BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM

My "grade level", sir? And what would that be, pray tell?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM

7.5, at a quick guess.


A

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 07:04 PM

Out of?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 07:09 PM

In short...
blipsnort

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 07:12 PM

Megan...the real truth is that I am almost struck dumb with admiration for your extraordinary mastery of Scots dialect. Almost. At any rate...I desperately want to be able to talk like that myself, specially in moments of passion. I have reasons which I cannot divulge for this concern...but let me ask you this: What should I say to a Scottish gel when I am engaged in, well...you know...with her...and things are getting really heated up?

What would be the perfect series of remarks to make at a time like that, using broad Scots dialect?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 07:56 PM

Well, I finally decided to look in the OED, and forfend is used in several quotations from the 1380s. Forbid is quoted from 1175, so it seems to have priority. So forbear!

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: pdq
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:03 PM

So forbear!

Well, there go a whole bunch of pickanick baskets.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:31 PM

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:37 PM

Sorry for the balk post!

Little Hawk says:
"Backwoodsman got if perfectly when he said of "heaven forfend" that it "Sounds more like the kind of pretentious bollox that some overpaid Chelsea-dwelling barrister might come out with in order to discombooberate his pals whilst supping his champagne in a trendy wine-bar."

Heh! That's exactly how I see it."

The fact that you don't recognise a word that is valid english useage doesn't make it improper. We (the British) seem to have problems with other countries using our language and trying to bend it to their preferences.
As has been mentioned above, the english language has a (perhaps unparalleled) vocabulary, with slight nuances to each word. To decide that one particular word should no longer be used (in favour of another) impoverishes our language.

PS I accept that Lisa in "The Simpsons" has added 'Embiggens' to the language. (though I don't like it)

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:45 PM

Ah...Nigel...if you only realized how deadly serious I am about all this...how I lie awake at night wondering how I can get the word "forfend" banned from the English language...how I yearn for the simple days when people at nothing but corn bread and bacon and limited their discourse to 150 common words and phrases...

If only! ;-D

I will not REST until you are all compelled to do it MY way, d'you hear me! I am on a crusade here, one that can end only in death or total victory.   (there's a little of George Bush in all of us...)

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:10 PM

Language, in case anyone hasn't noticed, can be fun.And we don' need no steatocephalic critics who object to correct, if unusual usage.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:55 PM

Oh, yes we do!

("Isn't this the room for arguments? I came here for an argument!")

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:18 AM

This is not an argument - it's simply two participants each gainsaying the other!

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:11 AM

Well this is where I have to admit that I had never seen or heard the phrase 'heaven forfend' until reading this thread today. Dead educational 'ere innit!

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:47 AM

My mother, an American born in Pittsburgh in 1918 and raised in various places in the Midwest, often said 'Saints forfend!' As in:

'Elvis Presley might be the main star at the Youth Festival.'
'Saints forfend!'

Heaven knows where she picked it up, but 'forfend' has been around for quite a while.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

I had never seen the expression "heaven forfend" either Mrs Duck, until a few years ago on this forum. That's what makes me think it is some kind of trendy catch phrase that has caught on just lately amongst the psuedo-intellectual Starbucks crowd who like to flummox other people and impress one another with their supposed verbal sophistication.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:43 PM

Forsooth! 'Tis time to forswear use of this thread, it is forspent, further posts must pay a forfeit.

All of the 'for-' words are in the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

Anyone with the slightest reading knowledge of English should be aware of them. Harrumpf!

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:53 AM

I've only seen it used in books,- You wouldn't hear it much in a factory,- but I have been aware of it since my teens. Which were a while ago.
If it's good enough for Bill Shakespeare and in Percy's 'Relics...' then it is good enough for anyone.

When did shops become 'outlet stores?' When did spectacles become 'eyeglasses?' When did mean stop meaning mean and mean nasty?'

And who put the bop in the bop, shebop, shebop.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:54 AM

Bill Haley?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:30 AM

No, forsooth - did he not put the ram in the ramalamadingdong ?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:00 PM

Lollygagging lackwits often fail to notice that an unusual word can lend emphasis o an otherwise dull and unconvincing narrative.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:10 PM

Yes, and the same is true of maundering pissyfants who strut around waving perfumed hankies in the air and portentiously braying "Mark my words!"

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:34 PM

Hey you gorbellied folly-fallen giglet guys
here's       some more ammo for you :)

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:14 PM

Didn't he also put the dip in the dip-de-dep-de-dip? Who was that man? I'd like to shake his hand - he made my baby fall in love with me.
Why it was Barry Mann with The Halos.
A-wop-bop-a-loo-mop-a-lop-bam-boom.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: pdq
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:37 PM

It's up to fivefend now. Inflation, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:42 PM

Good one, pdq.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

Little HAwk:

Disperse, and foreswear this obsession with the rationalization of your own ignorance. That you have learned an ancient word is a virtue; but ypur protesting it without grounds or merit turns it to a grave sin, full of hubris, and a braying demand for justification of know-nothingery. Giver o'er, sir, ere you damn yourself roundly with your own protestations!


A

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:10 PM

Say that to me in Scots dialect and I'll give it some serious consideration, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM

Now to start on all the fore's-

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM

Archaicisms are something like cussing--they're only effective if used very sparingly.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM

In the Geordie dialect I think 'whist lad haed ya gob' would do it LH :)

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:32 PM

Emma B:
'whist lad haed ya gob'
Trying to get this promoted 'above the line' by quoting the first line of the chorus of the Lambton Worm?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM

Heavens forfend Nigel!

ooops I think this is where we came in :)

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:35 PM

Bryn Pugh speaks of putting the ram in the rammalamber...
and Backwoodsman of putting the dip in the dipsheepdipsheepdip..

Is this thread creeping into animal husbandry?

And that term itself could lead to misunderstanding in an non-agrarian society.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:28 AM

Forfend ? it's Sarf Queensferry, end of the Forf Bridge.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:58 AM

GURNEY! Behave!

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:26 AM

"Is this thread creeping into animal husbandry? "

As Tom Lehrer said; "he majored in animal husbandry...until somebody caught him at it"

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Morticia
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:40 AM

Well heaven forfend is an expression I have used for years and probably more than once on here. Problem is, I always say it in an arch tone of voice and matching facial expression so people know I am using it to take the piss.

If only we could translate them things to here

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: rumanci
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:43 AM

Yes Morti. I'm guilty as charged with the same reasoning as you.
Do ya think it's OUR fault and HOW did LH never notice ?   LOL

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM

LH:

Whist, lad! Haed ya gob!

There ya go!


A

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:01 PM

'Forfend' is obviously a distant cousin to 'forbid'. I'm having some difficulty with my fors' kin.
I'll get me coat.....

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:19 PM

Forfend is the last stage in the act of sex: It comes after fore-court and fore-play (fors'kin can be also involved here, Dobro). Sometimes it is also preceded by forced entry, but this is generally frowned upon.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM

Whereas forbid is what you do before sex - if the bid is accepted, you may proceed.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: rumanci
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:32 PM

This version seems stable enough at its end

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM

I am now suitably chastized, Amos, and shall slink off to the shadows... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:55 AM

4

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:56 AM

3

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:56 AM

2

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:57 AM

1

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:12 AM

100?