I am gone

Subject: I am gone
From: olddude
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 10:13 PM

anyone needs to get a hold of me Susan, Ditty, Spaw, Peace, Kat, Jerry and a host of other have my email.   I have had enough of the political BS up to last a lifetime ... When we allow people that steal the identity of our friends and I end up exposing that crap to my kids I lose it... I know facebook is not Mudcat but the only people who know I am close to Bruce is Here on this site ... when we decide to clean it up ... someone let me know
until then I am outta here ...

What crap!!

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 10:17 PM

Very sad news.

Don't know you particulary, but I've enjoyed your comments.

Take care and I hope it won't be too long before we see you again.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:00 PM

Pretty much what I've been feeling, Dan, but if we leave the bastards get it all to themselves even more and then we'd miss out on the beauty of the music section with Frank Hamilton, Sandy & Caroline, Art Thieme and so many others. Take a break and then maybe come back just to the music section? Regardless, it has been a real treat to have you here and esp. to hear your return to music. THAT is special! Thanks for sharing and lovin'.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:11 PM

I'm not sure which particular incident you're referring to that upset you, OldDude, but that's politics. I call it "the Great Divider", because it can make enemies out of people who would otherwise get along just fine with each other. It seems to bring out the worst in people for some reason.

I've done myself the favour of simply avoiding the serious political threads here pretty much for the past 2 or 3 days, and I'm more relaxed and happy as a result of that...and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. I recommend to others who find the political hatreds in this place getting to them to do the same...just don't get involved in the political fights if you can possibly find the determination to resist doing so.

(and I know that is not easy...)

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:17 PM

Something to do with Facebook, is it?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: bankley
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:27 PM

Old Dude, I'll miss you... you bring a freshness to the site...
a wide-eyed wonder... I stay out of the basement pretty much...
it might get lonelier at the top, but the view is much better...

In semi-related news, I've been witnessing a couple of 9/11 Truthers tear at each other in a public way, which probably makes the Big Boys happy.... hope you feel better soon...... R.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:37 PM

LH, if you look at the FB thread up top, Mudcatters on FB, you'll see that several of us have had our Mudcat photos hijacked for bogus memberships over there. (It gets political, so I won't muck up this thread with any more about it.)

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:46 PM

Yeah, I see.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: meself
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:49 PM

It was good having you here. Don't know what happened - but I wish it hadn't.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: olddude
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:11 AM

It is nothing to do with you good people I love you and you know that and I am just incredibly pissed off, I will take a break and cool down. Amazing we let people continue here that do such things and amazing that my kids had to see that garbage and then say "that is Bruce your friend Dad?" how absolutely awful. About ready to blow a fuse ... gotta take a break ... forgive my outburst let me cool down awhile

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:59 AM

Dan, I'm sorry to see you go. It's frustrating to have to muck around with this kind of online nonsense, because there seems to be no way to pull the plug on the pranksters. I suppose I need to go look at my own information at Facebook. I don't use it much, though lately I've posted links to a few topical articles (I much prefer Twitter).

You've been a blessing behind the scenes for a number of people who really needed a boost up, and I for one won't forget how your generosity last fall made life so much easier for a dear friend.

Good luck sorting it all out. Stay sane.

SRS

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:22 AM

Sorry that some have upset you, OD. I've found two sites where someone is already using my handle, but I think/hope that it is just coincidence.
What Meself said goes for me, too.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:32 AM

what others have said. I've enjoyed your posts.

see ya when ya get back

sandra

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:51 AM

ok

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: mg
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:20 AM

I am sorry to see you go..but is there a way to trace whoever did something with your identity? That is against the law and they should be reported and certainly kicked off mudcat and reported to whoever this gets reported to. mg

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: open mike
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:37 AM

oh i thought you were just bothered by the jello thread..
sorry to hear that you have been involved in such a nasty
prank. I hope it all gets cleared up. take care. laurel
p.s. I have enjoyed your music and your posts, and hope
that you will come back here again soon. I don't think
it is the actual mudcat that is the problem. there are
a lot of folks (faces) on facebook that do not come here.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 03:32 AM

Ditto to all of the above. We like having you around here. There is no easy way to stop people abusing an open site like this or Facebook. I basically try to ignore the bad stuff here and concentrate on the good - and there is still plenty of it.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: gnomad
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 05:11 AM

I seldom post on these farewell threads, just open them to see who is the latest to depart. It is often someone whose contributions I have barely registered, so I just ignore the thread.

O.D. I don't really understand what has happened here (facebook and its like being closed books to me) so I can't comment on your reason for going, but I do know I will miss your contributions.   I hope you will feel able to return, and soon.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: maeve
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:18 AM

Take your cool-down break Dan, then when you return I'd like to see more songs pouring out. I'll be in touch via email.

Be well,
maeve

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Beer
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:45 AM

As Bankley said; "it may be lonely at the top", but it is also a lot fresher and enjoyable.
I do come below the line but seldom participate.
Good luck to you and here from you soon
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:52 AM

Best thing everyone could do is ignore "Facebook" & the other exhibitionist sites & their waves of BS. They're largely a crock for the "me" generation & shouldn't be taken seriously at all.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:57 AM

"I know facebook is not Mudcat but the only people who know I am close to Bruce is Here on this site ... when we decide to clean it up ... someone let me know
until then I am outta here ...

What crap!!"


The internet is filled with dangerous people, crazy people...The BNP has more than their fair share of both.

Yes, they're targetting Mudcat, because they're incensed, and worried, by the way the Folk World is fighting back. They know that musicians will change the way people think, far more than they ever will.

Dan, to them, you, Bruce and all songwriters who are against them are dangerous, because you can reach many more people with your songs, your words and your voices than they can. You can spread the message of Good far more than they can spread their message of Evil.

Don't let it get to you too much. They're scum.

I am, however, in complete agreement with you over Mudcat sorting something out about this.

To lose the BS section would be a great shame. Not only is it filled with some wonderfu humour, but it also has masses of interesting and informative subjects in it, the fighting back AGAINST the BNP b*stards being one of them. To lose that, would be a great shame and it would be giving them *exactly* what they want, which is Suppression. If they can suppress the voices in here, then they have won a huge battle, because in here lies an army of people who can reek havoc on the BNP and their ilk, and they damn well know it.

Bruce is being given the most inspirational anger to write some of his great political songs, and who knows, the BNP may be doing us all a favour if that happens, because when Bruce socks it 'em with his words, many people sit up and listen...and his political songs are great!

So tell your kids that your pal Bruce is pissing the BNP cowards off so much that they're doing what they're doing to him.

That's what they are, cowards..snivelling little scumbags who have to take the hatred that has twisted their souls, out to other people.

Facebook should be sued to Kingdom Come for what they're allowing to happen. Hopefully, that WILL happen.

Mudcat carries 'weight' these days, perhaps far more than Joe and Max realise. The BNP realise it, and that's why they're trying to close the political part of it down, by doing what they're doing.

Just my opinion, but I think the time has now come for the 'Guests' button to be turned off, so that anyone who now posts in here HAS to register. It would make Mudcat a far nicer place..it would make the Mods lives much easier too..and it would ensure that 'orrid little oiks who appear in here to post personally abusive messages, knowing that they cannot be PM'd or traced, would no longer bother with Mudcat.

They're of no loss to anyone.

It won't stop the scumbags from reading what's written here....but it'll sure make certain that they can't upset people *in* here.

This is a Community, and some of those within it are now under attack.
We should all stand together to counter that attack.


Write a song about this, Dan...

I know you can do it...

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 08:07 AM

Now, listen here, Oldster...

Just take a few days off and come on back... Hey, this is the innernet and for the most part folks is purdy okay.... Yeah, some are jerks but that's life...

Yeah, the jerks have pounded on me over the years here and at another site I go to but in the final anaylsis, who the "f" cares??? It's their blood pressure and karma... Not ours... Stand up for what you believe, fight them when ***you like*** and if you ain't the mood then ignore 'um... All they want is to get you to react because most of them are eat up with emotional and psychological problems... You ain't and I ain't... Their problem, not yours...

Like I said, take a few days off... Don't let the sociopaths run you away... Don't gove them that power... Underneath it all these folks are not all that tough.... They really are cowards and that's why the innernet is the perfect place for them to ***play*** bully... In the real world these people are punks and whimps...

That's the real deal... That's why they hide beneath their little handles... That's why they don't have any transparancy... That's why they don't attend Getaways...

Bobert

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 08:39 AM

Don't forget to keep pounding the "[e-mail]" email addy.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: kendall
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 08:45 AM

Jeez man, dont let the bastards drive you away!

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: topical tom
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 08:47 AM

Dan, I'm truly sorry to see you leave and hope that you will decide to return sometime later on. I enjoyed your music and interesting posts. Take care of yourself and cursed be they who cause a man like you to have to leave Mudcat.Remember, though, I'm sure you have many friends here who wish you well, as the posts attest to.Hope to see you "down the road"!

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:07 AM

Can I just ask Joe and Max something....

Joe, who would you rather see posting in here, 'Guest' supporters of the BNP, or fine musicians, songwriters and really kind, supportive people such as Dan?

Do you feel it's right that good people are being driven away because Mudcat won't stand up to the bad?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:20 AM

Lizzie, what does 'standing up to the bad' mean? How does it look if Mudcat does it? Leave Facebook out of it since Max has no control over Facebook.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:59 AM

The use of your image without your permission is illegal. I assume FB knows this. Putting words in your mouth is illegal.

To use lousy Latin: Illegitimi non carborundum.

But if you can find who did it...well, computer geeks know ways....

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:59 AM

Well, I would like to see any BNP threads eliminated if that is possible. It seems they are causing all this trouble between catters and Facebook.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:07 AM

GUEST,hg

Well, I would like to see any BNP threads eliminated if that is possible

Which is precisely what the BNP trolls are trying to achieve. The reputation of British folk music is under serious threat from being tainted by these idiots. I see no point in trying to engage with them in any way but I Think it is vital to make sure that everyone is kept aware of their true nature.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:25 AM

"Lizzie, what does 'standing up to the bad' mean? How does it look if Mudcat does it? Leave Facebook out of it since Max has no control over Facebook."

Well, Jeri, I guess it means that messages like this:

RE: I am gone
From: GUEST,hg - PM
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:59 AM

Well, I would like to see any BNP threads eliminated if that is possible. It seems they are causing all this trouble between catters and Facebook.

....wouldn't be allowed on Mudcat.

Yes, of course, I understand that Facebook is nothing to do with Max, but looking after folks on here is and making sure that Mudcat is a place of integrity, as far as you can make it.

I just think it's very sad that people such as Dan feel they no longer want to post here because Mudcat continues to allow the 'Guest' poster policy which is like a red rag to a bull, a moth to a flame, to those who want to cause trouble on the internet, that's all.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:27 AM

"How does it look if Mudcat does it?"

I feel it looks as if Mudcat has adopted 'zero tolerance' towards people who want to hurt and wound others, and that's got to be a good thing, hasn't it?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:30 AM

Well said Lizzie.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: ClaireBear
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:40 AM

OldDude, I understand your anger, but I'll miss you and hope you come back soon.

Claire

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Gweltas
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:48 AM

Come back to us soon and just please ignore the smart-ass hackers. They are pathetically sad people who are so desperate for attention that, if they can't get positive attention ..... negative attention is fine by them. The only solution is to deny them the satisfaction of knowing that their actions have caused hurt, or even been noticed. They so absolutely HATE not be noticed !!
I once had the unpleasant experience, as a moderator in an otherwise well behaved and polite chat room, when some little dirt bag came in to the room , using an oh so subtle "tweak" on my own chat nickname and began using the most agressive and obscene language to all in there. I kicked him/her out, but he/she kept coming back in, so we agreed to close the chat room and I stayed off line for a week. It was really weird and upsetting to see my "false double" being so offensive to people that I respected.
Such maliciously personal attacks are shocking, very hard to deal with emotionaly, and leave one feeling angry and vulnerable. You have my sincere sympathy.
I would also like to take this opportunity to tell you how much I have enjoyed your songs, your singing, and your posts, and I fervently hope it will not be long till we all welcome you back into Mudcat fold.
Best Wishes and God bless,
Anne XX

Subject: RE: I am a real gone Cat
From: Severn
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:50 AM

You'll be missed for your kindness and help given, your music and your good humor. Take the time you need and hopefully come back soon. Keep in touch, whatever.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:50 AM

I have read all the posts in this thread and don't understand how Max is being held responsible for Facebook's failings. Tak up the problem with them and if they are unresponsive close your account.

I too hope olddude remains even as a non-member. I enjoy his enthusiasm, his music and his posts. PM has gone.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:27 PM

Count me in as another member who is sorry to see Dan leave. Hopefully, he will eventually return.

I recognize that Mudcat is not a democracy. But if it were, I'd be in favor of guest posting only above the line and never in the BS section unless

1. a member posts as a guest in order to ask a question or share a personal situation of a sensitive nature

2. members post to Secret Santa and other such secret threads

3. a member has moderator approved personas such as Little Hawks's Chongo Chimp and Shane.

Under this scenario, the moderators would make an exception to the "No Guest posting in the BS section" rule.


Also, I'm not computer tech savvy, but it would seem to me that those administrators who know computers would be able to catch and ban a member who is creating "sockpuppet" Mudcat memberships (joining under a different name). It also seems to me that any Mudcat member who is identified as having used other member's name, identifying information, and or photos/videos without that member's prior permission should be banned from this site.


I think that members/supporters of the BNP would love that Mudcat banned any discussion about BNP polices and activities. But I agree with those who have said that we shouldn't give the BNP what they want. If Mudcat were to ban the mention of BNP, that would mean that discussions about Folk Against Fascism and other such organizations would also be banned or at least would be severely limited. And I think that would be a serious mistake.

Lastly, I recognize that this thread has-in part-become one that raises such meta questions as "Where are we? Why? And what can we do better?" such as this one has become. I think every organization and community needs to consider these questions every now and then.

I sincerely hope that this post and other meta type posts aren't deleted from this thread.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:45 PM

Hopefully, Dan will be back. I respect him, and I think a lot of us have been through that 'I've HAD it with this place' thing.

OK, so we eliminate all discussion of the BNP.
Then we have to eliminate all discussion of the KKK, white supremacists, then it's any political party that's ever been linked to those things. And we can't discuss Nazis, so no threads about the modern ones or WWII are allowed, then we purge the songs that might offend people.

Azizi, that isn't possible unless every member is required to post from the same computer and ONLY that specific computer and it has to have its own IP address permanently assigned.

As for no guest posts in BS, I've supported that. Keep in mind that to steal pictures from Mudcat, the person has to be a member. He/she may never have posted to Mudcat though.

There are nasty people all over the internet and there are subjects that continuously wind people up. The main consideration is your own participation. Our own contribution IS the ONLY THING we have control over. If we don't have control, it's a problem we individually need to fix for ourselves and not try to blame on someone else, be it Mudcat or a troll here.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:52 PM

There are ways that BNP trolls could be exposed. But they would require changes to the ways that things are done here.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:55 PM

Lao-Tse, in his great teachings of Taoism (a philosophy, not a religion), said, "By opposing an enemy you give it strength."

One has to think about that at some length or read the Taoist literature at some length to get what he was driving at, though. If you just read the statement above and react to it instantly, you won't get what he was driving at at all, and you'll just get angry...thinking he is advising knuckling under to evil. Well, he isn't. He's advising an independent course of your own, rather than a life based upon reaction against others.

So I won't go on about it much, cos it would just provoke arguments here that would go on and on and on...

But here's another example of the same thing. Mother Teresa was asked if she would attend an antiwar demonstration. She said, "No, but I will attend a peace demonstration."

By locking horns with people over sore issues, specially people you can't change, you bring a lot more strife into the world...and you stimulate those very people into gearing up for major conflict with YOU...and their commitment to their cause becomes stronger. By planting a garden, on the other hand...by making something beautiful...by playing great folk music of your own...or by contributing to brotherhood in your society in many positive ways, you improve the world around you and you find peace and harmony in your own experience of life.

And, no....I'm not going to fight with anyone here about that. ;-) I don't wish to, and it wouldn't improve the situation for either them or me.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:20 PM

"OK, so we eliminate all discussion of the BNP.
Then we have to eliminate all discussion of the KKK, white supremacists, then it's any political party that's ever been linked to those things. And we can't discuss Nazis, so no threads about the modern ones or WWII are allowed, then we purge the songs that might offend people."



I don't think anyone's asking for that, Jeri. In fact surely the opposite is true, in that we don't want to be suppressed from discussing any of the above subjects, or many others.

It's the 'Guest' policy that seems to cause trouble, over and again.

And in answer to a comment from above there, no-one's blaming Max for the Facebook problems are they? They're simply saying, I think, that allowing the same people/person to post as a Guest in here, is wrong.

And it is.

What's the problem with making sure that ALL who post to your board are traceable?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:28 PM

Well Jeri, if mudcatters could stop Shambles from posting repeatedly that we should have the right to free speech, why not do the same with hate groups? The logic here escapes me.
harpy

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:31 PM

The one thing Max can do something about on FB is delete the fake members of the Mudcat group over there which he has done, and gladly. The other admin there, Mike, can also do that, so write to them if you have a bogus one there as a member of the FB Mudcat.

I agree with Jeri, we need to end Guest postings to the BS. I don't know how we can do that and still allow for the secret santa play and some of the regular "guests" such as Chongo, unless each one was assigned a "Guest, whatever name" which stayed permanent, but that wouldn't work well for the santa thing and it would smack of more than one membership which is generally not allowed.

I don't think we should start banning things, BUT I DO think we should have a separate section for all BS pertaining to politics!

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: open mike
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:43 PM

who is the Mike Gibson who started the mudcat facebook page?

does he have a nick name here?

he and Max co-host the facebook page, and can hopefully control
what happens on that page, alone, if not all of facebook!

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:44 PM

Well, Dan I'm just so glad that I have contact with you and your music other than here on mudcat because I would feel a great loss otherwise.

What is happening on facebook is a serious matter. These people have access to personal information of the people who unwittingly accept the friends' invites. I think that one of the points that Dan is making is that we should all be taking positive steps wherever we can to discourage and put a stop to things like this.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:11 PM

I really don't know enough about any of it to comment on the specific problem, but I would like to offer a couple of observations.

First, thanks again, Fearless Max for taking the freedom of speech to the highest level you possibly could, only using banishment as a last resort after Mudcatters were repeatedly bullied and taunted.

Secondly, Mudcatters also have another freedom, as has been offered in this and many other threads... many, many, many times... you don't have to read or post to any thread. You can start a thread that says you are not going to read a particular thread. It's been done. Really. I read some of it.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:13 PM

It's extremely easy for a facebook group's admins to evict a member of the group and to delete posts, but the admins don't have access to the IP numbers of the members, so it's not possible for an admin to track one person using multiple facebook accounts. That would have to be done by the people at facebook, I think. If someone is determined to cause problems in a group by using multiple facebook accounts, it could potentially create quite a lot of work for the admins. This work would be made a lot easier by people alerting the admins to the presence of a copycat account, but if the admins had to search for them constantly themselves, it would be daunting.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:35 PM

As a mudcatter who hasn't been around much recently, and a facebook member, and a mudcat on facebook member, and as a supporter of several causes on facebook I am certainly dismayed. I would certainly argue vigilance for the facebook mudcat moderators, or just delete the group and start it up in the near future. LH, I'm sorry, but I can't let your statement go...beautiful the thought may be. If we never took contrary positions with those we disagree with, even those that are entrenched in their viewpoint, things would be pretty bleak LH. Sometimes you need to fight, or at least argue, and come at people again and again with your thoughts and evidence, let them come at you with theirs, and then come at them even harder if you believe YOURS is the just opinion. I am dismayed by this BNP stuff, but I will not run with my tail between my legs for fear that it makes THEIR cause look stronger.

Secondly, I agree with those seeking a no guest posting rule. SOmething else I proposed once, and which virtually every other forum of any type I have been on has, is the word moderator next to a moderator's name, so that when a moderator is engaged in a thread, potential troublemakers are aware that their post ain't gonna be there for long, or might scare them away altogether. What's the point of having a username and a password to sign in with when I could just call myself a name, post something inflammatory, then log out, call myself another name and post something even more inflammatory? Nothing personal to any moderators and what have you...but this system is flawed. I have seen these kinds of discussions on here before, and nothing gets changed, just the same old issue a warning, and delete a post. How about someone tell us why hard changes aren't made at mudcat? I'm sorry, no disrespect intended, but when I see stuff like this after being away for a bit, it makes me wonder why I still click mudcat on my favs. I do click it because I enjoy the discussions, even get enjoyment out of butting heads with people from time to time, something I would like to continue.