Tips for singer/songwriters

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 09:06 PM

If I had a venue booking singer/songwriters, a pre-req would be a sworn affadavit that they have read and understand Steve Rapson's book - Art of the Solo Performer. www.soloperformer.com

dw

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 08:23 PM

Becoame doctors or lawyers.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:03 PM

I'd thoroughly recommend going to any workshops on the subject run by Mick Ryan. He's done a couple of excellent ones for us at the Lewes Arms Folk Club in Sussex, UK (www.members.aol.com/lewesarmsfolk)
and is full of practical, helpful suggestions.

Mick is known for his ballad operas such as A Day's Work (First World War) and most recently The Navvies, as well as free-standing songs with a huge range of subject and mood.

Valmai (Lewes, Sussex, UK)

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 05:14 AM

I'll pick a bone with you if I may, M.Ted. You said a bit further up that "writers are born, not made". Now, you probably didn't mean that as absolutely as I read it, but my viewpoint is almost the exact opposite. What everyone is "born with" (or perhaps more accurately "learns early on" is the facilities to observe, to think, and to express oneself in whatever manner. Later on they may (or may not) hone these facilities to a finer point through education and/or life experiences, yet may still not be writing songs - they also need the motive. The latter, when and if it comes, may be anything from intense feelings that need to be externalised, to a desire for fame and fortune, to a need to be understood by the world, to a desire to pass on a message etc etc. Some of those motives are bad masters; some are better.

The point I am trying to make is that for someone to begin writing songs, many things have to click into place, and the starting up process is haphazard. Most people have the potential to write songs, unless limited by upbringing or physical disability, just as most people have the potential to learn to ride a bicycle. That only some do, is unfortunate, because we all miss their potential creations. This is where songwriting courses can help to unlock the potential.

On 20th April 2001, at the age of 48, if you'd asked me to write a song I would have laughed because I "knew" I was incapable of doing so. On 21st April I wrote my first song. It was more than a year later, and some 60 or so songs down the line (including a couple of my biggest "hits" like "Friends like this" and "Emptyhanded") that I dared think of myself as a songwriter. If I had been "born" to be one, I was certainly unaware of it before 21/4/2001 - and I am still not 100% certain what it was that allowed me to do so.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:34 PM

I do understand where Ron is coming from on this--I've helped sort the mail at a station such as Ron's, where the unsolicited CDs went from the mailbag into the trash bag, and so I suspect that the listening that he gives may be the only one that some of these folks ever get--Good on you for that!!

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:31 PM

Maybe the disagreements that are arising in here are because for most of the history of recorded musicare you had to reach at least a certain level of experience and skill based on performing in front of an audience before you were recorded. Now, with the process of recording your music available to almost everyone, a lot of music is being recorded without the long years of growth that come from performing and honing your craft. Recording your music is a wonderful learning tool and I'd encourage all musicians, whether they are singer/songwriters or not to put your music down on tape or CD. To some extent, it can help to gain the experience that might otherwise have taken years to develop performing. I learned an enormous amount over the years recording my songs and music, multitracking harmonies and additional instrumental tracks. It's a terrific way to grow.

At the same time, I sympathize with anyone who is barraged with CDs to listen to. When I was running a concert series, I received a steady flow of cassettes and eventually CDs from people looking for a booking. For many years, I listened to every tape or CD I received and wrote a personal letter offering encouragement and making compliments where I could, with honesty. I know some musicians who were just beginning when I received a tape from them, and they went on to be very successful. They always remembered my encouragement, and when they had grown in skill I ended up booking them several times. As home-made CDs became more prolific, I reached a point where I couldn't keep up with the stack of unsolicited music in my mailbox. It was impossible to give a fair "listen" to every CD, or to send a personal letter thanking each person. That really bothered me, as I think it is very important to encourage musicians early in their development. We all started somewhere and weren't very good. Whether the musician every became "very good," or not wasn't the point. I just wanted to respect their commitment to trying to create music. Unless you've been in a position of being deluged with unsolicited CDs, many by musicians who haven't really developed to the point of being ready to seriously consider booking (or playing over the air) I think it's difficult to realize the problem that Ron and others like him have. No matter how sincerely you want to encourage people, just the shear volume of music you receive weighs you down.

And remember, most people who run folk shows work very hard at it, and give a lot of thought into programming their show in a way that the music flows and each track compliments the previous one. It's a lot of work and like much of the hard work that is done in the folk community, from doing radio programs to hosting a concert series, the people who have that love of the music receive far more criticism than expressions of appreciation.

So, Ron: Knowing you a little bit, I know that you are a generous man who has given countless hours of his time to promote and encourage appreciation of folk music. I think that you've stated your opinion in a carefully worded, sensitive way and I applaud you for that. I know that you are not trying to discourage young songwriters, or other musicians from testing their wings. Sometimes, they just try to fly a little too soon.

Thank you for your kind words, WeeLittle... keep working on your music and I'm sure that you'll bring enjoyment to others..


Jerry

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 03:57 PM

Earnest--I am sorry if you feel accused--it was only a point, not an accusation--and the other comment, that singer/songwriters(and most artists and entertainers) give a lot more than they get back--another observation, not a complaint, and I never, ever, said the audience was stupid!!!!

I am not saying what you think I am saying--what I am saying is that even a bad performance is a lot of work. Creating is an ongoing process of shaping and changing, and the performer is much more aware of the weaknesses than any audience member is--the thing is that this process is directed by the writer/creators own vision--

Your comments and suggestions, however well motivated(and I grant that you have only the best motives) are *your* vision, and when you offer them, you are, and likely completely unintentionally,imposing your vision on another artists work--

Unless someone actually asks for your advice, it isn't generally appreciated, no matter how right it seems to you--(and often, even someone says "What do you think?" they don't want critical answer)

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM

How long is a piece of string?

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:44 AM

Getting back to Ernest's original thread title - DONT take any notice of anonymous guests who lay down THEIR Law as to how long a song should take to write - OK , so Hank Williams is quoted as saying that if a song took more than twenty minutes to write , it wasnt worth writing , but Keith Marsden who has written some absolutely superb songs used to spend months fine tuning HIS songs ! So dont use simple generalisations .

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Ernest
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:29 AM

"Those who want to be everybody`s darling will quickly end as everybody`s fool" (F.J. Strauß)

M.Ted: In your last post you "accused" me of giving unwanted advice - in the next paragraph you complain that many songwriters offer more than they get back - raises the question if anyone asked them to write songs in the first place? An attitude like "I am born as a great artist and you people in the audience are just to stupid to recognize it" is what really puts people of from singer/songwriters (and other artists as well).

If you don`t care for the audience, don`t expect the audience to care for you.

I started this thread as someone who - being often a part of the audience in folk-oriented venues - finds it a pity when someone who writes his own songs doesn`t get the recognition he deserves. Just for the record, I am no singer to speak of, but play a little harmonica and tenor banjo (mostly at home, sometimes with friends or at a beginner-friendly session): I think that makes me an educated part of the audience.

This is an open discussion forum, so I didn`t expect that everybody would agree with me or would find everything useful what I wrote. Pity those people whose friendships can`t stand dissenting opinions. And I am quite happy that we are covering different aspects as well as getting opinions from experienced performers like Jerry and Art or Radio people like Ron as well as people who are into music just for the love of it.

Best wishes
Ernest

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 12:45 AM

Songs should appeal to the emotions of the audience.

Remember that laughter and happiness are emotions too.

If you are writing a song that takes the piss out of certain aspects of society or life, then make yourself the object of the piss taking.

Use cliches even though many will tell you not to. That way your wsong will be remembered. People love cliches, that's why they exist.

If you can't find a rhyme for a particular word then use that word earlier in the line and rhyme on something else.

Draw pictures with your words to set the scene for your song. Add props to illustrate your pictures then you can use a prop to create a rhyme.

Don't take yourself too seriously.

Don't put yourself down either. When you are on stage you are not only the best there is, you are the ONLY one there is. You are the greatest.

Your audience deserves the best that you can do.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: FolkinReeGraves
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:56 PM

I read an excellent interview with Leanard Cohen where he talks about the whole notebooks that he would fill up just with one song. Sometimes, you just have to keep arranging and re-arranging them until it works for you...other times a song is floating around in your mind and you just throw it up all at once. Most of the time, I have the idea floating around for a while and then everyting jsut fits together and all the lyrics come out...and two days later I come back to it to tweak it a little. I know that that works best for me...but we are all different.

My advice to other singer-songwriters would be to find a group of writers who you think are increadible and do circle-rounds where you play for eachother and critique. Not only does it get you writing more than you normally would, but you have a supportive group around you who can really help you hone your craft.

And don't be afraid to mess up. It's the only way to get better.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:39 PM

The thing is, you're all right in a way.

i can see that all the advice is kindly meant. because I know most of the people in this thread as kindly decent people.

Guys like Jerry, Ron and Art - their words have meant more to me than I could ever explain, and they are part of the reason that Mudcat is a great enrichment of my life.

But you know, how ever much we fall short of our aims. the desire to create and perform is a noble and decent instinct. Sometimes God implants these notions into the heads of people who should never have picked up a guitar, and should be forcibly restrained from blowing their life savings on creating a cd - occasionally I feel like I'm one of them

Its like some people keep a caravan in the drive, but they work evry hour God sends and they never seem to go out in it - we all need that dream of freedom. so the caravan stays there in the drive, and those million cds stay there in the attic.

Most folk club organisers and as far as i can make out - all folk djs in england - don't regard what I do as folk music - even though I do try and focus on my life as its been lived in my songs. So on the rare occasions that i do get asked to do interviews or perform in folk clubs - its not all that good. My words are too hesitant - and (no pun intended) too earnest.

I always love listening to Glen Campbell, when he comes over to England to do radio interviews. he had his own radio show when he was 12, so he really knows how to pick songs (and instruments) that work live on the radio - and he knows how to say something to interest you in the song he's chosen.

however, some people, for personal reasons (or perhaps because there aren't many folk clubs where they live) get even less chance than I do to get their performing (and recording) right. the great Christy Moore once wrote me a post card, and signed off saying - let the music keep your heart light. Perhaps thats what people like us have to do

I think thats about right - even if you've got a million cds in the basemant - remember Paul Maccartney has warehouses full of his stuff, sitting mext there to Adam Ant, and last weeks latest music industry genius. like paul Simon says, every generation throws a hero up the pop charts.

all the best

al

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Genie
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:55 PM

Guest, your statement that "Peace, a good songwriter gets the song in an hour, polishes it in an hour and it's done. No song should take 120 hours!" sound a bit tautological. I.e., it sounds like you'd dismiss the writer as "a bad songwriter" just for taking so long to work on a song, no matter what the finished product was.

With Paul McCartney in the news now for turning 64, let me remind you that "Yesterday," which many consider one of his finest, if not the finest, BEGAN as a melody that popped into his head -- he hummed it to his mates and asked them what the name of it was! -- then went through a phase where its lyrics were "Scrambled eggs, Oh, my baby, how I love your legs! ..." and later was given the lyrics we now know.   
So much for your "an hour and it's done" rule.

I've also seen some of Woody Guthrie's original yellow-pad notebooks where he pencilled in early drafts of songs like "Deportee," "Pretty Boy Floyd," and others. Sometimes the notebooks show several different versions/incarnations of a song. In any case, Woody customarily worked and re-worked his lyrics over some period of time. And usually the songs were better for that.

BTW, when I speak of "working on a song for hours," that may mean playing and singing the song a number of times while entertainining new lyric possibilities or tune modifications. It doesn't necessarily involve a thesaurus and rhyming dictionary or breaking out the music theory texts.   Sometimes the muse makes brief visits to you now and then over a period of hours, days, or longer.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 08:03 PM

It's not how long it takes to write the song, it's how many years of living it took to gain the insight to write it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 07:19 PM

120 hours? I've got one that took 2 years to finish! It was about such an emotional subject that it was actually painful to write. I sang it once in public and it will probably never be sung again... but the person I wrote it for heard it, and that's all that mattered to me.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 07:18 PM

Well guest you must be something very special indeed, why are you not playing the palace??

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Rockhen
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 07:01 PM

I don't agree. I am only an amateur songwriter but I don't think you can generalise, Guest. You are entitled to your opinon, of course, if you were not just being provocative.. lol! :-)
I think some songs are ones created... of 'the moment' others are created painstakingly with care and deep thought over time. Sometimes you start a song, get stuck, leave it ages, then suddenly something sparks off the rest of it.
I think songwriters work in many different ways and also, the same person, may write in a variety of styles, depending on their mood, or choice of subject matter.
I also write differently, depending on whether I write at the piano, with my accordion or starting with the lyrics on their own, out somewhere.
Surely it is good to write in different ways?

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:28 PM

Peace, a good songwriter gets the song in an hour, polishes it in an hour and it's done. No song should take 120 hours!

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:09 PM

True.

I have some other good ones that took but a day or two. I do understand, but the 'sping into one's head' will NOT happen unless there is a solid background of work (read dedication to the art/craft) having gone into it all before then. IMO.

Subject: RE: Tips for performing songwriters
From: Genie
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:08 PM

Oh, and sometimes you've got to tame those little critters too.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Genie
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:07 PM

It's funny, Peace, but the one song I've written that gets almost unanimous raves from everyone I sing it for is one that kind of sprang full blown from -- or into -- my head one day as I was doing housework and singing 'aimlessly' for my own amusement. At the other end of the spectrum, among the songs I've written that most audiences seem to like, are songs where I've spent the 120 hours or so that you described fiddling with either the tune or some parts of the lyrics.   For me, at least, there's not one consistent "how-to" pattern.

I think melodies often do pop into the heads of musically-inclined people who are receptive to them. Sometimes lyrics do too. Part of the art is knowing how to capture the critters before they get away from you.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 05:52 PM

The last song I wrote (and one I consider to be as good if not better than anything I've ever writte) took three weeks--a rough estimate is about 120 hours from the initial idea and some chords to a finished product. The people who have heard it seem to like it. They range in age from 14 to 60. In my younger days I likely would have settled for something less and maybe it wouldn't have mattered all that much. Who knows. However, I do know that songwriting is hard work. It always has been. There are no short cuts, no easy ways, and no tricks. Just hard work. If songwriters are not willing to put in the work, it is likely they will produce a product which they will eventually wish they hadn't. That too is from experience.

The performing aspect: songs take time to learn well--to get phrasings just so, chordings just so, slides, riffs just so. If performers are not willing to do the work to seek and occasionally realize 'perfection', then find another way to make your livelihood. The same with the vocal side of things. It's work--nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 05:42 PM

As per the purpose of this thread--Earnest wanted to tell singer/songwriters what he thought they should do. No one asked for his advice. On re-reading his post, it seems even more sanctimonious and condescending than it did initially--perhaps he did not mean it that way, but he didn't make a lot of new friends on this outing--

Most singer/songwriters give more than they get back, they write, practice, study their crafts, and work a day job to pay for lessons, instruments, recording, and the incidental costs of performing--my point, both to Earnest and to Ron, is that, even when the results are less than stellar, the effort and expenditure is greater than your suggestions presume--

The thing is, the less experience you have, the less developed your talent, and the less money you have to through into it, the harder it is.   Be glad that people want to entertain you, and don't give them such a hard time--sooner or later they may decide that it isn't worth it to play for you--

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 04:24 PM

M.Ted, you make valid points about talent being inherent and ultimately it is the songwriter that decides whether the choice is good or bad. I do not disagree.

I do think that while talent is inherent, there are ways artists can improve their work to make themselves happy as well as their audience. For instance, I enjoy writing. I have issues with grammar, plot development and other stylistic devices. I know that if I took the time to study and practice that I could write a better story.

I've had the honor of interviewing many songwriters over the years, and I know each of them approach their craft from their own viewpoint. I can tell you that all of the songwriters who are serious about their craft do work hard and follow the pattern that I outlined. I've learned from them.

The purpose of this thread, as I understood it, was to offer tips to singer-songwriters "so we have more happy audiences and more happy performers."

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 03:47 PM

You don't understand how songwriters think, Ron. First point is that, for good or ill, writers are born, not made(this is true of artists of all other sorts, as well)--you are born with your gift--and, whether the world thinks it great or small, it consumes you totally, and to you it is great.

The next point, equally for good or ill,the writer's judgement alone determines what he or she will write, how they will write it, and, when it is done. Good writers are the ones who make good choices, bad ones make not so good choices, but they all think that they are making good choices--

So you must understand that what you get is always what the writer thinks is good--whether it is or not is another story.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:23 PM

If you are allowed the only POV, then just answer the question and the rest of us don't have to.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:22 PM

I don't.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Genie
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:00 PM

Guest, how do you know who writes songs and who doesn't?   

And Ron's right about the maître d' and other consumers. You don't have to be Michael Jordan or Phil Jackson to tell when somebody's made (or missed) a 3-pointer.   And you don't have to be Tom Paxton to recognize a good song.   
In some ways I think the "laymen's" opinion of a song counts for more than the "craftsmen's."   The latter may admire the handiwork that they, with their specialized knowledge, can detect, but that may color their perception of the finished work.

I'd also add that every time I've consulted successful songwriters about their process, I get at least as many answers as there are songwriters.

I do find all the suggestions in this thread interesting and potentially useful.   We can use what applies to us and not worry about what doesn't.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:03 AM

"Too many people who do NOT write songs are dishing out advice. That's like asking the maitre'd how to make soup."

Of course the maitre'd is the one who will recommend the soup to customers, and the maitre'd can be a customer as well. I would hope the chef would listen to the feedback from his consumers.

Still, you are right. The main thing is to have fun and do your best.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:57 AM

Keep your good stuff and fix or get rid of the bad. Too many people who do NOT write songs are dishing out advice. That's like asking the maitre'd how to make soup. You write your songs, do your best, have fun, and if people like what you do you will know within a few years.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:30 AM

"You work on your craft by writing songs, and by trying to get them heard. That's it. You give em them best you've got--if that's not good enough, so be it. Can Ron Olesko give a songwriter a formula for determining which songs to push and which to throw out? And if he could, would he be right?
Nobody knows what's going to go over and what isn't--that's why you're "advice" is way off the mark. "

M.Ted, I think you are finally understanding what I have been saying.

Of course I could not give out a formula. If someone says that they have such a formula, don't trust it! There should be no "formula" for this type of music, but there are ways to push out ideas, turn phrases, capture a moment, etc. These are topics that can be discussed and worked on.   It is the same as any art form - individual style will determine the final form, but crafting the work to make it accessible and enjoyable to others is something that comes with practice and experience. As you said, you work on your craft by writing songs and trying to get them heard.   No one will know what is right and what is wrong, but you can learn how to improve to make a song that is listenable.


"The thing is, all those forgetable recordings are part of the process--even the best songwriters have a fairly high ratio of misses to hits--"

I agree that "misses" are part of the process, but I disagree with your idea about "forgetable recordings".   You can develop a track record and a perception that will turn off a potential audience for your "hits".   While no singer-songwriter will ever record a CD that is full of "hits", the better artists do weed out the misses.   Woody Guthrie wrote thousands of songs. When he recorded, he usually used his better material. Except when he was commissioned, no one told him what to record. He knew what worked. It was not as easy to record in his time. If he were around today, do you really think that he would be recording every song that came out of him and selling them? ALL of those songs were part of his craft.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think that music should be made ONLY for commercial interests. Not everyone has to work to become a professional. Music should be made for the joy of creating. I only offered my advice because this thread appeared to be asking for tips and advice.

Genie, you make a very good point about recording. I agree with you, it is important to listen to yourself in order to determine what you are doing right and wrong. I do that myself with my radio shows, and I usually cringe when I hear what I am doing. But it is a good way to make improvements.    What I was referring to is the artist who records their songs for commercial sales and radio airplay.   You would be amazed as some of the recordings I receive.

And yes, I do agree - do not be put off if someone tells you that you can't sing or can't play. If you wish to do this professionaly or semi-professionally, go for it! Take the critiques and learn from them, good or bad. Keep practing.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:22 AM

The trick with tuning between songs if you have a lot of different tunings is to plan it out so's that you can easily get from one tuning to another to another to another etc, rather than jumping haphazardly from unrelated tuning to unrelated tuning - as well as the aforementioned stuff about talking over tuning bouts. Of course, this makes a live set a lot more inflexible and less spontaneous than if you were just using one tuning and could choose songs more at will and on the spot... but it's a satisfying challenge to work within those kinds of limitations.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: webfolk
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:00 AM

Can we get back on track and have another thread on tuning whilst performing?

Geoff Rodgers - singer/songwriter looking for tips

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 05:55 AM

The trick with tuning is to make it unobtrusive. If you can tell a story or warm up the introduction over it then fine. Martin Carthy gets away with it because he reads his audience, is funny, laughs at himself, talks over his tuning and has made it an integral part of his 'act' as a perfectionist Most people seeing him for the first time remember him as 'the bloke always tuning'. That, and the resulting song/tune is mindblowingly amazing. There are others as famous who could learn a thing or two from Mr Carthy, because they just look like egotistical pratts who couldn't read an audience if it were in large print. I have never heard Martin request silence in the middle of a gig so he can tweak a tuning peg....

LTS

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST,old hand
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 05:37 AM

Ernest my dear chap, even if your instrument doesn't need tuning it is a 'bit of a bluff' to pretend to tune very slightly and connect with your audience. Be light hearted, joke, build up a background to your songs etc. Lighten up man! few if any artist will go on stage to perform if they don't know their instrument! Suicide at its best!!
Oh! and by the way, I know my instruments inside out and I have to tune one of them or check the instrument between every set or should I sing then before I play again I usually need to retune (it only takes a few seconds)I talk to the audience as I carry this out. Uilleann pipes are not an instrument you tune once and thats that!
Give a bit of slack to the 'artists'who have broken all your (rules) or guide lines and found it works for them.
I do not disagree that you have a few valid points BUT don't be too rigid with them. They may work for you, if so, stick with it!   Very good thread!
               OH (old hand)

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:46 AM

The thing is Ron, it has always been true that most of the stuff recorded never gets heard. Most of the songs that get written are never sung, never played, never recorded, and maybe even never make it off the page they were written on--for every 10,000 songs written, maybe one becomes a page in the Great Songbook, and maybe not even that--

The thing is, all those forgetable recordings are part of the process--even the best songwriters have a fairly high ratio of misses to hits--

You work on your craft by writing songs, and by trying to get them heard. That's it. You give em them best you've got--if that's not good enough, so be it. Can Ron Olesko give a songwriter a formula for determining which songs to push and which to throw out? And if he could, would he be right?
Nobody knows what's going to go over and what isn't--that's why you're "advice" is way off the mark.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Genie
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:10 AM

One other angle occurred to me. Even if you are a performing songwriter - a term I prefer to "singer-songwriter" because it encompasses the instrumentals -- if your songs themselves are where your genius lies (more than your performing or recording skills) -- putting out a passable CD may be one of the best ways to get your songs "out there" to interest others in recording them.    That may be a bigger source of both respect and revenue than performing or recording them yourself for money.
The point is, people can often recognize the greatness of a song from a recording that itself is 'not ready for prime time'.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Genie
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:45 PM

M. Ted, you took the words out of my mouth about recording. I agree with Ron that it's probably not wise to invest a lot of $$ in professionally recorded CDs before your writing, singing, and/or playing is worthy of that expenditure. That could be like putting an Armani suit on a mule.

But I think RECORDING yourself and LISTENING to yourself is a great way to hear what's working and what's not with your songs and performances.   Also, home-made recordings -- which are getting better and cheaper every year -- are great for sharing your songs with other musicians and getting feedback on them.   Besides, if you're gonna register your copyrights, a tape or CD is probably the easiest thing to send in.

I also disagree with the idea that you "shouldn't" sing (record, perform, write, etc.) if you're "not good enough." Who was it who said, "Anything worth doing is worth doing badly"?

Way too many people are deprived of much of the music in their lives because they were told they "couldn't sing" or "couldn't play."    If you're not good enough, you're not going to get paying jobs, but some people never really get good till they've bombed quite a few times, gotten over their stage fright, and developed a strong stage persona by doing - and surviving - that.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:04 PM

M.Ted, I am not sure why that comment is striking you the way it does. It is NOT a cheap shot, I can guarantee you that if you ask any of the dozens of folk radio hosts around the country the question, they will give the same answer.

Before technology made rapid advances, a musician would hone their craft by playing in the manner that I mentioned earlier. Open mics, maybe an opening act, playing in clubs, working in song groups with other musicians, etc.   Recording an album cost money and time. An artist truly had to have the material to support the making of an LP. Many ended up with million sellers - a million copies sitting in their cellar. I could name a number of talented artists who gave up on music because of this frustation.

Today you could probably record a CD of songs and have it printed and available for online purchases before the sun dawns tomorrow. A songwriter never has to try out material in front of an audience. Can they write quality material? I am sure many could. But I would bet good money that there are many who can't and will end up frustrated and stop practing their craft. Trust me, I can show you hundreds of CDs that I've received in the past few years from artists you will never hear from again.

M.Ted, you may not understand what I am trying to say when I wrote "just because you can doesn't mean you should". That was not meant to discourage ANYONE. That was meant to let prospective singer-songwriters know that the first step is not selling a CD at a gig or getting a song on the radio. The priority is to getting the craft down. It is far from an easy skill.   

You may call it a cheap shot if you like, and if it discourages a songwriter from sending out a CD, then perhaps they weren't ready to begin with. I truly believe that an artist will know when the time is right if they take the time to work the material and get positive reactions from people who do not have a connection with said artist.

I encourage artists who think they have a recording that is worthy of sharing to get in touch with me or other Folk DJ's. M.Ted may be skeptical, but I can tell you that I do listen to the recordings sent to me, and I am proud of the diverse artists who I had the opportunity to share on my show since 1980.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:48 PM

It struck me as a cheap shot, Ron--maybe you're entitled to take a few shots, owing to the fact that you have to sift through a lot of stuff you'd rather not have to deal with--Still, you've tipped your hand, and, forever after, some folks who send you their stuff may wonder if you really "cherish the opportunity to give it a chance" you really think that "Just because you can doesn't mean you should"--

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:15 PM

Sorry M.Ted, but I don't think you grasped what I was trying to say. It is far from "poison talk", it is being honest about how a songwriter can improve their craft.

Often family and friends will offer nothing but encouragement - as they are supposed to. REAL critiques will come from others that have experience and have studied various techniques and style. They can offer suggestions and true help.

As for ""Just because you can doesn't mean you should" - I can show you hundreds of submissions from songwriters who are still learning their craft. Technology has enabled everyone to technically record a decent sounding CD in their home. The quality of the song often is not quite ready for public consumption. These are people who spend their income putting out a product that is not ready. It is a rare individual that can come up with a quality song on their first try.

As I stated, and M.Ted seemed to ignore, I believe that people should NOT give up. If you truly wish to grow as a singer-songwriter you will have to put in dues. YES, you should attend open mics. If your intent is to be a performer, you won't get the experience elsewhere. Even if you are playing for a handful of selected friends, it is still stage experience.   You must open yourself up to criticism and be ready to experience people that are far tougher than I am, no matter what M.Ted thinks.

I have a huge respect for talented singer-songwriters, and I am honored to share their music on the radio. I am proud to introduce "new" artists to the audience, and I will continue to listen to CD's that are sent to me. Yes, as M.Ted said, I may not play it, but I cherish the opportunity to give it a chance. If an artist puts their time and work in, they have an excellent chance.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:48 PM

Put an empty coffee can near the stage so when people drop tips in there it'll ring out like a cymbal crash! That'll let everyone know that if they don't put anything in there you'll be going home broke. And speaking of broke: --- At the intermission, give a couple of your CDs to the sexiest waitress to take the can around the room for you. You'll get more tips than you probably deserve!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:33 PM

Incidentally, you may need to study a bit to learn how writing music, but great lyricists seem to fall off the tree that way--

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:07 PM

Don't follow Ron's advice--it is bad advice indeed, even though it is well intended.

Shame on you, Ron, for saying "Just because you can doesn't mean you should." That is poison talk--I've had a lot of respect for what you've had to say about most things in the past, but you are plain and simply wrong here--

If your family and friends tell you that you're music is good, go for it! It means that they support you--and artists need support--I have seen a lot of talented kids fall by the wayside because their family and friends weren't supportive--You have to fight extra hard when you have to fight your family first---

As to open mikes, maybe you can get performing experience, but the reality is that, for the most part, they are a dead end--most open mike nights consist of "regular"s, who mostly play for one another--not necessarily a bad thing, but not any sort of opportunity--Clubs don't hire their open mike night artists--

The Folk Alliance may be useful for making connections, and you can learn a lot from workshops, but if you want to learn to write lyrics and music, you should seriously study with someone who knows how and wants to teach others what they know--with a good writer or a good composer, often in a good literature or music department(but not always-sometimes they hide in YMCA evening programs and such places)or get involved with programs that ASCAP and BMI offers--

As far as recording the first songs you write--if you can, do it(it is getting easier everyday)---everyone has to start somewhere, and, no matter if the first recordings aren't very good, they make the second ones better, the third ones even better, til somewhere along the line, you get to be pretty good--(just don't expect Ron to play it on his show)--

The most important thing is to keep working, no matter what anyone says. Sooner or later, you find you audience--and remember, no matter what Earnest says, no one want to hear you play a hornpipe!

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:59 PM

If your family and friends tell you that your music is good - take it with a grain of salt. Go to open mics, attend a Folk Alliance conference (especially regionals), take some workshops if they are available.   Practice. Find places to play. Don't record a CD as soon as you write a few songs, wait a few years until you have the experience. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Don't give up.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Genie
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:14 PM

Good advice, guest.

And, ideally, don't sound like everyone else. Either your vocals, your instrumentals, your lyrics, or your melodies. If you want me not to forget you, that is.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:03 PM

Tell me a story, but not about you. Tell me a story that could be about you, but is about me and everyone else. Sing me one song about love for every five songs about something else. Make me laugh, then make me think, then make me go "yes!" Communicate with me and the rest of the audience. Don't think you're doing something wonderful and deep and precious, it's just a song!
But if you get it right, I'll never forget it...or you.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Genie
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:44 PM

"Learning to play your instrument well helps in the long run (I remember hearing Steve Knightley saying this - just in case you want another opinion ;0)
If someone is too lazy to learn his instrument well, he should consider singing a-capella, get an accompanist or stick to reciting poetry."

Totally disagree. Being able to play an instrument well is not simply a matter of "learning" and practice. Vocal and instrumental skill are both subject to physical limitations. And what's wrong with simple instrumental backup for a vocalist?
I enjoy an excellent vocal with a rhythm guitar background every much as I do an excellent guitarist with a mediocre voice. :)

As has been said, as a performer you need to size up your audience and what they respond to.

I don't think "playing well" necessarily implies being an instrumental soloist. (And if a song is as long as a lot of folk songs are, I don't need an instrumental break. LOL)

I do agree with the idea of including some familiar songs. Most audiences love that, even from big-name artists or groups.   But I've heard many a group do a set of songs that I myself had never heard before - even if they were old folk songs - and been thoroughly enthralled by the concert! As, apparently, were the rest of the audience.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:43 PM

Hey, Ernest:

I have devoted much of my life to develop a style of playing instruments that hopefully compliment and enrich singing. Last year at the NOMAD festival, I lead a workshop of playing guitar for accompaniment because I think it is such an important, often overlooked skill. I can't agree with your repeated statement about having to learn your instrument well enough so that you can do instrumentals. If you are a singer who uses an instrument (or instruments) for accompaniment, learn how to enrich your singing and the song by playing your instrument well. But, the instrument is there to support the song and the voice. In all the years I ran a concert series I never once heard someone question why a fine singer and instrument player didn't break up the program with instrumentals.

In the reverse, I've heard fine instrumentalists do some painfully inadequate vocals to break up the program. They broke it up alright.

Play to your strength, and bring variety to an evening within that talent.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:36 PM

I think we were the ones who were telling you to "lighten up" Earnest----

I take it by your comment about those who can't that you are neither a singer/songwriter or a musician--if you want to tell people how to write, sing, or perform, it helps immeasurably if you can do it yourself-

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Genie
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:27 PM

Who's being heavy?   Just adding a couple cents' worth to the friendly chat. §;-)

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Ernest
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:07 PM

Lighten up, these are not "rules" you have to follow, but suggestions how to get a better response from a folk-oriented audience. It is something that is also known as "feedback" - the unplugged version, so to say. If it sounded like a consultants memo, that was meant tongue-in-cheek (If you want to accuse me of something, quote G.B.Shaw: "Those who can, do - those who can`t, teach").

Of course every day and every crowd is different and what works one time doesn`t on another day. I just felt that "Act as the situation requires" doesn`t really contain helpful information. This is what you have to find out for yourself. See my # 6.

M.Ted, I don`t think I am excluding someone. My suggestions concerning instruments simply don`t apply for a-capella-singers (I like a good a-capella or sean-nos song, by the way); the suggestions about known material does not apply to ethnic/world music. If it is anounced accordingly, nobody will expect well-known stuff. Historical or nostalgical material will certainly be recognized by the audiences I am thinking about(an anouncement can be helpful here too).
As for the anecdote about "The Cure": I have seen a good few bands that thought they could do likewise - but no one in the audience shared these thoughts.
Instrumentals are also a good way to show your abilities as an instrumentalist - it is also easier to play something more demanding when you don`t have to sing at the same time.
Learning to play your instrument well helps in the long run (I remember hearing Steve Knightley saying this - just in case you want another opinion ;0)
If someone is too lazy to learn his instrument well, he should consider singing a-capella, get an accompanist or stick to reciting poetry.

Best
Ernest
P.S.: Love your pun, old hand. Do you know the song "In dead earnest" by Lee Hays?

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Genie
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:07 PM

Ah, yes, Guest, I remember Opor Nockity well!

---
"9. Never introduce a song by saying something like "heres one I wrote this afernoon" or similar. " Um, yeah. LOL

Most of the advice here is great advice for all performers. But as Guest's last post points out, some of it doesn't apply to all singer-songwriters.

In fact, the thread title, when followed by some of the first pieces of advice, highlights a kind of pet peeve of mine:
a) the use of the term "singer-songwriter" to apply to people whose primary skill is as an INTRUMENTALIST
and
b) the assumption that a "singer-songwriter" MUST play an instrument or (worse assumption) play it well enough as a lead instrument to sustain a performance with instrumental breaks.

I recall Emmylou Harris, just to name one, proudly saying that she considers herself a very good rhythm guitarist but that she has never sought to be a lead guitarist. Now, Emmylou has a whole band backing her up, but I would hate to think artists like Emmylou would be discouraged from performing if they had to sing their songs a cappella or with a simple rhythm guitar background.

I would add that sometimes the "star" of a song is neither its lyrics nor its fancy instrumentals but its MELODY.   And when a melody is instantly memorable and catchy, I don't think the audience cares that they've never heard it before. (In fact, they will probably think they have!)

But I do agree with most of the points that have been made here.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:53 PM

And remember the old guitar player, Oppor Nockity--he only tuned once.

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:47 PM

You've got a tough crowd, there, Ernest--the rules you've set up have something in them to exclude almost every one--the requirement for instrumentals between numbers is a particular killer for acapella singers----and the requirements for doing familiar numbers exludes ethnic performers and "world music" types, as well as anyone who has developed a program of historical or nostalgic material--

As to the restrictions on original material--one of my students told me this story: A new, nameless band asked one night to play at their neighborhood pub--the group only had a few songs, all original--but when they played them, the crowded begged to hear them again--the group later named themselves "The Cure"--

All in all, it's best to let people do what they will--

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST,old hand!
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:51 PM

I know you are in 'Ernest' when you set these guide lines. (I'm sorry no pun was intended) I see where you are coming from, BUT you can't set guide lines as tight as these! Every concert, session, performance is different!Tuning your instrument doesn't ALWAYS mean 'tuning your instrument'! use it as a way to involve or introduce yourself or a quieter mood to your audience!Slip in a personal joke about yourself or how you came by the tune or song you are about to play. Sing your own compositions!! unless you do how are others ment to hear them? BUT build up the back ground to the song,as the song will lead into! ie: a funny or light hearted ballad, Joke about how it came to be composed or something light hearted enough to have the audience titter and 'keen' to hear the song. The same (or similar) should it be Political, sad, whatever!
Ernest, you are correct in what you are saying BUT don't be too rigid in the way you perform. NOT two performances are ever alike!!! Please don't think I am being too critical. This a good thread and one long over due. Well done OH. (old hand)

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:20 AM

Hey, Ernest:

All good advice (I'll make a couple of minor suggestions regarding your list in a minute.) I'd also add a comment that applies to all performers... the most obvious of all: each audience is different, so be ready to throw your set list out the window if you feel that you aren't connecting with them after the first two or three songs.
By the third song, you should have gotten to know a particular audience well enough to know what the're going to enjoy, just by their response. After many years of performing, I announced tongue-in-cheek that I'd decided that I wasn't go to do any more concerts(as an introduction to a "concert" I was doing.) I said that I thought I'd just come up and sing and play some songs, talk with the audience and we'd just enjoy ourselves. It somehow loosened everyone up. I stopped following a set list... had a list of potential songs and keys to look at for inspiration, but let the audience determine my set list by their response.

Any performer is always a performer on some level, even in a song swap in a living room. But, the stage patter, memorized introductions and one-liners get boring real quickly... for many performers, as well as their audience. Each performance should be unique, because each audience is unique.

As for breaking up the evening with instrumentals or songs that people can dance to, that's not realistic in most U.S. venues. You'd break your leg tripping over a folding chair. That said, a good performer (all of these comments seem to apply to more than singer/songwriters) paces an evening, sensing the mood of the audience. For a songwriter, it's helpful to mix in some better known songs of your own (if you've established some level of recognition) or of someone else's or a familiar traditional song.) Newer songs (self-written or not) carry better if mixed in with songs the audience knows. For pacing, it's good to break the mood periodically.. not every other song. Mix in enough songs with choruses to keep the audience with you, and don't string together too many ballads. I've heard (and booked) some wonderful traditional singers who made the mistake of doing two or three 20 verse murder ballads, or songs about historic battles in a row. I once heard a songwriter (who writes songs in a traditional style based on historical events almost exclusively) actually put several people sound asleep in a mid-afternoon workshop. He didn't vary the rhythm, or energy level from song to song.

For songwriters, never say "Here's a song that I wrote that you all know, so you can sing along with me." I've heard that introduction on occasion (and I'd never heard the song) and I thought it was amazingly conceited. Unless You wrote Skip To My Lou or She'll Be Coming 'Round The Mountain When She comes, there are bound to be people in the audience who've never heard you, let alone a particular song.

A favorite introduction that used to bug me in the 60's (used by songwriters and non-writers as well) was "I will now attempt to play." Man! If you're only going to attempt to play a song, get off the stage. Attempting is for high wire artists.

In my real-life, I was Director of a Museum. When staff members would come to me with an idea for something they wanted to do, my first question was always "Who is your audience?" Always start with who your audience is, whether you're a singer or singer/songwriter.

Good thread idea, Ernest. Keep 'em coming...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:18 AM

From: Midchuck - PM

"If you do songs in a number of alternate tunings, either learn to retune quickly, or do a Garnet Rogers and haul a whole slew of guitars. A set in which a third of the time is spent tuning is horrible."

I don't know though, I always enjoy seeing Martin Carthy ;-)

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:32 AM

And remember that nearly every one COULD write a song , but not every one can write a GOOD song .

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: GUEST,Sooz (at work)
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:39 AM

Some good advice there Ernest, I particularlty like number 4.
Could I add one for aspiring singer songwriters?
9. Never introduce a song by saying something like "heres one I wrote this afernoon" or similar. That really puts me off!

Subject: RE: Tips for singer/songwriters
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:20 AM

If you do songs in a number of alternate tunings, either learn to retune quickly, or do a Garnet Rogers and haul a whole slew of guitars. A set in which a third of the time is spent tuning is horrible.

Peter.

Subject: Hints for singer/songwriters (and others as well)
From: Ernest
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:17 AM

We have talked so much about singer/songwriters in Jerry Rasmussens thread "Folk music is for intellectuals" that I think it is time to talk with them.

Here are a few of my thoughts. Some apply mainly to singer/song-writers, others apply to other musicians as well. Some might be missing yet, because I didn`t think of them at the moment. Please add yours, so we have more happy audiences and more happy performers.

1. People don`t come for a show to be lectured. They come to be entertained.

2. If you are playing in front of a folk audience, remember that there are other forms of folk music people might also enjoy. Some concentrate more on the instrumental part than on the lyrics. So hone your abilities as an instrumentalist.

3. It is difficult to pay attention to lyrics that are new to us for a long time. So give us a break to contemplate them. A good way to achieve this is to play a few instrumentals in between. See #2 and do a few hornpipes, ragtimes ot whatever you feel fits in.

4. If you are not already an established artist you should not restrict yourself to your own songs. You can sing traditionals as well as songs from colleagues you like. This helps us to compare your abilities with that of others.

5. Folk audiences are active audiences most of the time. They often like to dance or join in. So give us a few songs we know (please not those that are overdone, though) and/or choruses we can join in with your own songs.

6. Communicate. I`ve seen good musicians being ignored by an audience because they did`nt talk to the people they were playing to. Let your introductions be entertaining too, watch your audience and try to get feedback during the break.

7. We are an informed audience. We have seen other artists and will compare you with them. Many of us sing or play an instrument too. This makes us more critical sometimes. Sometimes it will make us more forgiving, because we know that shit happens.

8. If you are coming back after having played a place before, avoid repetitions: change your set-list enough that we realize the difference. Don`t use the same jokes over and over again: it is disrespect. We understood them the first time.

Best wishes
Ernest