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BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
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Subject: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:56 PM I've been noticing something odd for a few years now, and that is that intellectually-minded people on this forum are using the phrase "heaven forfend". Everybody was saying "heaven forbid" for the last few centuries of our English-speaking culture...certainly for most of my life...but just lately I see people saying "heaven forfend" instead. What the heck is that about? Do you think it sounds cooler or something to say "heaven forfend"? "Heaven forbid" is the normal expression. At first I thought "forfend" wasn't even a real word, so I did an online dictionary search. It turns out that forfend is a real word...an archaic one from the 14th century! Here is the online dictionary info: forfend One entry found. Main Entry: for·fend Pronunciation: \fȯr-ˈfend\ Function: transitive verb Date: 14th century 1 archaic : forbid b: to ward off : prevent 2: protect , preserve Okay, so it is a real word...but man does it ever sound pretentious! Sheesh. Why don't you just say "heaven forbid", like people have been doing for the last few hundred years? And who started this "heaven forfend" craze, anyway? Do you have to hold one pinkie up when you say it? Was it Woody Allen who repopularized the phrase? It sounds like something he might have come up with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:07 PM It's one of those Brit things LH! - you know we're all a little archaic over here :) Em - drinking tea and eating cucumber sandwiches (crusts cut off - of course) whilst holding up her little finger :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:11 PM Forfend as meaning 'forbid' goes back to at least 1823 according to my Oxford Universal Dictionary; the general modern meaning is "to avert" or "ward off". It's nice to use old meanings once in awhile. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:18 PM Ah. Perhaps it is the British who are responsible, Emma. Now that you mention it, I can definitely hear someone like Penelope Rutledge breathlessly saying "Heaven forfend!" It sounds so...patrician. I think the real reason people like using it is the alliteration...the two "f"'s in the word "forfend". It puts a little more of a flourish in their emphasis of just how much they don't want whatever it is that they are referring to. On the other hand, the word "forbid" sounds stronger to my ears than "forfend". Not quite as petulant, but definitely stronger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: GUEST,Peace Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:21 PM "When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?" According to Mudcat time, at 7:56 PM. I gotta ask: what's a forf? |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:31 PM "I gotta ask: what's a forf?" The sound a dog makes after trying to eat a Sugar Daddy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:40 PM a forf is something you use with a knike, for meals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Peace Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:41 PM OK. So, that's the forf end, right? Damn, I love this place. Learn something new every time I read threads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:44 PM Dang. I wish my dog could read. Think how much he could learn here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:47 PM He could learn all he is to know in just a forf night. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Ebbie Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:51 PM I don't know that I use 'forfend'. However, to me, it is stronger than 'forbid'. Forfend - to fend off- has more power than to merely forbid something. Nicht wahr? |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:02 PM You think so? Picture this: Border guard saying "That is forbidden!" Same border guard saying "That is forfenden!" Forbidden definitely sounds stronger to me. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:04 PM THey are two different words altogether, and "forfend" has been around since the 15th century. It means to ward off, rather than to mandate against. Heaven forfending bad luck is providential, while Heaven forbidding something is more intercessory, like the patriarchal and interfering God icon of some sects is wont to do. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:07 PM Right. Therefore, "heaven forbid" is the way to go if you want definite results! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:15 PM Well, I don't know -- does calling more sternly to imaginary playmates actually make them appear any more reliably? "Batman forbid!!!!!" A |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:22 PM Desdemona Who's there? Othello? Othello Ay. Desdemona. Desdemona Will you come to bed, my lord? Othello Have you pray'd to-night, Desdemona? Desdemona Ay, my lord. Othello If you bethink yourself of any crime Unreconciled as yet to heaven and grace, Solicit for it straight. Desdemona Alas, my lord, what do you mean by that? Othello Well, do it, and be brief; I will walk by: I would not kill thy unprepared spirit; No; heaven forfend! I would not kill thy soul. If it's good enough for Shakespeare! :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Peace Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:23 PM Shakespeare? Sheesh. A hack writer. His most famous play--'Hamlet'--is fulla quotes. Geeze . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:27 PM Little Hawk- that is, If God is on your side. I have used forfend occasionally, picked it up here at Mudcat, forget from whom. Words like that are contagious! |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:36 PM Yep, that Shakespeare guy's stuff sounds like one cliche after another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: JennieG Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:39 PM Does anyone remember seeing "Rumpole of the Bailey"? 'Heaven forfend' was one of his favourite terms, and I wonder if it transmogrified from the TV to everyday vocabulary. Cheers JennieG who loves having fun with words |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:40 PM 'The old joke goes something like this: A guys walks out of the theater after seeing Hamlet for the first time. "I don't know why everybody thinks Hamlet is such a well-written play," he says. "It is full of clichés." ' Well, here is a whole list of clichés, along with where they originated' A collection of 150 everyday expressions |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:48 PM It didn't come from the writing of John Mortimer and his wonderful character Horace Rumpole (not forgetting She Who Must Be Obeyed) but from everyday usage over here Jennie - however it's often said with an air of resignation :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Barry Finn Date: 13 Sep 08 - 11:46 PM I'd rather use my "forend" than my "backside". Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Peace Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:03 AM I see you got the eff outta there, Barry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Gurney Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:05 AM Pretentious, Moi? Heaven forfend, Liz! |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: katlaughing Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:19 AM Looks as though the first instance of it on Mudcat was early on in 1999 by Vixen. You, yourself, LH, used it in ought two! **bg** Love word play, too! |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:36 AM Geez, Kat, I'd forgotten all about that deathless passage! How good to read it again. The "forfend" that I use in it was a deliberately concocted word with an entirely different purpose than when saying "heaven forfend". I meant it to mean "subsist" in that context. Matter of fact, I thought at the time that it was a completely made-up word that I had invented on the spot. I quote that glorious passage again: "Avaunt, wretches, knaves, and cutpurses!!! Ye quailing, gibbering, chuckleheaded scoundrels, ye should be cast into the pit of Hades, there to forfend on carrion and the leavings of Hell's demon urchins! Ye darkling imps, sons of perdition and ravagers of the innocent heath, may ye perish and succumb to the wrath of the valorous and true. May the wolves gnaw upon your codpieces! May pernicious vermin consume thy raiment from off thy poxy frames, exposing thee to the inclemency of the pitiless elements on some barren and nameless shore of disaster! Thou villainous, onion-eyed, barrel-bellied swine! Begone! And take thy vile humours with thee when thither thou goest!" God, I love that. Such a useful diatribe. One can just pull it out of the hat for use on so many occasions... I was really in a different mood back in '02. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Peace Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:48 AM Uh, LH, do you have anymore of that left? |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer still in the shop) Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:55 AM Forf is after fird and before fiff. Perfectly good word, actually. The richness of the English language allows shades of meanings that many languages with smaller vocabularies do not (English, around 600,000 words, Romance languages around 150,000 each), without sometimes having to get awfully vebose. Heaven forfend that one should be forbidden the use of subtle distinctions. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Backwoodsman Date: 14 Sep 08 - 01:17 AM "It's one of those Brit things LH! - you know we're all a little archaic over here :)" I'm a Brit, have been for 61 years. Never heard of the word 'forfend' until I saw this thread. It's definitely NOT a Brit thing, Emma, at least not in common usage here in the Backwoods! Sounds more like the kind of pretentious bollox that some overpaid Chelsea-dwelling barrister might come out with in order to discombooberate his pals whilst supping his champagne in a trendy wine-bar. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: meself Date: 14 Sep 08 - 01:35 AM Um, people - it's SUPPOSED to sound pretentious. It's what we in the trade call 'tongue-in-cheek' usage, or 'inflated language as humorous device', in the same vein as, "Surely you jest", "I kid(guff/shit) you not" , "Who goes there?", "Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put", "discombooberate" [sic], etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Backwoodsman Date: 14 Sep 08 - 01:55 AM Um, meself - "discombooberate" was SUPPOSED to sound pretentious. It's not just you in the trade that have a sense of the humorously ridiculous. Or should 'that' be 'who'? Or 'whom'? :-) :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: meself Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:13 AM ""discombooberate" was SUPPOSED to sound pretentious." Um, yes I know - that's why I included 'discombooberate' in the list of examples of 'tongue-in-cheek ... ' etc. (grumble, grumble) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:42 AM LH: Before you get too carried away with your own eloquence, may I point out that you used the word entirely incorrectly? Forfend does not mean 'to survive on'. Or anything even close thereunto. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: JohnInKansas Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:57 AM In usage that I've heard/seen, there is a significant difference in the two words. To forbid means merely to say "don't do it." To forfend means to prevent it from being done. To use LH's previous "situation:" Border guard saying "That is forbidden!" Same border guard John |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 14 Sep 08 - 03:56 AM where would I be without Mudcat - a new (old) word! sandra (who doesn't recall reading it before this thread) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:55 AM Forfend fornication! Forbid foolish fuckery! Just tryin' to help out Hawk with the alliteration thing........... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: dick greenhaus Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:32 AM I've used the phrase "Heaven forfend!" since the middle 1940's. Got it from Shakespeare. Another somewhat archaic construction I've been fond of is "idiotry"--somehow it seems more emphatic than idiocy. BTW, Discombooberate" seems to be a corruption of the earlier "discombobulate". Anyone familiar with the word's background? |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM I think "discombooberate" is the female version and "discombobulate" is male. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Jim Dixon Date: 14 Sep 08 - 01:08 PM "Pericles, Prince of Tyre" (in part) by William Shakespeare, 1619:
I thank thee for it; and heaven forbid That kings should let their ears hear their faults hid!
O'erthrow me, as the Fidler did;….
And when thou fail'st (as God forbid the Hour) Must Edward fall, which peril Heaven forfend.
That thou my prentise were: Thou wouldst spend more good than I should winne By fortye shilling a yere.
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Backwoodsman Date: 14 Sep 08 - 01:28 PM "Discombobulate" seems to be a Southern-Puffter-Wine-Bar-Hanger corruption of the old Lincolnshire (specifically, Gainsborough on the Lincolnshire/North Notts border) dialect word 'Discombooberate', meaning "to baffle one's audience by speaking utter bollocks in a manner intended to convey the said bollocks as an absolute, undeniable truth". |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:34 PM Backwoodsman got if perfectly when he said of "heaven forfend" that it "Sounds more like the kind of pretentious bollox that some overpaid Chelsea-dwelling barrister might come out with in order to discombooberate his pals whilst supping his champagne in a trendy wine-bar." Heh! That's exactly how I see it. Now, if the poster is deliberately trying to sound pretentious as a form of humour, well then, that's okay. It's people who use the expression unconsciously, not aware of how phony and pretentious it sounds, those are the people who trouble me. I think they should drop it and say "heaven forbid" instead. "Heaven forbid" has an honest, straightforward, Republican sound to it. Clint Eastwood or John McCain would NEVER say "heaven forfend!", they would say "heaven forbid!" Only wimps, pansies, and gormless liberal wusses who are completely beyond redemption use expressions like "heaven forfend!" Amos - One cannot use a completely fictional word that one has made up on the spot "incorrectly". I was not aware that "forfend" was even a real word when I used it in the deathless quote you allude to. I thought I had made up a brand new word when I said "forfend". As such, I can use a brand new word or what I think is a brand new word any way I want to, nicht wahr? If I had thought it was a real word, THEN I would have been using it incorrectly. Do you get the distinction? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM "gormless liberal" Meaning that they lack axle grease? Or, if you are in Boonville, California, it means they have no food. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:48 PM Your defense is your confession, sir. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM Horace Rumpole only ever drank Château Thames Embankment - although possibly Champagne if someone else was paying :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM Amos... Your accusation is your nullification, sir. ;-) Therefore redactify your aberrant position and recant, I say. Either disconcagenate floridiously or depart this discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Megan L Date: 14 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM Little Hawk ya peedie scunner, yer naethin but a nyaff an will be pitit ower ma knees an skelp yer bahookie till yer lugs ring. Forfend his bin used in guid Scots talk since ever a kin mind oan an a wis telt a wis at the battle o bannockburn so haud yer wheesht ya glaikit gowk an behave yersel |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM Christ. Beats me how you people can even understand each other, Megan. It sounds like you've got a wee Scottish terrier stuffed in your mouth and are trying to speak at the same time! Depiculate and be done with it, woman! Don't blather. I can't stand tandependentious blathertwaddle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Megan L Date: 14 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM Learn to speak properly dear boy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM You sound a tad desperate there, Hawk-me-lad. P'raps you should stick to your grade level. A |
