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Hungerstrike commemerations...
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 Date: 21 Jan 01 - 02:22 PM But, McGrath, religious antagonism spilling over into violence such as found in the KKK, is an aberration. Those guys are much more concerned with what they perceive as "racial purity." (As if one could find any such thing in this country!) Yeah, they're down on Catholics and Jews, but their Jewish thing is race-based. Part of their dislike of Catholicism is because the KKK is a "secret" organization, with rites and great swearings never to divulge this or that -- a real no-no to the Catholic church. The KKK rejects any organization that rejects them. Keith: What would happen if the Prince of Wales announced an impending conversion to Catholcism? Would it really be "ho-hum" -- or would Parlaiment erupt in flames? The Irish here are not the only ones who come to this side of the pond who tell me how they can't get over how little a person's religion matters here -- the English do, too. (This is really getting into high thread creep...) Sarah |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jan 01 - 03:40 PM No Sarah, Parliament would not eruot in flames. There are some quirks in the constitution that would have to be sorted out, but no ecitement. They were widely and calmly debated in our media again just recently. Again honestly, a person's religeon doesn't matter here at all either. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jan 01 - 04:11 PM Would you be surprised to know, Sarah, that our Prime Minister's wife is Catholic, that he attends church with her and their children are being brought up as Catholics? |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 01 - 07:29 PM Well of course the KKK was an aberration. But back in the 20s it was a pretty popular aberration in some places, and not just the South.
What I'm meaning really to get at is that there's no justification for people elsewhere thinking that Northern Ireland is wildly different from where they are. The lines get drawn in different places with different excuses. "Race" is one way to do it, religion is another, and we are quite capable of thinking up new ones. In India it can be caste, in Ruanda it came down to height. Sometimes it's how people dress, or how they wear their hair.
There are always reasons that can set one lot of people against another, and they seem silly reasons to people, who aren't caught up in it, and it's easy to think that where we are is so much wiser and less bigoted. And we forget so quickly – "many generations".
If Prince Charles became a Catholic? The constitutional pundits would freak. It's not just a question of British Law, which currently outlaws a Catholic becoming King - there are all those other countries that theoretically share the same Head of State, so they are knotted into it as well. And his mum definitely wouldn't like it.
But I doubt very much indeed if most people in England would give a monkey's toss. There'd probably be some people saying, let's use this as a chance to drop the Monarchy, but that's be more to do with disliking the Monarchy than with having hang-ups about a Catholic Monarch. (After all, the leader of the Labour Party is virtually a Catholic, the leader of the Liberal Party is a Catholic, and so is the woman whom I'd put my money on to be the next leader of the Tory Party.)
But if it turned out that the Unionists in Northern Ireland refused to remain in the Union with a Catholic King, I think support for having a Republic in the rest of the UK would rapidly diminish. Having a Catholic King would be seen as a small price to pay for that, even among people who don't like Catholics. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 21 Jan 01 - 08:18 PM Not to mention the Tory ex cabinet minister Chris Patten, who led the review of the RUC. Blair not only attends mass, but to the horror of some catholic clerics he has even partaken of the holy bread (I don't think you get wine at catholic mass these days). As he is uninstructed in the faith, it's unlikely that the bread turns to flesh in his mouth. Keith is spot on about religion in Britain, Sarah. It provokes monumental indifference in most quarters (as does the monarchy BTW). In fact all over western Europe, religion is on the wane, and good riddance. America is massively more religious,and getting worse. Few things stick in my craw like that santimonious sign-off: "God bless you. And god bless America." And surely it's only a matter of months since Dubbya caused uproar in catholic circles by visiting the very university Kevin mentioned? |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 21 Jan 01 - 09:43 PM A careful reading of my post whould show I said a large minority and an undercurrent of anti catholic feeling. Let me give a few examples. It is not the overt wont hire catholic prejudice of the northern counties of Ireland, but rather a certain discomfort. The other day, my dearest oldest friend and I were driving to london, and discussing the pending marrige of his daughter. Knowing my wife is a Catholic, he still said in surprised anger, when I mentioned his daughter was joking about learning catichisms... "He's going to make a Catholic out of her!!!" He was really disturbed! I mentioned this to my mother, and she told me that my VERY progressive anglo Irish father once confided in her that his greatest fear was that his sons would marry Catholics. In fact, both his sons did, because my father was remarkable enough, not only to hide his prejudices from us, but actively encourage us to work for Catholic rights. He, in fact, in the end, was the one who convinced my wife to accept my proposal of marrage. But, it is that which I refer to as an undercurrect in the culture. The discomfort with catholism which some, even progressive english people feel from years of subtle messages and not so subtle messages from a state religion. I do belive that it is passing in generations younger than mine. I hope so. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: alison Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:46 AM It's a long process to breed fear and distrust out of people.... it has been bred into them for generations..... don't trust him he's a catholic / prostestant!!!! but the process is starting and I pray it keeps going ............. when I was home in August, there was supposedly peace, admittedly there weren't bombs going off, but the punishment beating and killings and people being forced out of their homes was still going on... the evening news looked no different than it ever was....... the difference was that it wasn't over religion so much, but over drugs....... gang warfare..... "you can't sell drugs on my patch"...... susan2 ..... I do think my life in Belfast was normal (I was 4 when the troubles started.. I don't remember peace) ...... wouldn't mind reading the book though (publisher etc please)....... and the sussing out of people's religion early on still goes on........ even over here in Australia when you meet an Irish person it happens....
"Where are you from?" the answer you give will usually tell them all they need to know................ but I don't think that people do it out of malice over here... its more so that they don't say anything to offend you........ the most usual way to find out your relgion was to ask you what school you went to, of to ask you to recite the "Lord's prayer", or spell something with an "h" in it.... the most devious time someone tried to suss me out was in a Belfast Hospital... they pretended to need an answer to a crossword puzzle..... "Alison, how do you spell Johannesburg?" (a catholic will pronounce 'h" as "haitch", a protestant will say "aitch", and a catholic will often say "a" as "ah", and a protestant as "ay"......) they didn't find out I spelt it with a combination of both...... it's easy to say give the 6 counties back to Ireland and get the Brits out..... but its not that easy in reality.... and in my opinion would lead to more bloodshed....... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:28 AM Introducing a bit of music into the thread - and a bit of an advert for a favourite singer/songwriter of mine - Have a listen to any of the albums (4 now I think) by Anthony John Clarke. Belfast born and bred, now living on the Wirral in England and doing wonderful stuff in the folk scene. Very powerful, pithy and sometimes emotive songs. Not specificaly about the troubles but some having obvious references to them. Anthonys songs are about life and his Belfast childhood and later years are an excelent source of inspiration. Without wishing to sound as if I am knocking traditional Irish music - I love most of it - this is Irish music for and about today. End of thread drift! If anyone wants to start an Anthony John thread feel free - or if anyone wants more info PM me. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:00 AM "The discomfort with catholism which some, even progressive english people feel" says InOBU
Actually in my experience, you're more likely to get it among "progressive people". You'll get sneery and dismissive stuff about Catholics in papers like The Guardian that you'd never get about any other religion. I think Chesterton once said that the real religion of England was anti-Catholicism.
Maybe if I wasn't a Catholic I'd see it as a problem. But I am, and I don't. It's a hangover from something that was much more serious a few generations ago. I've never come up against any discrimination arising from it myself. As InOBU says, people occasionally feel a little nervous - "a slight discomfort".
Of course this overlaps with Irishness, and there's definitely been a fair amount of suspicion and even hostility towards Irish people these last 30 years or so -but that's not surprising in the circumstances, and there's been less than you might have thought. Most of the time it's outbalanced by other attitudes. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:55 AM Kev: I think that for some, possibly as with Keith, it doesn't come up. As you say,it IS a subtle effect and one that I find comes out a surprising times. Day to day, it might not be a problem, however, like unconcious racism in the US, it can tip the ballence in one's political thinking, and that is when it becomes a problem. Well, back to the origional idea of the thread. Which, all this even music creep is not really off the mark, as Tony is planing to have commemorations include music, of course, and knowing Tony, he is interested in the commemorations sparking discussions of why his brother and the others gave their lives... If there are questions about the purpose of the commemorations, I will pass them on to Tony. I know one of the outcomes hoped for, is a permanant memorial to the memory of the ten young men who died on the 81 Hunger Strike. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:14 AM Phew - busy weekend on this thread! Fionn - yeah, I'm posting as a guest from work at the mo because it's free, but I'm occasionally on my machine at home from where I am a "proper" member. I'll ask around about sessions in that area - I'm sure there's plenty. Alison - I know what you mean. I've been in England for 4 months now and no one asks you what school you went to or where you grew up - until you meet another Northern Irish person! |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fiolar Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:55 AM Funny how Keith said that being a Catholic doesn't matter in England. Maybe not for many people but laws still on the statute books prevent Catholics from holding many of the top posts. Suppose a Catholic wanted to marry the heir to the throne - tough as no Catholic could become king or queen. As for the six counties, I don't suppose many English would know why they exist. In a recent survey carried out in England on children aged between 11 and 18 a good few thought that Adolph Hitler was the Prime Minister of England during the War (World War 2 that is). Adolph must be laughing his balls off. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Jan 01 - 10:49 AM "Adolph must be laughing his balls off. "???? Surely, in the words of the song he only had one anyway;-) I see your point though, Fiolar. Makes me wonder even more why the fighting continues - no-one realy knows what it is about anymore. DtG |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:13 PM And did they know how to spell Hitler's first name Fiolar? |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Fiolar Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:33 PM To Dave - as Hitler was know to be a believer in astrology perhaps he had foreseen the results of the survey all those years ago and lost it laughing. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:58 PM Fiolar, forget the Act of Settlement. It's not worth the paper it's written on, and would not stand being put to the test. A year or two before Di arrived on the scene the Daily Express had the front-page main headline: "Charles to marry Astrid - official" - Astrid being some European princess who happened to be Catholic. The story included reaction from constitutionalists, church leaders. politicians etc, all focusing on how the kids would be brought up - no concern at all that we could have a catholic queen (again). And that was more than 20 years ago - attitudes have progressed much farther since then. InOBU, hostility to catholicism has certainly softened, but you've got to remember that the catholic church has softened, or rather has been forced to soften, its own stance in many ways. (But nowhere near enough for my liking.) And the Irish state has gone far to correct the monumental mistake it made in allowing a church so much influence in its affairs. (Another endorsement of my theory that almost every way, Collins would have served Ireland better than Dev.) I know this present Pope has even sided with Israel against communism, but I don't think he'd have been as quick as Pacelli to seek a concordat with Hitler. Getting back to the thread, these hunger strikes are certainly a graphic endorsement of what our mums always told us: leave a clean plate, or you'll waste away. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 23 Jan 01 - 08:52 AM Fionn... overlooking the rather bad taste joke about the hunger strike... for my own experinces with the Catholic church, see the song I posted on the Rom song about the holocast thread currently running. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Fiolar Date: 23 Jan 01 - 01:12 PM To Fionn. I grew a very few miles from where Michael Collins was born and have always mantained that Ireland lost the only real statesman of the twentieth century when he was so tragically killed. I and hundreds of thousands like me most probably would never have had to go to Sean Bui. The hypocrisy of DeValera in condemning the Treaty staggers the imagination.If only he had accepted the fact, what a different situation there would have been. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Brendy Date: 24 Jan 01 - 06:26 AM Well, Fin, I hope you never have to put your life on the line for something you believe in. No... On second thoughts, I do. Asshole. B. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 24 Jan 01 - 06:49 AM Larry, thought you said it was OK to smile? *BG* If only he had accepted the fact, what a different situation there would have been - including a united Ireland, I'm sure of that, Fiolar. And a lot less books banned.
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 24 Jan 01 - 08:59 AM Remember when you ask that we understand your hummor, that a few of us on Mudcat knew young men who died on hunger strike, and these posts are also read by several people who lost immidiate family on the 1981 hunger strike. There are no situations where humor about the death of a family member is funny. As much as I abhore the memory of Pat Campbell, the organiser and chief goon of the Shankill Butchers, I would not joke about his death. One may wonder at this in light of what I said about the death of Beckworth. That was not joke. Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:17 AM Let me tell you what is wrong with jokes about the great fallen of any side. When you joke about it, it lessens the impact of those deaths on your psyche..........kind of makes it OK. This is not a new thing, the generals have been using the tactic for centuries to get young men to slaughter each other. As much as I agree with Brendy, I hope you never have to be faced with being killed or killing. Both are horrific and frightening experiences. May I relate to you a thing that occurred to me? I was at a party, the craic was fierce, I was down about 4 jars of the dark stuff.........and this rather loud and obnoxious fella (Shamrock Yank) was sitting across the table braggin' about the money he had raised, and how "we had gotten this many Brits, and we had shot down a Brit Chopper.....". I let this jerk go for a bit, but after a while old instincts took over and I could stand no more. Unfortunately, I grabbed him by his neck and pulled him over the table and asked him what the fuck he knew about killing any thing?? And I further inquired, in an ever so gentle way, if he had ever felt the little shudder that a body gives as the soul leaves it?? And I concluded by questioning whether, in his fucking state of supreme enlightenment, he had ever considered that these "Brits" had Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Sons and Daughters that loved them and now were reduced to fucking weeping at a tombstone for a loved who had to fight and die away from their home?????? THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH FUCKING JOKING ABOUT ALL THIS!!!!!!!!!! One should never doubt that I believe that the Republican cause is a just one, and that Ireland, divided, shall never be free. But it is abhorrent to think that one would still think it is OK to ***grin*** over the deaths of people engaged in a struggle for someting that they believe in so strongly that they would engage in cealachan (starving ones self to death at the door of ones enemy). This isn't about the rightness or wrongness of the respective political positions. It is about honoring the memory of brave soldiers. Here's to the warriors, may they fight for just causes, and worthy leaders and may they rest in peace. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:28 AM Mick ,I agree with you that life is something precious that should never be trivialised, but for that reason I won't toast the warriors of any side. People may be fighting for a cause they believe in, but it's not only those who believe in their struggle that are murdered, and I will never support any cause that believes killing is a path to getting what they want. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:49 AM Nice sentiment, and philosophically I don't disagree. Realistically, as long as their are gangsters on this planet that manage to use their gifts and their armies to force injustice on others, kill them, murder their children............then their will be the need for warriors. Fib, I respect your views, so don't misread this. It is a general statement and not a personal one....those that dream of a world without war are just dreamers. It is a good dream, but not a realistic one. As long as the Hitlers, the Amin's, and others of their ilk are about, their must be warriors. As long as there are people in Westminster endorsing prejudice and discrimination in the North of Ireland, as long as there are people in Washington endorsing genocide against Native Americans, blacks, and innocent Iragi civilians, as long as the Khmer Rouge and others exist.............there must be warriors to battle them on their own terms. I am opposed to the culture that has sprung up that makes that easy to do. I believe old men should have a difficult burden of proof before they send young ones to kill and die. The cause should be clear, the strategy clear, what victory is should be defined.............and our young ones should honor the memories of those they killed, as well as those that died. This is a difficult subject..........and I also honor those like you who fight against ever having to fight again. But when undeniable terror has been unleashed on you, you will be glad for my comrades, the warriors, existence. Respectfully, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:12 AM Mick, yes, I understand that, I just can't endorse it. Too many people I know and love have lost someone because of another's beliefs. I find it difficult to comprehend the fact that someone could make a conscious decision to take someone's life for an ideaology. I would go to great extremes to defend the people I love. Perhaps if their or my life was in danger, I'd be capable of killing, but to murder with premediataion is just horrifying. I don't believe in god, so I hold life as the most precious thing we have. To me, there's nothing else out there when it's gone, so we have to hold onto life and preserve it wherever possible, because it's all we've got - a wee moment of existence - so how could we ever take that away from someone? |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Youngster Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:39 AM It would help me deal with all this if someone who remembers could remind us of the military deeds of the the hunger strikers that led to them claiming to be POWs |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:43 AM Mick : Your experience reminds me of an evening where a fellow, just as you describe, was going on about what he would do to the supper grass, Harry Kirkpatric. Present was a volunteer who had undergone prolonged torture in a British prison. His eyes filled with tears and he said, "Until you've been tortured the way Harry was, you don't have the right to have an opinion on the subject. I hate what he did, and he has to be stopped from informing however it is done. But, until you have been tortured you don't have a right to sit here mouthing off about what you would do to him." Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:48 AM Thank God, if you will forgive me for using that oath, that there are people like you out there. Because otherwise the madness would take over, Fib. Don't ever stop. I have plenty of answers for you, but I don't want to convince you to be different. I know the mayhem, I know the madness, I know the sick feeling when looking at someone's lifeless body and wondering at what their dreams were. I also know, in the fullness of time and reflection, that there are battles that must be fought. And that it is the responsibility of the warrior to examine that for which they fight, to determine its justness.............and to do a terrible job because it must be done. And most of all, if we were lucky or maybe not so lucky, to live with our actions for the rest of the days on this earth. Some warriors use different weapons, like their own deaths from starvation. And some warriors.........like yourself..............fight for peace, and against violence. I mean you no offense, rather I am just offering up a blessing in a way that has great significance to me, when I say God Bless you and those like you. To tie back to this thread, I feel that, no matter which side of the ideological divide you are on, that Larry's premise of simply honoring those that chose to pay with the most precious thing they had for a cause that they believed in is a worthy thing. Nuff said from me. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Tinker Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:48 AM As a wife and especially as a mother, the sanctity of life is very real to me. Yet, because of that same sense of the Holy in each and every life, when confronted with evil there is a need to act. I've been extremely blessed to live in a time and a place where battles are won and lost in words and not violent actions. Mick I do understand the need for warriors, and I abhor their need while I honor the necessity when there is no other road left untried. Big Mick performed Back Home in Derry as a commemoration at Getaway. And it haunted me until I not only got the lyrics (and his set up) from him and learnt how to play it, but brought it in to my EFM (Education for Ministry) group for Theological Reflection. So you've got a group of middle aged, Episcopal (half former Catholics), struggling over the anguish, the longing and the strength of the prose and the haunt of the tune. No, the power is not in the politics,(perhaps that is the weakest link of all) it is in the strength of conviction of the individual and the burning need to do right for a cause beyond the self. The power is in the ability to keep grounded and not attack others while refusing all the while to deny the underlying principles of your belief. Unfortunately, charismatics come in dark spectrums as well as bright. Commemoration lets us each examin ourselves and our world so we can try to live each day in a way that can prevent the angst, and teach our children to recognize the patterns of history. Some tales are best repeated and not re-lived. Tinker |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 24 Jan 01 - 04:51 PM The hunger strike was not about politics. It was about arrest without warrent, trial without jury, torture in the jails, a system which - found there was war enough to have a "shoot to kill policy", but did not extend the rights of the Geneva convention to prisoners of war, while at the same time not extending the least internationaly respected rights of civil prisoners. Any one who denies that the British government treated this as a war should think of the image of an SAS soldier, standing, foot on the cheast of a wounded, unarmed, young woman, Mariad Ferrel, (excuse the spelling) in Gibralter, and emptying his full magazine into her face. I am often haunted by the thought of what those young men may have been in days to come, as so many of Irelands leadership started in the same way they did. Condiditons in the prison where such that the hunger strike was a necessity, and one undertook by couragous young men, who undertook the risk and reality of death in order to improve conditions for their comrads. I believe that is what commemoration must focus on. all the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 24 Jan 01 - 06:06 PM Try living in Britain a while, Larry/InOBU, and you'll find that juries are no protection from injustice. Or ask the Maguires. Anyway some of those who demanded political status admitted/boasted what they'd done, so the fair-trial bit wasn't the issue. The issue was whether what they had done was crime. My own view is that some deeds were indeed criminal - some not. (Look at this from the other side: would anyone in this thread care to make a case for Michael Stone, for instance - the guy who slaughtered mourners at a funeral? Was that political, like he says?) BTW,it was when we were discussing the earthquake in El Salvador that you were encouraging me to lighten up, Larry. Maybe we've just got different priorities. Certainly I usually have a chuckle when people blow themselves up with their own bombs, whoever they are. I'd go a bit farther than Fib - this world would have had a lot less hassle if no-one had invented martyrs. Look to the living, Big Mick. And whatever way I depart this mortal coil, feel free to dance on my grave. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 24 Jan 01 - 06:31 PM Hi Fionn, What I was saying to both you and my dear friend Kevin, was that I was in no way joking about the earthquake in El Salvador. Rather, we DID have a tiny earthquake in New York, gave us all a small rattle, and like the relief of the safe being droped next to you, THAT is funny - only because there was no injury or property damage, not even a cracked tea cup, and what made it more funny, the idea of a relief concert, is that it was the lead story on the news here THAT is funny. I also took offence at the idea the New York, on the issue of earthquakes was as apathetic as Americans often are about many other things. Not only are New Yorkers quick to collect food and relief whenever there is an earthquake, our Police and Fire departments are know world wide for their expertice in extracting injured from fallin buildings, and they go, as units world wide as part of New Yorks official responce to disaster. That is the difference between a joke, - no one hurt, and a joke about death. For some reason, there is a mania in the Anglo/American tradition to come up with a joke about the worst events. We even heard jokes with in hours of the explosion of the space shuttle, and to quote an old Radio personality, "t'aint funny McGee". Wiether any or all were guilty of crime or insurection is not the question, as is not the question of weither or not jurys work. In this nation we have as flawed jurries as anywhere else, HOWEVER, It is generally held in the modern world, that jurries remain the last bastion between the prople and government's political aims. In fact, a good description of what many of the hunger strikers "trials" were like, can be seen in the case of my friend Tony O'Hara, Patsy's brother. He was lifted for aledgedly stealing a car in a bank robbery to raise money for guns for the INLA. He didn't do it. For several weeks they beat him about the head, causing permanent brain injuries. They blindfolded him and took him up in a helicopter, gently coming down, so he did not know he was feet over the ground. They interogated him and when he would not inform, they tossed him from the helicopter. Finally, he agreed to sign a "confession" for which he was given five years in jail. He pointed out the the judge small letters over each word in the confession that spelled out, this was signed under duress. The single magistrate court - when pointed this out, said, "I see Mr. O'Hara is seeking to embarass this court." eh got five years. If this does not offend you, I think there is a problem here that often comes of societies hardend by struggles. Take my word for it, it does not promote good government. As to dancing on graves, we Rom have been known to do that, to celibrate life, not to make fun of the dead. What you do when you joke about the death of another, is to bury them standing. That is a whole nother thing. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Brendy Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:56 PM "I find it difficult to comprehend the fact that someone could make a conscious decision to take someone's life for an ideaology" Oh, sure, wasn't that the start of the rot in the first place. B. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:12 PM As to taking life for ideolgy, perhaps the writer meant the burning of Cork city, the machine gunning of football crowds by British soldiers, the murder of peaceful demonstrators on Bloody Sunday, the killing of Catholics indescriminantly by the Shankil Butchers, the shooting of Carol Ann Kelly, age 12, point blank in the head by british soldiers, the killing of all the other children killed by British soldiers in revenge killings, I am embarassed to say the names are becoming foggy was it Mary Livingstone, I used to be able to name nine or ten off the top of my head...... or those opposed to those actions, IDEOLOGY????? I don't know... Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Lox Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:56 PM According to Amnesty International, the IRA are currently running third in the murder league tables. The loyalists are a close second, but the leaders by a clear margin are the British Army. Noone ever talks about British Army atrocities in the North unless they live in the North to begin with. The media has a lot to answer for. lox (I'm just going to go and confirm that I've got this info right) |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Jan 01 - 04:15 AM Lets keep this on track guys - it is about the hunger strikers, not the murderers. Regardless of what they had done or allegedly done it took no small ammount of courage to starve themselves to death for their beliefs. As I said earlier - it harmed no-one but themselves and the regime they were in conflict with. It was an honourable sacrifice in the midst of dis-honourable deeds. If only all the 'warriors' had this courage we would have had no need for bombs and bullets or killings and reprisals. Remember them and what they were trying to achieve. Remember also it was a peaceful means to gain the same ends as the bombers and snipers. Had but a major polititian or political leader had the same conviction. Remember what Ghandi achieved by the same means? We are not talking 6 counties here but a sub-continent - and without violence. As to humour and death. I was at a Sean McCarthy memorial concert in Finuge, Listowel, a couple of years ago. An elderly chap told a joke about an IRA officer ticking off one of his snipers for shooting a Black and Tan. "What's wrong with that?" asked the soldier. "You missed the other one" replied the officer..... Switch it round to a British soldier shooting a Provo and everyone is up in arms! Sorry but I don't understand the selective sensitivies here. Cheers and peace to one and all Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 25 Jan 01 - 04:50 AM When I said I cannot comprehend people killing over ideaologies (and yes, I was deviating from the subject and talking about murder in general) I wasn't just picking on a particular faction or section. Furthermore I am not going to look at things from one point of view. There is more than one side to any story, and pointing fingers and saying "he started it" does notjustify extreme retaliation. You don't know me, or what the people I love have been through. And believe me, that covers a lot of stuff on both "sides". And none of them wanted to be part of it. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jan 01 - 08:25 AM Ideology" - manner of thinking characteristic of some economic or political, theory or system
Which really means, what you think is right and what you think is wrong, what you think is true and what you think is false, what you think should be done, and what you think should be prevented from being done.
Those are the reasons people fight each other, and that is always going to happen, because people are always going to disagree about things like that. But what can be done is to find ways of fighting that do not include killing other people.
In extreme circumstances, the deaths of the hunger strikers were examples of one of those ways. The original and still core meaning of the word martyr is "witness", someone who gives witness with their own life. THey were martyrs, and I hope there'll be no more like them in Ireland, and no reason for there to be.
(And InOBU, I wasn't suggesting you were joking in relation to the Salvador disaster, and you'd be the last person I'd ever think that of. But I saw an opening to remind people about that, because with all the headlines crowding each other, about the flotsam of the world like Bush and Blair and stuff like that, it's so easy to miss important things.) |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 25 Jan 01 - 08:47 AM CERTANLY Understood, and never any offence, Kev... Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Wolfgang Date: 25 Jan 01 - 08:57 AM Lox, I'd be very interested if you could confirm these numbers. The only numbers I know of are quite different (Sutton Index of Deaths in NI: Organisation responsible for deaths:
Republican paramilitary 2031 But I'm willing to learn. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick Date: 25 Jan 01 - 08:58 AM Dave and Fib, that was exactly my point. There shouldn't be selective sensibilities. We can argue as to whether these lads were heroic warriors or not, but one cannot deny their valor and purpose. Reading the stories of their death touches one in a profound way. I was only liberated from the misogynistic American upbringing when I came to see my former "enemy" for what they were. Noble warriors who were willing to fight and die for their principles. In recognizing their valor, I came to understand what the "Generals" must perpetuate on us in order to make us kill one another. As I have said, I don't reject war, sometimes it is an necessary evil. But the warriors must be very careful of who they follow and why. I am not asking those who disagree with the Nationalist cause to embrace it. I am asking that you look at these men and evaluate their committment and their final act. By not playing "the Patriot Game", and instead of focusing on the people behind the cause, communication and peace can be fostered. Misty greet the dawn, trees stand guard in the rising sun Peaceful shadows all around, ghostly shapes rise from the ground, Morning waits for me and you, hazy sunlight warms the dew, On these fields that are stained a crimson red, to hug the dying and the dead, There once were soldiers here, but that was many years ago by Brendan Nolan All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,The gnome - some buggers nicked my pc Date: 25 Jan 01 - 09:04 AM Good man yerself, Mick. Very good point. Very well made and I guess what I was trying to say. Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 25 Jan 01 - 10:49 AM Gnome! I send my heart felt condolences on the loss of your PC, and may their lawyer fall asleep at the defense table if they are caught (the worst curse a progressive lawyer can summon up!) Wolfgan, for those numbers to be meaningful in the instance of this conversation, one has to break them down into combatant and non-combatant deaths. Yes, all human life is of equal importance, but in the question on the floor, the difference makes the argument. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 25 Jan 01 - 10:50 AM Gnome! I send my heart felt condolences on the loss of your PC, and may their lawyer fall asleep at the defense table if they are caught (the worst curse a progressive lawyer can summon up!) Wolfgan, for those numbers to be meaningful in the instance of this conversation, one has to break them down into combatant and non-combatant deaths. Yes, all human life is of equal importance, but in the question on the floor, the difference makes the argument. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:12 AM It's OK, Larry - It was a work one and it has miraculously re-appeared when I wasn't looking.... Wonder how that happened??? Ah well - provided a modicum of light relief anyway. The Gnome is back on line! |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Wolfgang Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:06 PM Larry, you only can show one aspect in one table, not more. And I have referred to the aspect lox has introduced, namely who is responsible for deaths. On the website there you can do easily all kinds of crosstabulations to find out other interesting patterns. One of the interesting patterns, e.g. is that the Republican Paramilitary has killed a much higher percentage of combattants (British troops, UDA,...) whereas the Loyalist Paramilitary has mostly killed civilians. A selective observation, of course, but it fits well in some of my prejudices about the conflict. Some of my prejudices and observations can be found here. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,keith A of H Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:51 PM Larry,you would never lie but you are so selective of the truth that you will mislead such as Youngster who wants to get a balanced picture. In Gibralter the unarmed young woman was a member of an IRA active service unit sent to bomb a band concert.The bandsmen were soldiers but unarmed.Bandsmen only do ceremonial duties.Also there would have been many civilians present. Thank God they were stopped.IRA "soldiers" are usually armed and have never hesitated to gun down unarmed English bobbies to avoid arrest.How nervous would you feel if it was your job to arrest such a person? Still She should have been taken alive as most are, witness the number of IRA prisoners (now all released). In contrast the IRA have executed every single soldier and police officer they have ever taken ,often after such appalling torture far exceeding that which you described.Remember the informer who ,hands bound, threw himself through the glass of a third floor window seeking a quicker death. Which side would you rather be arrested by? The SAS were required to justify their action , and their explanation was not implausible. Their bomb had not been located and the IRA had been using remote control devices at the time. The fear was that they would set it off. If that danger was exagerated, shame on them indeed but it ill behoves the IRA to cry murder when they always use those tactics. Can anyone answer Youngster,s question? It is relevant as the hunger strike was only about whether they should be granted the privillages of a POW |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:52 PM Gnome! I send my heart felt condolences on the loss of your PC, and may their lawyer fall asleep at the defense table if they are caught (the worst curse a progressive lawyer can summon up!) Wolfgan, for those numbers to be meaningful in the instance of this conversation, one has to break them down into combatant and non-combatant deaths. Yes, all human life is of equal importance, but in the question on the floor, the difference makes the argument. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,keith A of H Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:55 PM Larry,you would never lie but you are so selective of the truth that you will mislead such as Youngster who wants to get a balanced picture. In Gibralter the unarmed young woman was a member of an IRA active service unit sent to bomb a band concert.The bandsmen were soldiers but unarmed.Bandsmen only do ceremonial duties.Also there would have been many civilians present. Thank God they were stopped.IRA "soldiers" are usually armed and have never hesitated to gun down unarmed English bobbies to avoid arrest.How nervous would you feel if it was your job to arrest such a person? Still She should have been taken alive as most are, witness the number of IRA prisoners (now all released). In contrast the IRA have executed every single soldier and police officer they have ever taken ,often after such appalling torture far exceeding that which you described.Remember the informer who ,hands bound, threw himself through the glass of a third floor window seeking a quicker death. Which side would you rather be arrested by? The SAS were required to justify their action , and their explanation was not implausible. Their bomb had not been located and the IRA had been using remote control devices at the time. The fear was that they would set it off. If that danger was exagerated, shame on them indeed but it ill behoves the IRA to cry murder when they always use those tactics. Can anyone answer Youngster,s question? It is relevant as the hunger strike was only about whether they should be granted the privillages of a POW |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Grab Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:59 PM That site's remarkable, Wolfgang! Larry, the figures you requested, as extracted from the cross-reference facility on that guy's site. I think these tell the story well enough on the civilian dead:-
Casualty \ Killer British Irish Loyalist Not Republican Totals \ security security paramilitary known paramilitary Grab. |
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