BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Kaleea
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:50 PM

I wish some of the rregular just folks could get together & figure out a way to make some electric cars which would be affordable for us poor folks. Maybe we're the ones who need them the most. How about a lottery to win the first 100 cars? Proof of poverty required?

Too bad the big auto companies recalled all the electric autos (most were leased but not sold)& tore 'em apart & junked them all, since most everybody who had 'em loved 'em, & didn't want to give 'em up, & they required no oil, much less maintenance & fewer parts over time. hmmmmm. what's wrong with this picture?

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:55 PM

Perhaps, Amos, the problem is not one of too little energy, but of too much entropy associated with many of the energetic subsystems.(?)

On a pedantic note - most people who say "energy" really mean "enthalpy." A more accurate usage would possibly be helpful for those who actually know what they're talking about; but one supposes that the colloquial inaccuracy does little harm as used by most of us here.

Here

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:54 PM

Efficiency of conversion is only a problem when there is a limited resource providing the original energy (although energy density is convenient for packaging).

The universe around us has nothing else in it BUT energy, fer goodness sake. The idea there is a scarcity of it is ridickle-dockle.
The winds, the tides, the shift of gravitic and magnetic fields, the sweeping solar storms, the ionosphere, the oscillations in every sound that rattles our streets and bodies as we go through our days, the heat from the sun and from the hot core of the earth, the fall of water down the planets gravity well, the boundless number of phtoons galloping through the atmospjhere... -- the list is practically endless. Not to mention the energy that ties the molecules around us into compounds and the nergy which bonds the nuclei of every atom to itself and the electrons around it to the nucleus.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 12:33 PM

For an additional music contact, Willie Nelson is operating few franchised fuel stops selling "bio diesel." Users have reported that it's pretty good. Unfortunately, bio diesel is more expensive to produce than "plain ol'" so it's viable only with currently available governemt subsidies. Willie quite likely will loss his ass - again.

There are numerous plants making ethanol, and nearly all newer US cars can use gasoline with a fairly high percentage of ethanol. All existing ethanol plants use corn or soybeans as the source material, and the corn to make a gallon of ethanol requires about a gallon of petroleum to produce the fertilizer to grow the corn, and corn requires massive irrigation in many areas where it's grown now.

Again, ethanol is only "cost competitive" with petroleum while government subsidies are in place.

An often ignored factor in the use of ethanol or ethanol containing gasoline is that the products cannot be distributed via pipelines that are in place, due to the problem of moisture absorption. All such fuels currently must be trucked in distribution (which uses a lot of fuel).

Research is ongoing to produce ethanol from cellulosic plant materials like grass, weeds and stems. This requires a separate process to break down the cellulose to starches that can then be fermented to alcohol. One such plant is in planning, but the estimated cost of construction is given as 5 times the cost of an "ethanol from grain" plant of similar capacity.

At least one research group believes that they can "genetically engineer" microbes that will combine the cellulose breakdown and fermentation steps into one "digestion," and they expect to have a "product" within about 5 years. One may hope.

A problem with biological ethanol production is that the alcohol that is produced kills the organism at relatively low concentrations, so constant removal (distillation, usually) is required, and concentration to higher purity is also needed. Genetic manipulations have already produced microbes capable of withstanding - and producing - alcohol concentrations at 5 or 6 times the level tolerated by any "naturally occuring" bacteria, and they are appearing in limited use.

The same researchers who are nearing production of a "combined capability" microbe to digest cellulose and ferment alcohol believe (they say - without revealing where they hold their tongue) that in 5 to 10 years they may be able to produce ^**microbes that will produce octane (gasoline) from weeds and stems.

Burning ethanol or gasoline releases carbon to the atmosphere, but growing plants extract carbon from the atmosphere. With a bio-fuel, the burning can't release more carbon than was fixed by the plants from which it's made, so the portion of fuel that comes from biological sources does result in a "zero sum" transaction - in theory. The next crop grown should "take back" as much carbon as is emitted by using the current crop as fuel - maybe.

^** These people are studying the specific components of the bacterial genome that contribute directly to a) keeping the bacterium alive, b) breaking down cellulose to digestible starches, and c) digesting the starches to produce "bug piss" that's the product wanted. Their anticipated approach will be to strip all genetic information out of a bacterial cell and reinsert only the genetic information needed for the intended use. The genetic components, they believe, will be built up from basic chemicals using currently known recombinant DNA chemistry methods. A living bug created from scratch (?) - sort of. Russian scientists "manufactured" a smallpox virus using similar methods about 15 years ago, using comparitively crude processes; so it doesn't sound as outlandish as it once did.

John

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 12:31 PM

Dave...there are already 'wind farms', and when the desire for cheaper, non-polluting power becomes stronger than the objection to windmills, there will be more.

Solar, wind, tides..etc...could really help.

(and Spaw..I'd offer to help with that list, but I doubt I'd have many objection to yours...*grin*)

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:53 AM

Not wanting to pee on anyones parade but how is the extra power required to charge these cars gomg to be generated? Anyone with a bit of basic physics will tell you that everytime something changes status energy is given off and lost. So, instead of getting petrol from crude oil (say 20% inefficiency) and powering a car (say another 20%) we are going to convert the fuel to electricity (and loose another 20%) before we change it to motor power?

No, sorry, wind powered cars are the way forward. Not sure of the efficiency of converting all those beans to enough wind for my personal use but I'm sure spaw has enough to spare...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Alice
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:31 AM

In the tv news segment I saw covering the car show in California where the Tesla Roadster was presented to the public, they stated that they will have a family sedan in three years on the market for the average car buyer. The high cost roadsters are just the first model being sold. It was on the evening news, CBS network, I think, and NBC and ABC covered it, too.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 11:18 PM

Chickens are gonna get real popular . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: MarkS
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 11:13 PM

My two legpower bicycle gets me around town just fine. These modes of transport for short (less than 2 miles) trips would eliminate the need for a lot of fuel, gas or electric.

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:00 PM

And if I could pick the half population that was left, it would be even better! Better yet, let's reduce it to about 20% of the current population and I'll start the list of who goes immediately!.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:18 PM

If even half the vehicles on the road on any specific day were electric, it would help a LOT...

and if we had only half the population, it would help even more.

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:11 PM

"Electric cars aren't pollution-free. In many parts of the country, the majority of electricity is produced by coal-fired electrical plants. Still, Musk claimed that the Tesla Roadster will produce half the carbon dioxide per mile of a hybrid car. Tesla is also working with solar panel companies to install panels at the homes of Tesla Roadster owners to help them power the car."

It's a start.

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:04 PM

Yeah, like how much did yer first computer cost??? 'Er the first electronic calculator with a printer...

Alice is right... The costs will go down, down, down....

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Alice
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:58 PM

John, the $100,000 models are just the first ones coming out, the sportscar that Governor Arnold can afford. They will be making a normal family sedan that is affordable for the rest of us in the future.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:35 PM

If you want efficiency, check of in The Other Thread

John

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:23 PM

I've watched this fascinating documentary a couple of times on my local PBS affiliate. Some pretty interesting vehicles.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:59 PM

There's nothing inherently expensive about what goes into an 'lectric car. There's more technology in a hybrid car. It's ramping up for the early ones that's going to absorb the ready. Thank god for hollywood stars, CEO's with speculative shares and crooked pols. They're financing the future.

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:22 PM

Alice,

You're part of a different mass than I am if you and your neighbors can afford $100,000 vehicles to pop around town in.

(Incidentally, the "estimated price information" that was posted when I looked yesterday appears to have been removed. They may have decided they need to hold back that info until the first round of hype gets out.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Alice
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:11 AM

Saw it on the news yesterday, and it is NOT the little short run electric cars you've seen in the past.
I want one of their family sedans that will be coming off the assembly line in a couple of years.
It goes 200 miles on one charge. Can plug in and charge anywhere there is an electric outlet,
like your garage overnight for instance.
I went to the web site right away after seeing it on TV. I've been hoping and waiting for
someone to design a good electric car for mass market, and now it is here!
Yay!!
teslamotors.com

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:18 PM

..apologies to Dave Van Ronk...

"Twinkle, twinkle, twinkle, little star
Up comes Brady in a 'lectric car
Got a mean look all 'round his eye
Gonna shoot somebody jus' to see them die"

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:02 PM

Well, let's examine the situation here...

Model A: Battery operated with batteries that can explode in one outta 1,000,000 batteries...

verses...

Model B: Which is powered with a highly combustable fuel: gasoline...

Hmmmmmm???

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:51 PM

"An Electric Car With Juice"

. . . and a side of toast, please.

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:50 PM

I can belive the exploding laptop batteries. I've had saftey recalls from Nikon on some batches of Lithium Ion rechargables, which had a tendancy to burst in to flames or explode when charged. I don't know the chemistry behind it, but the fact it is a batch thing implies slack quality control to me.

Bill you're right. You were thinking about more radical changes to car useage and ownership patterns than I was. Of course, we could both be right....

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:36 PM

Bah humbug back atachu naysayers...

Hey, things is gonna change whether youz likes it 'er not so don't act like yer danged parents and grandparents...

0 to 60 in 4 seconds with a 1 cubic foot motor is definately progress...

And, BTW, it's been proven that the Earth is not flat...

Jus' funnin'...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM

I'm way leary of the whole website. I spect it to be a pile of bogosity. Frinstance the size they give for their 100 plus horsepower 'lectric motator is less'n one foot by one foot by one foot. That there is the size for a normal 5-10 horse motor. And if it went 0-60 in four seconds I think that there'd be all the charge available. Maybe they think it's gonna coast the 250 miles so they be countin' on a followin' wind.

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:06 PM

" People have stuff."...yep, they do indeed. It 'may' happen that they have little choice. I am just predicting that this is the sort of thing that will need to be factored in planning a trip. Not all trips have the car full, and if you do have a full load, you may need to reserve the type on vehicle that is easier to load. Or one may own a small vehicle for local stuff, and rent/hire something else for the occasional trip.

(all of this, of course, is dependent on personal cars not being cheap or practical, and/or battery & fuel cell technology improving quite a lot.)

I know...we 'may' burn other type fuels...ethanol, etc....but current demand, along with fossil fuel decline, may require a lifestyle change that we can barely comprehend now.

It's good to at least look at the options.

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 05:16 PM

Sorry guys, but I'm still a bit nervous about them Lithium Batteries.

I know they say they're safe, and all that, but...

Well, actually they are pretty safe, but the guys who sell them don't seem to want to answer the questions about why all the exploding ones were "different."

CPSC has had 12 (at least) official recalls for Lithium battery packs just in laptops, since 1996 (10 in the last 5 years), and I haven't attempted to keep track of the ones in GPS units, cell phones, etc.

Those are all small batteries, but this monster is gonna need about 300+ pounds of batteries. Mulitply the 1.5 pounder at the link by 200?

And 250 mile range wouldn't get me to Kansas City and back (a local trip here) on a single charge.

John

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:08 PM

Sorry Bill, can't see it happening. You know why? People have stuff. They're not going to want to have to move it all between cars every time they need a top up.

Some kind of big standardised battery unit you can change over in a few minutes, maybe. Personally, I don't see a battery solution ever getting round the energy density problem, so hydrogen will be used.

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:04 PM

In the future, with battery-powered cars 'common', I predict there will be a booming business in 'rental' of some sort, where you undertake longer trips by changing vehicles at 'stations', much like the Pony Express in the early USA. The batteries will be recharged by the station, and you will head off in a recharged car.

It may be that only a few will actually own their own cars, and that you will have a 'vehicle credit card' where you can buy 'time' to suit your driving habits. Rates to vary according to size, luxuries, etc...

Not tomorrow...but in 30-40 years, who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM

Hmmm. Skycar, eh? I know some great fly fishing spots that take an hour or more of walking through thick woods. I wonder what the cost per trout would be?

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:55 PM

What a buncha pikers!

For only 10 x the price of your souped-up golfcart, you can get:

The Moller Skycar

Now all I've got to do is get the job of the future so I can buy one of these wonderful tings.

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:03 PM

All I can say is I WANT ONE!!!!!!!!!!
G.

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:12 AM

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

Its supposed to go on sale A YEAR from now. but 250 miles on a charge.

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:31 AM

Eggzackery...how long do the batteries last????? And what is the miles per charge???? What voltage batteries???

Subject: RE: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 09:00 AM

Did it then stop and plug in to an electric power point for 6 hours, so it could do it again?
Giok

Subject: BS: 0 to 60, 4 seconds on batteries....
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:49 AM

Hot danged!!!

Accordin' to an article in this mornin's Washington Post entitled "An Electric Car With Juice" a Silivon Valley company is introducing a new electric roadster capable of acceleratin' from zero to 60 mph in 4 seconds!!!

Yezzir. yezzir, yezzir...

Yes, and the new Tesla roadster goes on sale this week for a mere 100 grand!!!

Tad too pricey fir this ol' hillbilly but, all in all, it's a fine day for the electric car industry...

Heck, maybe they'll throw in a couple extra batteries in one and take on NASCAR??? Wouldn't that be something??? Of course the thing would have to have a big boom box wired into it to make real race car noise to keep Bubba happy...

Bobert