Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?

Subject: Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM

Listening to Melvyn Bragg's programme on Radio 4 this morning, I was surprised to hear that in Germany in the early part of the 19th century England (as they referred to Britain those days) had a reputation of being backward culturally, and specifically with respect to musical culture. They used to refer to it as the "Land ohne Musick" or the "Land without Music".

Now, we know that wasn't entirely true, or else we would have no songs to sing that hail from that period, or were transmitted during that period. But why should there be such an impression given abroad? Do people have any knowledge of this, and its causes?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?
From: davyr
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 06:07 AM

It was referring to classical music, of course, and not "Volk Musik". A good explanation of the background to the "Land Without Music" is given here:

http://www.openwriting.com/archives/2008/05/das_land_ohne_m_1.php

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 06:19 AM

Excellent article davyr - thanks!

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?
From: Gulliver
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:43 AM

I remember years ago reading in a book published in the UK around the start of the 20th century that unlike other countries England had no "national music". The author was a musician, as far as I recall, but I don't remember his name.

Don

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM

I guess they were ignoring folk music, Gulliver. By the same token, most of the countries in the world would be deemed to lack national music - my own home country for a start. But the article that davyr posted a link to shows clearly that Elgar and Vaughan Williams found plenty to tap into, when the time came.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:26 PM

Right upto the times of Grainger, Vaughan Williams and Elgar the UK was deemed to be musically backward simply because the middle/upper classes were quite happy to sit back and be entertained by Italians and Germans who seemed to arrive on our shores in droves, Verdi, Handel etc etc. The lower middle classes and workers were happy to be entertained by the Music Hall but the 'music' media didn't count this uncouth stuff. I think the middle class attitude was why should we bother being creative when the Italians and Germans are doing such a good job for us.

Meanwhile back in Germany the likes of Schiller, Goethe, Herder were imitating our traditional folk ballads.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 04:05 PM

I thought this thread was about the movie 'Land without music'.
I saw it as a kid and it made a big impression. Richard Tauber was in it and Jimmy Durante.
I don't remember the details but it was set in an imaginary country in Europe where music was banned (someone had cloth ears) and the hero was thrown in jail for singing.
I have a vivid menory of Jimmy in a cell singing/shouting Baaaa, baba ba ba baaaa, baba ba ba baaaa. And then someone else (was it the girl?) singing Laaaa, lala la la laaaaa, lala la la laaaaaa.
It dates from about 1938 and I just found it here
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:38 PM

We in that reriod produced no music that influenced people on the continent.
Much the same is true of Painting. I remember some years ago there was a series of books published in France called something like The Hundred Greatest Painters in the World. Only two were English. One was Turner. The other was Alfred Sisley who spent most of his working life in France.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:46 PM

Anyone interested in this subject would do well to take a look at a book called The English Musical Renaissance 1840 - 1940; Constructing a National Music; by Robert Stradling and Merrion Hughes. Manchester UP 2001. As the title implies, the book links the emergence of English classical music with the growth of nineteenth century English nationalism.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:26 PM

Here is part of an article from the Allgemeine Musicalische Zeitung, May 23rd, 1821, p 353. The spelling is a bit old-fashioned in spots:

Unter den musikalischen Ländern spielt England leider nur eine klägliche Figur; so klein ist die Zahl ihrer einheimischen Componisten, verglichen mit den Fremden aus Italien und Deutschland, dass es sich schwerlich eine eigenthümiche Musik zu besitzen rühmen kann. Es mag stolz seyn auf die metrischen Psalmodien von Thomas Sternhold und John Hopkins, oder auf die geistlichen Compositionen von Maister William Bird und Maister Giles Farnabie, oder das Carman's Whistle und John come Kiss me now, welche in der seltenen und merkwürdigen Queen Elizabeth's Virginal Book genannten Sammlung aufbewahrt sint, oder es mag sich der ausgearbeiteten Werke des ausgezeichneten Professors Maister John Bull, Doctor of Musicke, rühmen...und am Ende mag alle diese Musik doch nicht um ein Haarbreit besser seyn, als was Thomas Mace bezeichnet als whining, yelling, tolling, screeking, short-square even ayres.

Here is a rough translation. If you know German, please propose corrections or refinements:

Among musical lands England cuts a pathetic figure; so small is the number of her native composers, compared to the number of expatriates from Italy or Germany, that it can scarcely boast of having any music of its own. It can be proud of the metrical psalmody of Thomas Sternhold and John Hopkins, of of the sacred compositions of Master William Byrd and Master Giles Faranby, or of the Carman's Whistle and John come kiss me now, which are preserved in the rare and remarkable collection known as Queen Elizabeth's Virginal Book; or it can boast of the complex works of the distinguished Professor Master John Bull, Doctor of Music....But in the end, all this music might be no more than a hair's-breadth better than (as Thomas Mace has put it) "whining, yelling, tolling, screeking, short-square even airs."

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'Land without music' (UK 19C) - Why?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 05:08 PM

Well, England was a touch weak on world class clasical composers in 1820, that's true.Yet taking the period 50 years either side of that date, English fiddlers laboriously jotted down recently created fiddle tunes in their notebooks. Nobody has come up with a staisfactory estimate of just how many tunes, but way in excess of 20,000 I should guess.And then there are the songs.... So, "land without music"? Yes, and no.