BS: Alternative to Science??

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 07:43 PM

Oh, gosh, there's tons of both evidence, discussion of evidence, speculation and discussion of speculation about this rag. What's great is that science has so assiduously applied itself dutifully to what is almost certainly a hoax (and I'm not saying that the thing itself was intended to be a hoax, rather that those Christians of the generations down the line from medieval times who like to deal in the scarily-mystic love to use it as a hoax). People like Guffissimo cling valiantly on to the exceptionally remote possibility that they actually have something here, but, in order to adopt that line, they have to not only suspend disbelief but suspend the whole of their faith in science itself. Still, it's intriguing stuff, and whoever produced the bloody thing was fairly clever, it must be admitted. But, at the end of the day (to quote the Kinks, in whom I have great faith), do you, Gustacious One, believe that the Turin shroud bears the image of the actual body of dead Jesus?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 07:48 PM

I find myself very curious as to whether or not intact DNA could be recovered just to see what it might match up to. And not becasue I think a "virgin birth" would mean we would find XX chromosomes or some other nonsense. Just to get a sense of what ancestry that poor guy had.

As I understand it, whatever DNA traces remain on the shroud from the alleged human imprint are so badly knackered as to be useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 08:12 PM

Oral? Jesus? Yes, I remember someone shouting that out, Bobert...

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 08:17 PM

What, you are not familiar with Oral Robert's dream, Steve???

I don't make this stuff up...

Oral told his followers that a "600 foot tall Jesus" appeared in Oral's dream and told Oral that if he didn't raise $____ by such and such a date that Jesus was going to come and take him home, i. e. dead...

Reminds me of Soupy Sails who told his kiddie audience to steal money from their parents and send it to him...

I don't make this shit up... I mean, you can't really make this shit up...

Fact is stranger than fiction...

B:~)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 08:19 PM

My bad... It was a 900 foot Jesus...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 08:23 PM

My bad, Part 2... It's Soupy Sales...

Google 'um up, Steve, for some laughs...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 08:33 PM

Let's try this again, for all those who are a little 'slow'....

..Jeez, I thought even you would have known that...!!..At least any lesser dummy would have known that BEFORE engaging in a moronic discussion against FACTS!

Now, if the shroud was of the 13th century, how do you explain the image, being as it was tested, and was found NOT to have been painted, only 2 microns deep, (no absorption, less than any paint or medium that was used back then), no materials found used in paint AND was concluded that the image was the result of radiation, (either heat or light, or both)...pretty far out technology being as the camera was not invented till several centuries later.....and as long as we are on cameras, how in the world did they in the 13th century, be able to photograph or paint a holographic image....the only known picture ever found with these properties?
I'm sure you have a simple answer for these.
....and while you're at it, explain the pollen that was found in the fibers that come from a plant that only grows within 50 miles of Jerusalem.
When you get done 'explaining all that away' there's more!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 09:01 PM

We are not a little slow, Guffy One. We happen to know that your issues have already been addressed ad nauseam, that's all. Have a quick w... a quick w... have a w... (shit...) have a quick WIKI! You do have this thing, don't you, whereby anyone who doesn't listen to your every erudite word or watch every minute of your tedious 37-hour frickin' videos is a bit of a twot. Well what can we do, save remind you that if you have a point to make (doubtful, but we do like to indulge...), then do us the honour of saving us from a mountain of mental processing. Just state your point. One point you could usefully state right now is to tell us all whether you think that the Turin shroud bears the actual, real, no-bullshit imprint of the true body of Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 10:25 PM

Steve: "We happen to know that your issues have already been addressed ad nauseam...blah blah blah.....

...then address them..and stop trying to prove a negative....oh scientific one!
Problem is..you can't prove your position...very scientific!
So after we've come this far in this thread 'Alternative to Science??'
it's you???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:11 AM

You demonstrate a lamentable lack of understanding of science every time you indulge in the word "prove". Not in my lexicon, I'm afraid, when my brain's in science mode. You also have an endearing habit of chucking out half-formed or muddled ideas and then asking us to do all the hard work of sorting them out for you, including watching hours of tedious, tendentious videos or looking for confirmation that your ideas are usually daft (which we know already). Googling Turin shroud will give you all the debunking of "alternative theories" about the shroud you could wish for. Once you've done that, it might just help you to answer the big question, namely, do you believe that the Turin shroud bears the actual contact image of the dead body of Christ?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:21 AM

""The Catholic Protestant Churches have done MUCH to pollute and corrupt everything about Jesus, and what he was about!""

If you bothered to do any real research instead of reading biased dissertations from dodgy scientists, you would be aware of some pertinent historical facts.

1. The protestant church was the Catholic church until a king decided that he wished to ditch a wife for a newer model and was refused an annulment by the Pope.

Henry VIII declred himself Defender of the Faith to satisfy his adulterous nature.

2. The Catholic church, which you claim has ""done MUCH to pollute and corrupt everything about Jesus, and what he was about!"", is the author of that book which Creationists believe to be the "Inerrant Word of God". It adopted the "Old Testament" of the Hebrews and went on to create the "New Testament" of Catholicism, merging the pair into one "Catholic Bible", upon which the foundation of Creationism rests.

You really can't have it both ways.

I happen to believe that it is men within and without the church, with personal agendas, who have as you say polluted the whole thing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 07:16 AM

Or maybe the whole thing is just one big piece of pollution anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 07:27 AM

"You also have an endearing habit of chucking out half-formed or muddled ideas and then asking us to do all the hard work of sorting them out for you ..."

Yep, GfS, we're back to taking responsibilty here. If you really want us to derive something meaningful from el-tedio video, you would:

1. Summarise all 3000 plonky, jerky hours of it (I nearly died about a quarter of an hour through it - and flipping woke up in a shroud!).

2. Tell us what you think it means.

3. Tell us how you think it relates to 'real' science (or whatever travesty of the truth you think of as real science).

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 07:33 AM

If you bothered to do any real research instead of reading biased dissertations from dodgy scientists, you would be aware of some pertinent historical facts.

1. The protestant church was the Catholic church until a king decided that he wished to ditch a wife for a newer model and was refused an annulment by the Pope.

Henry VIII declred himself Defender of the Faith to satisfy his adulterous nature.'

'

Before riding the high horse of historical research it is probably wise to realise that what you state there is true for the Anglican protestants. Not at all at all valid for many other protestant denominations as they came into being on the (European) continent.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: sciencegeek
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:04 AM

the first protestors were actually assorted sects that lost their internal, political battles within the larger organization and were then labeled heretics by the winning side. If the schism was large enough, it became a separate religious organization. The Roman Catholic Church in the west. The Coptic Church, the Eastern Orthodox - which then under went its own schisms based to the eastern remnant of the Roman Empire. this is very general, of course.

Within the western church, abuses of power got pretty flagrant & Martin Luther headed the first successful protest. And the Protestants have been squabbling and splintering ever since.

I would recommend reading Eric Flint's alternate reality series - Ring of Fire - if that kind of thing appeals to you.

For my part, the details about the religious aspects of the 30 years war was a flashback to what bored & pissed me in religion class.

My response to the Jesus freaks of the '60's & '70's and the born again Christians running today remains - Get a Life!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 03:07 PM

Oh man....The protestant and Catholic 'religions' based in Europe, as either the co-adaptation of the Roman Empire, or as the revolt from it (Protestant Movement), is the model for what we in the Western 'Civilized' world as a 'religion'.....this carries with it a tremendous amount of how we view reality, how we modeled (or rebelled), our governments, political systems, points of view(of right or wrong), and pretty much all of how we see reality..religious or political, and even physical matter and properties. It has affected our science as well. This is all true.
The study of the shroud, and their findings, DO NOT endorse ANY religion, sect, or political system..other than, if the findings are indeed true, could (would) alter our perception of 'reality'. Being as the study opened up a new field of science, that which is consistent with quantum physics, 'string theory', 'membrane theory' and how they work...and guess what?..they use MUSIC (and harmonics)to describe how it all works and to describe our relationship to the dimensions...and there are MORE than the ONE we see!..FACT!!
When Beethoven spoke about this, he used these words: "The vibrations on the air are the breath of God speaking to man's soul. Music is the language of God. We musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear his voice, we read his lips, we give birth to the children of God, who sing his praise. That's what musicians are."

Now YOU might be the ones, because of YOUR concepts of 'God' and YOUR experiences with 'religions', not even know what HE is talking about, and I find it rather arrogant(if I do say), to refute what he is saying about that, when HE is the one who experienced it, not you, and your concepts of 'God' through the 'religious looking glass' (or anti-religious looking glass), that screwed up YOUR perceptions of a greater reality, and say he is wrong..don't know what he's talking about, and was in some sort of brain-lock to express exactly what it really was... when MAYBE HE DID....and he spoke it plainly...and you just can't conceive it!
I'm sure the reality and dimension(S) we live in are really very simple to understand and it is US that screw it up, believing those who wish to exploit us, by 'keeping us down'....ever consider that?

Beethoven was, or may have been reaching into a yet unknown dimension, or area that he musically described...and was considered a genius...maybe his 'genius' was merely the ability to 'go there'...
All this happens to be consistent with the dimensional findings spoken about on the video .

Why that should bother you does not speak well of your ability to grasp outside your little boxes! You are more hung up into your fear and loathing of religion, than a proselytizer is of their religious point of view....and the cool thing, (that a lot of blind people don't get, is that Jesus was NOT about founding, or continuing a 'religion'. Maybe he was talking about a reality that we all live in, and how to access it more easily for the reason of better LOVING each other...which in turn opens up greater access!!........and it has NOTHING to do with 'religion'!....The manipulators created that shit!.....and you are still feeling the effects of their venomous bite!

That being said...it's time for a little good harmonica music from
Carolyn Wonderland on Imus....(Notice how music speaks to both sides) . Funny thing about that.....could it be a higher form of communication???...from a higher place??....or you could run away because Imus is on Fox??
Whose cares!...Oh, and Beethoven was not so far off, at all!!!
Jeez, I understood it...and completely agree!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 03:18 PM

Fixed typo....easier to understand....:

Oh man....The protestant and Catholic 'religions' based in Europe, as either the co-adaptation of the Roman Empire, or as the revolt from it (Protestant Movement), is the model for what we in the Western 'Civilized' world understand as a 'religion'.....this carries with it a tremendous amount of how we view reality, how we modeled (or rebelled), our governments, political systems, points of view(of right or wrong), and pretty much all of how we see reality..religious or political, and even physical matter and properties. It has affected our science as well. This is all true.
The study of the shroud, and their findings, DO NOT endorse ANY religion, sect, or political system..other than, if the findings are indeed true, could (would) alter our perception of 'reality'. Being as the study opened up a new field of science, that which is consistent with quantum physics, 'string theory', 'membrane theory' and how they work...and guess what?..they use MUSIC (and harmonics)to describe how it all works and to describe our relationship to the dimensions...and there are MORE than the ONE we see!..FACT!!
When Beethoven spoke about this, he used these words: "The vibrations on the air are the breath of God speaking to man's soul. Music is the language of God. We musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear his voice, we read his lips, we give birth to the children of God, who sing his praise. That's what musicians are."

Now YOU might be the ones, because of YOUR concepts of 'God' and YOUR experiences with 'religions', not even know what HE is talking about, and I find it rather arrogant(if I do say), to refute what he is saying about that, when HE is the one who experienced it, not you, and your concepts of 'God' through the 'religious looking glass' (or anti-religious looking glass), that screwed up YOUR perceptions of a greater reality, and say he is wrong..don't know what he's talking about, and was in some sort of brain-lock to express exactly what it really was... when MAYBE HE DID....and he spoke it plainly...and you just can't conceive it!
I'm sure the reality and dimension(S) we live in are really very simple to understand and it is US that screw it up, believing those who wish to exploit us, by 'keeping us down'....ever consider that?

Beethoven was, or may have been reaching into a yet unknown dimension, or area that he musically described...and was considered a genius...maybe his 'genius' was merely the ability to 'go there'...
All this happens to be consistent with the dimensional findings spoken about on the video .

Why that should bother you does not speak well of your ability to grasp outside your little boxes! You are more hung up into your fear and loathing of religion, than a proselytizer is of their religious point of view....and the cool thing, (that a lot of blind people don't get, is that Jesus was NOT about founding, or continuing a 'religion'. Maybe he was talking about a reality that we all live in, and how to access it more easily for the reason of better LOVING each other...which in turn opens up greater access!!........and it has NOTHING to do with 'religion'!....The manipulators created that shit!.....and you are still feeling the effects of their venomous bite!

That being said...it's time for a little good harmonica music from
Carolyn Wonderland on Imus....(Notice how music speaks to both sides) . Funny thing about that.....could it be a higher form of communication???...from a higher place??....or you could run away because Imus is on Fox??
Whose cares!...Oh, and Beethoven was not so far off, at all!!!
Jeez, I understood it...and completely agree!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 04:09 PM

The study of the shroud, and their findings, DO NOT endorse ANY religion, sect, or political system..other than, if the findings are indeed true, could (would) alter our perception of 'reality'.

The study of the shroud did not have the endorsement of any religion, sect or political system as its remit. Its aim was to discover how old the thing was and to investigate the nature of the imprint. The findings, as I understand them, are "true" in that they conclude that the shroud is a medieval piece of cloth containing an imprint that still holds mysteries. Now, all of nature holds mysteries. Science valiantly closes in on them, a little at a time, and will probably never get to the bottom of everything (like most scientists, I kinda like that). But what science will never accept is the insertion of God into anything that can't, for now, be easily explained. Religion never ceases to do that in spite of the fact that it repeatedly gets its nose bloodied as science reveals more and more.

Beethoven was, or may have been reaching into a yet unknown dimension, or area that he musically described...and was considered a genius...maybe his 'genius' was merely the ability to 'go there'...
All this happens to be consistent with the dimensional findings spoken about on the video.

Absolute tommy-rot. As a man, Beethoven was as earthbound as can be, and his great achievement was to imbue his music with boundless humanity and tell us more about ourselves. Perhaps you ought to listen to a bit more of it (careful what you say, though: he's my hero, don't forget, and his bust is six inches from my right hand as I type this. I do know an awful lot about him. Just thought I'd mention it...). Whatever piece of Beethoven you listen to, his vision is always, in the end, not mystical at all. You disagree? Okay, name a piece that you suppose pole-vaults us into another mystical dimension, or whatever it is you're claiming, and I'll shoot you down in detail. It's been tried before, old boy. The most wonderful thing about Beethoven is that he's down here, one of us, exploring our condition and revealing all our best attributes. If you want "mysticism", go and smoke dope on top of Glastonbury Tor with all the other wankers, and don't forget your tom-tom!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 05:36 PM

Steve: "....The study of the shroud did not have the endorsement of any religion, sect or political system as its remit. Its aim was to discover how old the thing was and to investigate the nature of the imprint. The findings, as I understand them, are "true" in that they conclude that the shroud is a medieval piece of cloth containing an imprint that still holds mysteries."

OK..Close, but NOT an 'imprint'...an image, holographic in nature caused by 'radiation, either of heat or light, or both. To 'lift' the image, to try to reproduce the image as accurately as possible, Ray Downing, from Macbeth Studios had to find out what caused it....THAT is where it gets interesting, as so far and the technical, and what they discovered....fair enough?

Steve: "....I kinda like that). But what science will never accept is the insertion of God into anything that can't, for now, be easily explained."

OK..but that is how you or them define 'GOD' with all it's properties...if they're/you're thinking of 'God' as a being, separate from the 'creation', a ruling guy with a big beard and silver hammer, waiting for us to get 'holy'..to bop us on the head, or to 'reward' the most 'self-righteous', as deemed by the adherence of some religious doctrine(s), then, of course, that would be a terrible misfortune of misunderstanding!!

Steve: "Absolute tommy-rot. As a man, Beethoven was as earthbound as can be, and his great achievement was to imbue his music with boundless humanity and tell us more about ourselves."

Not 'tommy-rot'....yes Beethoven was a 'earthbound man, as we know men..but that DOES NOT account for where he was able to tap into...as WE all CAN!!..and as far as his music being able to 'tell us more about ourselves', RIGHT!..because there is a 'fabric' that we all share....that 'fabric' links us...and to tap into it, and that what makes up it's properties, he doesn't draw a separation between that, and 'God'...I agree!

Steve: "....and don't forget your tom-tom!"

Keyboards, or guitar..and I may add that in composing 1/2 hour and greater pieces on the keyboards, tapping into what I tap into...if find NO discrepancy, whatsoever. As it is, as of now, at this posting, 6 separate hospitals, 4 therapists, and three extended care hospitals, along with several physicians(including sevaral cardiologists and a neurosurgeon are utilizing 'my' music, for the healing and recovery of their patients..no shit!..Hearing that even blew me away!!
Steve, there IS something to this. I know from where I am when I compose/play/perform it, the vibes in the place, and the re-actions of the listeners, along with what they tell me they experienced. It really IS uncanny...but it's wonderful!

Hey, How did you like the harp player on the Carolyn Wonderland link?..I thought they all kicked ass!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 05:37 PM

Steve: "....The study of the shroud did not have the endorsement of any religion, sect or political system as its remit. Its aim was to discover how old the thing was and to investigate the nature of the imprint. The findings, as I understand them, are "true" in that they conclude that the shroud is a medieval piece of cloth containing an imprint that still holds mysteries."

OK..Close, but NOT an 'imprint'...an image, holographic in nature caused by 'radiation, either of heat or light, or both. To 'lift' the image, to try to reproduce the image as accurately as possible, Ray Downing, from Macbeth Studios had to find out what caused it....THAT is where it gets interesting, as so far and the technical, and what they discovered....fair enough?

Steve: "....I kinda like that). But what science will never accept is the insertion of God into anything that can't, for now, be easily explained."

OK..but that is how you or them define 'GOD' with all it's properties...if they're/you're thinking of 'God' as a being, separate from the 'creation', a ruling guy with a big beard and silver hammer, waiting for us to get 'holy'..to bop us on the head, or to 'reward' the most 'self-righteous', as deemed by the adherence of some religious doctrine(s), then, of course, that would be a terrible misfortune of misunderstanding!!

Steve: "Absolute tommy-rot. As a man, Beethoven was as earthbound as can be, and his great achievement was to imbue his music with boundless humanity and tell us more about ourselves."

Not 'tommy-rot'....yes Beethoven was a 'earthbound man, as we know men..but that DOES NOT account for where he was able to tap into...as WE all CAN!!..and as far as his music being able to 'tell us more about ourselves', RIGHT!..because there is a 'fabric' that we all share....that 'fabric' links us...and to tap into it, and that what makes up it's properties, he doesn't draw a separation between that, and 'God'...I agree!

Steve: "....and don't forget your tom-tom!"

Keyboards, or guitar..and I may add that in composing 1/2 hour and greater pieces on the keyboards, tapping into what I tap into...if find NO discrepancy, whatsoever. As it is, as of now, at this posting, 6 separate hospitals, 4 therapists, and three extended care hospitals, along with several physicians(including sevaral cardiologists and a neurosurgeon are utilizing 'my' music, for the healing and recovery of their patients..no shit!..Hearing that even blew me away!!
Steve, there IS something to this. I know from where I am when I compose/play/perform it, the vibes in the place, and the re-actions of the listeners, along with what they tell me they experienced. It really IS uncanny...but it's wonderful!

Hey, How did you like the harp player on the Carolyn Wonderland link?..I thought they all kicked ass!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:25 PM

jack-i dont think i have called you dishonest,at least that was not my intention.but i do believe that worldview affects research.
for example when you witness yourself the amazing preservation of the remains of blood product in dinosaur bone.is it not true that prior to this discovery that this was thought impossible.now it is thought perfectly feasible .the presupposition is that dinos died out 65 million yr ago so therefore it must be possible.creationists believing in a much younger world are not so surprised.the discovery is presented as evidence for dinos being relatively recent.
or am i missing something here?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 07:00 PM

OK..Close, but NOT an 'imprint'...an image, holographic in nature caused by 'radiation, either of heat or light, or both. To 'lift' the image, to try to reproduce the image as accurately as possible, Ray Downing, from Macbeth Studios had to find out what caused it....THAT is where it gets interesting, as so far and the technical, and what they discovered....fair enough?

Well, I did say that there were still mysteries surrounding this owld rag, didn't I. I'm very happy for you to tell me that it could be any of those things, though I'm equally sure that the information won't change my life. But what would really impress me would to be told that, against overwhelming odds, this cloth truly does bear the imprint of the actual dead body of Jaysus. Whaddya think, Guffo? Do you believe that it does?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 07:16 PM

***************************NEWS ALERT**************************

Jesus shaped potato dug on farm outside of Enid, Oklahoma...

**************************Details @ 11*************************

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:41 PM

when you witness yourself the amazing preservation of the remains of blood product in dinosaur bone.is it not true that prior to this discovery that this was thought impossible.now it is thought perfectly feasible .the presupposition is that dinos died out 65 million yr ago so therefore it must be possible.creationists believing in a much younger world are not so surprised.the discovery is presented as evidence for dinos being relatively recent.
or am i missing something here?

Are you missing something? I should bloody coco! I'll tell you what you're missing. Real science, that's what. Real science does not dismiss anything as impossible. Real science has dating techniques (that you don't want to hear about as they don't fit in with your ignorant prejudices) that are rock-solid, ultra-reliable and repeatable. Real science gives us pretty accurate dating of any fossil remains you care to name. Not only that, real science has a ton of evidence from geology and evolution which corroborates dating. And guess what, pete. It all fits. Like a glove. There are gaps, of course, and they give concern to scientists and fuel doubts, but we wouldn't have it any other way. What don't fit are assertions plucked from nowhere that the Earth is a few thousand years old just because some long-dead deluded twat who probably never existed rattled on about a bloody ark or something and that dinosaurs chased Raquel Welch. I'm not surprised that you and you pig-stupid ilk pounce with delight on the findings about dinosaur blood (which I can't even be arsed to check, so maybe I'll take your word for it). I'm sure you'll derive great comfort from it. But, as ever, you are wrong. Stupidly, deludedly, blindly, ignorantly wrong. Get off your lazy arse, open your eyes and look for evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:45 PM

And it's not a presupposition, you insulting bugger. It's an established fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:52 PM

Jesus shaped potato dug on farm outside of Enid, Oklahoma...

Are you sure it wasn't Enid's actual baby and not a spud at all? Shaped like Jaysus you say? Ask Enid if she's virgo intacta. If she is, well it's Jaysus fer sure!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:59 PM

Enid is a town, Steve... Towns don't talk... Maybe you could talk with the mayor... They got the potato in a root cellar under town hall...

Well, that's what I heard...

I once thought I read "Jesus" in my alphabet soup but missed by just an "e"... I had the rest... "JSUS" so I figured it was God tellin' me that He don't like "e"s???

That has stuck with me for 50 years... Guess God talks to different folks different ways???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 09:13 PM

It's not an imprint.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 05:47 AM

I suspected it was a town. There's one called Alice in Antipodaeia. Next time you have alphabet soup think more broadly. You might find God is an Irishman and was trying to spell JAYSUS which he could do even though hating "e"s and you went and missed it. God spake unto you 50 years ago - and you bloody missed it. That is exactly how atheism is born.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 05:52 AM

Not an imprint, huh? So if I ask the question often enough, and every time you give me a snippet of what it isn't, we'll eventually whittle it down to the nub, namely, whether you think that the Turin rag ever came into any sort of contact with the dead Jesus. In the words of my hero Brucie Forsyth, good gyme, good gyme!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: sciencegeek
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 07:13 AM

I had said earlier that there is no alternative to science... thinking along the lines that the alternative to sanity is insanity or to rationality would be irrationality....

but it now occurs to me that more correct answer to the original question is that pseudo-science is the alternative to science... skewed worldview that does not follow scientific method, but twists around facts and jargon to put forth the illusion - to the untrained, gullible or others who only want to believe a certain viewpoint regardless of what anyone else says.

if you want to believe something on faith... fine that is your own business... but honest about it. my business is science and I resent having it it twisted and distorted into a prop for anti-scientific purposes.

science is the study of the natural world using scientific method to test and experiment with the goal of gaining a better understanding of the natural world by coming up with testable conclusions.

pseudo science is not a study of anything... the conclusion has already been made and the perpetrators of this hoax merely spend a lot of time and energy ignoring all the facts in context and try to spin their "conclusion" as foregone fact.


it's a bloody con job!

if it's important to "prove" that someone named Jesus was born during the reign of Herod, then you need to dig up an historical record from the Roman census to support that. that's the job of historians, not scientists.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 08:45 AM

sciencegeek said: if it's important to "prove" that someone named Jesus was born during the reign of Herod, then you need to dig up an historical record from the Roman census to support that. that's the job of historians, not scientists.

I haven't visited this thread in ages, so was really quite lucky to come across that comment from sciencegeek. It is key to remember what sort of question you want answering. For many questions, science is by far the best method we have (and as I've said often enough in this thread I'm a scientist by nature and employment.) But there are valid alternatives for other questions, such as the historian referred to above. Where there is a conflict between science and another approach I'd always go with science [after suitable verification and stress-testing of the answer]. But I do not think that the scientific method is the best way of solving all problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 09:24 AM

The historical evidence for Jesus is as good as it is for, say, Euripides.

They haven't found his birth certificate either.

Otherwise, Sciencegeek, you're correct. If the shroud is a supernatural artifact, the scientific tests, including the radiocarbon dating, could only have supported that view, even if by definition they couldn't prove it. (An indisputable first-century radiocarbon date would have been a requirement.)

But they didn't.

Why should miraculous "resurrection energy" (which exists only in imagination) have interfered with the physical and chemical properties of the shroud anyway? It's a nonsense question, because as far as anyone can tell (including the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the U.S. National Council of Churches) a special kind of "resurrection energy" that can incidentally alter the chemical properties of carbon so as to match perfectly the 13th Century anti-shroud testimony of a Church official, has never existed. And if it did exist, then God seems to be playing a very strange trick on everyone by paradoxically making the shroud appear to support the skeptics.

There's possibility, which has the enormous advantage of not being paradoxical at all: that certain persons want to believe in that special energy (which would be even more special than supernatural energy *solely* generated by Resurrection, if it occurred) just so they can keep on claiming that scientists are a pack of bumbling idiots.

Except Creation "scientists."

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 09:27 AM

The historian, in order to get nearer the truth, still has to act "scientifically", which, among other things, means seeking, assessing and corroborating evidence. As with good science, more than a good dash of scepticism is required.

I would be wary of placing pseudo-science next to science as some kind of "alternative". By so doing you run the risk of elevating the exploits of charlatans of all kinds to equal-but-opposite status with real science. You only have to look at some of pete's posts in this thread to see how charlatans can be given false equivalence with genuine, hard-working, honest scientists. We should never, for example, allow egregious nonsense such as "creationist researchers" to pass unchallenged.

As for the existence or not of Jesus, I was of the impression that there was consensus among historians that he did exist. That is an entirely different thing, of course, to whether all or any of the words and deeds he's credited with have any credibility. I do kind of like the idea that he existed. I like to think that if he were alive today he'd be turning in his grave at the things said and done in his name. But what I'm almost certain of is that whatever it is on that shroud it has nothing to with him. Gusty...?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 09:56 AM

Other dimensions - SPOOKY!!!!


"I like to think that if he were alive today he'd be turning in his grave at the things said and done in his name."

Errrr!! Would you like to re-visit that sentence, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:00 AM

***************************NEWS FLASH**************************

The evidence is in and the number of angles that can dance on the
end of a pin has now been determined...

************************Details @ 11***************************

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:01 AM

Ahhhhh, the other angles... You know, angels... lol...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: sciencegeek
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:20 AM

Steve, I think if you reexamine my post, I clearly state that pseudo science is as viable an alternative as insanity is for sanity or irrationality is for reason...

the alternatives - if you want to call them such- are non viable.

in fact, pseudo science is basically an intellectual con job... scam..
hoax, etcetera etcetera etcetera

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:25 AM

Thinking about it, this website is stuffed with people who might just like to think that folklore adds an interesting dimension to debate. So the yet to be answered origin of the shroud imprint allows fanciful excitement.

A bit like starry pete hoping that because blood might be evident in some dinosaur archeology, then all bets are on again and his superstitious hypothesis remains in the realm of probability.

Fine. But let's not forget his mates also entertain the odd hypothesis that women and gay people are second class citizens so not all his fanciful waffle is benign.

Oh, and yet again I have to dash out to B&Q because they shut early today. Why? Because Christians aren't happy with equality. No. They still have demand privilege. And then they wonder why people get angry with them as they seek to brainwash people. Interesting thing science. They can denounce it but nothing they or any other superstitious nonsense can alter the findings.

The shroud? Comfort blanket more like.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:27 AM

Sorry about that, sciencegeek - I didn't intend it as a criticism in any case.

That was deliberate, Shimrod, a bit like the frustrated teacher who can't keep his class quiet, "Every time I open my mouth to speak, some fool starts talking!" Or that other teacher, telling off a cheeky boy, "Don't you DARE open your mouth when you're talking to me, boy!" I'll try to be less subtle!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:32 AM

Oh, and yet again I have to dash out to B&Q because they shut early today. Why? Because Christians aren't happy with equality. No. They still have demand privilege. And then they wonder why people get angry with them as they seek to brainwash people.

Yep, and I can't watch the remembrance ceremony without being regaled by some bloody bishop or other leading prayers and hymns, presumably working on the assumption that if we're not all dyed-in-the-wool believers already then we bloody well ought to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:44 AM

Science is a way of corralling thought, testing it against the real world and seeing if it maps correctly.    It may get refined as we learn more about thought itself, but as a fundamental discipline it is not likely to be replaced.

It is important though not to confuse "science"--a way of thinking -- with "physics"--a way of thinking about the material universe. The spirit wanders in many domains, so to speak, and a scientific approach can be useful in any of them. But they are not all going to respond in the mindless repetitive way that the physical domain does.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:54 AM

OK, Amos...agreed.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 11:10 AM

Actually, most scientific discovery comes from trial and error and thinking "wonder what happens if_______________"...

The problem I have is that after that empirical process and the errors have been set aside leaving the stuff that works we have to have so many folks who say they still don't believe the the non-errors, i.e. scientific findings...

It's also strange that when these people find themselves diagnosed with a scary disease that they are all over the inter net trying to find the best physician rather than using home remedies or snake oil???

I am also disturbed that the media, in general, feels that it needs to cater to these people as if they have anything to add...

99% of climatologists agree that "global warming" exists and that it is the result of man burning everything he can find to burn... This isn't open to debate between 50% of scientists who believe that and another 50% who don't... Yet the 1%, mostly who are not really scientists at all but slick lobbyists for Big Oil, get equal time in the media??? This is insane if we are going to get folks to realize the real science here...

I've told ya'll about my late pa-in-law... He had a degree in horticulture from a small mid-western college yet was an "expert on oil spills" (?) and a lobbyist for the American Petroleum Institute, API< who went to before Congress after the Exxon Valdez (as an expert) and told Congress, in essence, "Don't worry, be happy... The planet has ways of taking care of these things"... Where was the science in that??? Well, there wasn't any real science but he was...

...the expert, right???

Time to cut the microphone time for the wackos...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: sciencegeek
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 11:28 AM

Bobert.... I have have long maintained that the American public would never start to embrace an acceptance of global warming until it was something presented by a trusted figure in an impartial manner.

- after all, it means the rejection of the comfortable status quo lifestyle we've created and acknowledgement that we blew it with Reagan, et al -

so I have said that The Weather Channel has done more to raise America's gut feelings that global warming might be real than anything done by the Democrats or Green Party,

back in the day we had faith in Walter Chronkite or David Brinkly, to mention a few, but the news media has changed too much for that to happen now.

but people turn on TWC and leave it on... and the folks they trust for weather reporting are now talking about global warming and how it's affecting the weather. may sound crazy... but human nature can be really wackey.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 11:56 AM

The consensus for human-induced global warming is a lot more than 50-50. More like 95-5. There is no reputable scientific body that denies the link between human activity and global warming.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 01:35 PM

"That was deliberate, Shimrod, ... I'll try to be less subtle!"

Sorry. Steve - that was rather gauche of me. I suppose I just assumed that 'Geek from Shroud' and that nice Mr pete the really, really nice fundamentalist (he's sooo nice!) had finally driven you over the edge!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 02:03 PM

Hot off the press!

I've just been 'door-stepped' by Mormons! I told them that the world had just had a lucky escape by not falling into the clutches of a Mormon! Being religious fanatics they were unphased by that and asked if I , "wanted to learn more about Jesus Christ?" I said "no" and shut the door. The mind boggles at the sheer single-mindededness of these idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 03:00 PM

***************************NEWS FLASH**************************

The evidence is in and the number of angles that can dance on the
end of a pin has now been determined...that's how Bobert (and others) THINKS he's not a bigot....but bigotry toward someone's religion is OK!!
Bobert dances at 11!

************************Details @ 11***************************

P.S. I'm NOT into 'religion'...but some of you guys are REALLY far into more bigotry than your 'so-called' liberal mindset would ever allow you to admit.....(that's not the only thing that it limits, either!)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative to Science??
From: GUEST,Gust from Sanity
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 03:02 PM

500!...can't believe that by 500, they still haven't gotten a clue about trying to prove a negative...and then they try to say they have a 'scientific mind'...ROFL!!!

GfS