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BS: major religions and homophobia
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Subject: major religions and homophobia From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 18 Feb 01 - 09:27 AM Here in Sheffield the students union 'banned' Eminem for among other things the homophobic content of some lyrics. When I heard this I was slightly bemused. Here in England in recent years there have been a couple of pieces of legislation in which leaders of the major faiths poured forth homophobia in an attempt to scare MP's and the public into backing down on several reforms. Yet our students seem unaware of the bigger picture, a rapper telling it how he sees it is one thing, church leaders telling many followers how it should be seen is more worrying Just wondered on peoples thoughts on this, in the future will gay people have been eliminated by gene therapy? Will they instead have equal rights? will the church have moved into acceptance? We have the odd situation here that it is not PC to be homophobic so instead politicians 'welcome' gay people but say that marriage (thereby heterosexuality)is the prefered model ????
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: nutty Date: 18 Feb 01 - 09:59 AM This thread is a bit dodgy isn't it Roger SEX - POLITICS AND RELIGION all at once- maybe it should carry a health warning - LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: katlaughing Date: 18 Feb 01 - 10:44 AM All three have been a package deal for a number of years here, nutty, at least a lot of politicians would have it so, so I guess it doesn't need any more warning than normal. It is not PC with a lot politicians to be non-homophobic in the US. They may claim to be, but they are not, it is too tricky a situation for their political lives. We do have "out" politicians, but not many, and those who are come from what are considered very liberal states. Personally, nothing turns my crank more than someone telling me my friends and family are less than equal because of whom they choose to love. We have idiots over here who have gone so far off the deepend of the religious right that they advocate building concentration camps for all gays, lesbians, bisexuals, feminists, etc., but gay men seem to the brunt of most of their hatred and are seen, according to reports by some human rights orgs., as the last minority towards which it is still acceptable to pour out hatred and violence. God save us from your followers. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 18 Feb 01 - 10:53 AM nutty, as I have understood it, LOL = laughing out loud, on the internet at least. But I don't have you down as the sort to laugh at your own jokes, so maybe I've got it wrong? |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: GUEST, WYSIWYG Date: 18 Feb 01 - 10:56 AM Roger, I have not forgotten that I owe you a response on a related topic. In fact I have been thinking about it quite a bit. That was quite a question you turned loose. *G*G* I will answer it. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Katcina Date: 18 Feb 01 - 12:00 PM I agree with your statement KatL though I would have ended with: God save us from ourselves. KatC |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: katlaughing Date: 18 Feb 01 - 12:04 PM That is a good way to put it, too, KatC, good reminder that we are all on the same planet and related, eh? Mitakuye Oyasin |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Amergin Date: 18 Feb 01 - 12:09 PM I'm not related to her, Katdarling, I think I would avoid each and every family function if that were the case....she's just to mean and ornery.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 18 Feb 01 - 12:19 PM I did think for quite along time before posting this I think the 'strange fruit' thread promted it I was just wondering how the masses could let it happen, let people be lynched for the colour of their skin Then I remembered those religious leaders I had heard on BBC Radio 4 a few months ago. One after another they calmly stated that homosexuals should not be given equal status, if they had backed up their position with any valid reasoning I might have understood, they didn't. Many talked about marriage and children, one was more honest and said that it was not permitted in Islam If not equal then what? Of lesser worth perhaps, a new strange fruit with a crown of barbed wire hanging from a lonely fence Thanks Kat for filling in some of the pieces better than I could have Susan I am still waiting, and could I just explain that I have nothing against anyone of any religion, I just don't understand how some religions let their leaders promote subliminal or outright hatred. So I would like to hear how the various religions and factions thereof view the subject. It might make fascinating reading in the future Roger |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 18 Feb 01 - 12:20 PM Gays need help! Nothing wrong with them but IMHO help would be a great thing for them all to explore! I can tolerate them but I do not ever have to agree with them or find their opinions correct. CB |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: RichM Date: 18 Feb 01 - 12:29 PM Being a homosexual is not an opinion--or a choice. Surely one should not condemn others for the way they were born. We are commanded by the great religions to LOVE one another, not merely tolerate them.
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Amos Date: 18 Feb 01 - 12:34 PM Help doing what, exactly? Sexual preferences aside, what opinions do you think "they" all hold? Or are you only talking about "some" of "them"? Some of the more rational people I have known in my life were gay, as were some of the most brilliant. And some of the most reactionary, ill-informed, neurotic were heteros, although not very good at it. AND vice-versa. As for tolerating "them", well, that is certainly mighty big of you. Seems to me the reason for tolerating others is that they are part of the species and doing no harm. I will assume the same is true of you. The real risk from our society is not gays. The powerful consolidated forces of evil, the undermining of the American way of life, the real danger we must face squarely and conquer, is not gays. No, my friend; if you have any readiness to do battle in defense of all you love best, you heroism should not be wasted on gays -- they are a trivial incident, not a danger. It's the goddamn witches and communists you want to get after. Every single one of them has been programmed by a cross-dimensional beam network, and they do have their agenda clearly in mind. And it isn''t God, mom and apple pie, let me tell you! They don't even like baseball. This is a call to arms. Sic 'em!!!! Regards, Amos |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: nutty Date: 18 Feb 01 - 12:51 PM Fion - I certainly was not laughing at any joke I might have made - to the contrary - I amused by the possible outcome of a thread containing all those three elements, given the responses we have had to threads containing just one of them |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Rick Fielding Date: 18 Feb 01 - 01:06 PM This is a joke, right? I mean in this day and age, people are still discussing SERIOUSLY whether same-sex folks deserve equality? Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Katcina Date: 18 Feb 01 - 01:42 PM AHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhh AMERGIN, my little SEX GOD. I would never avoid you. Rather I would stalk you to the ends of the earth to just catch a glimpse of you. Now about that spell I cast your way; don't worry, it should wear off in a few centuries. Bears, KatC |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Bagpuss Date: 18 Feb 01 - 01:48 PM I have always found it a good thing that most of the followers of a religion are more enlightened than the leaders (or the stance the leaders are forced to take....) Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: katlaughing Date: 18 Feb 01 - 01:51 PM Rick come on down to America sometime and check it out...**BG** The debate goes on all across this country, but especially in sparesly populated states, which I guess may be the one saving grace...fewer numbers maybe of homophobes, BUT they are very vocal. I can assure you there is no joke, either. Amos, there are friends and family who are witches and you are way out there in making such a blanket statement. Frankly, I am a bit surprised. Maybe you need a little education on what it means to be Wicca/Pagan? Amergin, I'll bet if you had the chance, you'd be down there in Texas in a New York minute...watch out KatC! Roger, thanks for asking in a kind and thoughtful way. RichM, thanks for saying what needed to be said. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Katcina Date: 18 Feb 01 - 01:53 PM Oops, guess it's too late to hide my witch status from Amos now. So much for being a hidden pagan witch. KatC |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Morticia Date: 18 Feb 01 - 02:00 PM According to Amos I've been programmed....and I didn't even notice!And I'm actually very fond of apple pie....don't know what I did to offend you, Amos,in going about my quiet pursuit of my own religion? I can only guess you are joking because I find it very hard to believe you really hold those views. |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: katlaughing Date: 18 Feb 01 - 02:04 PM One would hope so, huh, Mortee? Maybe we've just been reeled in? |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: GUEST,Wavestar Date: 18 Feb 01 - 02:13 PM Woops little Katkins... can't you tell Amos is kidding? It seems to me that he was making a blanket statement that was patently ridiculous, just like any that is made about gays and how 'they all' think. Rick, it's not only being discussed, it's just about fought over in the streets. I'm from Vermont, the only state in the Union to have legislature offering the same legal status to gay couples as to hetero ones, and the civil union, which is sometimes called 'gay marriage'. It's not actually marriage, but it's the closest we've been able to get yet - legal rights of spouses, and protection under the law. Whether the local churches respect the union is up to them. But let me tell you, the protests, screaming and debtes that went on when the bill was being discussed were fierce, and they still are. Most of the protest, though, came from out of state - Anti-gay groups shipping their advocates to Vermont, to stand on the steps of our capitol building and spout their hateful rhetoric at us. I'd like to hope that in the future, and the not very distant one at that, people will decide that 'love thy neighbour' means exactly that - not judge him, tolerate him, spit on him, ignore him or denounce him, but love him for who and what he is. #1 Peasant, you don't have to like what gays do. Heck, I don't like what George W. Bush does. But you've no right to denigrate or disrespect them - for one thing, their sex life is none of your business. It seems like people will always hate. Maybe it's what we do best. But if people could open their hearts, arms, and eyes, and drop their preconceived notions about what black people think, act like or do, then maybe they can do it for gays as well. Churchs of various denominations have welcomed them, and often even married them. Sometimes it's just one parish, or just one pastor/minister/priest, but that's a start. If everyone tries just a little harder to understand... it's only love, how much can you disapprove of love? -Jessica PS This issue is admittedly a bit personal to me - my best friend is gay, (as are many other friends). She's received death threats, abuse, and disapproval - just because she loves a woman. So what? My father loves a woman. So, presumably, did yours. Why should it matter that she's a woman too? I want protection and aceptance for her and everyone like her, because nothing makes me angrier than knowing that people hate her just because of who she loves.
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Katcina Date: 18 Feb 01 - 02:14 PM Well Morty, I am almost a perfect fit for Amos' witch. I don't like apple pie though I love apples fresh off the tree; Mom was a real Bitch, better if she had been a witch; I loath baseball unless I am playing; but a higher being does exist in my life and that I guess leaves me a bit imperfect. As for being programmed, there's not a program available to date that can contain me. KatC
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: kendall Date: 18 Feb 01 - 02:45 PM The reason for all that blind hatred? Our reptilian brain is still very active. It is a fact that the basis of all hatred is fear. Confucious said "Watch closely he who screams loudest." |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Amos Date: 18 Feb 01 - 02:55 PM Reeled in you are, you wicked Wiccans. I have yer number. House of UnAmerican Activities, here I come!!! Commies and witches!!! Everywhere!!!! Why I bet Pete Seeger is probably one of each! And that Art Thieme, hiding behind that baseball cap -- probably one of them pinko commie faggot bastards too, and a basement wizard, too! Seriously, you lovely addle-pated mystics....I love you dearly and am proud of you when you fly across the moon on your vacuum cleaners. the whole post above was a take-off on certain forms of droolingly neurotic mindsets which I always find highly irritating, and which includes the endless flogging of various unbounded, unspecified, un-rational and un-analyzed generalizations with no substantive merit (such as gays, "them", etc.). I was just dramatizing the concept a little bit to demonstrate the ludicrousness of that style of thought. I do believe we can do better. Pax in your wicked little hearts, my magical darlings... Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Rick Fielding Date: 18 Feb 01 - 03:07 PM Guess that's why I don't join ANY groups. (other than Mudcat) I like my own little world. Everyone's welcome to drop by, but with any luck, most won't like the rules, and will go back to their own comfort space. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: katlaughing Date: 18 Feb 01 - 03:10 PM Pax my arse, you wicked toad...just see if a princess will kiss you, now!**BG** |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: GUEST,Amergin@work Date: 18 Feb 01 - 03:19 PM Are you offering to be that princess, Katdarling? |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: katlaughing Date: 18 Feb 01 - 03:22 PM Oh, darlin' Amergin...too much wise womon for toad-kissing, But, well....dream a little suge....*BG* |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Bagpuss Date: 18 Feb 01 - 03:41 PM I am part of a religion that has helped me a lot over the years and has a lot of good in it. It also has views on a few things that I vehemently disagree with. I have a choice - do I throw out the baby with the bathwater and leave my church? Or do I stick to my own beliefs and try to change the church in my own small way - just by being vocal about what I believe in? And for those who think that it will never change, look at the issue of contraceptives in the catholic church. A few decades back, most catholics toed the church line on this issue. Now most catholics find the very idea laughable. And I don't think it will be long before the top dogs change their minds too. A lot of the older folks in my church may be against homosexuality, but none of the younger ones are. I don't know if this goes any way towards answering the original query, but its how I feel. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Amos Date: 18 Feb 01 - 03:47 PM There was an engineer, young and deeply committed, who was walking down a road leading to his office when a frog called to him from the bushes. "Hey!" said the frog. "I'm not really a frog! I'm an enchanted Princess!!! Kiss me and I will turn into the most beautiful creature you've ever seen!" So the engineer put the frog in his jacket pocket, and walked on down the road.. By and by he heard that frog yelling something, so he took her out again. "What's the matter with you?!" remonstrated the frog. "I've told you I will turn into the most beautiful woman you've ever seen! If you kiss me I'll stay with you for as long as you want!!!". So the engineer put the frog in his jacket pocket, and walked on down the road.. By and by he heard that frog yelling something, so he took her out again. "Goldanh it!!!" yelled the frog in its little voice. "I've told you I will become the most beautiful woman you've ever seen! I promised I would stay with you for as long as you want!!! What more do you want??!! Kiss me and I will be your devoted love and do ANYTHING YOU WANT!!!" So the engineer put the frog in his jacket pocket, and walked on down the road.. By and by he heard that frog yelling something, so he took her out again. "I've offered you everything!" cried the frog. "The most beautiful woman you've ever seen!!! Stay with you as long as you want!!! Be your love and DO ANYTHING YOU WANT!!! What's the MATTER with you??!!! Kiss me!!!" "Hey, look," the young man replied. "I'm an engineer. I don't have time for a girlfriend." "But a talking frog is coool!!!. Regards, A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Morticia Date: 18 Feb 01 - 04:54 PM Dammit Amos, I'm going to force feed you apple pie till you puke if'n I ever get my wiccan little mitts on you!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: John P Date: 18 Feb 01 - 05:38 PM The only perversion associated with homosexuality is all the people who are interested in what other people are doing in bed. Making laws against homosexualtiy is as clear an instance breaking down the separation of church and state as I have ever seen. It ought to be treated as an attempt to overthrow the Constitution of the United States. A few years ago I worked with a guy who said that gay and lesbian marraige should not be legal because the purpose of marraige is to produce and raise children. He wasn't bothered by the fact that he and his wife were childless and intended to remain so. Anyone who thinks being gay or lesbian is a choice should remember back to when they were 13 or so and just becomming sexually aware. Remember how you felt about members of the opposite sex? Do you really thing you would have had any choice in your sexual orientaion? What makes you think anyone else has any more choice? John Peekstok |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Katcina Date: 18 Feb 01 - 05:50 PM You'll have to tend to Amos for now Morty. I've just had a load of crumb snatchers delivered that I must remove all fingers from while they are still fresh. KatC |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: GUEST,guestguestguest(intruder)notagain Date: 18 Feb 01 - 07:34 PM major religions and many major political movements are (your victim here)aphobic... it keeps your attention away from the fact that you are dealing with nitwits. in my not a bit humble opinion, any belief structure that denigrates a person/group/ideal/idea/mode of being "just cause" needs a close looking over, and should be kept out of the reach of children. if god(dess) is speaking to me, she is most definitely NOT telling me about you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Ebbie Date: 18 Feb 01 - 07:50 PM kat and Morticia, I am surprised at you! This was Amos, for the love of Pete (HA! Same sex!); it had to be a sendup. And, yes, Amos, that's an implied compliment... Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Morticia Date: 18 Feb 01 - 07:55 PM I knew it was, Ebbie, he's a little devil, isn't he? |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Callie Date: 18 Feb 01 - 08:17 PM It never surprises me when politicians and religious leaders are small minded - it's been happening for centuries! Getting the popularity vote is made easier by blaming minority groups. Luckily, there will always be clear thinkers who don't require arbitrarily imposed structures to help them decide what's right annd what's ridiculous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Katcina Date: 18 Feb 01 - 08:49 PM But Ebbie, it is such fun. Once started temptation just won't loosen the grip sometimes. Heee Heee |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Feb 01 - 08:57 PM ARRGH! Attaboy Amos! Git them witches and commies! Burn 'em all I say! Burn them uppity women who go around takin men's jobs too. Burn everyone who's different and get this here country safe for decent people! Like you, and me, and...well, maybe my uncle Jed, and...geez, gonna be a small population when it's all done, isn't it? Maybe we need a few of them nonconformists after all, or the dang Chinese could just waltz in and take the place. Gawd, it's tough bein' a patriot these days! :-) Now, you could start a thread on major religions and prejudice against women...an almost endless subject, that. But why belabor the obvious? - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: guest(intruder-inactive) Date: 18 Feb 01 - 09:02 PM ::sings softly:: burn down the mission if you wanna stay alive |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Ebbie Date: 18 Feb 01 - 09:09 PM Ah thank ah bean heyad. I'm such a literal person- I must say I was surprised that I seemed to catch it when kat, of all people, had not... sigh Now, Little Hawk, on the other hand, how dare you cut such a wide swath- *G* Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia Date: 18 Feb 01 - 09:43 PM I can't understand the rednecks stance on gay males. If there were more gay males then wouldn't there be a surfeit of women for hetero men ? JG F.M.E. |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Lonesome EJ Date: 18 Feb 01 - 09:44 PM Damn. Has it come to the point where we need an emoticon to indicate irony on the Mudcat? Amos, you anti-wican, witch-burning modern-day Cotton Mather-ite! I |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Amos Date: 18 Feb 01 - 09:45 PM LOL! Thanks for the good chortle, you loveable phoakie nuts! I'd rather vent here than anywhere!. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Troll Date: 18 Feb 01 - 10:15 PM If you think Cotton Mather was bad, you should read some of the stuff his dad wrote. If you believe in the Bible, the Torah, or the Koran, then you must believe that homosexuality is wrong. Period! No if's, and's or but's. It's wrong. It matters not what brand of Christianity, Judiasm, or Islam you embrace, if you believe the Holy Books, then you must be against homosexuality. It is hypocritical to say that you accept one part of the Writings but not another; that YOU will decide how much of the Word of God applies to you. It doesn't work that way. It's supposed to be the Ten Commandments, not the Ten Suggestions. My personal opinion is that all marriages should be civil contracts and that any two or three or however many people who want to enter into said contract should be alowed to. What the churches want to do should be kept separate. The churches and ministers and various shamen of organized religion have got a lot of explaining to do regarding their acceptance of homosexuality. I look forward to the fun. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Katcina Date: 18 Feb 01 - 11:08 PM I do not see the bible as The Word Of God. I read it as a very interesting book that was written by humans and translated many times over by more humans, each with their own view points. I reckon therefore that I can believe any way I damn well chose. I damn well chose to believe that my Higher Being loves each of us equally and that sin is something that more humans have decided upon and it changes with the evolution of humans as to what a sin actually is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: GUEST, WYSIWYG Date: 18 Feb 01 - 11:11 PM Yes, Amos is a real stinker; he's been crucifying me for months and months. Has a special, culturally-relevant death for each group, that one. He is nothing if not accurate! *G* Amos is a wonderful foil for working out what one really thinks and believes. It was Amos with whom I worked out the general notion that one who would kill to be faithful to the tenets of a supposed belief system is not living a belief system worth believing in. What I meant by it was not so different from what some of you have said, above-- God save us from those who believe, but so imperfectly that they twist what meant to love into their own intent to kill. What AMOS meant by it, hmmm... you'd have to ask him! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 18 Feb 01 - 11:21 PM Bagpuss, if the rules change, they must be crap. Blow all that superstition out of your mind - you don't need a crutch. If everyone did the same, that would be one less lever for the crooks to manipulate the masses with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: Amos Date: 19 Feb 01 - 01:26 AM WYSIWYG: If crucifixion is what you were experiencing throughout that dialog then it is pretty clear that what you see is NOT what you get. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: major religions and homophobia From: GUEST, WYSIWYG Date: 19 Feb 01 - 01:40 AM Amos, Silly. I was kidding! Read the rest of the post! ~S~ |