating to a fund that will be accountable to the users to upgrade and maintain the DT & the music archive I might be able to get on board with, depending upon who sets it up, how it is run, and who is in charge of the money.

I'm not willing to send what little of my money there is to a cyberspace black hole, no matter how useful/entertaining it might be.

Those of you working on the Mickey Rooney fundraiser angle might think that through a little more. New people may not be willing to raise money for Max, considering what the product is. And then there is the xenophobia this forum suffers from, the idiotic non-controversy with the member/guest log-in, the nasty way newcomers get treated with suspicion and called names like 'troll'.

It might be essential to those addicted to this place to send Max money so he won't pull your plug, but this site simply will not draw money from outside the current forum membership the way it is being run now (reliability problems, outdated technology, and a forum for adults with the social skills of four year olds).

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:40 AM

How much does mudcat cost to run per annum?

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:34 AM

Find a Folk Festival or few who will champion Mudcat. They will have a Mudcat workshop, during the weekend - allow a Mudcat booth to be set up, and have any performer who is familiar with the website speak up from on-stage. The purpose is to tell everyone at the festival about the resource, how to find it, how to use it - AND to solicite donations for the Mudcat operating budget.

These festivals should be chosen wisely and placed around the Mudcat world.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:31 AM

I'm on the "yes-thank yous" side. I checked my PayPal records and it seems that I've sent $125 over the past year, but none of it has been acknowledged. But I want a gold-embossed certificate, suitable for framing, signed by the inimitable Max himself! No, seriously, a PM is more than adequate, but with all the scams on the Internet it would be nice to know that it gets there.

I don't think its possible in PayPal, but can Dick/Camsco set up a monthly credit card debit? Personally, I've always found that payments I don't have to actually think about work better for me.

I'll see if the hostess of our monthly songcircle will agree to a MudCan.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:16 AM

I am not a clone and would be quite happy to do acknowledgements of funds received for Mudcat.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:04 AM

I'm sure you're right, Susan of DT. I do agree with WYSIWYG(Don) and Sian that many people don't know about Mudcat. But, maybe we need to get our house in order, both in spirit and finances before we try to get a lot of new people coming in. I'd like to see this place shine, so we can really show it off to newbies.

Maybe next year..

Jerry

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Susan of DT
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:45 AM

Jerry - NOMAD conflicts with the Getaway this year, so it is not the ideal time for a Mudcat workshop. You can certainly still do it, just expect fewer mudcaters than usually come to NOMAD.

The CAMSCO 800 number DOES work in Canada.

We (Dick/me/CAMSCO) have mudcat Tee shirts (navy or red, small to 3X) and mudcat patches. Bill Sables has them in the UK.

CAMSCO has a booth at Old Songs, Getaway, NOMAD (not this year), NEFFA. If you want a particular shirt, let us know ahead of time so we can bring it with us (bringing all colors/sizes is bulky). Or don't wait - we will mail it. We usually have patches with us. We also go to Mystic and Whitby. Let us know if you want us to bring something fo ryou.

At some point we can do another one of those crazy orders for many colors, if there is sufficient interest. It is a real nuisance tracking everyone's preferences and minimum order size, but we can do it again sometime.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:45 AM

Now here's my plan...

Kendall and I will arrive at Old Songs nekkid. For each $50 contribution to the 'Cat one of us will put on one article of clothing; starting with shoes and socks.

Peter.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From:
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:23 AM

I'm ready and willing to help with FoM too. Perhaps some of the London or UK catters could get their heads together and work out some fundraising methods or events etc....

Khatt

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: My guru always said
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:16 AM

Ready & willing to assist with UK FoM as previously mentioned to Micca.

Thank you notes - yes, definitely please! Having previously organised a couple of MudRaffles in aid of MudCat at UK Mudgathers & sent the money on to Bill Sables, it would have been nice to hear that the donations had been received. But I realise that Bill has limited time & am just glad that he's been able to help with the money transference!

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Jeri
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:54 AM

I like the idea of sending [form] thank you notes to persons who donate as a means of verifying and acknowledging that donation.

But I don't like that task being handled by "clones".

I'm a clone and I agree with Azizi - we shouldn't be handling sending thank-you notes to people. I think the people who want or expect them are few, and the admin weenies such as myself are here to do other, more technical things. I, personally, wouldn't care for a thank-you note. Max used to have an auto-generated message, and that's fine with me.

I don't know that Max needs people to have a big fundraising thingie once in a while, like we typically have. I think he might like to hope for a more steady flow. Perhaps a small monthly amount from a lot of people. This year is going to be tough for me, money-wise, so I'll try to dig up some auction items.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:46 AM

I shall give 100.- $ via Camsco. That's about what I would give yearly for this resource to stay online.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:28 AM

Regular input from Max as to the financial state of the union would help. I've made contributions a few times before in response to some crisis or other, but I haven't kept it up on a regular basis. My fault of course, but human nature seems to require some kind of structure. It wouldn't have to a regular begging thread from Max. Perhaps it could be a separate section that you could click on (like Mudcat auction) and find out where we are financially.

Also, much as it pains me to agree with my loquacious compatriot, Clinton has a point about Mudcat being self supporting that should be investigated. I'm no Internet expert, so I don't know the answer, but if more money could be raised through Internet advertising, I don't think we should be trying to achieve a state of folkie non-capitalist purity.

Finally, it would be nice to get some acknowledgment for contributions, even if they aren't tax deductible.

Edmund

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:06 AM

Moves are afoot to revive the UK FoM, and someone will keep you all posted with the progress.
In the meantime if there are any UK Catters who want to send and don't have a PayPall account, they can still do it through Camsco as I did my Getaway fees. Just E Mail Dick for details.PM OR [e-mail])
Giok

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:55 AM

I'm sure that someone from Friends of Mudcat UK will call in here so, for the record, I'd be perfectly happy for some of the funds to be used to print up leaflets for distribution at festivals/clubs - including N American ones (maybe we don't NEED to drum up more UK traffic?)

But, having said that, is increasing the traffic really a priority? Presumably more users will put more stress on the system, when we REALLY want to do is secure what we have, with development as a second-stage ambition?

siân

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:43 AM

If some DVDs could be organised, I would be very interested. Region "0", please... :-)

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: karen k
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:59 AM

Mick,
I'll help any way I can. Just let me know. I'll try to think of some ideas. I love Bert's idea of a dvd or cd of some of the Mudcat radio shows. Good one, Bert.

karen

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:56 AM

I'm with Azizi on the issue of saying who gives what. I set up a standing order to Friends of Mudcat UK some time ago and I'll give as long as I'm in employment. My work is cyclical so I know now that I may go through patches when I won't be able to give. I am always reluctant to mention this in threads because it is my business, between me, FoM and Mudcat Central. I'd like to keep it this way.

I did mention in the other thread (which I shall not bother with now: thanks Jerry & Big Mick) that I thought an International Mudcat Day, possibly in the Spring, would be a good idea. I'm not sure about doing it twice a year as things tend to get tight in the Autumn - school expenses for some, Christmas, et al. So perhaps a date in Spring, with the spirit of Secret Santa, with Mudcat Central as the sole Santee, would be an idea. Regional clusters of Catters could, of course, organize more localized events at times of the year which suited them.

And speaking of Secret Santa, we could, instead of spending $/£15 (or whatever the suggested limit is) on presents, we prospective Santees could suggest $/£ 10 on present and £/$ 5 to the Cat.

And, as mentioned previously, a Guide to Giving at the top of EVERY page? Yes?

How nice to have a thread with such focus. Well done, lads.

sian

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:48 AM

I suspect that, if we polled the people attending folk festivals, we would find that the majority have no idea that Mudcat exists.

How about getting one of our more artistic members to produce a Mudcat flyer which gives detail of the Cat, and its aims and objectives.

We could then download and print it off in say A5, to be handed out at the many festivals and clubs we all visit.

This would be a good way, without expense to Max, to bring in new members who would by definition be here for the music, not the BS.

Don T.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: GUEST,Check IP....a Member :(
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:28 AM

I was just about to post some input re: Ideas, but I think I will simply use PMs as a means to communicate about this topic.
Remarks like "But I don't like that task being handled by "clones"." are just out of order. What the F*** is that supposed to mean! Where is the thinking behind that particular remark.

Sorry Peeps. For a while there I, again, was hopeful that cerebal contributions to this thread would be kept positive but.......

For what it is worth,
It might be a good idea to just leave the Mudcat logo as is.

Will PM you Big Mick and if any ideas are worthwhile in my PM maybe you could pass them on. Thanks.
I am out of this Thread too.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Haruo
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:10 AM

FWIW, as I said in the other thread, I am sending $50 and will try to remember to send a bit more from time to time. (I'm sending a check, I'm still not comfortable with plastic let alone virtual plastic.)

Haruo

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:32 AM

" if there is going to be fundraising"
IF Mudcat is HALF as popular as the 'party line' states, there is no good reason why it isn't self sustaining...

Any other plan is nothing more than a stop-gap effort (not that such things don't have merrit, but in the long term they are NOT a solution)

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:00 AM

I think it might be an idea to publicise the total contributions received per relevant period - in this case since the opening of the state ofthe union thread. This could repeat monthly (with a cumulative total). Target might be to raise $400 month as I suspect Max understimated his costs, and seeing the number of people who have said they have sent money (some saying how much) I expect we would show a good surplus from that time, but there would then be swings and roundabouts in subsequent months.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Rasener
Date: 16 May 06 - 01:50 AM

I have now included a link to mudcat on my website

Market Rasen Folk Club

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 01:26 AM

Yeah, open mike, I know about that banjo symbol with the fish in the middle.

I was talking about a large upright banjo [maybe a bass instrument would be better but imo that doesn't fit as well with folk music]...Anyway increasingly more sections of the banjo gets colored in [usually I've seen the symbols get red like a thermometer] when specified amounts of donations are received.

It's just a thought-whether we do this or not it's fine with me. I'm more concerned about not dissing people who don't/can't give. And as I said I'm not fond of publicly listing or praising people who do give and/or publicly noting the amount they give. I'm concerned about ensuring the confidentiality of the givers and the amounts that they give-especially if the givers don't publicize it themselves.

I like the idea of sending [form] thank you notes to persons who donate as a means of verifying and acknowledging that donation.

But I don't like that task being handled by "clones".

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: open mike
Date: 16 May 06 - 01:12 AM

we DO have a banjo as our symbol
if you go to the opening home page
you will see it there. you can also get
shirts
with our banjo symbol on them
Or you can get an Embroidered Mudcat Patches from Dick at
CAMSCO -
$5 each plus $1 to ship up to 3 of them.
contact: PM at dick greenhaus or [e-mail] or
[e-mail].
Camsco Music
145 Hickory Coner Road
East Windsor, New Jersey 06520
800-548-FOLK (3655)
or 609-371-1707

PLUS these folks have goods and services available thru the
mudcat market
and they promise to donate a percentage to the 'cat

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:55 AM

They are useful too in that when money for something from a Mudcat Auction is sent from another country, even just a brief email saying "payment - basic details of amount and date - received" would be helpful in making sure that posted money orders, etc have not gone astray. If people don't include an email address, then send none, of course... :-)

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:32 AM

Amen to that, SRS! I volunteer to help with Thank you notes. They are much appreciated and need to be a common occurence whenever anyone contributes whatever amount. I also agree with not wanting this to become an exclusionary thing, from those who can give a lot and those who send in small amounts when they can.

Jed brings up a good point. I've had links to the Mudcat on all of my sites for several years, now. Not sure I've brought in too many people that way, but if we all did it, those who have websites, it's got to have an effect.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:24 AM

I can't send much at any given time, but I try to keep a trickle of cash going Mudcat's way. I do have one suggestion that would help those who do donate: send a thank you note.

It can be a polite form, but it would be nice to receive an acknowledgement from Max or whoever his appointed note-writer is. I can always find out if a payment got there, but if you're looking for a small way to let those who do donate know they're appreciated (and noticed), a thank you note is the way to do it. Don't put any symbol next to my name (suggested in the other thread) but don't forget me, either!

SRS (one small cog in the wheel. . .)

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:05 AM

If a decision is made to feature a visual for a Mudcat fundraising campaign, I hereby propose the banjo [standing upright].

I'm serious. I think it would work well as a fund raising symbol for Mudcat.

Whatdoya think about this idea?

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:55 PM

I posted this to my Myspace blog a few weeks ago. It is the kind of thing that can help bring in new folks, folks have an ineterst in music ... if we have 20 or more mudcatters doing this sort of thing, it can only help. I presume new folks will also help develop funds, as these various funding schemes take off.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:37 PM

Mudcat really does have a reputation among the professional folk/celtic musicians I meet in my travels. There are few who haven't heard of it, used its resources, or even posted a thread - whether they do so anonomously or not.

If regular Mudcatters, who maintain websites of their own, for the band or have Myspace accounts were encourgaed to highlight links to Mudcat, and post a little explanation about it on their website - we would devlop a continuous "feed" of new users and regulars. I will go off and figure out how to highlight my links to Mudcat. I am certain that I have generated some new users to Mudcat - though I know most will shy away from the more shrill discussions.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Bert
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:31 PM

How about making a couple of DVDs from the Mudcat Radio Shows.

A selection of some of our guests might do it.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:07 PM

Would it be helpful if there was a goal set and some visual symbol with indicators of contributions received to meet that goal?

Though I wasn't a "Deaniac", I'm thinking of his baseball bat and seeing the indicator move up sometimes with internal challanges from various individuals or the moderators. I recall that Wesley Clark had some fundraising image too, and though I was a "Clarkie" and not a Deaniac, for some reason I can't remember what fundraising symbol Clark used.

If I might continue with what I remember from my introduction to online forums via that political "community", I recall that many members of the Clark and the Dean campaigns announced their pledges online. And I also remember there was competition built in between the two sites {who could raise the most fastest}. I'm not sure how that could be translated to Mudcat, but I'm including it here because I'm in reminisence mode knowing that what I'm posting may or may not be relevant to our situations.

I remember there was so much energy associated with those fund raising campaigns. Alot of people wrote in their pledges and challenged other members to up their pledges in an auction kinda way {"I'm in for 50. Who can match me? then someone else would write: "I'm in and I raise you 60" or something like that}.
I remember that most people announced the amounts of their pledges, though that didn't have to occur for the visual indicator to register the increase in donations.

And while that was exciting, it was also disturbing and sad when you didn't have the money to give. There was a feeling that you had to give even if you couldn't afford it. I hope that doesn't happen here at Mudcat.

And I don't believe that anyone was penalized if he or she didn't give money, the people who did give and give alot {at different times or alot at one time} were publicly praised.

Those political websites closed because their leaders lost primaries and dropped out of the democratic campaign. If those online communities were long lived, then it seems to me that the way they were going, they would have become tiered systems where those who gave the most would be publicly praised and given priviledges neyond those that the non-givers {or givers of smaller amounts would receive}. I really really hope that Mudcat doesn't go this route.
Though in some posts that I've read since Max started that "State of the Union" thread, it seems that we [or at least some of us] are already going down the path of publicly praising those who have pledged "generous" amounts to Mudcat.

Which doesn't mean that we shouldn't give. I know that I need to give and will, though-like some others here I'm struggling financially. But because of the reasons that I've noted, and also because it is my personal belief that you shouldn't announce your good deeds as that is patting yourself on the back, I won't be participating in any public oneupmanship.

I hope this journey down memory lane helps. I don't see it as thread drift though who would have thought this thread would mention political leaders?!

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: open mike
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:00 PM

are there needs BESIDES financial (energy, expertise, etc.)
which will help lighten the load here?

SUCH AS THE TIME-CONSUMIONG TASKS THE CLONES DO, FOR EXAMPLE.

There must be many tasks here that need attending to.

We also have patches, badges, c.d.'s and shirts to market.

Perhaps some of us have services that can be donated
either to the website or to be auctioned?

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:46 PM

Actually we need two Wes.....One for the short term, read: NOW!!!.....ANd we need another for a running monthly/yearly contribution. We had something like that going at one point but as they often do, it got lost over time. Some kept up their contributions while others did not. No real fault here with anyone.....You just let it go by a time or two and then you forget.

So I'd suggest a two part approach here. Anyone with a few available bucks right now and those who can COMMIT to something on a monthly basis that we can actually count on. I think we would probably need to run one of the "Pledge Drives" every 6 months or so.....First to remind those of us who have fallen short and also to get more folks involved.

Spaw

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:44 PM

The offer is appreciated, Susan, but I would like to keep all discussion right here in the thread. Our community is world wide and I would like to be as inclusive as possible.

Great ideas. I want to make sure that we have goals related to real expenses. One of the keys to fundraising is to make sure there is accountability.

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:44 PM

Here's what Max posted about expenses in the other thread:

Rough numbers, but The Mudcat costs about $375 per month to run. Broadband with upload speed is the biggest monthly expense. The google ads provide an average of $150 per month. Contributions and Auction average about $50 per month, and t-shirt/badges is a trickle.

I got the cost down this year by consolidating servers to reduce electricity, but did have to purchase a new Server and DSL router to handle the load.

Most years, we're close enough to breaking even that it doesn't matter to me. We've never made more than we spent.

If I moved the google ads to the top, I could probably do much better, but I've always wanted to avoid making ads overt. If it pays the bills though, maybe I should.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:42 PM

Last night I contributed by Visa, having heard how to do so from Amos and Becky. It's surprisingly easy--just call up Dick Greenhaus and give him the Visa info. I recommend it to anybody in the US (probably has to be in the US to use the 800 number.) I also put this info on the original State of the Union thread.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: GUEST,Mary Katherine
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:41 PM

Is there also a way that Max could let us know what "parts" he needs, in case one or more of the tech types among us might be able to supply him directly? If he says "Boy, those darn frazzbots keep burning out," someone else might jump in and say, "I've got a whole box of shiny new frazzbots that I bought for a system I no longer use, shall I send them in?" Or perhaps someone on the list has an "in" to buy frazzbots at a third of the price that Max usually has to pay?

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:37 PM

Yes - a goal should be set. We need to ask what we want to accomplish here. Is the idea to just pay for the operating expenses ? Or planning toward improvments and expansion ? It's easier to meet a goal once you know what it is. We need to know what the bare bones cost of running this place is - and then ask Max for a "wish list" on what improvments are needed.

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:36 PM

GREAT ideas, Susan!!

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:33 PM

Mick, do please mark Jerry's opening post that this will be a moderated thread, before people misunderstand, OK?

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There has to be some fun or FRs get humdrum after the first time around. One idea for pledge drives is to avoid guilt and instead issue a challenge. A challenge not only as a total amount to be raised for that FR (fundraiser), but a challenge intrinsic to a theme for the FR itself. Like, a silly non-prize award (as Aine does for Song Challenges), named with some regard to the theme of the challenge.

And let's avoid FRs at tax time...

Say we did an early spring FR (before tax time) about monthly maintenance support, and a fall about for hardware (before Xmas shopping). One of the hardware "prizes" for example could be "The Burnt Motherboard Award" with the winner of that getting a photo of Max taking out a bad one or putting in a good one-- of course the photo would go in the Mudcat Photo section-- and the actual print of the photo would also be auctioned off with the winner photo-shopped in. All the "prize" photos could go into a Mudcat Calender, too, for more ongoing FR.

"Max's Sexy Bits" for a calendar title.

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Group challenges are fun, and members can PM like mad to sign up partners. Say it would be the spring one; a group could choose a month in which the group members have a lot of birthdays, and undertake to sponsor that month's expenses with a pledge made during the FR and to be fulfilled at the chosen month.

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Hockey was a big hit here with a faithful and pretty large group of hockey-fan members. I hereby challenge hockey lovers to join me in sponsoring JUNE 2006 expenses, since that is when some damn team will get the Stanley Cup. Let's celebrate the great season it was by making a group gift in the name of the Team that wins. (Or we can be The Loser's Group unless Edmonton actually carries off the win-- I HOPE!!!-- so it could also be called The Mudcat Grovelers (Edmonton is Peace's Team). I believe the hockey thread's original challenge was that those whose teams lose must publicly extol the virtues of the winning team. It's only right that it cost us, like a sick/twisted pool.

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Another thing that helps raise funds is to let people know what their money buys-- "Your ten bucks keeps the Mudcat purring (or swimming) for XX minutes/hours." Or "Your ten bucks keeps the Mudcat Modem connected to YOU for XX minutes/hours/days."

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My last offer for now is that if Hardi and I are still in this house for October, we can host a FR Brainsotrming meeting pre- or post-Getaway. Some pretty swift people have stopped here, and it would be a fun schmooze.

~Susan

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:07 PM

Thanks, Jerry. You're the best. Onward with the discussion.

jimmyt, that is a very generous contribution. Thank you. Have you got any input on how we do this on a permanent basis? Incentives? Reporting?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:04 PM

It's all yours, Big Mick... pleased to hand it over to you. I was just getting so fed up with all the trashing going on in Max's thread that I couldn't stand it no more. I sure would appreciate you moderating this thread!

Jerry

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 May 06 - 09:57 PM

Yes, Jimmy, that is an important part of this. There should be a goal for each fundraiser. As someone else said, it should include operating costs and an amount for maintenance and upgrades.

Mick

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: jimmyt
Date: 15 May 06 - 09:52 PM

I will send $250 tomorrow to get it started. Lets keep up with where we are though so we can all feel like we are making some headway to getting us afloat. It is important that we have a goal in my opinion.   jimmyt

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max?
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 May 06 - 09:35 PM

Jerry, as I said earlier in that mess thread, we are going to do a moderated thread to talk about fundraising on a permanent basis. I am going to moderate it so that it stays strictly on topic. We can use this one if it is OK with you, but there is not going to be any thread drift allowed. And it is not a debate as to if there is going to be fundraising. This is going to happen, and I am looking for good, constructive ideas.

To start it off, I am going to take the responsibility of twice yearly fundraisers. Something on the order of a pledge drive, but I am open to any good ideas.

Please indicate to me if it is OK to use your thread as the moderated thread.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 May 06 - 09:26 PM

I'm with Art brooks. Perhaps it's time we focused on positive ideas to help Max. Max's State Of The Union Thread can rumble on into eternity as far as I'm concerned. I'd like to see us have a free-wheeling discussion about what we can do FINANCIALLY to not only keep Mudcat afloat, but raise the boat a little higher out of the water.

I'm in the process of putting together ideas for Workshops for NOMAD in November, and I wonder if a Mudcatter's Workshop wouldn't be a lot of fun. Actually, I don't have to wonder about that... it would be. I'd be willing to promote Mudcat at the workshop and also encourage people to support it. I'd have to check it with the powers that be at NOMAD, because they desperately need their own support. I wouldn't recommend actually collecting donations at the worshop, which would be counter-productive for NOMAD. If anything, I'd encourage people to support NOMAD as well. But we could at least have a sheet to hand out, describing Mudcat and encouraging people to come on line and check us out. Hey... it's not until November. Maybe by then the State Of The Union thread will have been closed..

This is just an idea... perhaps a stupid one, and even if it is a good idea, maybe we wouldn't be allowed to do it.

Maybe we could have Mudcat tables at the Festivals, selling the Mudcat CDs, and anything else we could come up with.

I have a kitchen table I'd be willing to let people use... :-)

If anyone who is planning to go to NOMAD is interested in being in a Mudcat workshop, let me know and I'll suggest it on my application sheet and pull a group together.

or maybe this is just a dumb idea.

Any other positive ideas about how we can help Max (financially)

Jerry

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This is an edited PermaThread® intended to discuss ways to support and improve Mudcat. This thread will be edited by Big Mick and by Jerry Rasmussen. Feel free to post to this thread, but remember that all messages posted here are subject to editing or deletion.
-Joe Offer-