National I.D. Card

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 03:38 AM

Er, Amos, If you were a non-citizen who was contemplating doing something a bit dodgy, would you carry that card with you (thus placing you at the scene of the crime), or just.....leave it at home, so the crome is committed, while the card supports your story that you were at home all day?

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 04:13 AM

I invite you to have a look at this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_1409000/1409761.stm

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 04:16 AM

And for future reference, this... just to get both sides in...

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Bert
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 05:16 AM

As Spaw says, we have a drivers Licence which is pretty much the same as a universal ID. The SOcial Security card is not really an ID it's just a little card that helps you remember your number. I've NEVER been asked to show it.

Earlier this year though I did have problems getting back into the US from a weekend trip to Canada.

The fact that I was driving a PA registered Car and had a PA drivers license didn't impress the customs official at all. What finally convinced her that I was OK was that I started getting indignant and told her that US citizens didn't need a passport to travel to and from Canada. I guess she thought "This guy is being a bit of an asshole - so he MUST be American"

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: mooman
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 07:20 AM

Probably all of this will be rendered redundant in a very short time as DNA profiling and genomic banks continue to catch on. Your genetic code is something you cannot lose, even when you're dead.

Now there's a scary "big brother" scenario...

mooman

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: mooman
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 07:50 AM

P.S. Hope I didn't cause offence to anyone as obviously, DNA profiling has some very positive and necessary uses as can be seen currently.

I'm more worried about the potential "misuse" of the technology of the "big brother" type.

mooman

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:08 AM

"Microtransponders could give off a trace pulse at airports, bus stations and travel junctions so that we could find out when an immigrant who was not a citizen had flown off somewhere else, rented a car, etc." Amos, I think we might require better tracking of those non-citizens, but I think any system is likely to be foiled short of good old fashioned legwork.

If we go that route I think we need to modify the Emma Lazarus poem on the Statue of Liberty to Give us your tired, your poor....and we'll stick a microtransponder up their ass."

Spaw

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: MudGuard
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:02 AM

Issuing something to non-citizens only obviously does not work.

What would stop any non-citizens from simply not producing that something when controlled and stating to the controlling police-officers: "I am a citizen"

This discussion somehow reminds me of the time before we got our machine-readable id cards here - lots of panic that big brother will watch us permanenty, and most people did not notice that the most important part of the old id cards (little booklets) was already machine-readable - its number. With that number it is very easy to look up all the other data ...

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:31 AM

Spaw:
We could just go with Lou Reed's take on this some years back:
"Give us your tired, your poor- piss on 'em!
That's what the Statue of Bigotry says."

Expect his "New York" album is among the recently banned....

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Harold W
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 07:50 PM

You are not required to carry a Social Security card, nor give your number with anything NOT associated with Social Security. Some states may ask for it as part of your driver's license, but you are NOT ablidge to give it.

"BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU" - George Orwell

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:51 AM

Mooman has "no special objections ... to the idea" of carrying a national ID.
Liland says he had to carry his draft card everywhere. Really? Everywhere?

DougR thinks his Social Security Card is the same thing as this national ID that's being proposed.
What Giok said. What Melani said.
ESPECIALLY, what said Penny S. said!
MacTattie has a good point, too.

Doug, I can legally refuse to give my social security number as identification for commercial transactions and most others, except when the government is involved (e.g., tax purposes). The store or VISA company may not do business with me, but I won't be arrested for such refusal!

Petr (an others), It is not the idea of a better card--with photo and thumbprint, e.g.,--that I object to. It is the idead of being required to have it with me at all times. There are plenty of times/places where to have your ID with you is, probably, to have it stolen (e.g., at the beach). The idea of having to be incumbered by a wallet at all times or of being randomly or arbitarily asked for proof of identification scares me much more than the thought of a terrorist bomb. (I live with the threat of death every time I have to drive on the freeway in heavy rain or snow with semi's and SUV's all around my little sedan.)
When we are all easily identified and tracked, we are ripe for a hostile takeover by a totalitarian government.

Petr (and others), It is not the idea of a better card (with thumbprint and photo, e.g.) that I object to. It is the idea of having to have it with me at all times. There are plenty of times/places where to have my ID with me is to invite its theft! (The beach comes to mind.)
Criminals will always be able to forge or steal IDs. And people with legitimate IDs can still commit acts of terrorism; if you're prepared to die in the process, why not?

This will not stop crime or terrorism.
It will make the theft of a piece of ID far more serious than the theft of a driver license or credit card today.

One other question:
If my ID has my thumb print, will identity thieves try to steal my thumb(s), too? Just a thought.

Genie

.

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: mooman
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 03:19 AM

The idea of having to be incumbered by a wallet at all times or of being randomly or arbitarily asked for proof of identification scares me much more than the thought of a terrorist bomb.

Well Genie...many of us who live in mainland Europe HAVE to have an ID and carry it and I don't think our civil liberties have suffered as a result...certainly mine haven't. And having grown up in a city at a time when passing any postbox, being in any public building, opening numerous packages as a government employee and having personally seen the aftermath of a terrorist bomb...the Hyde Park military band bombing...the thought of a terrorist bomb does at least disturb me more than the idea of a national ID.

Respectfully,

mooman

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 03:28 AM

From what I heard on the news, some of the hijackers were in the US on expired visas, and they had even traveled out of and back into the US a few times on their expired visas.

One of the hijackers was stopped while driving. When asked for his driver's licence, he said he had left it at home. He was given a ticket and ordered to appear in court. Prior to the court date, he obtained a legitimate, legal, US driver's licence (while living in the US on an expired visa), and when he failed to show up for the court hearing, a bench warrant was issued against him. I don't know how much time passed between the issuance of the bench warrant, and the hijacking.

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Paul Mitchell
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:39 PM

Here in England I heard that 1 in 10 people driving cars don't have a driving licence. The police can't keep up with that one, why should they be able to keep up with a National I.D. card. A real worry is that this would give the police one more tool to use in harrasing innocent people. If you have to produce an I.D. card on request or face some sanction it gives the police all kind of easy targets. What of the homeless people I work with who have enough trouble getting I.D. together when all their possesions are stolen? What of the travellers who find their belongings so regularly searched and their I.D. "removed" by some police officers? It's another stick the few dodgy coppers will use to make themselves felt.

Paul

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM

Here in Tennessee they won't give you a license unless you produce a Social Security number (at least for US citizens, it may be different for resident aliens). It was a big stink a few years ago when some people who didn't have SSNs for religious reasons had to go to COURT to get it resolved.

Personally I don't think anyone should HAVE to opt into the Social Security system, but that's another story for another thread.

A national ID is just another thing to worry with. I heard today, though, that the President is against it.

Now. Maybe we can get Batman on the case or something... Jethro Bodean always wanted to be a double-naught spy. He'd be perfect because no one would ever suspect him. ;-)

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Troll
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:51 PM

Heres the article as writen up by the Washington Times.

The White House has ruled out creating a national identity card system as a counterterrorism measure.
Deputy Press Secretary Scott McClellan said President Bush is not even considering the idea — though many in and out of government are, and the debate over the old issue has flared anew. There are no current legislative proposals to require such cards. And they are not requested in the package of national security measures the administration is asking Congress to pass.
Yet Rep. George W. Gekas said yesterday lawmakers are being flooded with calls from constituents who suggest the government require each person to carry standard, federally issued proof of identification. Mr. Gekas, a Pennsylvania Republican, chairs the a House subcommittee on immigration.
Prominent among those arguing for a national identity card is Larry Ellison, head of Oracle Corp., the Redwood Shores, Calif., software company. In a radio interview last week, Mr. Ellison called for creating a national identification system, and he offered to donate the tools for creating ID cards that contain a digitized thumbprint and photograph of each legal resident. The cards could be quickly read by scanners.
The public seems to favor the concept. At least it did in the days immediately after the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. Seventy percent favor issuing a national identity card as one measure "for curbing terrorism," 26 percent opposed the idea and 4 percent had no opinion, according to a nationwide telephone survey of 1,200 persons between Sept. 13 and 17. It was done by Pew Research Center for the People and the Press.
Edward Crane, founder and president of the libertarian CATO Institute, is clearly among the 26 percent. "A national identity card is not a good idea. It's contrary to the spirit of America," said Mr. Crane. "We live in a free society and our first right is a certain level of privacy. We shouldn't be forced to show our papers wherever we go." The director of the CATO Institute's criminal justice project, Tim Lynch, a lawyer, is more specific: "A national identity system is a threat to freedom because, once a system is in place, it's the equivalent to governmental prior restraint. Before an employer hires a person, he runs the card past agencies in Washington. Before a person buys a gun, or opens, or closes a bank account, there's a check with Washington — there's a ripple effect throughout society. Besides, government agencies will share the information about the cardholder. That's how our privacy is threatened."
Those favoring a national ID system accept the threat. They tend to see a national ID card as a way to uncover potential terrorists, crooks and illegal border crossers. They see it as a way of preventing credit-card and identity theft, which is a frequent practice among illegal aliens.
Dan Stein, executive director of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which pushes for tight immigration regulation, earlier told The Washington Times: "In a large and highly mobile society, we need a way to prove who we are. We lose the ability to determine who's who, who is a citizen, who deserves to be here and who deserves benefits," unless we have as uniform way to identify ourselves.
The proponents of a national ID system typically argue that people must prove their identity now, using a driver's license and Social Security number; yet both are forged rather easily. Besides, they say, advances in technology have already made the identity of practically every American available, and the driver's license is practically a national identity document.
Indeed, the Arlington-based American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators confirms that 24 states and the U.S. military have adopted its recommendations for creating a standard driver's license and more are interested. The suggested cards have computer-readable stripes and bar codes that contain a digitized photo and data about the card's owner. The codes on the cards could be read by the same kind of scanners found in grocery stores.
There is no question the technology for implementing a national identity system is there. But as Mr. Gekas' spokesman, Kent Wissinger, said, "There's just no push for it."

troll

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM

I find the story of the terrorist on an expired visa getting a driver's licence extremely hard to swallow. All States require applicants for a driving licence to have a Social Security No. and this guy couldn't have had one.

Similarly, the story about one of the terrorists applying for a bank loan to buty a crop-dusting plane. I couldn't even open a bank account in my own name until I had obtained a SS no. Seems to me there are a lot of urban legends being manufactured these days.

Murray

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 01:05 AM

You could be right Murray, but the information came from a news source that I generally consider to be credible. I guess it would be worth checking out, but I don't know how to do it.

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 01:08 AM

Also, I would be interested to know how they managed to re-enter the US several times on expired visas.

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 01:59 AM

Really sloppy immigration work I'd say, Carol.

troll

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:08 AM

Guest Genie: My point is and was, we carry identification at all times anyway. True, you may never be asked to produce your SS card, but try getting a bank loan or file your income tax without it. Perhaps, as you say, you can do commercial business without giving it, but when I have done bank business and they have asked for it, I always gave it. Maybe that was dumb, but I saw no reason not to give it to them.

And what about driver's license? I'm asked for that everytime I cash a check at some place where I'm unknown. I could refuse, of course, but if I need cash and I'm not near my bank, what the hey?

I just don't see it as that big a deal myself. Others do, okay by me.

DougR

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:05 AM

Yes, the multiple re-entry is another thing that makes me sceptical. I mean, have you ever gone through an immigration checkpoint at an airport? These guys go through your documentation with a fine tooth comb if you are a non-USA resident. Jeez, I was interrogated at Logan once for over two hours, but that's another story.

I cannot believe the expired visa/multiple re-entry story either.

Murray

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:25 AM

Murray, we just had some great fun here in TN when the legislature decided that all immigrants could go and get them a drivers license and all they had to have was a piece of mail to prove their residence. It resulted in multiple-hour waits at DMV stations, and out-of-state immigrants coming into Tennessee getting drivers licenses.

Then they decided, maybe this wasn't such a good idea, and they upped the ante a little bit, although I'm not sure immigrants have to have a SSN to get their license. I have to show mine, they don't. I'm not sure that's fair.

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 12:24 PM

Entry in the USA on an expired visa? Well I had no trouble a few years ago.

I was coming into the US from Canada on a UK passport, I'd had an (old) entry permit stamp which, I was told at the time would be valid for the life of the passeport, on trying to get into Michigan, I was told it was invalid after all this time. Entry to the USA took about 15-20 mins and cost me less than US$ 10 (oh, and a vehicle search), but, apart from a little inconvenience, I made it into America with very little trouble. I suppose it depends what colour your passeport is, what condition international relations/security are and how busy the staff are (I certainly wouldn't like to try getting in on out of date paperwork these days).

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM

I don't think that is quite trhe same thing, Walrus. You presumably had an up to date and current visa (or visa waiver) to visit Canada, so there would be no probblem.

Your situation was exactly what I faced when I went to Nova Scotia (except the other way round.) I too had to undergo a vehicle search.

But as I understand it, this guy was alleged to have made multiple re-entry through airports. Pull the other one.

Murray

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: jaze
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:15 AM

Just another thought. Our ID could be our SSN#. Students and other non-citizens would be given another # that would instantly ID them as non-citizens. Therefore, they would be easier to track and dismiss when their time was up. This IS the Gov't's responsibility. I get so tired of people in important gov't jobs not doing them at our expense. If we did our jobs that way, many of us would lose them.

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 03:08 PM

Makes sense to me, Jaze. What we don't need is ANOTHER card to carry around.

DougR

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 03:54 PM

Skeptic, You're right on!

Good old J. Edgar used to keep files on me because I was a member of the NAACP and keep files on anyone he thought was connected with "subversive" organizations.

When I was in Italy in 1971 I got into fierce verbal fights with my Italian boyfriend and his friends because we were refused lodging on a trip because I would not let the innkeeper have my passport.
I had been advised by our government never to let anyone have my passport (for obvious reasons), yet I found it common practice to have hotels and pensione ask for it as a sort of security deposit.
The first time I let anyone have it for such purposes, I learned my lesson. The proprietor violated the terms we had agreed on for lodging and was going to overcharge me and the other two tourists he had (without permission) installed in the same room with me. When I refused to pay the single-room charge, he was going to keep my passport. It was only when we threatened to call in the police that he gave it back to me.
When I refused a later innkeeper, my Italian friends could not empathize with my reluctance to surrender my passport.
I wonder if this would become a common attitude here in the US if we had National ID cards.
Even now, if you refuse to give business contacts your social security number, they will often refuse to do business with you. Would that not be likely to happen with a National ID card? However, someone's stealing my driver license or SSI is not, I think, quite as disastrous as would be the theft of a card with my photo, thumbprint, eye color, and all other pertinent info all in one!

Doug R, I can think of several things women would never be able to do with ease any more if we were required to have our ID on us "at all times:"

• Go swimming in a lake, river, or ocean (if we travelled there without a car or did not think the trunk of the car was a safe place for valuables)
•go dancing wearing the kinds of clothes women often do--no place in the dress to contain a wallet, for example
•go white water rafting or do anything like that where it would be easy to lose a wallet

I almost never carry my social security card on me, and I don't need my driver license unless I am driving. I don't need any kind of card when I am not doing any non-cash transactions.
I don't carry any cards when I go jogging, go to the gym to work out, go folk dancing, go to jam sessions, etc. if I take public transportation or bike or walk.

It is primarily the idea of being required by LAW
to carry it with me at all times, and the idea that I can be arbitrarily asked to produce it (when I am not a criminal suspect)
that I object to.

The fact that there are a number of situations where I choose NOT to carry it--where I think it would be unwise to carry it-- shows that it would be an inconvenience to have to have it on me.

Genie

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: toadfrog
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 04:14 PM

Why, exactly, is the idea of an ID a threat to constitutional rights? Theoretically, you don't have to give out your SSA number, IF (1) You don't want to have a credit card; (2) don't want to be compensated for your work, and (3) never apply for a bank loan. That's kind of unreal, isn't it?

Drivers' licenses are extremely easy to forge. If you want to do bad stuff in California, just make up an "Arkansas driver's license." It wouldn't even have to look much like the licenses they give out in Arkansas; it would only have to look official.

On the other hand, a system based on national ID'S would not make much sense unless money was appropriated to enforce it. When I was in Germany in the sixties, one had to show an ID even to get lodging for the night, and the Gastwirt had to report your whereabouts to the police. So, some clever individual decided to have a Fahndungswoche, where local police were asked to actually check the reported ID's and compare the names with a list of known criminal fugitives. Someone leaked the information in advance, and numerous persons disappeared into the Black Forest. Nobody much got arrested. Ha Ha.

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 07:10 PM

Genie, I do understand your objection to a National I.D. Card. I, too, hope that it doesn't come to that. If it is determined that the best way our law enforcement agencies can track foreign visitors, or those whose Visas have expired, it may come to that. We are so use to so many freedoms and some of which might have to be compromised if we are to make our country safe. The I.D. card may be one of them.

DougR

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Skeptic
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 07:43 PM

Details of how ID cards (or some of the other measures under consideration) will stop, or even limit, potential terrorist attacks have been lacking. Before doing anything just to look like we are doing something, we need to carefully look at benefits and consequences.

For those who don't think it can happen, look at Philadelphia under Frank Rizzo in which government, police and the Courts joined in a "gentlemen's agreement" to cover up a long list of abuses, all in the name of public safety.

I am cynical enough to think we won't but by going on record I'll at least get to say "Told you so". Always assuming forums like Mudcat aren't labeled as hotbeds of subversions and censored. For national security, of course.

Genie,

The FBI didn't even bother to much with whether someone was doing something illegal or not. They used the information on anyone who disagreed with their view of America. I had friends who finally figured out why they had trouble getting jobs and promotions. The common denominator was involvement in the anti-war movement. Using the information was an unofficial policy apparently condoned by others in government.

DougR,

We are so use to so many freedoms and some of which might have to be compromised if we are to make our country safe

That may be true. Maybe it would be a little less ominous if restrictions on civil liberties (as opposed to some inconveniences which have nothing to do with civil rights) were the last option looked at, rather than the first.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 12:08 AM

This is bushwa. It is easy t say "Why not" because we all carry various othe rkinds voluntarily. That's a choice we make, and we choose to be the kind of person who carries IDs,credit cards, and so on.

But if we chose not to be that kind of person, the law should have no place from which to require us to. This is an erosion of personal choice and liberty.

And the "necessity" of state security is not a counter-argument of merit. Necessity has been used to justify every encroachment on civil freedoms since before the Revolution.

There is no necessity for people to be forced into ways of living they do not wish to adapt.

A

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 12:26 AM

What "Skeptic" said.
What Amos said, too.

You know, I probably will go and renew my passport soon, because right now I have only one ID that airlines will accept when I fly. I am terribly afraid that someday I will miss a flight because I have misplaced my driver license. If I had two pieces of picture ID, I would have a back up.

If everything rides on that one card, God help you if you lose it or it is stolen!

Recently, I missed an important engagement in Seattle, because I got about an hour away from Portland and realized that I had forgotten my fanny pack (containing my driver license), and I was going to be in Seattle for a week. I had to make a quick decision, and I almost went on to Seattle without the fanny pack, because the only thing I really needed in it was my driver license.
I was not sure what would happen to me if I were in an accident or stopped by the police without it. Would I be guilty of driving without a license? Would my insurance be void?

Anyway, if you consider the inconvenience ( and expense) that this faux pas cost me, imagine if you had to have a National ID Card on you even when riding a bus, walking, riding a bicycle, or carpooling!

I may even have been wrong about the driver license. I just did not want to take the chance. Maybe I could have gone on without it and suffered no sever penalty.

Genie

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: lady penelope
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 07:24 AM

I haven't a clue how these things work in America, but I think the whole ID thing would be almst impossible to enforce in Britain.

Example : In the UK we are currently changing the style of our driving licenses to ones that have a picture of the owner on it. To obtain a driving license you need one form of ID; either a passport or a birth certificate.
I do not have a passport because on the only two occasions I left the country, it was on my parents passports, as I was minor.
This leaves me my birth certificate, which is a peice of paper that states where and when I was born, who my mother and father are ( possibly what their professions are ) and the name of the registra.
Should I lose my birth certificate, all I need to do is write to Somerset House, tell them my details and they will issue me a knew one. I don't have to prove that it's my birth certificate that I'm asking for.
So, once I have 'my' birth certificate, I can apply for my driving license. Who ever I am.

I personnally think an ID card would be more of a personal conveniance than any kind of security aid.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 07:50 AM

I was surprised that in the US, as a foreigner I could us and International Driving License as a form of ID. I admit, it did have my photo and UK licence details on it, but, as has been stated by Lady P, UK Driving Licences do not, at present, have photographs on, furthermore, IDLs are issued "over the counter" on production of a letter and photo, by groups like the AA (Automobile Association) with no checks made, so, I could, effectively, obtain an IDL in someone else's name, by using their driving licence, enter the USA on my own passport then break any "trace chain" by using the IDL (or any number of different IDLs obtained) as ID .

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Skeptic
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 08:45 AM

The National ID card idea isn't being proposed as a convenience but as a tool to fight terrorism. The only way it can be an effective tool is if it's use becomes mandated in some way for a lot of day-to-day activities: to track movement, where someone lives and so on.

Else what purpose would it serve? In the US I don't think any of the companies that would stand to make a lot of money from such an idea gave particularly large amounts of money to our politicians so a political pay-off seems and unlikely motive. It might be done as a feel-good-at-least-we're-doing-something sort of thing. In that case I think the temptation to use it for purposes ostensibly noble and actually ignoble would be irresistable.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM

John, I can be persuaded, but until now nobody has come forward with a concrete example of how a national ID card would be harmful -- only vague statements about "big brother," etc. I am just a bit suspicious about the motives of persons who want to be completely invisible. This seems to me just a bit like insisting on our "right" to own assault rifles.

I agree that one should think very carefully before introducing such a thing. Why shouldn't the government know where people live? We want the government to take censuses, for just that purpose. And prevent crime. I'm not real sure I think we should have a national ID card, but before I decide we shouldn't, I would want to hear better reasons than I have so far.

All the Continental European countries have national ID's, and it seems the British have a national driver's license. Are you aware of abuses in those countries, and if so, what are they?

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 06:48 PM

John, I'll say this for you, when you picked a Mudcat name, you picked a good one. :>)

I'm still with toad on this one.

DougR

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: MudGuard
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 01:25 AM

I am a German living in Germany, and I do not know about any abuses of the national ID card here!

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Mikey Joe
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 08:14 AM

Hi Walrus

I am an Irish citizen living in Scotland with a UK licence and it does have a photo on it as well as my nationality.

Mj

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 08:27 AM

Mj,

How long have you had that particular licence? The new ones have photos, but they are(IIRC) fairly recent (last 2-3 years?). I expect that my next duplicate licence will require a photo (my old - no photo - licence is falling apart).

Best wishes

Walrus

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 04:11 AM

Skeptic, I like the way you think!

Toad, once more, my issue is with the idea of being legally REQUIRED to carry it AT ALL TIMES. Why should a citizen have to have a pocket or wallet at all times? This is a pretty severe restriction, because it can often mean foregoing perfectly normal activities (walking in the woods, swimming, rafting, dancing) or having to carry burdensome paraphernalia and/or take the risk of theft.
It is a really sad state of affairs when one can't go out in public without carrying STUFF or when one dare not leave one's valuable papers at home for safekeeping for fear of being stopped by the gestapo --er, police.

Aside from the idea of having to carry it with me all the time, I don't find the idea of a national ID terribly heinous PROVIDED that there is some way to prevent businesses from abusing them (such as wanting to hold them for security).

Frankly, if I have to carry the damned thing all the time, I'd just as soon have an implanted chip which I could somehow disable and enable on demand.

Genie

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Troll
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 08:38 AM

Doug, I disagree with you and toadfrog. I believe that a National ID would open the door assaults on our rights as never before. Simply because other countries have Nat.ID cards and few problems, does not mean we won't. Our systems of Govt. are different as is our National "pysche" for want of a better word.
Meaning no disrespect , but I think we are a little less apt to tolerate the Govt interference that other countries seem to accept.
Since I know I'll be asked to provide an example, here it is. After some nutcase shot up a school, Parliament passed a law that placed such stringent restrictions on owning a handgun that virtually no one in Britain owns one anymore.Please DON'T get into how we should do this etc. I'm simply using it as an example. If that were tried in THIS country...well some groups have been trying to get similar legislation passed for years with little success.
Different country, different people, different problems.

troll

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Jeep man
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 06:43 PM

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!! This is still America. Let's keep it free and unfettered enforce the regulations already on the books. Jim Ford

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: DougR
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM

Troll, Jeep Man: I understand your concerns. However, I believe what took place on September 11th is going to change a lot of things that we took for granted before. If we want to be secure, we may have to get use to some things we would not have tolerated before.

I don't see the relation between a I.D. card and what took place in Britain, Troll. If the liberals had their way, they would take away our handguns whether we have an I.D. card or not. DougR

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Skeptic
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 10:33 PM

Why should Sept 11 change civil liberties issues? Clearly things will change and become less convenient. That does not mean it is an excuse to start whittling away at civil liberties.

A National ID card that stays in my pocket and is never used is a waste, at best. It is how it will be used that is troubling.

As a non-public personality, I have a certain "right" to my name and facts about me. As the privacy debate rages, there is a move to make such information an property right. As such, the government would be limited to access by the due process clause. Do we do away with that?

Will it be used to track where I travel? Will that have a "chilling effect" on my right of assembly? If so even the current court may follow precedent and declare it unconstitutional. Will information so collected be used, either directly to gather evidence for any kind of crime or indirectly to ?profile? people and allow the police to focus on them?. How would that sit with the rules of evidence? With due process. The SCUSA recently rules that the use of heat sensing devices from outside the house to detect indoor pot farms was illegal without a search warrant. To be useful, how will the database of information collected be protected from an illegal search? Will it. Can it? Should it?.

Those in favor of an ID card answer is that we may have to give up those rights. Under what legal theory do we have to or should we?. To fight terrorism? Then what about murder? Drug related crimes?. Where does the slippery slope stop?

If Sept 11 is a valid reason to erode some of our rights, then it is a valid reason to do away with others. Habeas corpus, trail by jury, the right to an attorney........ which leads me to suspect that maybe Sept 11 isn?t a valid excuse for any of it.

Just how far do we need to go to feel safe. As far as Abraham Lincoln went?

The constitution, lets remember is a limiting document. When it comes to the powers, rights and duties of the government what is not required is forbidden.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Tone d' F
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 02:29 AM

with reference to LtS and Cllr, would have to be handled sensitively

One thing our government has never been accused of is sensitivity or sense

I am actually in favour of a national id card say with a unique number that is only issued to you...? oh yes Nat Ins card.

Whatever they offer as an id system I'm sure that with my John Bull printing kit a potato and some ink I will be able to copy them

Toner d'F

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 08:45 AM

National ID... nope... no thanks. Do I think that it is a bad idea, no not really. I just do not see it as a legit way of safeguarding ourselves. Soon, counterfiet N.I.D. cards will surface, it is only a matter of time. Enforce the laws about immigration and such. It is amazing, we started really looking at the laws, started really stopping people and we have already started cutting down on the import of drugs, illegal immigration, and crimes in other areas. We do not need more rules, more laws, more agencies, we need to enforce the rules and laws we have, and properly fund and hold acountable those agencies that exist already. I do not see National ID as a direct assault on the civil liberties, I do think it is an expence that is not needed. Do I think that in time we will get some doink in office that will use it in some other way than it was intended, most definately.

No matter where you are, the answer will not ultimately come from the government. It will come from the citizens. If you want security, do not depend on the government alone to provide it. Do more to make yourself safe, others safe, and demand that laws be enforced and agencies be held accountable. That is where security starts.

Just a few rambling thoughts

Just a nobody

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: Troll
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 09:09 AM

Right on! nobody.

troll

Subject: RE: National I.D. Card
From: GUEST,DonMeixner ( at work)
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 12:34 PM

No.

Don