BS: Bushwacked - Four

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 11:07 AM

wdyat12,

As a professed (confessed/) cynic, I always remember that one of the motives of the founding fathers was to preserve their rights, prerogatives, perks and properties. Which they tried to incorporate in the Constitution Originally, there were fairly stringent limits on who could vote. No property, no right to vote. Basing the exercise of rights on a sliding scale indexed against how much you are worth has a lot of historical basis. Its wrong (imnsho). It just wont go away.

Corporations seem to have forgotten that a workforce who feels like they are valued (not just cogs to be paid) are far more productive.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Lucius
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 01:47 PM

I find it amusing that Right wing extremists often speak of their "American" rights, but rarely use the word "American" responsibility. I suppose that in their survivalist POV responsibility is for the next guy, not them.

Considering how their freedom was won, they should be on their knees daily in gratitude that the founders of our freedom were responsible enough to create a system whereby the "People of the United States... [would]... promote the general Welfare", even if a statement like this smacks of socialism. I suppose they have in in for Christ for promoting socialism as well.

As far as the "Move to Cuba" comment, I have no need to deride such a ridiculous statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 06:34 PM

Hmm, things are slowing down here... so I thought I'd pass along something about education.

My husband visited a site today that supplies books for home-schoolers. I found it extremely spooky. Public education may get goofy at times, but at least it reflects a diversity of opinions. These guys are putting out books that seem one step short of brainwashing.

And how the heck are they putting a "Christian" (read: right-wing political ideology) spin on MATH??? or CHEMISTRY??

Here's the site:

Clickety-bloo

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 06:42 PM

I should add: to read their catalogue, click on "products" and you can download it from there. You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader.

I especially like the little biographies of George Washington that they are selling. You think that they mention the old boy's whiskey still?

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,SeanM, moving from computer
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 07:24 PM

How 'bout his hemp crops?

There's legitimate debate over why he grew them. Some of his techniques apparently are really only feasible in the light of growing for smoking...

M

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 08:05 PM

kimmers,

Tried to look at the catalogue. Either it doesn't like Acrobat 4.0 or I'm on an 'enemies' list somewhere. I've seen similar stuff at friend's houses who home school. I've also seem some really good stuff that puts some of the text-books used today to shame.

Mainstream text-book publishers try to appease all the special interest groups. There was a recent news story about the Prentice Hall science series that, aside from the usual proofing areas, misstated basic scientific laws.

A couple of Middle School history texts I've seen paint a picture of the explorers and colonist's that are ready fro a prime-time mini-series. They're painted as brave, adventurous with a few minor flaws thrown in to flesh them out. I had an opportunity to look at six or seven different history texts (supposedly the cream of the crop) being considered locally and they were about as bland, one sided and simplistic as they could be without omitting the text entirely and just having pictures.

The Boards of Education don't seem to mind as their criteria for the success of teachings is passing standardized tests. Text books are written to address the core concepts required by the State (Florida's used to be available on-line) The standardized tests are geared to the core concepts. Reading the standards lulls you into a false sense of security. A little time with them and you realize that there's no depth. Just pre-packaged info-bites that will show up later on competency tests.

Sean,

Was smoking of hemp stigmatized back in the good old days? Drinking alcohol wasn't,I seem to recall, in part because getting potable water was a problem.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 08:25 PM

John, sorry you couldn't look at the site. I read the info on some of the textbooks, and was baffled. I expect there to be big differences in liberal vs. conservative viewpoint on subjects such as history or economics, but not when it comes to the hard sciences. That's what puzzled me. I'm tempted to order a book or two on subjects I know a lot about, just because I'm curious.

As far as the whiskey still -- yup, views about alcohol were very different then. Plain water was viewed with suspicion by the colonials; it was thought that cold water caused cramps and even death. Most people drank rum or whiskey in the very early days, then beer or cider when the beer became better. It was a long time before any decent wine was made in this country.

No, I'm not scandalized by the idea of ol' George making whiskey. But I'm betting that the authors of that little biography would never mention the fact, nor anything else in the same vein. To explain that standards were once different, one has to admit that standards are not carved in stone and that a certain practice may be all right in one situation but not in another.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 08:40 PM

kimmers,

Science I can see. It's easy to distort things (not just evolution) by both sides of the spectrum. The religious right by omitting and downplaying anything counter to the bible and the ultra-left with claims that science and scientific methodology are invalid as ways of learning about/explaining the physical world.

Even math. You could do it through the word problems....If it takes 5 RRer's, 2 years to infiltrate and sanitize the curriculum in a public school, how many would it take to accomplish the same in 14 months?)

Chemistry and Physics? I'd like to know that myself. The books I saw were pretty straight forward. Especially the Chemistry. The Physics text avoided most of quantum mechanics, but even public school texts don't get into it or non-linear math either.

Is it really any wonder we're doomed to repeat the mistakes of a history we're not teaching?

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 09:13 PM

Dear Skeptic,

"The United States is a Democracy by the stated will of the people (through the Constitution)"

Pardon my begging, it never has been, it never will be.

Democracy would require every citizen to vote on every little bit of minutia legislation every day (they just barely come out to vote for candidates)

Can you find the word democracy in the Constitution?

"Capitalism is just an economic system we happen to have"

"Capitalism" is a word coined by Marx and used since then as a derogatory term to deride economic freedom.

American free enterprise is the entity born of economic freedom and is a natural phenomenon of human nature.

"We could as easily have a socialistic economy without violating the Constitution"

Since socialism requires government participation (and partial ownership) in business, I don't think you are correct. Any government ownership of Wall Street Securities starts down that road.

"Originally, there were fairly stringent limits on who could vote. No property, no right to vote"

How about, no paycheck stub, no address, on welfare, got felonies...no right to vote.

I don't think the takers should be picking the pockets of the makers.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 09:15 PM

Lucius,

"I find it amusing that Right wing extremists often speak of their "American" rights, but rarely use the word "American" responsibility"

Well then you haven't been listening very well.

It's a citizen's duty to cast their INFORMED vote.

It's the parent's responsibility to educate their children.

It's a woman's responsibility not to risk getting pregnant until she's capable of being "responsible" (married)

It's a man's responsiblilty to provide for any children he's sired.

It's a citizen's responsibility to be properly trained in the safe operation and ownership of their firearms.

It's the parent's responsibility to raise respectful, thoughtful and obedient children so they may become the good citizens and leaders of tommorrow.

There are some extra-responsibilities too, like community or faith based organizations which can take care of and place unwanted children in loving homes, instead of just killing them.

"Considering how their freedom was won, they should be on their knees daily in gratitude that the founders of our freedom were responsible enough to create a system whereby the "People of the United States... [would]... promote the general Welfare", even if a statement like this smacks of socialism"

Uh....many of those "right wing extremists" fought for and many died on behalf of your freedom. They take an oath to DEFEND the Constitution.

Since you are a teacher, please, understanding that words mean things, note it says "promote" not PROVIDE!

Also note "welfare" means "how you're getting along" not a free handout from the government. If you are working, totally self-reliant and "comfortable", it could be said that you welfare is good.

"I suppose they have in in for Christ for promoting socialism as well"

That would be CHARITY by the church, where it belongs.

"As far as the "Move to Cuba" comment, I have no need to deride such a ridiculous statement"

What's so ridiculous about that? Castro thinks he's a socialist, so did Stalin.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 09:17 PM

Greg F

"Ah, Nostalgia! Hadn't heard anyone-outside of a bad joke- spew "America: Love It or Leave It!!" in more than 30 years! Who sez right-wingers have no sense/knowledge of history"

Some right wingers had it said to them in their youthful days of ideology. You know the saying..."If at age 20 etc"

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Troll
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM

Most of the teachers don't KNOW the history they are teaching, let alone the history they are not teaching. They are not required to know anything about history. "Just teach what's in the book."

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM

Kimmers,

First understand I'm not particularly Religious Right, but I'm glad they're on our side.

"My husband visited a site today that supplies books for home-schoolers. I found it extremely spooky"

It would be if you are an anti-christian bigot.

Not all home schoolers are doing it just because they are Christian. We have some leftie Yuppies who are into it "big time"

"Public education may get goofy at times, but at least it reflects a diversity of opinions"

Since they recognize it is their right to raise their own children as they see fit (not the state's) they don't want that PC claptrap being foisted on their kids"

"These guys are putting out books that seem one step short of brainwashing"

All education is "brainwashing", they want the kids brainwashed their way, not yours.

"And how the heck are they putting a "Christian" (read: right-wing political ideology) spin on MATH??? or CHEMISTRY??"

Well,

"No-wrong-answer-as-long-as-you-feel-good-about-yourself" MATH would not be tolerated.

"Man made global warming" CHEMISTRY probably doesn't cut it either.

As far as "Christian" (read: right-wing political ideology)" goes;

There is also a RELIGIOUS LEFT, they are, among others, the black Babtists who always vote democrat.

We, RWEs, now plan as our next trick to bring them into the fold. (see: "W" meets with Black Caucus and Black pastors)

They have much more in common with the Golden Rule Christian Conservatives than they do with the perverts, pornographers, felons, thieves, liars, drug dealers and murder/borts that are associated with BILL CLINTON and the rest of the DNC!!!

I welcome those black "country preachers" with their halleluja congregations and pounding gospel music. I'd like to have them on our side too.

Besides, they have 12% of the vote.

Now that's dangerous.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 10:01 PM

Boy, I sure wish my public-school math classes had been no-wrong-anwer-as-long-as-I-felt-good-about-myself!! Gee, I wouldn't have had to work nearly as hard at grinding out those math assignments and studying for all of those exams. It was hard and I was challenged.

And before you comment that things have all changed... I was in high school from 1980-84. The public school/private religious school debate was going very strong then; many of the parents at my church were sending their kids to private schools. They were very open about the reason: they wanted to control the content of what their kids were learning. No evolution and no sex ed.

Interesting enough, not one of the kids in our church youth group (Baptist) who attended the Christian high school (about half of them) went on to college in the years that I was going there. Many of the rest of us went to college... but my brother and I, from a 'non-Christian' home, were the only ones who graduated. My Christian-high-school girlfriends were pretty much all married by age twenty. Oh, and several of the girls from the most conservative backgrounds were pregnant when they married. Ignorance of the facts of sex education didn't protect them, now, did it?

Yes, I am a Christian, not an 'anti-Christian bigot'. I am not afraid or embarrassed of my faith. But God gave me a brain and I am going to use it!

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 10:04 PM

Troll, while I would agree that teacher education needs to be better -- much better -- the training and ability varies widely. To say that 'teachers aren't required to learn history' is about as accurate as saying that 'doctors don't learn anything about nutrition'. That's one I hear all the time. Gee, what was I doing in that interminable nutrition course?

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 10:50 PM

Kimmers,

Well I guess you told me.

Your HS experience is about 180 degrees different from mine, but then again I graduated HS in 1969.

regards,

mav

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,ChicagoJohn
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:47 AM

"I want more time for my children, and like many parents (I meet a few of them in my line of work) I'm stretched to the limit."

If you are stretched for time, then why are you socialist?

"Not all of us are dot.com millionaires, or would be if we had the choice. It's not independence, its a stinking selfishness like yours that is causing our society to crumble."

Beg pardon, but socialism is much more the politics of selfishness then any other political party. Socialism says- "What is yours is also mine" If that isn't selfish, I dunno what is.

"We could start by realizing that depriving Blacks the right to vote in Florida is an injustice to all, and a failure of democracy."

After the investigation of Florida by Democrats, they found 1 (ONE) person who had said that they had been denied the right to vote. That is not depriving blacks the right to vote. Assuming that the 1 (ONE) person was telling the truth, it does not form a pattern of discimination.

"I pray for the day when we can get another liberal to stand up in the White House and remind us to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"."

Yeah? As in the VERY unselfish "Can I have $650,000 a year for an apartment?" Clinton?

Do tell.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,ChicagoJohn
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 01:04 AM

"Government is a function. Socialists want one set of functions, capitalist another."

Close, but as Clinton said, no cigar. Socialists want more functions. Capitalists a lot less.

"The constitution mentions nothing about education. It doesn't mention a lot of things. Deliberately. The intent wasn't to make a nice, exhaustive list of all the duties and responsibilities of the Government. It was to say, here are specific duties we want you d\to carry out."

The Constitution is very specific on what government shouldn't do. But you can't seriously argue that the founding fathers would be *for* giving away air-conditioners. If they knew that we would be considering such things, they certainly would have stopped it from happening.

"Plus [Clinton] associated with known Republicans and noted conservatives. Just what is he then?"

A used car salesman.

"Come on. Think for themselves. Then they'll start demanding things like a living wage, 40 hour work weeks and who knows what else."

I have a bunch of problems with the above statement. The most successful "kids" today are from the internet era. They work longer then 40 hours a week of their own accord. They do so because they are smart, and make good money. The people in this world who make the most money do NOT stick to a 40 hour week.

"With Ashcroft in, can developing a program to locate politically non-conservative ideas on the internet and deal harshly with the malefactors be far behind."

Are you kidding me???

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,ChicagoJohn
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 01:10 AM

"Florida is one of 14 states that doesn't restore voting rights to convicted felons once they have completed their sentence. Blacks are heavily represented in this population. (because they commit and are convicted of crimes at a higher rate). To some people, this is evidence of racism. I don't think that was the intent of the law. I do think it's a stupid and dangerous law."

Why do you think it's stupid to stop felons from voting?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,ChicagoJohn
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 01:13 AM

"Corporations seem to have forgotten that a workforce who feels like they are valued (not just cogs to be paid) are far more productive."

On the contrary, most corporations pay their most valued people very well. I have a friend who works on firewalls. He gets paid very, very, well.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 01:17 AM

And the Clintons have 2 houses to boot; one in NY, one in DC. Plus Secret Service protection. Plus the Mrs. in the Senate, with her salary and perks. Not to mention Bill's "retirement" from the Presidency.

And, she/they are not even really legal residents of NY.....she has been a resident of DC for 8 yrs, and Arkansas before that. (In Wyoming, this would not constitute Residency for tax, hunting, voting, etc. priviliges)

Both of the Clintons lost a lot of my respect over the Senate/Real Estate deal and the Pelitier Pardon. Not to mention the WhiteWater thing. At the time, I did not put a lot of stock in that, but now????????

It will be interesting to see just what Ms. H. Clinton does in the next few years. I did, at one point, have hopes for her Health Plan........

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 09:53 AM

Mav,

You're quite correct. We have a representative Republic. I was going more for the spirit than the letter. "Capitalism is just an economic system we happen to have" I was using the world to describe an economic system without implication of right or wrong. "American free enterprise is the entity born of economic freedom and is a natural phenomenon of human nature" Huh?. I understand the sentiment, just not the logic. "Natural phenomenon? " How so. Nature (ecological systems in general) tend to cooperation and diversity. Mutualism and symbiotic relationships are far more common than the contrary. In an ecological system, when something interferes with one element of the overall population, the system will return to its prior stability (and maintain the same ratios of species). The analogy can only be carried so far in dealing with people, but it gives an indication that cooperation may be the natural order of things.. Given tax incentives, tax breaks, tariffs and all the other government programs to benefit "free enterprise", we don't seem to have that here, either. When we were closer (the 1800's and early 1900's)), the consequences ran contrary to the principals of the constitution. "Since socialism requires government participation (and partial ownership) in business, I don't think you are correct. Any government ownership of Wall Street Securities starts down that road". Nothing in the Constitution prohibits the Government from owning property. If our elected representatives pass a law to that effect (there are currently some laws to the contrary), then we could. "How about, no paycheck stub, no address, on welfare, got felonies...no right to vote." Because all the people you list are part of "We the People"...who decided, through constitutional amendment, that property rights(among other things) weren't going to be a criteria for who votes. You don't have to like all the People, how they live or how they think, but if you accept the Constitution as currently enacted, you play by the rules. Your prescription also moves further away from democratic ideal. If you value the idea of inalienable human rights (in part as listed in the Bill of Rights) then why propose an oligarchy? History shows they aren't very supportive of ideas like individual rights and sentiments like "We the People." "I don't think the takers should be picking the pockets of the makers" Should makers be picking the pockets of makers? Under your theory, should I have had to subsidize the Chrysler government loan? Bail out the savings and loan. Suffered higher car prices because of import tarriffs. Should their be export tarrifs?

You seem to look at valid problems in our society and see solutions. And not consider possible consequences of those solutions.

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:06 AM

Hmmm...mav seems to be undergoing a form of mitotic division.......or perhaps its budding? Possibly MPD.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:54 AM

Mav,

"It's a citizen's duty to cast their INFORMED vote" I think that citizens should be informed about the issues before they vote. I think that citizens should vote. It is their right, not their duty. Do you think there should be penalties if people don't vote? That's one possible implication of the term "duty".

"It's the parent's responsibility to educate their children" Does society have a responsibility to ask for a certain quality of that education?

"It's a woman's responsibility not to risk getting pregnant until she's capable of being "responsible" (married) " And the man has no responsibility? I'm sure others will have lots to say on that. The implication of your statement, however, shows a profound disrespect for both men and women.

"It's a man's responsibility to provide for any children he's sired." Ah, having bourne the child, the women's job is done?. By "provide", do you mean provide materially only? And does the community have any responsibilities here. Forget the government. Does the Church? Boy/Girl Scouts. Little League? What if the woman works and the man stays home? What if all the man does is provide materially?.

It's a citizen's responsibility to be properly trained in the safe operation and ownership of their firearms. Damn. We agree on something. "It's the parent's responsibility to raise respectful, thoughtful and obedient children so they may become the good citizens and leaders of tomorrow.". Respect is earned. Politeness is owed. (IMO). Thoughtful is nice. Obedient? To what or to whom? Obedient to the internal set of values, ethics, morals and beliefs I've helped my son develop? Sure. Willing to accept the consequences of those beliefs, that to. Blind obedience, even to positive and good things, is very dangerous. Solutions and consequences, again. They go hand in hand. "There are some extra-responsibilities too, like community or faith based organizations which can take care of and place unwanted children in loving homes, instead of just killing them" The criteria imposed for adoption in this country have little to do with the loving nature of the home. "Uh....many of those "right wing extremists" fought for and many died on behalf of your freedom. They take an oath to DEFEND the Constitution." Freedom is won, or lost, by the day to day actions of its citizens. The sacrifice of those who fought an died must never be forgotten. Liberals, moderates and a lot of others fought an died too. They fought to defend the rights, not define correct behavior, whether on the right or left. "That would be CHARITY by the church, where it belongs" Christ said charity is the responsibility of the individual and family, not the Church. And I seem to remember that "charity" in the original, implies a lot more than material help.

In replying to kimmers, you said. "It would be if you are an anti-christian bigot" As I'm not anti-Christian and work like hell not to be a bigot, let me offer this. I finally got into the site kimmers recommended. From the descriptions it would appear that the same poor scholarship (from whatever motivation) that I've found in some public school texts exists here in spades. Whether the motive is to promote a particular flavor of Christianity, liberal political correctness or some other agenda, lousy scholarship is criminal. At least with the public school system I have an opportunity to at least put in my two cents worth. When ideology is a more important consideration than scholarship, I have real problems. As a member of society, I'll have to deal with the graduates of such a system who elevate political/religious/conservative/liberal "correctness" over mere facts. I object. I should not have to subsidize that kind of sloppy education. The goal of education should be on how to think, not what to think.

The RWE have a very bad habit of believing in the golden rule as long as the people they are doing unto believe the way they do. LWE have a similar problem with their political correctness agenda. Fortunately, the majority seem to be more moderate, tolerant and rational.

The danger in all the labeling is that we forget that the real "enemy" can be found staring back from the mirror every morning.

Regards John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:49 AM

After my success with the blue clicky thing, I'm trying to italicize. HTML is just like the old Xerox meta-code or mainframe based printing.. Tedious.

Chicago John, Beg pardon, but socialism is much more the politics of selfishness then any other political party. Socialism says- "What is yours is also mine" If that isn't selfish, I dunno what is

I believe that the"what's yours..." is communism, not socialism.

After the investigation of Florida by Democrats, they found 1 (ONE) person who had said that they had been denied the right to vote. That is not depriving blacks the right to vote. Assuming that the 1 (ONE) person was telling the truth, it does not form a pattern of discimination

The investigation is on-going (and the claims of voting irregularities predates the presidential election by a couple of years). Miami-Dade went over the voting rolls and found that there were a number of people who were listed as felons and not allowed to vote. Similarity, people who weren't citizens were allowed to vote They found over 100 problems as I recall. This from the corrected voter rolls supplied by Tallahassee. My county started verifying the list and finally tossed it as hopelessly inaccurate. People were denied the right to vote, of all ethnic backgrounds. How many before its wrong? Yeah? As in the VERY unselfish "Can I have $650,000 a year for an apartment?" Clinton? Clinton blew it. Is that worse than having a sports stadium built by the taxpayers for your team? Clinton being wrong doesn't make the other side right.

The Constitution is very specific on what government shouldn't do. But you can't seriously argue that the founding fathers would be *for* giving away air-conditioners. If they knew that we would be considering such things, they certainly would have stopped it from happening

As the founding fathers have been dead these many years, I don't really care. I strongly suspect I wouldn't have liked a lot fo the founding fathers. Especially those who had to be pressured into the Bill of Rights. They created a living document. It wasn't divinely inspired or written on stone tablets and brought down from the mountain. How it's used is for us to decided, through our elected representatives.(Which works better on paper than in reality?).

I have a bunch of problems with the above statement. The most successful "kids" today are from the internet era. They work longer then 40 hours a week of their own accord. They do so because they are smart, and make good money. The people in this world who make the most money do NOT stick to a 40-hour week

Define "successful. Their families, doctors and therapist might disagree,. The 40-hour work week came about because people weren't being compensated. Industry self-regulation didn't work.

Looking at the failure rate of dot.com, e-commerce and internet related industries, including the massive losses reported each quarter even from the successful ones, "smart' may be pushing it. An analysis of Silicon Valley successes indicated that general knowledge of business and marketing principals and high levels of social skills were what succeeded, not technical expertise.

With Ashcroft in, can developing a program to locate politically non-conservative ideas on the internet and deal harshly with the malefactors be far behind Are you kidding me???

Obviously. Well, obviously it wasn't, but yes.

Why do you think it's stupid to stop felons from voting? I think that once someone has served whatever sentence is imposed, they've "paid their debt to society". No problem with them not being able to vote while they're serving out their sentence. In theory, we have the belief that our goal is to rehabilitate (stressing the "in theory"). This runs counter to that. It also further marginalizes and stigmatizes people and would seem (at least intuitively) to be more part of the problem than the solution

On the contrary, most corporations pay their most valued people very well. I have a friend who works on firewalls. He gets paid very, very, well

And should. I said "valued" not "well paid". The University of Michigan Graduate School of Management does a lot of training, collects a lot of information. When you ask the general employee population why they work for the company, pay is anywhere from 4th to 6th on the list. Ask the senior managers and pay is #1.

It's nice if you have both. When it's all about money, productivity suffers, in the long run. People who are treated like cogs in the machine, no matter how well paid, tend to start acting like one.

Sorcha,

Both of the Clintons lost a lot of my respect over the Senate/Real Estate deal and the Pelitier Pardon. Not to mention the WhiteWater thing. At the time, I did not put a lot of stock in that, but now???????? Ditto IMO, Clinton being a scum has little to do with whether his political agenda has merit. Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:20 PM

Greg,

MPD. An unfamiliar abbreviation but one I ought to know. Please illuminate.

Another take: As the demands on an non-complex belief system grow, internal contradictions appear and expand. It has to either fragment or retreat into pure dogma.

Either outcome is acceptable.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,sunshine 444
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:26 PM

MAV, tell them to put their money where their mouth is.

Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,Sunshine 444
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:40 PM

Hang in there MAV, be back to you shortly. I see Chicago John is here as well. As Arnold said "I'll be back".

Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:41 PM

Sunshine44,

But wanting me to put my money where your mouth is is fine? QED.

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 05:37 PM

You may have something there, John. Or perhaps its just hyenas & other scavengers gathering.

MPD=Multiple Personality Disorder.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 05:59 PM

Greg,

Thanks. I found three references to MPD in my quest. One was a cancer, one had something to do with some sort of parasitic infestation and one was the one you cite. Just one of lifes little coincidences? :-)

And don't discount another (and less tounge in check) explaination. Mav and company, as well as those at the other end of the spectrum, may be 'true believers'. (Which has nothing to do with whether what they believe is true). If you haven't read Eric Hoffer's book of the same name, I recommend it highly.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 07:54 PM

Un-tongue in cheek, they may indeed be Hoffernian 'true believers' - if they're not simply #$$@*&!!s having their idea of 'fun'.

While that may explain (to a degree)it doesn't excuse or condone. Most of history's atrocities were (and still are) committed by "true believers" of whatever political/religious/social/etc. dogma you wish, from Pope Innocent thru Stalin to Timothy McVeigh.

Not a comforting thought.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 08:37 PM

"mav seems to be undergoing a form of mitotic division.......or perhaps its budding? Possibly MPD"

No, I knew you guys missed me when I was unable to post, so I told some cohorts about the LSCs in here and boom, they showed up.

algor has MPD, I believe that's why he flunked out of divinity school, demonic possession.

har, har, har

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 08:48 PM

Skeptic,

""American free enterprise is the entity born of economic freedom and is a natural phenomenon of human nature" Huh?. I understand the sentiment, just not the logic. "Natural phenomenon? " How so"

One dirt farmer grows hogs, one grows corn, a woman in town weaves fabric, someone makes pottery....they trade goods. One person sells products on consignment for a commission while the producer is doing what he does best.

It's been going on for centuries.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Troll
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 08:52 PM

It is unfortunate, but it would seem that the people who, for good or ill,get things done and make changes that affect the world, are people of passion- true believers if you will.
Moderates don't change much of anything. When you can see all sdies, how do you choose.
"True Belivers" lie at BOTH ends of the spectrum.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 09:42 PM

mav,

Centuries does not make it a natural phenomena, just an historical one. People have to eat, want shelter and enjoy "luxuries" (things beyond the necessary). To achieve that, some form of an economy has to exist. What you described is a basic barter economy. Works fairly well at the village level as long as there are social or formal controls to regulate trade and production. In a village, the necessary feedback mechanisms are close: socially, economically and temporally. The larger and more complex the society and culture, the less reliable and timely the built in controls. Ultimately, it appears that the natural feedback loops that regulate such a system start interfere with one another. The result is usually pretty chaotic.

What you haven't demonstrated is that the system you describe is natural or part of human nature. I could describe the socialistic economy of a 12th century Abby, or the communal economy of various tribal communities all over the world. That proves it happens.

You claimed it was human nature. I asked the question seriously. I repeat it. Describing one type of economic system begs the question. Why is free enterprise (not economic activity in general) a natural phenomena and part of human nature?

Please understand, I have nothing against a free enterprise system per se. I'll be happy to argue (as my opinion) that in a large, complex, geographically diverse society, its pretty utopian, makes assumptions about human nature that are not supported by historical evidence and seems to have logical consequences I don't like. Later.

I'd like to explore the natural phenomena/human nature contention first.

troll,

Yes, people of passion can make changes (usually dramatic). Moderates just pick up the pieces and put the world back together again.

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:23 PM

Skeptic,

"I think that citizens should vote. It is their right, not their duty. Do you think there should be penalties if people don't vote?

No, the "dumb" vote is useless, only the unscrupulous would exploit it.

"It's the parent's responsibility to educate their children" Does society have a responsibility to ask for a certain quality of that education?

Maybe, depends on what state you live in.

"It's a woman's responsibility not to risk getting pregnant until she's capable of being "responsible" (married) " And the man has no responsibility?

Real men don't get pregnant, I think I commented on that. "I'm sure others will have lots to say on that. The implication of your statement, however, shows a profound disrespect for both men and women"

Men and women should respect their children first and worry about their own "delicate sensibilities" later or do the right thing and get fixed.

"It's a man's responsibility to provide for any children he's sired."

"Ah, having bourne the child, the women's job is done?"

No, it was by no means a full description of "responsibilities"

"By "provide", do you mean provide materially only?"

No.

"And does the community have any responsibilities here"

No, what if there is no "community". At one point they would band together to form a common defense. See faith/community based organizations below.

"Forget the government. Does the Church? Boy/Girl Scouts. Little League?"

They have a function, but it's not really a responsibility, except for the child's safety.

"What if the woman works and the man stays home?"

Then they reverse roles, not a bad thing.

"What if all the man does is provide materially?"

Better than nothing, better than welfare but not as good as a real father.

"It's a citizen's responsibility to be properly trained in the safe operation and ownership of their firearms. Damn. We agree on something."

"It's the parent's responsibility to raise respectful, thoughtful and obedient children so they may become the good citizens and leaders of tomorrow."

"Respect is earned"

Respect your elders, unless they are have totally wasted their life, they have more experience than we do. "Politeness is owed. (IMO)."

OK

"Thoughtful is nice"

Thoughtful is thinking.

"Obedient? To what or to whom?"

The cops is a good start, teachers, people in authority (the judge)

"Obedient to the internal set of values, ethics, morals and beliefs I've helped my son develop? Sure. Willing to accept the consequences of those beliefs, that to. Blind obedience, even to positive and good things, is very dangerous. Solutions and consequences, again. They go hand in hand"

Well, common sense has to be factored in.

"There are some extra-responsibilities too, like community or faith based organizations which can take care of and place unwanted children in loving homes, instead of just killing them"

This addresses your above question.

The criteria imposed for adoption in this country have little to do with the loving nature of the home.

That is not my doing. The LSCs traditionally occupy the social services.

"Uh....many of those "right wing extremists" fought for and many died on behalf of your freedom. They take an oath to DEFEND the Constitution." Freedom is won, or lost, by the day to day actions of its citizens. The sacrifice of those who fought an died must never be forgotten. Liberals, moderates and a lot of others fought an died too. They fought to defend the rights, not define correct behavior, whether on the right or left.

You will find constructionists on the right, anti-Constitutionalists on the left. Many or even most politicians violate their oath to defend and protect the Constitution, either side.

The Constitution is NOT a "living, breathing document", that's just a feeble excuse for violating it, unless of course, you go to the trouble of AMENDING it.

"That would be CHARITY by the church, where it belongs" Christ said charity is the responsibility of the individual and family, not the Church. And I seem to remember that "charity" in the original, implies a lot more than material help.

Faith based criminal "correction" IS a lot more than material help.

"As a member of society, I'll have to deal with the graduates of such a system who elevate political/religious/conservative/liberal "correctness" over mere facts. I object. I should not have to subsidize that kind of sloppy education. The goal of education should be on how to think, not what to think."

Absorbing facts and theories is good.

"The RWE have a very bad habit of believing in the golden rule as long as the people they are doing unto believe the way they do"

Well, if they encounter enemies both foreign and domestic...

"LWE have a similar problem with their political correctness agenda. Fortunately, the majority seem to be more moderate, tolerant and rational"

Well they currently have control over both the education and information systems in the world. Just like it says in the Manifesto.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:36 PM

Skeptic,

"Why is free enterprise (not economic activity in general) a natural phenomena and part of human nature"

Because in an unrestricted condition, a person will find something in which they can excel, specialize and enjoy, and perform that specialty with a passion, especially if they own the property/equipment and can reap benefits in direct proportion to their effort.

The success is its own reward.

Communal living promotes mediocrity.

Why should you work hard on the government farm if you get paid the same (very little) whether you break your back or not? (unless of course they are holding a gun on you)

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:42 PM

"I believe that the"what's yours..." is communism, not socialism."

Okay then. Please give me your definition of socialism, and how it is applied in your ideal government.

"The investigation is on-going (and the claims of voting irregularities predates the presidential election by a couple of years)."

There are claims of voting irregularities in every election, in every state. Become a judge of election, and you'll find out how often they occur. Here in Chicago, we had States' Attorney's Office looking over our shoulders all of the time.

"Miami-Dade went over the voting rolls and found that there were a number of people who were listed as felons and not allowed to vote."

Yeah, I read that story. Again, there was no real claim that African Americans were targeted.

"Similarity, people who weren't citizens were allowed to vote They found over 100 problems as I recall. This from the corrected voter rolls supplied by Tallahassee. My county started verifying the list and finally tossed it as hopelessly inaccurate. People were denied the right to vote, of all ethnic backgrounds."

Which is the key. Of all ethnic backgrounds.

"Clinton blew it. Is that worse than having a sports stadium built by the taxpayers for your team?"

Since when did you see me argue for a sports stadium??? Your analogy doesn't even hold on a parallel. One could argue that a sports stadium benifits the many. You can't argue that for Clinton.

"Clinton being wrong doesn't make the other side right."

And I have argued against sports stadiums being publicly funded also.

"As the founding fathers have been dead these many years, I don't really care."

Do you agree with the Constitution as a document?

"I strongly suspect I wouldn't have liked a lot fo the founding fathers."

Given that, I have a strong suspicion that I wouldn't like you.

"Especially those who had to be pressured into the Bill of Rights. They created a living document."

Arrrgh. The *Living Document* people. Q: Did you ever read up on our Constitution just for the heck of it?

"It wasn't divinely inspired or written on stone tablets and brought down from the mountain. How it's used is for us to decided, through our elected representatives."

You could not be more wrong. The Constitution is ONLY supposed to be interpretted by the Supreme Court. Why do you think the legislature has to AMEND the constitution whenever we come up with a way that we want to add to it?

(Which works better on paper than in reality?).

"Define "successful."

Eating well. Vacationing well. Having a nice house, and smiling because they don't complain about money.

"Their families, doctors and therapist might disagree,"

I've been poor and working less then 40 hours. I've made a good living working more then 40 hours/week. I prefer the latter.

"Looking at the failure rate of dot.com, e-commerce and internet related industries, including the massive losses reported each quarter even from the successful ones, "smart' may be pushing it."

Smart people often take chances. Just because they fail the first time out, it doesn't mean that they are stupid. On the contrary, if they are making 6 figures while failing, that's not a bad way to fail.

"I think that once someone has served whatever sentence is imposed, they've "paid their debt to society"."

Just to be clear, then you are FOR former felons voting?

"It also further marginalizes and stigmatizes people and would seem (at least intuitively) to be more part of the problem than the solution"

I have no problem with putting a stigma on being a felon.

"When you ask the general employee population why they work for the company, pay is anywhere from 4th to 6th on the list. Ask the senior managers and pay is #1."

Your argument is backwards. You are telling me what the EMPLOYEE believes, not what the EMPLOYER believes. If management is only after salary, then that's what they get more of. If general employees list salary as 4th or 6th on their list, is it that surprising that they aren't getting paid more?

"When it's all about money, productivity suffers, in the long run."

Based on what style of management?

"Both of the Clintons lost a lot of my respect over the Senate/Real Estate deal and the Pelitier Pardon. Not to mention the WhiteWater thing. At the time, I did not put a lot of stock in that, but now????????"

What took you so long to get on board?????

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,http://www.delphi.com/FOXsWolves
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:57 AM

http://www.delphi.com/FOXsWolves

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,Ghostsniper
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 06:28 AM

Hey, Mav;

Hola, amigo. I hear you are in some need of fire support.

Strangely, I seem to recall that the title of this area had to do with music; yet all I seem to be seeing is a bunch of twisting-in-the-wind leftists seeing red that their boy, AlGore, didn't get elected and cause another shooting war in this country.

That at least one person in here, an admitted "proud" socialist (isn't that an oxymoron?) is a teacher in a pub- lic school pretty much explains why the system has failed so miserably over the past couple of decades. I've seen schools in Third World countries that had a better stan- dard of education than a lot of the public schools here.

Some of these people are also, obviously, products of that system and the outcome-based bull utilised therein.

The Sniper is ranging...

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,Teacher
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 07:04 AM

Time to get off the computer, sonny, you'll miss the school bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:33 PM

mav, and others I'm responding to the issues I"d like to have some clarified. As you said earlier, we have areas of agreement. And disagreement. And I'm using html tags again, with(I hope) better results.

Maybe, depends on what state you live in

Why would it depend on the State. The question is independent of any political implications. My question (restated): Beyond the obligation of the family (nuclear? Extended?) Does the community have obligations toward education?

Real men don't get pregnant, I think I commented on that

Baring cloning, Men are a necessary part of the pregnancy. I'm in favor of staying involved.

Men and women should respect their children first and worry about their own "delicate sensibilities" later or do the right thing and get fixed.

Without self respect, how to you respect others? A number of studies indicate that low-self esteem correlates with child abuse. I will agree that having children is something that should require a lot of thought. And if by "sensibilities" you mean not making a child and integral part of the parents life on a day to day basis, yes.

No, it was by no means a full description of "responsibilities

It would be interesting to know what the responsibilities are, and whether the responsibilities are the families to work out, or some are the man's some the woman's some both.

No, what if there is no "community". At one point they would band together to form a common defense. See faith/community based organizations below

Begs the question. Does the group (beyond the family) have obligations? If so, what are they?

Forget the government. Does the Church? Boy/Girl Scouts. Little League? and you replied, They have a function, but it's not really a responsibility, except for the child's safety.

The implication is for physical safety only. What are the "functions". Are they necessary or only nice?

You said The cops is a good start, teachers, people in authority (the judge) and I said Obedient to the internal set of values, ethics, morals and beliefs I've helped my son develop? Sure. Willing to accept the consequences of those beliefs, that to. Blind obedience, even to positive and good things, is very dangerous. Solutions and consequences, again. They go hand in hand and you added Well, common sense has to be factored in

On the cops and authority issue, I could argue that under that theory the American Revolution was wrong as the King was exercising his legitimate authority. Our rebellion was rooted in a profound disrespect for that authority. Common sense is a cathc-all for sloppy reasoning.

There are some extra-responsibilities too, like community or faith based organizations which can take care of and place unwanted children in loving homes, instead of just killing them" This addresses your above question.

What other rolls do you view as legitimate?

My comment was The criteria imposed for adoption in this country have little to do with the loving nature of the home and you replied That is not my doing. The LSCs traditionally occupy the social services

On what evidence to you base this contention?. Who "occupies" the social service agencies isn't the issue. Who makes the laws, rules and regulations is. As to whose doing it is, it's all of our doing, by commission or omissions, by tacit or willing compliance.

The Constitution is NOT a "living, breathing document", that's just a feeble excuse for violating it, unless of course, you go to the trouble of AMENDING it.

The founding fathers stated purpose was to create a government of law, not men. Claiming that the constitution is a living, breathing document is more a testimony to their effort than anything. In what ways does that concept relate to violating the Constitution?

Faith based criminal "correction" IS a lot more than material help

It just hasn't proven to be effective in practice. Nor have a lot of other, non-faith based programs, come to that, as both types propose simplistic, cookie cutter solutions. Faith based also comes with a lot of baggage that I prefer not to have to pay for.

Absorbing facts and theories is good

And this means what? If all I want is to learn facts, theories, dates and such, I have a computer and a search engine. Learning facts and theories is the bare bones beginning. Learning how to think is vital.

Well, if they encounter enemies both foreign and domestic...

And not sarcastically, if the enemy isn't there, they are perfectly willing to create one. As the definition of enemy is anyone who doesn't agree with them, they have many candidates.

Well they currently have control over both the education and information systems in the world. Just like it says in the Manifesto

In control? I suppose it helps if you know the answer before you ask the questions and then picking and choosing onlt the facts that support that answer. Leaving out the facts that don't support your position, or claiming they don't count, ends up in decisions that ignore real consequences and tend to foster the idea of conspiracy. Your (or my) slopping thinking doesn't mean that a plot exists. The Manifesto? As in Communist Manifesto? Can the Gnomes of Zurich or the Illuminatus be far behind? The claim of a conspiracy is an extraordinary claim. It requires extraordinary proof. Anecdotes aren't proof, just good stories. Coincidences aren't either. Retreating into "they make sure there is no proof" begs the question. Because in an unrestricted condition, a person will find something in which they can excel, specialize and enjoy, and perform that specialty with a passion, especially if they own the property/equipment and can reap benefits in direct proportion to their effort

A fascinating theory. You imply this is some innate trait of man. It might be a nice theory but reality keeps rearing its ugly head.

Unrestricted or otherwise, humans first seek shelter, safety, food, companionship and to reproduce. Beyond that it gets very fuzzy. What evidence supports this theory? I'd say that successful mediocrity wins out over excellence every time. Excellence takes a lot of time and work.

Finding The Answer before you ask any question is dangerous at any point on the political spectrum.

The success is its own reward

An ego boost, certainly but otherwise a non-statement. Neither success nor reward is a specific measurable, both are highly subjective.

Communal living promotes mediocrity

Maybe. It can also promote excellence as it allows the individual the physical and mental security to concentrate on whatever they want to concentrate on. In certain environments and social situations it may be a necessity.

Why should you work hard on the government farm if you get paid the same (very little) whether you break your back or not? (unless of course they are holding a gun on you)

You shouldn't.

And another Guest wrote

Okay then. Please give me your definition of socialism, and how it is applied in your ideal government

Difficult as I'm not a big fan of pure socialism. The classic defintion is: "a system of social organization in which private property and the distribution of income are subject to social control, rather than to determination by individuals pursuing their own interests or by the market forces of capitalism." (From the on-line Britannica)

I don't do "ideal governments" as such seems and oxymoron. I prefer to look at what my values and goals are(which I've stated fairly clearly on this and other threads)., and how to best accomplish them practically. (Based on how people do act, not how I want them to act). If capitalism or socialism have elements that work, then incorporate them. All the "isms" "ists" and "ocracies" need to fit people. Trying to stuff people in boxes because someone has decided that this theory or the other is "true" has never worked, except maybe in the short run.

I am interested in values. Personal values. Build on that and look at the lesson's of history. Of science, of experience. Is it practical. What are the consequences?. If I have a basic value that says it is wrong for people to be hungry, I need to figure out ways to make that happen. (Not "a way"). Do I just feed the hungry no matter what? Probably not, as that isn't practical and would go against other values. Do I let them starve because "all they have to do is try and if they won't help themselves why should I?". No, because that says my value against letting people starve when I can help is just lip services.

It starts with individual values, not with some external dogma. Finding an answer an then forcing facts to fit and demanding that only one way works is wrong from whatever point it comes.

What are your values? Not what principals do you like. Capitalism isn't a value, neither is socialism. Family, integrity, charity, respect are values, the individuallity is a value. If I understand my values, then whatever system I propose has to be consistent (if I value integrity). Again, it starts with the individual and builds up. The thrust of what you propose is to build from some assumed-to-be-right theoretical structure down, rejecting any fact that doesn't fit and belittling anyone who doesn't agree. Labeling people as this or that (until they've proven other wise, is intellectual dishonesty.

There are claims of voting irregularities in every election, in every state. Become a judge of election, and you'll find out how often they occur. Here in Chicago, we had States' Attorney's Office looking over our shoulders all of the time.

Yes, there are. Our Canvassing Board deals with it regularly, too. As Florida has a strong Government in the Sunshine law, observing is very easy. Claims of fraud have to be addressed, not ignored.

Yeah, I read that story. Again, there was no real claim that African Americans were targeted

Who cares who was targeted? Claiming that the exclusions were deliberately based on race isn't here nor there. If people were excluded we need to find out why.

Carelessness may work, except that after the fiasco in Miami-Dade a couple of years ago, where there was fraud, the fact that they didn't clean it up demands more of an explanation than "oops".

Which is the key. Of all ethnic backgrounds

That's why I said it.

Since when did you see me argue for a sports stadium??? Your analogy doesn't even hold on a parallel. One could argue that a sports stadium benifits the many. You can't argue that for Clinton.

I didn't see you argue for a stadium and you see that don't like it. Just as you didn't see me argue for socialism. I brought it up as an example of using tax-payers money and political influence for personal gain (which is related to Clinton) and in answer to early posts. And studies done of the impact and benefit of stadiums (the ones not done by the club owners) show that the economic benefit is either much overstated or non-existent.

Do you agree with the Constitution as a document?

Yes

I said "I strongly suspect I wouldn't have liked a lot of the founding fathers." You replied Given that, I have a strong suspicion that I wouldn't like you

I'm devastated. And the statement may be too general as I've only read biographies of 6 or 7 of them. I don't disparage what was finally produced, just that looking at their lives, they don't deserve to be canonized. Arrrgh. The *Living Document* people. Q: Did you ever read up on our Constitution just for the heck of it?

Yes. Did you every study it? Have you read "The Federalist's Papers". Hamilton's Essay's? Any of Jefferson's commentaries?. Read any of the minutes of the Constitutional Conventions? Any collections of editorials from the various colonial newspapers of the time? If so, then we have interpreted things differently and I'd be interested in discussing your views off-forum. If not, your opinions are based on hearsay, the opinion/analysis of others who support your preconceived opinions, and urban legend.

You could not be more wrong. The Constitution is ONLY supposed to be interpretted by the Supreme Court. Why do you think the legislature has to AMEND the constitution whenever we come up with a way that we want to add to it?

I was getting at the Constitution as a framework and set of rules under which the legislature passes laws to accomplish its purposes. They interpret how far they are allowed to go. If they're wrong (by accident or for purposeful political reasons), the Supreme Court ends up involved.

"Eating well. Vacationing well. Having a nice house, and smiling because they don't complain about money".

All nice but I hope you have more of a personal value system than that. I think you may find that all those things (which we all want), are merely satisfying. And fairly superficial.

I've been poor and working less then 40 hours. I've made a good living working more then 40 hours/week. I prefer the latter.

Have you been poor working 40 (or more) hours a week? Or know people who are?

Smart people often take chances. Just because they fail the first time out, it doesn't mean that they are stupid. On the contrary, if they are making 6 figures while failing, that's not a bad way to fail

No it isn't. Of course, it's a matter of intent. Are they interested in actually producing something or just making the six figures? And, yes, I think it matters.

Just to be clear, then you are FOR former felons voting?

Yes.

I have no problem with putting a stigma on being a felon

I do as its one element in a high recidivism rate.

Your argument is backwards. You are telling me what the EMPLOYEE believes, not what the EMPLOYER believes. If management is only after salary, then that's what they get more of. If general employees list salary as 4th or 6th on their list, is it that surprising that they aren't getting paid more?

Since the employee is the one doing the work, yes I am. And if salary is what its all about, its not surprising that companies have major productivity, turnover and customer service issues.

I said When it's all about money, productivity suffers, in the long run. and you replied Based on what style of management?

On almost any type of management that views money as the primary motivator.

And Guest Teacher wrote

Time to get off the computer, sonny, you'll miss the school bus.

What more can be said?

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:54 PM

Ghostsniper brayed:

Hey, Mav;

Hola, amigo. I hear you are in some need of fire support.

Actually MAV is capable of providing plenty of fire. Just very little in the way of light. I see you're from the same school.

Strangely, I seem to recall that the title of this area had to do with music; yet all I seem to be seeing is a bunch of twisting-in-the-wind leftists seeing red that their boy, AlGore, didn't get elected and cause another shooting war in this country.

Golly, I haven't seen anyone mention Al Gore in .... I think you're the first, come to think of it. Which makes me think you really haven't read the thread before commenting on it, which makes me think you're an idiot.

That at least one person in here, an admitted "proud" socialist (isn't that an oxymoron?) is a teacher in a pub- lic school pretty much explains why the system has failed so miserably over the past couple of decades. I've seen schools in Third World countries that had a better stan- dard of education than a lot of the public schools here.

Not used to word-wrap, are you? Ah, so you're saying the system has "failed so miserably" (does that mean it succeeded?) because of the existence of one socialist teacher? We aren't arguing that there are problems with the public schools. We all agree on that. If you had read the thread, you would have noticed that. Your "third world" comment is therefore just so much ignorant flaming. The question is on how to fix them. MAV thinks the best way to make the public schools better is to take money away from them. We disagree.

Some of these people are also, obviously, products of that system and the outcome-based bull utilised therein.

Ah. More insults, but still nothing of any substance. No wonder you choose "Ghostsniper" as your nickname.

Far be it from me to tell you what to do, but I'd humbly ask that you either contribute to the conversation, or go away.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:06 PM

Mousethief said. Far be it from me to tell you what to do, but I'd humbly ask that you either contribute to the conversation, or go away

I'm not holding my breath. Mav may be interested in a conversation. I'm reserving opinion on the rest.

They act like brothers in spirit to both Amr Ibn el-As and Theophilus of Alexandria (the stories about these two may be urban legends but they're useful urban legends.)

Regards,

JOhn

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,TheRaven
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 08:05 PM

"If I had a kid, I would choose carefully, and look for a good ratio of kids to adults and a stimulating and safe environment."

How about choosing to raise the kid yourself instead of palming it off to somebody else?

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,TheRaven
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 08:09 PM

"Sen McCarthy was the Godfather of Bobby Kennedy's oldest child."

And Bobby Kennedy was probably the biological father of Sen. McCarthy's oldest child. Well, maybe Jack got in there first. Who knows? Maybe Teddy drove it off a bridge and drowned it? Who cares.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 08:12 PM

"Knowing how to reach the child is part of the art of teaching. I had a few duds but many of my teachers were artists of the first order."

Teaching is the art of varied repetition. ~ TheRaven

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 09:17 PM

How about choosing to raise the kid yourself instead of palming it off to somebody else?

Which might have some truth in it if thats what had been said. A little effort toward or even the pretense, of intellectual honesty would be nice.

And Bobby Kennedy was probably the biological father of Sen. McCarthy's oldest child. Well, maybe Jack got in there first. Who knows? Maybe Teddy drove it off a bridge and drowned it? Who cares.

Another pearl of wisdom from the historically challanged. Explained by this:

Teaching is the art of varied repetition

That is called instruction. A very different thing, in intent, method and outcome. If you're going to try to show off, please do it with a little style, and make some attempt to think first.

Most of us have a fairly high tolerance for contrary opinins. A lot less for the manifestly and repeatably foolish.

If you want to participate, then please offer something besides meaningless sound bites.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 09:36 PM

Continued on Bushwacked FIVE

Click here Maybe for the new thread.