BS: Bushwacked - Four

Subject: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 02:16 PM

Okay, I started a new thread and am now going back #3 to try do a blue clicky thing. We will see if it works.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 03:05 PM

Works like a charm.

Try as one may, one just cannot reach a resoned accommodation with an irrational person.
Just a general observation.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 03:26 PM

Greg,

Clearly. Its hard enough to reach an accommodation with a rational person who can't see that your logic is clearly superior *BG*

You can make sure anyone else who might overhear/read the irrationality doesn't have any question that it is irrational.

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 04:21 PM

So I'll limit my response to the more rational argue-ers, and ignore the maniacs.

Troll, we agree on some things. But I do want to interject a few points into the argument. First of all, there is a big difference between a temporal association between two phenomena and a proven causal relationship. In order to prove that one trend causes another, you must control for all other factors that could be an influence. Tiresome, but that's the only way to reach a true scientific conclusion. If you were to try to prove that placement in day care (as an independent factor) causes delinquency, school problems, poor learning, or similar issues, I think you'd have your work cut out for you.

In kids who are failing in school, certain factors do come up over and over. And no, I don't have any articles to cite for you specifically, so I am in a sense breaking my own rule here. I'm working from memory. I will try to take a look through the literature this weekend and see what I can find.

There's a small group of kids with things such as Down's syndrome who have a very clear, biological reasons for doing poorly in school. The old chromosomes just didn't shuffle correctly. I'll leave them out of the discussion. For the rest, the kids with ADHD and behavior problems, a number of factors appear to correlate with poor performance in school and life.

Some of these, in no particular order: Prenatal exposure to alcohol or drugs, poverty, parents with a poor education, parents on welfare, a family history of learning problems, a chaotic household, mental illness in one or both parents, violence in the home, and neglect or abandonment by the primary caregiver. That last bit is meant to refer to the kids who really have been abandoned emotionally or literally by the parents -- the kids found living in crack houses and that sort of thing.

Daycare doesn't come up in this list. In fact, the really messed-up kids tend to get kicked out of day care after a few days. And for a kid in a bad household, their day care provider may give them more nurturing than their parent. It sucks, but it's true.

In families without the above factors, or with some ameliorating factors (i.e. poor, but well educated, or poor, but with good support systems) then outcomes are generally good. Yes, we still see things like mild learning problems, or adolescent acting-out, but very rarely do we see the catastrophic problems. And the final outcome for kids with mild learning problems but good homelife is excellent.

There are some other factors (and I can dig up a reference on this)that correlate with better-than-expected outcome. Female gender, high intelligence, a mentor, good reading skills, extended family, and a few others that I can't remember.

Daycare can be great or rotten, just like parents. If I had a kid, I would choose carefully, and look for a good ratio of kids to adults and a stimulating and safe environment. But parents who choose carefully have no reason to feel guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:01 PM

And, Ashcroft gets in...making me as angry and dismayed as when I started the first of these threads!

Sorry I haven't been able to keep up. Reading a lot on-screen has been a bit difficult this week as my middle ear has a whacked out otolith...nothing a few turnings won't fix, though!**BG**

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:36 PM

A job for a Dremel maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:45 PM

Kimmers,

My point was that you can't ignore them or the feed on their own irrationality. The logical fallacy is From Ignorance - The assumption that because something can't be shown to be false, it must be true. Just point out the irrationality as clearly as possible. IMO, anyway.

I agree that troll seems to reaching for something and not quite getting there. I know that family is very important to him (and to me too, come to that). Living in a college town, we have a fairly large number of single (by choice) parents. And the County used to have a very high teen pregnancy rate, all of which may help explain the more emotional than usual reaction.

Hope you'll share some statistics next week. In the meantime, some 'fun' facts from (in Florida). 85% of the 12-15 y/o juveniles picked up for criminal offenses (as opposed to curfew violations and the like) come from single parent homes.

Pilot programs show that if you can engage them and keep them occupied until around 8 PM, you can cut the delinquency rate by well over half. Most such programs are school based, btw. They work. They aren't funded at the State level after the federally funded pilot phase because the powers that be have determined that what's needed is harsher sentences. Compassionate conservatism in action. Oh, and part of the Juvenile Justice System has been privatized by under the same compassionate regard for our children. Now lets think about the logic of a private company being paid on a per service basis. The more people run the system, the more money I get and the more profit I make. Some incentive to try to reduce the numbers. And as their "per client cost" is generally lower (or at least the numbers they provide show same), they cab even claim to be saving the State money. After all, they don't create the juvenile delinquents.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Lucius
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:51 PM

MAV I'm sick of you flag wavers cursing government out of one side of your face while claiming all of America as your birthright. I'm a socialist, and damn proud of it. I like safe highways, I like a policeman to call if I have trouble and I like being able to petition my government to redress wrongs.

I work hard teaching kids in a Public School, because I believe in the right of all to a good education. I work ten hours a day. I drive an 84 Ford that was given to me rather than take it to a junkyard. I want more time for my children, and like many parents (I meet a few of them in my line of work) I'm stretched to the limit. Not all of us are dot.com millionaires, or would be if we had the choice. It's not independence, its a stinking selfishness like yours that is causing our society to crumble.

I agree that we could do better. We could start by realizing that depriving Blacks the right to vote in Florida is an injustice to all, and a failure of democracy. Then we could go on to look at the ogilarchy that appointed Bush, and ask if it serves the public interest. I pray for the day when we can get another liberal to stand up in the White House and remind us to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 09:34 PM

Wait a minute Folks! All this bad stuff is supposed to happen! It was profetized, so next time vote for Nader!!!wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 09:45 PM

Prophetized? I don't know. This stuff makes me as angry as anyone. It really gets me going! wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 09:48 PM

Profitized! That's the word! wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Troll
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:05 PM

In the recent hearings held by the Civil Rights Commission in Tallahassee, Fla. the NAACP et.al. did not produce a single legally registered Black Florida voter who was not allowed to vote.
Not one. NONE.
You probably didn't read about it since the mainstream media didn't give it much coverage. I guess it would only have been a story if their rights HAD been violated.
I found it on the Drudge Report.
I realize that there are other suits pending-Duval County in particular- but that's from a previous election.
If you think you want another JFK, clear the cobwebs out of your eyes and take a long look at what he did and at what he ACTUALLY accomplished. Remember, this was the man who absented himself from the Senate when McCarthy was censured so he wouldn't have to vote.Why? Because his father was even MORE anti-communist than McCarthy and John didn't want to offend Daddy. He might cut off the money. In fact, I believe that Joe McCarthy was godfather to one of the Kennedy children but I'm not positive.
Skeptic may know.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,sunshine 444
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:22 PM

Sen McCarthy was the Godfather of Bobby Kennedy's oldest child. He visited the family often in the Florida home.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:25 PM

I expect all good Mudcatters will surround the Alaska National Widlife Refuge to protect our future domestic oil reserves from premature exploitation! My oil furnace is on the blink and like the politically correct and environmentally thoughtful person I am, I'm burning green wood to make my chimney act as a natural scrubber! However, it's cold in here! wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:29 PM

Dear Lucy,

"MAV I'm sick of you flag wavers cursing government out of one side of your face while claiming all of America as your birthright"

It is our birthright, but we'll settle for just the red areas of the election 2000 map.

We're secretly planning to use global warming to melt the ice caps and flood the coastal blue areas (damn, I wasn't supposed to tell you that)

"I'm a socialist, and damn proud of it"

Ok.

"I like safe highways"

We flag wavers like dangerous highways, safe highways are for dopes. Now the Autobahn, pedal to the metal, that's a highway.

"I work hard teaching kids in a Public School, because I believe in the right of all to a good education"

As do I, where exactly do you find that right?

You could work just as hard in a private school teaching "education"

"I work ten hours a day. I drive an 84 Ford that was given to me rather than take it to a junkyard. I want more time for my children, and like many parents (I meet a few of them in my line of work) I'm stretched to the limit. Not all of us are dot.com millionaires, or would be if we had the choice"

If you made a million, you'd have half a million, that's a good reason to not make that choice (I guess).

"It's not independence"

Socialists don't have independence, you're just like the Borg (a little Trekkie lingo there) dependant on the government.

"its a stinking selfishness like yours that is causing our society to crumble"

What selfishness? Allowing parents to School choice is selfish?

Were you under the impression that I'm a fat cat? Ho Ho Ho!

What you selfish LSCs are doing is "depriving Blacks" in the inner city the opportunity to a decent and safe education.

They are begging for it and the GOP is going to deliver it to them, where the SELFISH self serving commucRATs have been taking their vote for granted and keeping them enslaved.

Once again the GOP will end slavery (this time from poverty and despair)

"I agree that we could do better. We could start by realizing that depriving Blacks the right to vote in Florida is an injustice to all, and a failure of democracy"

You got that right, any disenfranchisment happened in voting districts completely controlled by the failed democrats.

"Then we could go on to look at the ogilarchy that appointed Bush, and ask if it serves the public interest"

You mean the real votes that the cheating voting/election frauds despite their best efforts could not overcome?

"I pray for the day when we can get another liberal to stand up in the White House and remind us to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country""

First of all Clinton is not a liberal, he has such good job approval ratings for signing most of the CONTRACT WITH AMERICA into law.

(whispering) You're embarassing yourself, that is not a liberal quote, liberals believe in dependence on the government. JFK by today's standards was a philandering Right Wing Extremist!

Now Teddy! There's a philandering murdering liberal (extremist).

GO Get him AG Ashcroft! (Was he tried for the murder of Mary Jo Kopekne?)

Have a happy day

mav

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:38 PM

A caution about what follows. As a dyed in the wool liberal (and getting more so every day) I am not a Kennedy fan. Any venom is entirely intentional.

troll,

Delighted you deferred to me. I know what an effort it was. Joe was the godfather to Robert Kennedy's first born.

During the censure, JFK was in the hospital recovering from back surgery. He was offered the chance to have his statement of censure against Joe put into the record. He refused. In part to please Poppa Joe, in part because both John and Bobby Kennedy were strong McCarthy supporters. JFK as early as 1949 and Bobby as a minority counsel to Joe's committee investigating communism. Poppa Joe finally gave up on Joe M in 1956 (2 years after censure) and JFK then got around to adding his voice to the censure record.

At the '56 convention, Eleanor Roosevelt openly berated him for not taking a stand. And did it again in 1958 in an interview, unimpressed with his attempt to don the liberal mantle. Democratic Progressives (the LSCers of the day) in 1960 actively opposed his candidacy.

JFK was also a fan of Nixon.

An old friend and long-time liberal had this take on the famous "ask not what you can do...." sound-bite. He claimed that the logical extension of that was what we can do, is what the government tells us to do. And then, perhaps, what they tell us to think. If you think about it to long, there are some fairly ominous overtones to the statement.

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:46 PM

Senator forgoes Bathing, Body odor overcomes seatmates.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/default-20012223357.htm

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:48 PM

Mav, What are you teaching our kids in school? wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:59 PM

Dear wydat,

Marksmanship, Constitutional Appreciation, Wintertime deep woods survival, ballet and Bravo Sierra detection

Seriously, they need 3R fundamentals in K-6.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:00 PM

Those seem ok with me. Do you also teach them how to think for themselves? wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Matt_R
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:05 PM

C'mon people, we're making it now! Yeah yeah yeah!

--Richard Ashcroft

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:06 PM

Mav, Will you be taking a position in one of those Chritian Militia schools under the new regiem?

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:08 PM

C'mon guys & gals: Please Don't Feed The Animals!

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:10 PM

Sorry! wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:11 PM

"Do you also teach them how to think for themselves"

That would come under BS detection.

"Will you be taking a position in one of those Chritian Militia schools under the new regiem?"

All indicators point to no.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:15 PM

So, let's embellish this conversation. How about "Creation" vrs. "Evolution" for a topic??? wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:30 PM

Creation vs. evolution? Oh, boy... Assuming that was serious suggestion, here goes.

I take a compromise position that will probably satisfy no one. I believe with my heart that God created me and knows me, but I don't believe that the world was created in a literal six days. I've always felt that evolution was and is the tool of a clever God, who didn't want it to be too easy for us to believe in Him. One cannot prove the existence of God logically, after all... where is the Mystery, then?

Was my literal biologic ancestor an ape-like creature? Current research certainly is consistent with that. Am I still created in the image of God? You betcha.

This has interesting implications for education, to say the least. I like to see kids given the chance to study the evidence, then make up their own minds. Scientific questioning should begin in youth.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:35 PM

I agree with you kimmers on all points accept one. Ienstine proved the existence of God. This is not a joke! wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:38 PM

He did it of course with mathematics and reason... far from my modus operandi. wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:45 PM

troll,

"In the recent hearings held by the Civil Rights Commission in Tallahassee, Fla. the NAACP et.al. did not produce a single legally registered Black Florida voter who was not allowed to vote"

Not surprising as that's not what they were looking for. As the claim is non-falsifiable, why would anyone bother. They did talk to a number of voters (per CNN anyway) who were purged from the rolls as felons when they weren't.

MAV,

"Socialists don't have independence, you're just like the Borg (a little Trekkie lingo there) dependant on the government"

As are capitalists. And communists and ........all the other ists an isms. Government is a function. Socialists want one set of functions, capitalist another. You can claim that education isn't listed as a function of the government. True. The constitution mentions nothing about education. It doesn't mention a lot of things. Deliberately. The intent wasn't to make a nice, exhaustive list of all the duties and responsibilities of the Government. It was to say, here are specific duties we want you d\to carry out. If we (as in "We the People"), want you to do more, here are the rules under which you have to operate. Congress makes the laws and the Supreme Court makes sure they follow the general principals. If we don't like the laws, elect different lawmakers.

"What selfishness? Allowing parents to School choice is selfish? " They have the choice now. Under your logic of choice, as education shouldn't be a function of the government, why should a parent have to send their child to school at all?

"What you selfish LSCs are doing is "depriving Blacks" in the inner city the opportunity to a decent and safe education"

This does not compute. A ringing indictment, to be sure. Proof would be nice.

"You got that right, any disenfranchisment happened in voting districts completely controlled by the failed democrats. "

Duval County comes to mind. Traditional votes republican. Has a republican Mayor. The majority of the Palm Beach County Commission is also Republican.

"First of all Clinton is not a liberal, he has such good job approval ratings for signing most of the CONTRACT WITH AMERICA into law"

Plus he associated with known Republicans and noted conservatives. Just what is he then?

"whispering) You're embarassing yourself, that is not a liberal quote, liberals believe in dependence on the government. JFK by today's standards was a philandering Right Wing Extremist! "

And by the standards of the '60's he was a slightly right of center moderate. Not exactly a big secret. Yes, people view him as a progressive liberal. People view Newt Gingrich as the very model of modern southern conservative. Or did, anyway, until his all to human foibles clashed with the public image he'd developed.. Whether JFK was or wasn't a liberal has nothing to do with Lucius wanting one in the White House. As said earlier, I'm not a fan of JFK or his famous sound-bite but I want a liberal in the White House too. (Just my kind of Liberal)

"GO Get him AG Ashcroft! (Was he tried for the murder of Mary Jo Kopekne?) "

No. Was Nixon tried for Watergate or Cambodia? Or Bush and Company for Iran/Contra? Seems to me our legal system decided the evidence wasn't sufficient for a trail. Except for the Iran/Contra Group who got pardoned by Bush Sr. Kimmers,

"I like to see kids given the chance to study the evidence, then make up their own minds. Scientific questioning should begin in youth. "

Come on. Think for themselves. Then they'll start demanding things like a living wage, 40 hour work weeks and who knows what else. I mean think what you propsal might mean. Voting on the issues. And actually bothering to vote. Developing a strong sense of self-worth and self-reliance so the bs from all sides of the political spectrum is seen for what it is.

You really need to be careful. With Ashcroft in, can developing a program to locate politically non-conservative ideas on the internet and deal harshly with the malefactors be far behind. Its people like you who make me think there really is hope.

Regards,

John

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:48 PM

Matt, I love your enthusiasm for a good fight! wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:49 PM

Creation versus Evolution?

Can't say I believe in either one. :-)

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:54 PM

Ah, the three 'R's!

Okay, I'll be the first to admit that education has some silly fads. So does medicine. So does management... my God, does the business admin culture come up with some weird stuff!

The very best teachers teach children according to the learning style of the child. If you're not familiar with the theories of personality put forth first by Jung and later by Meyers and Briggs, and most recently David Keirsey... there is a lot of evidence that children learn in different ways. Teachers, and school administrators, teach in different styles. You can have good matches and bad matches.

Most teachers and school administrators are SJ Guardian types. They are traditionalists, who believe in phonics and workbooks and memorization. A large minority are NF Idealist types. These are the folks who like to teach by discussion and oral presentations and unusual methods. School district policies and curriculum tends to reflect the beliefs of whichever group is in power, so to speak.

Kids need a balance. Yes, they need to learn to read. But the result may be more important than the method. A precocious child who already knows how to read isn't going to find 'phonics' very interesting; she probably is a visual reader by the second or third grade. Kids need to experience the JOY of reading as well as the drudgery.

Frankly, I consider myself lucky to have started the first grade in 1972, in a school that was flexible. In addition to the 'basics' (which I learned very well) I learned music (learned to play the ukulele in the third grade!), calligraphy, story writing, how to use a microscope, how to keep an ant farm... oh, so many magical things. We learned all about Transactional Analysis, the 70's 'warm fuzzies and cold pricklies' analogy to teach kids how to be nice to each other. And yes, there was plenty of time for math and spelling and reading.

I digress. The best teachers have many tools in their teaching toolbelt. If one method does not work, they pull out another. Good teaching is done on the fly, by the seat of the pants, almost by instinct. Anybody can get a class to repeat phonics ad nauseum; a real teacher knows when to chuck the lesson out the window -- once in a while -- to give students some magical experience. I ask you all: think back to your own school days, and remember which teachers you loved.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:00 AM

Skeptic, You're a bit convoluted from where you come from, but I will think about what you have said. The Internet thing has got me worried! wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:12 AM

Kimmers,

When I worked in health care the term was "Management theory de jour". Sometimes it was almost literally true.

Knowing how to reach the child is part of the art of teaching. I had a few duds but many of my teachers were artists of the first order. Today it seems that those "in power" are looking for technicians, not artists.

Do you have standardized testing in your schools. Do you think the standardize test show much of anything?

wdyat12,

As troll will probably pipe in and tell you, I can get a lot more convoluted than that. As I don't see/like simple answers to complex issues, its an occupational hazard. That and a lot of stuff refers or infers back to earlier posts on the first three parts of bush-wacked. And I may have tied my thinking in a knot as I post to several forums and sometimes I forget what I've said where.

Question are cheerfully answered and positions explained.

And if I'm ever wrong, I'll be happy to admit it :-).

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:12 AM

Right on kimmers!!! there is no drudgery in reading except without your glasses! You made some real good points. I always teach "on the fly...by the seat of my pants." wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:19 AM

John, I can tell you really care about kids. Sometimes it's so hard to get to them. wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:24 AM

Right on Sceptic!!! Time to put on my glasses I think! wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 01:03 AM

Why do I seem to close out each thread. Am I that bad a listener? wdyaT12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 01:13 AM

wydat12,

Trolls Sovereign Test for Paranoia - You know you're paranoid when you can't think of single thing that's your fault.

Skeptics Surefire Flame Predictor - You know you're going to get flamed when you can't think of a single one of your opinions that's wrong and want to mak esure the world knows.

As I book, If you haven't read it, I'd suggest "Voodoo Science".

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 01:23 AM

John, "Voodoo Science" sounds like a book I might enjoy! do you have anymore recommendations? Woody

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 01:27 AM

Woody at 12 (wdyat12). Oh my Gosh! I let the cat out of the bag!!! wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 01:31 AM

<>

While I sort of agree with you, on some of this. We must remember that the prime function of the Bill of Rights is not to empower the Government. But it is to LIMIT the powers of Government.

Five of the original States insisted on limitations to Government power and clear protections for the rights of the citizens.

Please note the IXth and Xth Amendments.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

§§ We must remember that WE, the Citizens, have the only RIGHTS. Government has sharply delineated duties and powers; ALL OTHERS are reserved to the States and CITIZENS.

Yer Pal, Casey

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 01:44 AM

Dear Guest, So, You're for States' rights! Are you also for the mentally ill having the right to vote??? Yours, wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 01:50 AM

Dear Guest, This is no joke! wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 01:55 AM

Casey,

Absolutely. the post was getting too long to go into the Bill of Rights. And we forget it all to easily for all sorts of valid, logic reasons....until its to late. Giving away freedoms is a hell of a lot easier than taking them back.

IX gets forgotten by everyone. (Including the SC). Why argue that the penumbra of the Bill of Rights guarantees a right to privacy? I'd go at it from the other way: we have the right because nothing in the Constitution says we don't or gives the Government much say over it. Then the Staes (usually more responsive to the people, could decide what (if any) limits or controls were needed.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 02:47 AM

Skeptic, I recently got off a pickett line at Bath Iron Works, (a General Dynamics Subsidiary) We had more rights not working for this conglomerate than with it. The strike lasted two months and the workers felt a genuine pride in stopping the production of "state of the art" death ships (Aegis Destroyers). I always carry a copy of the Constitution in my lunchbox to flaunt at the corporate lackies that couldn't manage a lunch break. We all are in serious trouble here. When is a Contract not a Contract? I'll tell you here that America is in the same boat. "We the People" can not tolerate any more disreguard for the Prime Document of our Nation. wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,RCBZ
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 08:16 AM

Lucius,

" I'm a socialist, and damn proud of it."

Then why are you living in a Capitalist country?. Sounds like Cuba might more in line with your ideology.

"I like being able to petition my government to redress wrongs."

Wrongs by whom?... The Govt.?, or some group you don't agree with?. You need to clarify that statement so it can be anwered.

"I want more time for my children,"

Change occupations to one that would allow that to happen.

"We could start by realizing that depriving Blacks the right to vote in Florida is an injustice to all,"

The Florida courts have found otherwise, they were not deprived the right to vote. Don't forget that most of the complaints came from Democratic counties. Sounds like the Democrats were depriving them their right to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 10:03 AM

Then why are you living in a Capitalist country?. Sounds like Cuba might more in line with your ideology.

Ah, Nostalgia! Hadn't heard anyone-outside of a bad joke- spew "America: Love It or Leave It!!" in more than 30 years! Who sez right-wingers have no sense/knowledge of history?   ;-)

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 10:50 AM

"The Florida courts have found otherwise, they were not deprived the right to vote"

The Florida Supreme Court said their were problem, the US Supreme Court said their weren't. The Governor's Special Commission on Election Reform has testimony to the contrary.

There are several issues. Thanks to a less than competent firm, some voters where purged from voter registration lists as convicted felons (which they weren't). The US Civil Right Commission is looking in to that (among other things). An interesting side-light: when the State hired the firm to purge the data bases (the one that screwed up so badly) the State's Supervisors of Election organization drafted a memo (well before the election) outlining the problems with the firms work and sent it to the Secretary of State, Ms. Harris. Nothing was done. This is the same Ms. Harris who announced on Nov 9th (or there about) that there was no evidence of anything being wrong with the election system. Now, people are attributing all sorts of motives (from politics to racism) to the fiasco.

Florida is one of 14 states that doesn't restore voting rights to convicted felons once they have completed their sentence. Blacks are heavily represented in this population. (because they commit and are convicted of crimes at a higher rate). To some people, this is evidence of racism. I don't think that was the intent of the law. I do think it's a stupid and dangerous law.

And finally there are the reports of deliberate interference with people getting to the polls, records (the affidavits in Duval County) being destroyed in violation not only of the election code but of the Florida Public Records Act, the faulty voting machines problems and inconsistent standards for dealing with rejected ballots (consistent standards being a major issue with the Supreme Court).

People were 'deprived' of their right to vote in the sense that people who should have been allowed to vote, weren't. The issue at law (in the lower Courts in Florida) was whether it was sufficient to invalidate results. The issue in equity is: How many voters being deprived of their right to vote does it take before its wrong.

"Don't forget that most of the complaints came from Democratic counties. Sounds like the Democrats were depriving them their right to vote"

The correct modifier is "some", not "most" if you're talking about the affiliation of elected officials. Does who's to blame make it any more or less right

I'll offer this on your "love it or leave it" philosophy.

The United States is a Democracy by the stated will of the people (through the Constitution). Capitalism is just an economic system we happen to have. We could as easily have a socialistic economy without violating the Constitution. The right of Free Expression is one of the hallmarks of our system. Within very, very broad limits, people are free to advocate whatever views they want. Applying you r logic to your statement, I would suggest that if you find the exercise of constitutionally guaranteed rights in this county to be so personably disturbing, you might want to find another country mandates more conformity of thought. That, however, is my opinion and your choice, not something I or the government can or should enforce.

Regards,

John