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Hungerstrike commemerations...
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Subject: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 17 Jan 01 - 06:53 PM I have been approached by a dear old friend and twin, Tony O'Hara. Tony (who looked so like me in our thrities, his sister got us confused!...) is the brother of Patsy O'Hara who gave his life during the 1981 hunger strike. There are commemorations being planed in Ireland, Manchester, Boston, New York, Phillidelphia, Washington, San Fransico and elsewhere. If you are interested in taking part in the planning get in touch with me by email, InOBU@aol.com and I will forward you to the list. Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 Date: 18 Jan 01 - 04:06 PM refresh |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 18 Jan 01 - 09:13 PM Thanks Sarah - Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 18 Jan 01 - 09:15 PM I should mention, (and wonder at the no responce) that the committees take notice of the fact that there are hunger strikes now on in Ireland and Turkey. Where are the voices that were quite strong for Irish rights last year??? - Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick Date: 18 Jan 01 - 09:35 PM Larry, I don't know what I can do to help you from Michigan, but whatever it is you can count on me for it. These martyrs must not be forgotten for the brave sacrifice they made. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sorcha Date: 18 Jan 01 - 10:01 PM That's just it, Lorcan. I don't know what I can do from Wyoming,USA. If e mails would help, I could do that, but I can't exactly go to Ireland and demonstrate outside the Prison. I have purchased the Joe Doughtery CD, and I don't exactly know what else I could do.........I will not send money to Ireland, because I have no clue where it would really end up.......and I don't want to buy guns and ammo for the IRA. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Lox Date: 18 Jan 01 - 10:18 PM Just remember, and don't let it happen again. This is a painful wound that won't heal for a long time. Careful that you try to heal it and don't just pick at the scab. lox |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Lox Date: 18 Jan 01 - 10:59 PM Doesn't mean you can't talk about it (sorry if I gave that impression) lox |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: paddymac Date: 19 Jan 01 - 01:01 AM Hallowed be their names, each and every one. Sorcha - You are free to have your opinions, but if you would study the history and current situation your would realize that the IRA is not the problem. It is an entirely predictable response to the underlying problem of an aparthied statelet. For all practical purposes, the IRA laid down their arms in April of 1998. However, the British government, the RUC, and Unionists operating under a variety of aliases, continue murdering innocent people, burning, fire-bombing, beatings and other forms of terrorism. It's the very same sort of ethnic cleansing that most of the world railed against in the Balkans, but seems not to raise so much as a whimper against in Northern Ireland. The marvel is that the guns of the IRA have stayed silent. How long they can remain silent, while the people they have tried to protect continue to be terrorized by the established order, is the frightening question. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 19 Jan 01 - 05:28 AM Dear Friends There are commemorations planned through out the US. I will post what cities have committees as the come up. Sorcha, this is not for money for the IRA. In fact, the families involved are both IRA and INLA members sisters, brothers, mothers and fathers, who wish that their children's sacrifice be remembered and not colored by propaganda, and be a lasting light focused on human rights abuses, which is why family members and committee members ask that you become informed about hunger strikes for human rights as they happen in ANY nation. I will post, in a moment, information about the Irish and Turkish hunger strikes, so that you may right to Bertie Ahern and the Turkish governments, and express your concern. In a nut shell the Irish strike is about compasionate parol for republican prisioners to visit critically ill family members, and the Turkish strike concerns the human rights of Kurds. All the best, Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Jan 01 - 06:08 AM Paddymac. The hunger strikers gave their lives for a cause they believed to be just and true in a way that did harm only to themselves and to the regimes that imprisoned them. Whatever the cause was is irrelevant. I believe InOBU wanted to commemorate their sacrifice in a peaceful and humanitarian manner which warrants the respect of all concerned. I will not apologise for the actions of the British Government or the RUC. I cannot. Nor would I expect you to apologise for the the Republican factions "operating under a variety of aliases, continue murdering innocent people, burning, fire-bombing, beatings and other forms of terrorism" What I will do is extend my hand in friendship, in the hope that you may forgive whatever harm I have done to you. If you believe that the British people do not endorse the repression of the Irish, as I believe that Irish are a peaceful peoples, then we can move forward. If we take a negative stand we may as well give up now. My Son, Stewart, now nearly 20, was born on the day that Bobby Sands died. (May 5). At that point I promised myself that I would never instill the hatred that has perpetuated this bloody and violent conflict in any of my children. To date, all my children (5 - aged 16 to 24) have no ethnic related predjudices. Let us hope that if enough of us, on both sides of the Irish Sea, do the same then the sins of the fathers will not be visited upon the sons. Those sons and daughters will eventualy build a peaceful, bright new future in a way that talk of past attrocities never can. They will be the ladders out of the pit that we keep digging with violence and hatred. I will not say I pray to God for the souls of the dead hunger strikers, as that may indicate I follow one of the religions which started this bloody mess in the first place. Instead I will light a candle to remind me that somewhere in the dark there is a glimmer of hope. All the best and may the courage of your convictions help bring about a peaceful solution. Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 19 Jan 01 - 06:50 AM I was born and have lived in Northern Ireland for the past 25 years. I totally abhor the violence that has occurred there and I have no time for anyone who perpetrates, supports, or justifies that violence in any shape or form. On any "side". For any reason. I think I understand that Larry has approached this subject from a humanitarian point of view, but as such a subject is open to such passionate, emotional and distressing arguments that I would ask everyone to realise that they're writing about something that has affected thousands of people and that their rhetoric may bring more hurt than good, intentional or not. Dave the Gnome has the right idea in raising his children without prejudice. I like to think I was brought up the same way. I am not contesting peoples' rights to their own opinions; I just want everyone to be aware that some issues are too close to the bone for others to bear. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Lady McMoo Date: 19 Jan 01 - 07:14 AM I entirely agree with you Fibula and, also being Irish, this is why I have refrained from commenting in the numerous threads in this forum on this sensitive issue. Peace to all mcmoo |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 19 Jan 01 - 07:42 AM Thanks for the continued conversation about these important humanitarian issues. The following two posts are about prisoners on hunger strike in Ireland and Turkey. The support for the conditions that face prisoners, wether prisoners of concience, common criminals, or participants in insurections must be uniform, in that human rights are not granted to the good, but shared by all. If we have groups that are not deserving of basic rights, then we will have people struggling to achieve those rights - with all the terrible pain that flows from that struggle. This was sent from the Irish Republican Prisoner's Welfare Association... and gives information about the presnet hunger strike on in Portlaoise. Larry ON HUNGER STRIKE!
Irish Republican Prisoners Welfare Association Supports Hunger Striker Danny McAlister And calls on Dublin Government to End Discrimination
Following representation from the family of Belfast POW Danny Mc Alister, incarcerated in Portlaoise Gaol, we have learned of his Hunger Strike protest started on January 01 2001.
This extreme action taken by Danny Mc Alister has been forced by the continuing discrimination policy implanted by the Dublin Government by refusing compassionate parole to Republican prisoners to visit sick and dying relatives.
Danny has applied repeatedly to and been refused consistently by the Minister of Justice to visit his elderly, ailing Mother and his seriously ill Brother who is suffering from Leukemia.
Despite repeated attempts by his legal representative to ascertain the criteria and reasons for the refusals, to date the Minister of Justice John O'Donaghue has ignored these requests as he has ignored the requests of other Republican prisoners in Portlaoise Gaol in similar circumstances.
Danny Mc Alister's actions are understandable bearing in mind the torturous treatment he was subjected to during the weeks leading up to the death of his father. At the time the government engaged in 'Cat and Mouse' tactics before ultimately refusing him to visit his dying father. He was allowed to attend his father's funeral only as a consequence of initiating action.
The Irish Republican Prisoners Welfare Association demand an end to the current discrimination policy against Republican POWs in Portlaoise Gaol and the immediate full implementation of Political status to all Republican prisoners held in Gaols throughout Ireland. We call on all human rights organisations and individuals to support the restoration of political status and exert pressure on the Dublin Government to cease this practice forthwith in order to avert another tragedy in an Irish Gaol.
Support the prisoners!
Demolish the Prisons!
Until all are, we are all imprisoned!
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 19 Jan 01 - 07:44 AM Here's an update from Human Rights Watch Turkey: Government Seeks to Quash Scrutiny of Prisons Transfer Prisons Activist Jailed (New York, January 9, 2001) Human Rights Watch today condemned the Turkish government's crackdown on those seeking to expose torture, beatings and other police abuses during the violent December raid of Turkish prisons. The December 19 military prisoner transfer operation took place in twenty Turkish prisons. In the transfer, thirty prisoners and two gendarmes were killed. Nimet Tanrikulu, former president of the Istanbul branch of the Human Rights Association of Turkey (HRA) was formally arrested Monday for participating in a non-violent demonstration against recent transfers of prisoners into isolation units at Turkey's new F-type high-security prisons. "The Turkish government is trying to hide grievous violations. These people deserve to be listened to, not gagged and locked up," said Jonathan Sugden, the Human Rights Watch researcher for Turkey. Sugden is currently in Ankara investigating allegations of beatings and torture during the December prison transfers.
Since the transfer, the Turkish Human Rights Association has been attempting to collect evidence from prisoners, lawyers and released prisoners about the December 19 transfers. A paper the HRA published on Saturday contains evidence and testimony of severe beatings in gendarmerie transports, and beating and ritual humiliation on arrival at the F-type prisons in Edirne, Kocaeli and Ankara. The HRA has also tracked the regime of extreme isolation imposed on the more than one thousand inmates held in solitary and three-person units. In consequence the human rights group has been targeted for intense official pressure.
The Human Rights Watch representative, Mr. Sugden, was present on Monday when plainclothes police officers entered the national headquarters of the HRA in Ankara to question Husnu Ondul, association president, about a press briefing he had given earlier in the day. Husnu Ondul later told Human Rights Watch, "Here I am, with five of my branches shut down in the past six weeks-all because of our work on the prisons, without a doubt. My people are detained or raided almost every day….We are living in some of the worst days in the history of the association." The Human Rights Association was founded in 1986.
Husnu Ondul also complained that the association was receiving constant threats by telephone. Ankara local branch president Lutfi Demirkapi told HRW about a threatening phone call he received on January 5, when an unknown caller asked, "Are you still alive then? They are getting your shroud ready?"
Such threats are taken seriously by the HRA, which has lost ten members in armed attacks over the past decade. In 1998 its president Akin Birdal was nearly fatally wounded in such an attack. The bullet-scarred door of his office stands in the Ankara branch as a reminder.
"The attack on Birdal was prompted by unfounded official allegations. We are concerned because I have seen and heard similar allegations against the HRA while carrying out my investigations here," said Sugden. "Under the U.N. Declaration on Human Rights Defenders, these people have not only a right, but a duty to document the truth about violations when they occur. It is the Turkish government's duty to protect and encourage human rights activists in their work, not to persecute them."
In the wake of the prison raids, five branches of the HRA have been closed-Izmir, Van, Gaziantep, Malatya, and Konya. On December 17, the Istanbul branch was raided and board members detained for several hours.
On January 6, Lutfi Demirkapi, president of the Ankara local branch of the HRA, was detained while attempting to make a press statement next to the human rights monument in the city center. He told Human Rights Watch: "I was grabbed by police officers and put in a police van with relatives of prisoners held at Ankara's Sincan F-type prison. The police kicked and beat the others. We were all taken to Ankara Police Headquarters and made to stand for five hours leaning against a wall. There were two women over fifty years of age and they were treated just the same."
Nimet Tanrikulu was detained together with Istanbul branch president Eren Keskin, a lawyer, and other branch members. After a night in police custody she was formally arrested, together with three members of the Freedom and Solidarity Party (ÖDP). She is now held at Bakirkoy Prison for Women and Children.
Those detained had been visiting the headquarters of the Democratic Left Party (DSP), the party of the Turkish Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit, where they had attempted to leave a black wreath as silent criticism of his role in the opening of new prisons.
For more information, please see:
Turkey: Isolation and Beatings in New Prisons Must Stop Now (HRW and Amnesty International Press Release, January 6, 2001) at http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/01/turkey0105.htm Turkey: Focus on Human Rights (HRW Focus Page) at http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/turkey/index.htm |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: alison Date: 19 Jan 01 - 08:49 AM thanks Fibula....... I lived through it in Belfast too....... you put my feelings across better than I could...... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Indigo Date: 19 Jan 01 - 09:14 AM Thanks Fibula. I agree. Indigo |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 19 Jan 01 - 09:20 AM Cheers guys. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: paddymac Date: 19 Jan 01 - 10:09 AM Dave - You have my respect and admiration, and I am honored to take your "virtual" hand in mine, in the same spirit in which it is extended. Fibula - I believe that every sentient being abhors violence, and for such people, the resort to violence comes only when it is forced upon them. The great need is to resolve the causative issues. That requires somebody to lower their arms and be willing to find another, more rational path. That one side has taken that first step is evident. That the other side has not responded in good faith is, sadly, also evident. If I may, a toast, please, to people of clear minds and good hearts everywhere. May they commit their minds and hearts to finding that better way, and work to resolve the underlying inequities which inevitably breed violence. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Jan 01 - 10:29 AM Thanks, Paddymac. It realy means more to me than you can imagine. If we can now get the 'powers that be' to see it the same way we can get this peace show on the road! My knowledge of traditional Irish salutations is limited to say the least but my one and only is very apt here May the road to hell grow mossy for the want of your feet... I think it says it all and, once again, all the best to everyone who is helping in the peace process. Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick Date: 19 Jan 01 - 12:08 PM I am very proud of this community. I have always wanted to prove that honorable people of good faith, from across all the ideological divides and perspectives, can discuss this in a way that leads to peace and understanding. Sometimes that means picking the scab so that the natural inclination to forget injustice doesn't take over. But the time comes and goes for that tactic, and when the communities, express a willingness and desire to move on to the next step......at that moment wise men and women recogize it and move to the next step. That time has come to the Mudcat. I hear uncommon wisdom in the words of Dave, Fibula Mattock, and Larry (InOBU). McMoo has always had my respect. I would like to mention also Penny and Sapper. I already know the heart of Alison, and hers is a uniquely Irish perspective. Let us resolve to move forward on this issue. It is not necessary, or even desirable, to forget the past. What is important is the motives in moving forward. It is too much to expect people that have passionately and generationally embraced a point of view to just put it aside. It is the melding of these points of view that will create the foundation of a lasting peace. But it is not to much to expect them to understand that the people of the North of Ireland from all perspectives have spoken. They want peace, they want they rule of law, and they expect the weapons to remain silent. Those that seek to subvert the peace process are doing so from a sense of desperation. This battle they will lose. Larry, I support the humanitarian approach that you have taken. Thanks for consistently being a voice of understanding on issues that, by their very nature, are confusing. I am glad you are here. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Grab Date: 19 Jan 01 - 01:01 PM Paddymac, I'd like to put in a word for the British government, if you don't mind. Both sides were given the opportunity to sort out their differences in a democratic manner, but refused to do so. The walk-out from the NI parliament by both sides bcos they both thought the British government was favouring the other side tends to demonstrate that - I've heard journalists say that when you get equal criticism from both sides of the argument, you've been fairly impartial! If the Unionists and Republicans simply refuse to form a joint parliament, there really isn't much that the British government can do about it except to start governing NI themselves again. Note that I'm not trying to defend anything in the past - much of it is indefensible, and I won't pretend I'm not ashamed of some of the things done in the name of the country I live in. But to say that the British government and the RUC are beating and murdering ppl, now, today, contradicts the facts - it just ain't so. Certainly there are murders going on - these appear to be committed by extremist terrorists on both sides of the divide. The punishment beatings are still going on from the "normal" IRA and UVF, and several families have been forced to flee their homes after IRA members came in and told them to leave or be killed. Don't forget that the "paramilitary" organisations run drug-dealing, prostitution and protection rackets to finance themselves, and the guys running these are fighting for their criminal livelihoods, not for any cause. I will second you and InOBU in appreciation of those (on all sides) who used peaceful methods to demonstrate against the violence - I respect them for their strength and courage, and I believe that their cause was and still is a good one. Grab. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 01 - 01:49 PM The death of the hunger strikers was the beginning of the end for the division of Ireland, I believe and hope.
But it'll be a long time coming. And I don't just mean partition - that's a line on a map and it could go, and the division would remain. And for that matter it could stay and the division could be ended - two sister republics could get along fine, if the underlying division had healed.
Relying on violence as a way to force a victory, if ever that's the way, it's not the way in a struggle like this. Endurance and determination and a refusal to accept be beaten has always been what determines the outcome. That was true in 1916, and in the Troubles in the Twenties, in spitre of everything, and in the more recent ones. The deaths of the ten hunger strikers did more to move things forward than the deaths of hundreds of British Soldiers, or RUC or Loyalists, or poor bloody civilians caught in the crossfire and the bombing.
In fact, where the deaths of the hunger strikers moved things forward, the other deaths repeatedly and consistently moved them back again.
So they should be remembered and honoured - but not used in any way to preserve the divisions, but rather to heal them. And if we listen to the men who survived the hunger strike, that's what they are saying.
There's a quote from a long poem by an Engishman, G.K.Chesterton that I've been reminded of. It's from the Ballad of the White Horse, and it's King Alfred in disguise as a minstel talking to the leaders of the Danish invaders who are occupying Wessex:
That though we scatter and though we fly,
That though you hunt the Christian man |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 19 Jan 01 - 01:49 PM First, some thread creep: Fubula, I tried sending you a PM recently,but I've noticed you're logging on as a guest. I've got a pal who's moved to a place about three miles beyond Kilkeel, towards Greencastle. Are you aware of any sessions around Rostrevor, Warrenpoint or even Kilkeel? Maybe you could send a PM, or reply here and corrupt the thread some more. But back to the subject, and Larry, I'm with you 100 per cent on most human-rights issues, and in fact most social justice issues, if I'm interpreting InOBU correctly. And thanks for the stuff about Turkey. But there's a world of difference between that and the situation in Ireland. I've been following the plight of the Kurds for years, and it's an international scandal. But Turkey gets away with murder (literally) because it has the second biggest army in NATO, and its army is holding the dreaded muslims in check. The US, which is so quick to bully Chile, Cuba, Somalia, etc, will not do a damn thing about Turkey - while Britain, France, Germany etc can't wait to get Turkey into the European Union. The Irish case you cited doesn't begin to compare - it just risks devaluing the hunger strike as a weapon.(We've got a hunger striker in England too, by the way - Ian Brady. But he's classed as mentally ill, so that makes it OK to force feed him.) It's ridiculously emotive to describe any Irish prisoner these days as "incarcerated" - true as it may have been of Kilmainham and the rest in years gone by. Similarly it is unhelpful as well as wildly misleading to describe the present day Northern Ireland as an apartheid statelet, as someone did - just as it would be to describe the southern states that way. (If the term has currency anywhere in the civilised west, it would be in Australia's "deep north" - about which we get to hear very little, here in the UK.) It's always rankled with the Provisionals, that Mandela and the ANC would not embrace their cause, on the grounds that they were fighting a democracy, which NI clearly has been, certainly for 20 years or more, albeit with the massive flaw of a police force that needs wholesale reform. If we all want to see peaceful co-existence in the six counties, we surely applaud Sorcha's reluctance to send cash in that direction, if there is a chance the cash could go on guns and semtex. Once there is peaceful co-existence, and proper democratic values, what the hell will it matter whether the administration is based in Dublin, Belfast, London or Brussels? I've never understood socialists getting hung up about nationalism. Which reminds me: remember BICO, Larry? Wonder if they outlasted the CPGB? |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 19 Jan 01 - 02:17 PM Hi Fionn: I posted the piece about the Danny McCalister as it was posted to me, unedited. The point in realationship to Hunger Strike commemorations is not the argument over whether or not he is an internee or a convict. The point is, what ever the standard of human rights expectation, compationate parol in the case of death or illness is a common expectation, which is often witheld when there is a political nature to the offence. Even here in the United States, when Father Pat Mullony's addopted son was murdered, he was denied compationate parol, though he was a modle prisoner, who had been out on leave until sentencing, and denial of leave to bury his son was obvious a punishment for his political views, (as was his convicition and frameup in the first place). My best recollection, these many years later, is that even at the hieght of the armed resistance, during the 1981 hunger strike, family members were allowed to attend the funerals of immidiate family. I would point out that the many members of the families of the ten men who died in 1981, are asking that letters be written to Mr. Ahern, to grant compationate leave. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 19 Jan 01 - 10:50 PM So far, in the US, there are committees underway in NYC/NJ, San Fran CA, Seattle/Washington state, Washingtown DC, Boston MA, Arizonia,
And hopefully we can get things going in Chicago and Texas. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 Date: 20 Jan 01 - 12:01 AM I think the one of the most chilling books I've ever read is May the Lord in His Mercy Be Kind to Belfast, because the vast majority of the people interviewed seemed to believe that their lives were normal. And I only wish that the good people there who have spoken with their votes would recognize two things: 1) The people who persist now in using violence to attain political ends are not "partisan heroes" anymore: they're criminals. It's up to "the neighborhood" to support the law, the peace process. This is true in any neighborhood in the world. In a country of generations brought up on the evils of "informing," this will surely be a hard pill to swallow. But reporting crime is NOT "informing," and never will be: if we want peace, we have to stand up for it ourselves. 2) Nothing is written in stone and compromise can be a good, nay excellent thing, making half the people involved feel that the movement is forward, and the other half feel that a change is minor, tentative, and not so threatening. End of rant. InOBU, will email to see about further information. I'm curious about how the commemmorations events are formatted/planned. Sarah |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Fiolar Date: 20 Jan 01 - 04:57 AM To Fionn: Come on - you can't compare Ian Brady to say Bobby Sands surely. Brady was the chap who with Myra Hindley tortured and murdered innocent children. The pair are known as the Moor's Murderers. They killed for the enjoyment of killing. Bobby and his compatriots died because they believed that what they were doing would result in something better. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 20 Jan 01 - 09:37 AM I would also question the observation that there was democracy in the North of Ireland. In fact, when you have a large number of prople in the community forced, violently into mirgration to other nations, enough, in fact, to change the balence of political power, then the maintainence of a majority is called into serrious question. In fact, many in the IRA and INLA were quite committed to the goals of the ANC, yet were outspoken about their objection to Necklacing as a crime against humanity. I was involved in a disscussion with an INLA ex-volunteer, who was reduced to tears while expressing his objection to torture killing by anyone in a war. I realize that this may lead to knee jerk reactions that, wel the INLA did X, Y and Z, but don't read into this more than I have said. I again say, as I have said in the past posts, that talking about the past is the best way to defuse the harm, especially if all THREE parties come to the table with an honest attempt to create an understanding of history. In order for there to be a truth and reconcilation process in Ireland, we need England at the table with the Stalker report, open and available. Best wishs for peace. Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Jimmy C Date: 20 Jan 01 - 09:59 AM I did not want to get into this as my emotions run wild on issues like this. A few statements regarding the hunger strike deaths, I was deeply saddened when those men died, sorry for their families, sorry for Ireland but more sorry because the republican movement had less men. I admire the stand they made, having an ancestor apparently die the same way many years ago. Some of the above responses are all about democracy etc, etc. Many seem to forget that democracy was never practiced in Ireland, It was not a democratic process when the country was divided against the vast majority of the people. It was not democracy when the catholic majority in Derry city were virtually shut out from all local government positions and housing allotment. Was it democracy at the Belfast shipyards when 40% of the people accounted for only about 8% of the jobs (lower paying ones at that) ?. What happened to civil rights when the large "Ormo" Bakery had a banner across their main doorway that read" No Catholics Hired Here" or words to that effect. All this while the Westminster Government stood by in silence. Now many people above state that they abhor violence, we all do or should, but the fact remains that the British stood by and watched a protestant state for a protestant people be set up and governed for years by a bunch of anti-catholic bigots. When a past Premier of N.Ireland (Basil Brooke) stated that he would not employ a catholic nor " have one about his place" our so called parent government in Westminster again remained silent. I left Ireland 3 years before the trouble started, because I could not see myself bringing my children up to be treated as 2nd class citizens like I and my brothers were. There was vast denial of basic civil rights for 50 years and the British Authorities did nothing about it, and that my friends is the truth. This would not have been allowed to happen in Swansea, London, Glasgow, Birmingham or anywhere else, but it was ok for Ireland. That is why we have the troubles, even the meekest form of life will turn angry if pushed enough. And I believe that because international images suffer, thanks to television and radio, when news can be sent across the world in a matter of minutes instead of days, they would still not do anything about it. I truly pray that the peace process gets back on track and a solution is found for the citizens there to live a normal life, although I also believe that when these Unionists democrats who talk about the "VAST MAJORITY" (which is not as vast as they think) when this "VAST MAJORITY" become a minority they will not bow to democracy and abide by the will of the people for a united country. They will instead bring out their guns and bombs again, probably with some secret british backing to fight to remain British. I also believe the I.R.A. should guarantee that their guns will not be used to break the peace. However all must realize that sooner or later those guns are going to be needed to ensure "DEMOCRACY" and needed in the not too distant future, The vast majoity that is mentioned many times on the T.V. and in the newspapers does not exist. I would be surprised if the loyalist made up more tha 55% if the total population today. They are not a vast majority in Derry, Armagh, Tyrone or Fermanagh. -- They are the majority in Antrim and Down due mainly to the population of Belfast, but it is definitely not a vast majority. Like it or not, the nationalist will be the majority within a generation or two. When the flag of a united Ireland is flying all over Ulster and over Stormont and Belfast City hall then will the sacrificies of the republican dead and all the hunger strikers thoroughout the ages be remembered and never forgotten. Lets all hope and pray for peace in Ireland and throughout the world.. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Jan 01 - 10:03 AM I, once again, agree with Larry (InOBU). Lets stop all this 'he did this, she did that, they did the other'. In my earlier post I said the only way forward is to put the past behind us. Remember that if you try to move forward while looking behind you will inevitably walk into a hard, and sometimes painful, obstacle. Big Mick said he was proud that this commmity. I am as well. Lets not spoil it by raking up the ashes of what should be a long dead flame. People of Belfast, let us know what we, the peaceful masses of the UK, can do to help stop the violence and I, for one, will do my best. Cheers once again DtG
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Jan 01 - 10:05 AM Should read 'proud of this community' of course... Dave the grammar correcting Gnome! |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Nynia Date: 20 Jan 01 - 10:06 AM For background info try Click here This may be the best song re the hunger strike (I make no political comment about the situation in Ireland past, present, or future) The Ballad Of Joe McDonnell. Oh my name is Joe McDonnell, from Belfast town I came, a city I will never see again For it was in the town of Belfast, I spent many happy days, I love that town in oh so many ways It was there I spent my childhood, and I found for me a wife, I then set out to make for her a life Oh but all my old ambitions, met with bitterness and hate, I found myself inside a prison gate And you dare to call me a terrorist, while you look down your gun When I think on all the deeds that you have done You have troubled many nations, divided many lands You have terrorised their people, you rule with an iron hand You have brought this reign of terror to my land Through the many months of internment in the Maidstone and the Maze, I thought about my land throughout those days Why my country was divided, why I was trapped in jail, in-prisoned without crime or without trial And although I love my country, I am not a bitter man, but I see cruelty and injustice at first hand So on that fatal morning, I shook both freedoms hands, for right or wrong I tried to free my land Then one cold October morning, trapped in a lions den, I found myself in prison once again I was escorted to the h-blocks, for fourteen years or more, on the blanketed conditions they were poor So a hunger strike we did commence, for the dignity of man, but it seems that no-one cared or gave a damn But now I am a saddened man, I watched my comrades die, if only people cared or wondered why no chorus May god shine on you Bobby Sands, for the courage that you have shown, may your glory and your name be widely known And Francis Hughes, and Ray McCreesh, who died unselfishly, Patsy O'Hara, the next in line is me And those who come behind me, may your courage be the same, and pray to god my life is not in vain Oh sad and bitter was the year of Ninteen Eighty-One, for everything I've lost and nothing's won Oh my name is Joe McDonnell, from Belfast town I came, a city I will never see again Nynia |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Jan 01 - 10:19 AM Beatiful words, Nynia. Do you have the music or can you recommend a recorded version? DtG |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Jimmy C Date: 20 Jan 01 - 11:20 AM Dave, It's too bad all Brits are not like you, then we would have the problem solved, unfortunately the problem today is a Unionist Population that think their way of life in the 6 counties can go on forever, this , coupled with a mindset of some U.K. politicians that they still have an empire. When they realize that their days in Ireland and some other places are numbered and that the British Empire for good or for bad is a thing of the past, then some progress can be made. The english people can ensure that they elect politicians who are going to say to the Unionist in the 6 counties "Look here chaps, we have had enough of this island, we are not prepared to commit any more resources and money to keep this place going the way you would like it to." "We are therefore severing the Irish/English connection as of 12 midnight on such and such a date. period. And if you want to have any type of peaceful existence in the future, you better make up with your republicans neighbours and you better do before the deadline expires." Dave, this is what the english can do, make it an electon issue,make it an economic issue, make it an issue whereby english taxpayers' money is not being spent on Ireland. I believe it is costing millions per day at the moment, I'm sure the taxpayer does not want his hard earned money spent that way, I'm also sure that the majority of decent English people want nothing more to do with Ireland. make that voice be heard. do not vote for anyone who is prepared to put this on the back burner otherwise more Irish and English lives will be lost. Thanks for your concern |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 20 Jan 01 - 11:36 AM I have always been fond of the Ballad of Joe McDonald, though I have always sung it, as I learned it, not "for right or wrong", but "for the workers I would fight..." and not may your glory etc. in the Boby Sands verce, but "may your writings and your deeds be widely known..." I probubaly have some sticky version or another... Dave, to be most accurate, I agree that the process of truth and reconcillation begins - not with "You did... and I want you to say you are sorry before I speak to you." but with "I did... for this reason and know I ask you forgive me so we can build together" - So it is a looking back, but a looking back to create understanding, not to rub the other's nose in the past. Actually, Jimmy, I was surprised to find a real change of feeling in England a few months ago. In the south east, where there was real anti Irish feeling ten years back, they are now rediscovering their Celtic roots, and playing bands like "After Hours". I think the majority problem in England, like in the US, was apathy, looking the other way as their government did terrible things, though there is a deep set undercurrent of anti catholism that persisits in a large number of English people, a reverberation of their own civil war - but I would say that in my experience that is a minority feeling, though a large minority. all the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Jimmy C Date: 20 Jan 01 - 12:06 PM Well I'm glad to hear about the change of feeling. Here's hoping it grows. slan |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 Date: 20 Jan 01 - 01:13 PM Nynia, what a powerful song...we need the tune here, more than one of us! Where can we get a recording? My Irish heritage played a large part in my upbringing, resentment of the English being part and parcel of it. As the old "joke" went, I was almost 10 years old before I learned Damned Brit was two words. Asking an Irishman to forget the past is like asking an Irishman not to be so flippin' political all the time; some things are visceral. "Let Erin Remember" isn't just a catch-phrase but is part of the makeup of a culture stretching back to the first Celts landing on the shores of the island. Harboring the bitterness is another matter, though: I have to believe that history is for us to learn from, sometimes to celebrate, sometimes to serve as a warning -- as in the lessons learned from the vengeful Treaty of Versailles and what it spawned -- but history as a tool to foster resentment and hatred is just plain wrong. Like Lar Redmond, I've never actually met the Englishman I'm supposed to loathe and despise. Without exception, the ones I know have turned out to be decent people who shake their heads and say, "I don't know what we're doing there. I don't see it at all, and I'd vote for any (expletive omitted) politician who'd work to get us out of there." I suspect that JimmyC is right in the premise that the movement to get the English government out of Ireland needs to begin in England. Those are the voices Parlaiment will heed -- the voices of those who can deny them their jobs. Speaking from our own horrific experiences during Viet Nam, it's when the average man begins to speak out and question his government that the politician begins to listen. So Dave, I'd humbly suggest that you consider making the issue a part of your pub conversation, asking your mates how they feel about the mess Randolph Churchill left behind. Just to start is at least to start. End of second rant. Sarah |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 01 - 01:31 PM I am pretty certain that if at any time in the last 50 years a referendum had been held in England, or indeed in the whole of the United Kingdom, there would have been a majority for an end to the Union with Northern Ireland. But that's not how politics work, in any country.
I also believe that if the Republican movement had managed to wage a dedicated and sustained campaign using exclusively non-violent methods, that would have got us to the present situation and beyond at least as quickly. I think it would very likely have meant many deaths, but probably fewer than in the campaign that was waged.
But picking over the bones of the past is not what needs to be done now. We could argue forever about what would have been best, and about what might have been possible, and there's no way ever to reach a firm and unquestioned resolution of the argument.
It may well be that within a generation or less there will no longer be a majority of people within the Six Counties who want to retain within the Union. I think most ordinary English people will be very pleased indeed when that happens. But as Jimmy C points out, that could just be the beginning of a new phase of Troubles.
The important thing is not ending partition as such, it is ending the division that underlies it and that brought it about, and that preserves it. I don't mean, of course, that the religious variations should be swept away. What has to gois the absurd idea that differences of religion, and the cultural differences that accompany these must somehow determine peoples sense of nationality.
One thing that might make this easier is the present condition of the English Conservative Party. A major factor in deepening that division for more than a century has been the way that certain elements within that party have exploited the existing division by "playing the Orange Card". This has been repeatedly done cynically, and without the slightest regard for the well-being of any of the people of Northern Ireland. But the Orange card is no longer a card that counts for much in England - and by the time the Conservatives can realistically hope to be back in power it will count for even less.
But above and beyond those kind of considerations there is the challenge to the people of Ireland to heal the historic division. And that means that, whatever may have been the case in the past, violence of any kind, even in the face of provocation can no longer play any positive role. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 20 Jan 01 - 02:22 PM Hi Kev: Pols taken show that you were right. The majority of the English people wanted out of Ireland for a variety of reasons. We should also remember the bravery of the Troops Out movement, the British equivalent to the Viet Nam Veterines Against the War. The troops out movement was made up of ex-soldiers who often went beyond saying it was not good for us to have been there, but we were forced to do wrong and for the good of our national soul we should be out. Best ot all Larry |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 Date: 20 Jan 01 - 02:51 PM McGrath, you've touched upon the point that is most difficult for people in the U.S. to understand -- the religion-based partisanship. The idea of Protestants and Catholics being able to kill each other, or even dislike and distrust each other because of their church affiliation is just beyond us. My neighbor might worry that I'm going to hell because I'm not a member of his/her church, and may irritate and bore me to tears proselytizing, but hate me? kill me? We can't credit it, somehow, nor the inability to see beyond it. One of the really frightening parts of May the Lord in His Mercy Be Kind to Belfast is the section on how people in North have small ways of discovering each other's denomination without actually asking: What dry cleaner someone recommends, what pubs you frequent, etc. -- and how terribly important it is to relationships. I know it's there; I know it's (to Americans) disproportionately important. But I cannot fathom it. Sarah |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Date: 20 Jan 01 - 03:11 PM As an Anglo Irish Protestant, I would say that the prejudice is one sided. I have NEVER experinced prejudice from anyone in the Catholic or Nationalist community in the North of Ireland. It is with great happyness that I also tell everyone, Danny McAllister has ended his hunger strike, after comming to an agreement with the Dublin Government. All the best Larry Otway |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 Date: 20 Jan 01 - 03:31 PM Now that is a cause for rejoicing. Sarah |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 01 - 04:44 PM Religion is the badge, but it's not what it's about, any more than it is in Palestine or in former Yugoslavia.
Or rather religious affiliatiion come into it, but not religious beliefs. Thee's been instilled into Protestants of the North a fear that a break from Britain would mean dangerous change. For some it's a fear of a loss of privilege, for others it's a fear of persecution, and a loss of their separate identity and culture, of which religion is a part.
And the truth is, these haven't been totally groundless fears. The Protestant populatiion in the 26 countries has shrunk, not because of direct persecution, but because of things like pressure from the church and the community in mixed marriages for the children to be brought up as Catholics. There's no real reason to think that the Union has had any significant difference which has stopped that happening in the North, but it's been easy to stir up fears.
And one undeniable effect of the IRA campaign over the past generation has been to drive a wedge between the two parts of the community. I was on the Burntollet march in 1969 - and among thye marchers I remember talking to a good number of young people from Protestant backgrounds. The leadership of Civil Rights Movement included the Protestant (from the South) Ivan Cooper.
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 20 Jan 01 - 09:50 PM Kevin (McGrath), me too. Maybe we met along the way? Nynia, thanks for the blue clicky - that's a hell of a useful site. Sarah2, a caveat with your thoughtful post about criminalising the political heroes, etc. The anti-union community has no faith in how the present democracy is policed - and for good reasons, not all of them historical. Ideally policing would have been the starting point - the creation of a non-partisan, high-calibre police force, capable of earning the respect of both communities. It would have given a better climate for progressing the peace initiative. I think Jimmy C and Sarah put too much weight on getting the brits out. The London and Dublin governments, with US support, are constructively engaged in a long-term strategy for achieving stability, and I'm sure this will lead to a united Ireland - unless sovereignty issues are somehow overtaken by the European dimension. Not that if matters where the boundaries fall, if you've got peace and stability. Neither is the solution as simple as telling the unionists where to get off. Those who think that way might keep in mind that if they'd been born into unionist families, they'd probably have a unionist mindset themselves. It's an irrational, even desperate mindset - but entirely consistent with a seige mentality. Push the prods too hard, and they'd fight. Some would die, and those that died would become martyrs, to inspire another generation's sacrifices. Fine if you want war; misconceived if peace is the aim. OK progress may be frustratingly slow,but we're still farther on than I'd have dared hope ten years ago. Lastly (phew!) I can assure Fiolar I was not likening Brady to Sands! Just making the point that not all hunger strikes have equal merit. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 Date: 21 Jan 01 - 12:10 AM McGrath, your second and third paragraphs illustrate what it is there that boggles the mind over here. We just can't get the idea of interdenominational persecution or intimidation. Too many generations have passed since we faced religious division on that scale. If an engaged couple of different denominations here faced a Catholic priest who insisted their children be brought up Catholic, they'd laugh in his face and go find a priest with a brain. Or take the offspring to both churches and let them make up their own minds when they're old enough to consider their beliefs and how they want to practice them. But the religious upbringing of the children would be decided by the couple, not by any church. Employers here can't ask your religion, let alone your denomination, when you apply for a job. It's not a question you face at the border entering the U.S. It's not even something you'd introduce into a conversation at first meeting, or inquire of the person who introduces you -- in fact, it's considered intrusive to ask; people would assume you're about to proselytize. Fionn, my concern with the British presence is that, because they're British, they seem to exacerbate the anger and prolong the mistrust. French, Scandanavian, Japanese: probably any other policing force on earth would be more trusted by both sides. And I'll freely concede that a rerun of the events of the '20s in the south is all too probable in the current climate. It's a dicey situation all around, with people who were vociferously espousing Unionism/Republicanism suddenly jockying for power in a regime that doesn't even exist yet. I just wonder whether the British government, because of their none-too-snowy history with the Irish, are the ones to be guiding the transition. Sarah |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 01 - 11:01 AM "Too many generations have passed since we faced religious division on that scale. If an engaged couple of different denominations here faced a Catholic priest who insisted their children be brought up Catholic, they'd laugh in his face and go find a priest with a brain."
Not that many generations, especially when it comes to "mixed marriages". My mother-in-law's family were years getting over it when she married a Catholic. And thta was in England.
But the division in Northern Ireland can be seen as analogous to the black/white division in America - it's an essentially superficial and irrelevant difference, pigmentation or religious affiliation, dividing people who are remarkably similar in what really matters, but it's been made a marker for where any individual fits into a society divided by history and injustice. |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 Date: 21 Jan 01 - 12:20 PM McGrath, I'm talking about the U.S. as "here." I understand you still have denominational prejudice hangover in England. I won't say it doesn't exist here, but it's happily very, very rare. And, as a big country, one can always move away from the in-laws. Far away. But I can begin to get a glimmer of understanding, when you speak of racial division. The KKK today is much more underground than a few generations ago, of course, but one can remember when they were blatantly present in some states. Their leanings are no less violent than before, though. The change is in their neighbors, who see them as pariahs today, not knights preserving the "grand" social structure of the South or the "natural order." People who live on hatred sadden me. How draining it must be to wake with anger in the heart each day. Sarah |
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 01 - 12:37 PM "Many generations" to me would mean at least 75 years, and that's stretching it a bit, since it's only trghree generations. I don't think you'd have had to look far to find pretty fierce religious antagonisms in 1926 USA. In fact wouldn't that have been in the heyday of the KKK? Which was down on Catholics as well as Jews and black people, as I understand it.
And of course Ian Paisley got his "doctorate" from Bob Jones University a lot more recently than that.
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Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jan 01 - 01:10 PM Larry and Sarah, a couple of things I cannot let pass. "..a deep set undercurrent of anticatholicism .." and "..denominational prejudice hangover in England" I am 51 years old and have lived here all my life. I have honestly never come across any such feelings in any English person I have ever met. In Glasgow and in Fermanagh (the only Irish county I hve visited), but never in England. Also I don't believe that even our politicians want to hold on to the 6 Counties, they bring us nothing but pain and crippling drain of resources. The likely bloodbath that would follow a pull out are just too frightening |
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