BS: Lies, Lies, Lies

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: dianavan
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:04 PM

Little Hawk - You said it much better than I.

Bobert - I remember coming home from school and finding my mom in front of the t.v. watching the McCarthy hearings or some news about it. She was crying! Now I know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:12 AM

...but what about the strip malls and the smut, Little Hawk? ;^)

No really... that was an exemplary post Little Hawk, and I thank you for it. And Amos... thanks for "May 12, 2004   (letter to the editor, as appeared in the Boston Globe)..."

But most of all, I thank each and every one of you that find the time in your busy day to day to get informed, and stay informed. I just wish the current administration could validate the research we're doing... ;^) ...instead of being against lucid consideration every step of the way.

Interesting thread!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:32 AM

You might want to listen to Terry Gross's interview with film critic John Powers on her program yesterday. He discusses Moore's film and the Bush campaign.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:52 PM

I gather that in Baghdad the man is now actually referred to by Iraqis as "Comical Kimmitt" - Tigris Tales

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:42 PM

Let me get this straight.   Bush lies and you look to Michael Moore for the truth.   Why not just go straight to Bagdad Bob.   He is at least at accurate as Michael Moore.

If I understand all of you correctly, Clinton lied but nobody died so the lies are OK.   Kerry lies but he isn't Bush so we have to vote for him so it is ok.    Hillary lies but she is the smartest woman in the world so it is ok.    Bush lied about WMD's (along with the rest of the world) so he must be impeached or shot before a firing squad, or worse yet- forced to listen to the entire Al Franken show 5 days a week.

It is interesting to note that David Kay stated that Bush never asked him to lie about WMD's.   Woodward stated in his book that Bush honestly believed what he was doing and didn't ask anyone to lie.    Most other people who have come foward have stated that Bush honestly believed that there were WMD's.   We have found labs, plans, long range missles, Ricilin, Saran gas, and mustard gas yet we still say there were no WMD's.   What will you say if they find the wmd's in Syria in October just before the election.   That Bush lied when he told us the Wmds were in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:52 PM

Larry:

There is a world of differenc ein intent between Moore and Bush. Bush lied and if your argument is that he said what he believed ot be true than he is too stupid to survive, let alone muck with the nation. And muck with it he has.

Both Moore and Bush use rhetoric, but the differenc eis one used it to unleash the fire of destructive war-mongering, to spill blood, destroy lives and leave behind the dead of both sides. The other used it to change the leadertship of a country that was pursuing a distorted and harmful path.

I think these differences should be so blindingly obvious as to need no explication, unless one is addressing a hypnotic subject or a blind person.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:55 PM

No, Larry, you don't understand all of us correctly... :-)

Ever heard of a politician who didn't lie? If a politician told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...he/she would not get elected in the first place or even nominated! Why? Because the truth is highly disturbing and would require fundamental changes in popular culture. Besides, I doubt that they even KNOW the whole truth, unless they are infallible and omniscient...but I digress...

They all lie. What people who oppose Bush on this forum are actually upset about is his general policies, foreign and domestic...the fact that he has no doubt lied on various occasions is very much secondary to that, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 04 - 03:00 PM

Let me put it another way...if you really, really dislike a politician tremendously, then you get mad when you find out he lied. REALLY MAD! That's human nature.

But...when you basically like a politician, then you get mad when other people SAY that he lied!

Still, they all lie.

It's really quite simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:51 PM

The TEST: "How do you react (feel) when seeing a picture of president Bush?"

(Yes, it was not completely serious and, yes, it was in a slightly left German magazine and, no, it was not representative):

"Happy - he has so cheerful eyes"            6 %
"Timid - he may be armed"                   8 %
"Angry - I now cough when eating a pretzel" 55 %
"neutral - I see nothing but emptiness"    23 %
"cool - I don't care about him"             8 %

Wolfgang (missing the serious alternative "sorry - he has done more damage to the USA than anybody else in recent times")

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:57 PM

Hmm..about time the American Right took a leaf from Germany's book -- I mean MODERN Germany....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 04 - 05:59 PM

OK you pinkos...Isnt it lovely to have our opinions vindicated by events.
We were all so right, and Teribus,Doug,Larry and all the other true blues were so wrong ,although they are so insecure,that to admit it would destroy them.
But,before we sink into a self -satisfied stupor,lets remember one thing the Bush gang are saying which is not a lie.
Islamic fundamentalism...."terrorism",constitutes the greatest threat ever to face the Western "democracies".
No matter how much we despise the actions and motives of the scum who control us, we should never lose sight of the fact that the leaders of Islam see Western culture as an even greater threat and are determined to wipe it out through increasing terrorist activity.
If the Coalition withdrew from Iraq,dont think that Islamic terrorism would stop,it certainly will not.
Just because Bush andBlair are patently using the wrong tactics against the fundamentalists,the threat to every one of us still exists,and these madmen wont care if were pink or blue....were all "infidels".
Waht we goin to do about it??...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:37 PM

The only thing on this planet strong enough to wipe out western civilization is the power of Nature itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:23 AM

About what have we been so wrong Ake?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: dianavan
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:37 AM

I'll take a stab at that, Teribus.

How about thinking that might is right?

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:04 AM

Well. I have some ideas.

The first thing we do is remember the words of St. Franklin Delano: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

Most of are much more likely to be killed by a drunk with an automobile than we are by terrorists.

I am told that terrorism is only politically effective when practiced by a government against its own people. It's not the terrorists that have infringed on our constitutional rights. They didn't pass the Patriot Act and that's a real threat. We are more likely to be imprisoned indefinitely without charges or counsel by our own government, not invading Iraqis. It's not the terrorists that bulldoze mountain tops and fill the valleys.

We have to give up this war against an abstract noun. "War on Terror" is nonsense. We need to get rid of specific terrorists, perhaps, but War on Terror will work about as well as the War on Drugs has; you can get all the drugs you want in prison, the most tightly controlled environments we have around here.

Terrorism is a crime, not a war. We got Timothy McVeigh by old fashioned cop work, not by declaring war on the mountain states.

And we should quit doing things that we know don't work. How long have Irish & Basque terrorists been with us? Have we learned anything from that?

We should get an administration that doesn't think dissent is traitorous. If you only listen to people who agree with you, you don't learn.

And if we figure out what to do don't expect it to work quickly. Blitzkrieg don't work.

There's more, but my index fingers are tired...

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 03:24 AM

Please address the point of my post .
What are we going to do about Islamic Fundamentalism?
Poke it with a stick ,as in Afghanistan and Iraq?
Or do we withdraw from the Middle East and buy a few more years.
I dont know why you all seem to see terrorism as an attack on each of us personally,the individual is unimportant in this case.
The terrorists now have the means and the will to cause widespread disruption within our economies,our own panic and greed will then finish off the job.
Stop thinking about planes and bombs ,terrorism is becomming more and more sophisticated, and they will use our weaknesses in their own interests.
An example of this can be seen in the "Iranian spy" saga....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 03:34 AM

"the leaders of Islam see Western culture as an even greater threat and are determined to wipe it out through increasing terrorist activity."

That's simply not an accurate way of summing up the situation. The Al Qaeda franchise is very much a minority thing - it's estimaterd that, although greatly increased by the antics of the last couple of years by Bush and Blair and co, there are perhaps 18,000 "potential operatives". That's formidable - but there are an estimated 1,300,000,000 Muslims. And Al Qaeda and Co are not their leaders, for all that they might like to take on that role.

And it's true enough that probably quite a lot of those are people who see "Western culture" as a threat. And they aren't alone in that, given what "Western culture" is actually a euphemism for. But to say that they are "determined to wipe it out through increasing terrorist activity" is just not true.

Yes, Al Qaeda and such are scary - but as for "greatest threat" – I can't see how this begins to compare with the fear of global nuclear war that we lived through in the last century. Or the environmental threats that are looming over us in this century.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Gareth
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:07 AM

Ake - You have put matters in the correct perspective.

There is amongst some, and only a few, 'Catters a knee-jerk anti Americanism/Anti Bush reaction. Some of those few who seem to only inhabit the BS posts to their sole satisfaction.

Negotiation and dialogue should work to remove the causation of violence and terrorism. This assumes the 'other side' wishes dialogue.

In the case of 'Ultras' there seems to be no wish for any negotiation or dialog.

What I think you did not point out was that it only requires a very small percentage of any religious or racial mass to provide an effective "terrorist/freedom fighter" nucleus.

Given the latest press reports of 10,000 + al-quaida 'warriors! Waiting to seek death that then that represents a miniscule percentage of the Middle Eastern Muslim population. Unfortunately, and even given gross exaggeration, that represents sufficient cadre to perform the odd nasty or so.

If I remember correctly, tho I cant recall the source, French Government figures suggest that only 2% of the French population supported actively, or passively, the French resistance movement in the 1940's. That is when they were not betraying rival groups to the Milice or the Gestapo. The French Governments are not prone to playing down the "Resistance". Even these days 60 years later too many political reputations depend upon it. It has been argued, and I do not necessarily believe it, that the French Resistance did more to destroy lines of communication than the RAF and USAAF.

The down side is that over reaction can occur- but would you be the Minister of any Government explaining a major loss of life on the grounds we did not see it as a serious threat ?? Any politician could not ignore this.

A point you do not mention is the "Poor little Rich Kid" syndrome - After all the 9/11 hijackers (if they were accurately identified) were not exactly impoverished, out of the refugee camps - But then. if reports are correct, neither is Bin-Laden.

A parallel in the British left might be the Second Viscount Stansgate, The Redgraves, Sir Richard Acland Bart. Tam Dayall of the Binns (an old Scottish title) and others of that kidney. Or in Germany, the Bader- Mienhof collective (SP).

My particular rule of the thumb is simple, the greater the distance from the working class, the further to the 'left', and reality.

Just my thoughts.

Gareth - (A lower middle class parasite)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:07 AM

"anti Americanism/Anti Bush" They aren't the same thing - as you have frequently indicated, Gareth.

In fact it seems to me that anyone who actually loves America will be likely to be very anti-Bush, and vice versa. I am certain that Al Qaida want Bush to win the election in November, and can be expected to do whatever they can to assist in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:27 AM

It would be in the interests of Al Queda to promote as aggressive an American administration as possible and entice the USA into further unwise military adventures, such as an attack on Iran, Syria, or Saudia Arabia. Al Queda is not rational, and neither is the Bush administration. They suit each other to a T.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:04 AM

Little Hawk- I agree with you 100% that all politicians (as well as doctors, lawyers, business leaders etc) lie.    They couldn't get elected if they told the truth.   Shame on us for allowing this to happen.   We get a "Jesse Ventura" type who actually tells us what he really believes, and we crucify him for not being politically correct.   Shame on all of us.    We settle for the politically correct canned polished speeches because thats what we elect.

My criticism is with those who only see one side of the issue.   Don't rip bush for lying while supporting Clinton and Moore who both lie as well.    Criticize the issue or document your claim with facts.   I am not interested in sound bites.   I write sound bites and I know the difference between reality and spin.

The argument that Bush (and conservatives) want war, and blood, and poison gas, and contaminated water may be the most stupid argument I have ever hread on this board.    Conservatives want the same basic things as liberals- the only difference is how we choose to get there.   You lose your credibility when you hyperbolize like that.

Finally, who does Al Queda want to win?   Lets see.   We have one party that did nothing for 8 years and let him assume power.   There is the other party that has gone to war against him. boy that is a tough choice to figure out who they want to win.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:09 AM

A bizarre sort of rhetorical analysis. Which party did all this nothing? The onl;y fair comparison between these nothings is prior to September 11. During which, neither party did anything. It may be a difficult argument, but Bush proceeded to war in the face of clear evidence he had no casus belli. If he really had an iota of disinclination to go to war, why did he motivate so hard to do so?

I thihnk there is no doubt he wanted war and wanted to be a war President.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:10 AM

"the other party that has gone to war against him."

And as a result of the way that has been done Al Qaeda is now much stronger than it was before. And that is not just some prejudiced lefty's opinion, it's what the International Institute of Strategic Studies - "the world's leading authority of political military conflict" - has to say in its annual strategic survey out this week:

Here's how that extreme left-wing paper the Financial Times summarised it:

The al-Qaeda terrorist network is a "viable and effective" organisation that may be able to call on as many as 18,000 potential operatives worldwide, a UK think-tank said yesterday.

In its annual strategic survey, the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) says al-Qaeda's financial network has survived largely intact, and that the war in Iraq has brought new recruits to its ranks.

So there are a few Al Qaeda people dead or locked up, among much larger numbers of non-Al Qaeda people dead or locked up? Some training facilities in Afghanistan have been destroyed? It doesn't add up to much really. As the saying goes "Whatever doesn't killed me makes me stronger."

Bush has in effect been Al Qaeda's best friend. Of course they'll want him elected in November to keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:13 AM

Ake - So what do you suppose we should do about them? Turn the middle east to glass and start over? My suggestion would have been a covert operation to Iraq, recovery of a few scud missiles which I would have promptly chucked into Iran, thus starting another Iran/Iraq war taking care of two birds with one stone. Still it's not likely that the rest of the world would sit easy with either.

As far as anti-america goes, I don't think anyone here is actually anti-american. The problem here is that some are so pro-American patriotic that they can't see where we have gone wrong over the years and earned some of the hatred that is directed against us. If we didn't keep mucking about in other countries politics, if American based companies didn't keep coming in and taking advantage of "cheap labor" and operating with total disregard for any of the labor, environmental, and safety laws, if America used compassionate guidance instead of strong arm threats and tactics. Just because we have the largest and best military doesn't mean we have to employ it as diplomatic policy.

I don't hate Bush, I don't like many of his policies. This is far different than the 8 years of witch hunts that went on before. Everything that Clinton (scum that he is) said and did was scrutinized intensly, investigated to the nth degree (three investigations into Vince Foster's death and some still believe Clinton killed him). Every action that Clinton might have taken was gleefuly described as "Wag the dog" and "cover for his indiscretions". When they finally got him for Monica Lewinsky and lying to Congress (who had no business asking him in the first place) Most of us were extremely tired of the whole process.

Now how can you expect anyone on the left not to reciprocate? Especially when you consider things like the energy policy being written with Enron's assistance (just prior to their collapse for juggling the books), former Enron employees making up a great deal of the current administration, the whole process cloaked in secrecy. A Vice President who claims that he is not influenced by his former position when every decision he advises on for the energy industry directly affects his pension? A President that won't answer whther he ever used illicit substances when this was a big deal in the Clinton years. Claims of service that don't seem to have a paper trail. Etc, Etc. Etc. And we haven't even gotten to the weapons of mass distruction. Yes the warheads, although unloaded, were WMD's but where are the chemicals meant to fill the warheads? That's what most people are thinking of. And most of us don't regard Mustard Gas as a WMD. A major pain in the ass which could cause some deaths and incapacitate most it came in contact with, but not anything along the lines of the different nerve gases. And nothing like Phosgene, Chlorine or Cyanide in intensity. One warhead filled with Sarin? We've misplaced battle tanks and warships in this country. I can see someone coming across the shell and deciding to use it not even knowing what was in it. Given the materials used to make the shells and the high technology used to keep an eye on Iraq since the previous Gulf War I find it hard to comprehend why we haven't found any stockpiles. And if we find Sudan or Syria know has these types of weapons how do we know they came from Iraq? Saddam's nuclear program was apparently pushing up the daisies (quite literally). The jets found burried were from the previous war and wouldn't work well without a really good overhaul.

We were given dire threats of mushroom clouds and massive casualties that we had to prevent and yet no WMDs were used on our troops as we went in even though Saddam had to know at the time that the jig was up.

The biggest problem I see is that where once we had a country with a pretty incompetent military, we are now training their replacements.
Another problem is that our ports, borders and rail lines go pretty much unsecured with all of the troops employed elsewhere.

And the only out from Iraq that I see is to divide the country into thirds in relative proportion to the different sect populations and then get massive UN involvement to prevent a civil war.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:49 AM

Akneton,

Both Chriostian extremists and Muslim extremists are a p[roblem. But they are a minority. I expect that an 80% rule applies -- 80% of the turmoil is genrated by 20% of the people.

Organizations like the al Qeda, no matter how populous, tend to wither away when their drivers are gone. They build their numbers out of people who need someone other than themselves to blame for their own lack of spirit, rather than poeple who are genuinely motivated to forward their cult. Without a ringleader, the vassals disperse to other things.

I believe the vast majority of Muslims in the world would be quite happy to live lives of simple production, learning the peaceful side of the Koran and getting along with others. The fanatacism is a special aberration that really has to be pushed to be kept going.

SO the answer to "what to do" is to (a) constrain those who would resort to violence (b) remove the incentive toward violence by seeking to establish genuine communication and a reaosnable degree of justice and (c) help build self-genrating economic communities.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:24 PM

Larry K says "Finally, who does Al Queda want to win?   Lets see...."

Nope, let's ask 'em. Wait, we don't have to.

Abu Hafs al-Masri (unequivocally linked to Al Quaeda) issued a statement after the Madrid train bombings. The statement, in part, says that Abu Hafs al-Masri supports the re-election campaign of (wait for it...)    President Bush! "We are very keen that Bush does not lose the upcoming elections." Apparently, they are quite happy with "Bush's...idiocy and religious fanaticism" because they "wake up" the Islamic world.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:22 PM

Amos ...Im afraid you are not correct in your statement that Islamic fundamentalists are much the same as christian fundamentalists.
The difference is in the two separate cultures.
Islamic society is not at all "Democratic",and I dont necessarily mean that as a bad thing in itself. But if Western so called Democracy spreads through the Middle East,it will eventually mean the end of Islam and the end of power for the Mullahs.
Every one of these Mullahs is a potential Osama,if they are squeezed into a corner,and they seem to be able to convince young Arabs of the glory of Martyrdom,therefore they are different and very much more dangerous than our own relatively harmless loonies.
By the way Iv no particular axe to grind on this question,as I think it would probably be quite a good thing ,inthe long term, if the Western economies collapsed and we reverted to the Stone age.
Maybe we would start treating "Mother Nature" with some respect, second time around.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:31 PM

Gareth....You and I agree at last,I never thought to see it!!!
Is there room for me on the "Space Ship"

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:12 PM

McGrath-   It is interesting: the article you quote states that Al Queda ranks have grown to 18,000.   Later in the article it explains how it got that number.    The article says there used to be 20,000 in Al Queda but we have killed 2,000 of them leaving 18,000 in Al Queda.    I don't quite understand if they were 20,000, and now they are 18,000 how can they be growing?    I would love to use that logic with my diet.   I could eat anything and still lose weight.

As far as Bush and terrorism- I really can't believe that someome made the argument that terrorists would prefer Bush in the white house.   Almost every terrorist leader has labeled Bush as the enemy.   The bombings in Spain were revenge for them supporting us in Iraq. (so much for no connection)   In my informal poll (not scientific) I would venture to say that Sadaam and his sons would not be supporting in the upcoming election.    The last quoted word from the sons was "I think this time the Americans are serious.   Bush in not like Clinton"

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:34 PM

Amos ...Im afraid you are not correct in your statement that Islamic

Jeeze, ake...I never said any such thing!! Don't be puttin' words in my mouth -- there's no room in there with both my feet needing space.

Democracy will not mean the end of Islam any more than it meant the end of the Church of Rome, an equally autocratic and authoritarian religous structure. There are scores of conscientious Muslims who live in the United States observing their religion and living under the law at the same time.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:34 PM

"Almost every terrorist leader has labeled Bush as the enemy."

And if you're in that bsuiness it helps to have a distinctive personal enemy, preferably one that is going to make bad mistakes and be regarded generally as a buffoon and a laughing stock. Possibly (possibly) not in the USA, but elsewhere, defnitely.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 04:25 PM

Amos ....I wasn't talking of your tame American Moslems,who could be said to have been "corrupted" by the fleshpots of the West.
But the bad ,mad,men of the East who have been taught to despise life and love death,all to keep the Mullahs power intact.
Islam and Western style"democracy are two completely different concepts and are incompatable.
The most longlasting and successful societies on earth have been undemocratic,in the now accepted sense of the word ...Democracy always seems to bring out the worst in people...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:35 PM

"Democracy always seems to bring out the worst in people..
Ake "

As opposed to Nazism, for instance?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller (contd.)
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:40 PM

--or "the bad ,mad,men of the East who have been taught to despise life and love death, all to keep the Mullahs power intact"?

What is it you're in favor of? What side are you on?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:01 PM

Going by my observations, it's money that brings out the worst in people. :-) That, and fundamentalist religions of all types...or extremist ideologies (like doctrinaire Communism, for example or Naziism or modern corporatism). Together, it's a deadly combination.

Larry - Yes, I think Al Queda does relish the thought of Bush, their deadly arch-enemy, being in power just as much as anyone who ardently desires an intractable and worsening World conflict relishes the presence of their favorite hated enemy...it helps to motivate the public, stir outrage, rally the troops, and encourage further recruitment. It stokes the fires of conflict. They are looking for an Armaggedon, not a peaceful solution. They believe that God will secure them the victory. The last thing you want in such a case is a reasonable, or heaven forbid...a likeable opponent! Hell, no! You want a monster,a devil, a satan, another Hitler, a Saddam, a Stalin...or in their case...a Bush. And the USA is exactly the same...the US government always wants a real or else a supposed brutal Monster on the other side of any conflict it engages in. It's good marketing strategy, and is used again and again and again. If Saddam, for instance, had not existed, the USA would have been obliged to invent him (meaning, find someone else to serve as "Bad Guy de Jour"). This is partly because they assume the public are mostly idiots, and must be given a really evil, evil, monstrous guy to fixate on while the government pursues its various strategic objectives around the World. Well, maybe they're right about their public...

Those who live in fear and hatred market by means of fear and hatred. Those who fall for such marketing serve as the foot soldiers, and, if unlucky, die.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Gareth
Date: 27 May 04 - 07:22 PM

GUEST,Clint Keller

To a degree yes the Nazi's did bring out the best in some people. Unfotunately to many it was a posthumous (SP) recognition.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 07:27 PM

Clint....Hitler,I believe was democratically elected.
But no democratically elected government, seems to govern democratically.
Im far too cynical to be on anybodys side.Im simply pointing out the dangers as I see them.The ordinary people are always the ones who suffer, while the politicians and religious fanatics,twist, turn,bully and cajole in their quest for power over their brothers and sisters.
Little Hawk,I think we must have known one another in a previous existence,as find myself agreeing with everything you say,....Very spooky .

Western "Democracy"is a euphemism for money....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:01 PM

Well, we don't have anything that can really be described as democracy, rule by the people. We have elective oligarchies and dictatorships of various sorts. But rule by anyone is capable of producing some variety of tyranny, you don't avoid that simply by having a different system of goverment, it needs constant vigilance.

WE live in dangerous times, but as always the biggest danger lies with the people who control the most power and have the most capacity to destroy us. That is not the terrorist fringe. On a global scale they are a nuisance. At no time and in no nation have the numbers of people killed by that kind of thing approached the numbers killed in such ways as road accidents, let alone, for example, lung cancer. That includes 911.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:14 PM

Yeah, Gareth. In terms of inspiring a tremendously courageous and effective armed forces and civilian population the Nazis most certainly brought out "the best" in their troops and citizens, performance-wise...but aimed it toward terribly dark purposes. This, needless to say, was not evident to most of those troops at the time or they would not have fought so willingly and so well. As always, the ordinary many in uniform were duped into fighting and dying for the powerful few at the top. I'd say this has been the case in most, if not all military conflicts...although there are cases when those at the top sincerely believe they are defending all that is good and decent. I think Hitler believed that in fact! (But it's no excuse for what he did...)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:14 PM

"By the way Iv no particular axe to grind on this question,as I think it would probably be quite a good thing ,inthe long term, if the Western economies collapsed and we reverted to the Stone age."

I think you would be pretty lonely in wishing that...Ake, you gotta be barkin' mad.

While adopting a democractic system of government would not end Islam, it would break the power of the few. That is exactly what happenned to the Church of Rome (i.e. Rennaissence - Reformation)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:28 PM

Well, perhaps he means "a good thing for the natural environment and some of the other living creatures besides US!" (The great "us", remember? The guys who think they are the owners of the planet, the Masters of Creation, and the greatest thing since Tyrannosaurus Rex?)

The fact is, teribus, there are way too many people on this planet already and there's getting to be too little of everything else. Not a good situation. I have no simple, elegant solution other than a massive worldwide birth control program which most people are apparently unwilling to engage in. I've done my bit. I have sired no children in this life, and it was by design, not by chance.

Besides, I figured I'd have made a really lousy parent anyway... :-) The domestic life is just not my forte. I can imagine doing about 5,000 other things better than raising a family. My opinion is that most people have children partly because they want to, partly because it just happens anyway, partly because it's fun trying, and partly because they think they're SUPPOSED to! I never thought that for a moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:42 PM

If democracy just means having an election every years where you stick a tick in a box, there is no reason on earth why that must weaken "the power of the few". In fact in itself it could well increase the power and the fervour, if it meant that they could claim that they were acting with the approval of the many.

For a free society there have to be significant restrictions on the power of any government, and there is, in some ways, a tension between that and "democracy".

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:42 PM

Well Teribus maybe I am barkin',but I still think there was a lot to be said for the times before technology, industrial revolutions,engineered mass starvation,global warming, environmental pollution,and most importantly, Nature ruled the roost,giving everyone a good natural immunity to disease.Woof, Woof ,Woof

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:43 PM

If democracy just means having an election every few years where you stick a tick in a box, there is no reason on earth why that must weaken "the power of the few". In fact in itself it could well increase the power and the fervour, if it meant that they could claim that they were acting with the approval of the many.

For a free society there have to be significant restrictions on the power of any government, and there is, in some ways, a tension between that and "democracy".

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:50 PM

Couldn't agree more, McGrath. Anyone who has a gigantic amount of money at their disposal (and guess who does...) can easily hijack a democracy, control all the major political parties, and run the show whatever damn way they like. When the people get mad at one bought party, the other bought party takes over, and very little changes. I call it a velvet dictatorship. It looks like democracy, but it isn't. It's a plutocracy.

Still, I do prefer a velvet dictatorship to an outright armed dictatorship...so things could be worse, that's for sure. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:06 PM

Shame on you, Ake. To say the leaders of Islam want to bring down the western democracies is a generalisation too sweeping by far. As with any religion, different adherents interpret it in different ways. But I doubt if there's a case for saying Islam has more fundamentalist nutters than any other religion. You may have noticed that Shia leaders in Iraq were calling on Moqtada al Sadr (viewed by most Shia muslims as a young tearaway) to end his insurgency right from the outset.

The parallel that Amos draws with the Catholic church is a fair one, nad it should be remembered that popes were issuing encyclicals hostile to democracy right into the 20th century.

Little Hawk, re your 9.19pm post: you couldn't have said it better.

McG, to be fair to Kimmitt I think you may have misunderstood his reference to "Ali Babas". Either that, or I did. As I understood it, he was acknowledging that Iraqie were entitled to bear arms, so they could defend themselves against thieves, looters etc - or "Ali Babas", which is the term that Iraqis themselves use.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:22 PM

Fionn: Maybe it's time the good guys made the news. I would love to hear from the ones who do not hate everyone who isn't a follower of Islam. I really would. It might begin to defuse the whole thing. Just might.

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:35 PM

Okay, brucie, I don't and I consider myself a *good* Christian... Problem is that the military industrialists need boogie men to keep the working class distracted while Boss Hog rapes them. There aren't enough bin Ladens or saddam Hussains to go around so they heve just demonized everyone of Islamic Faith.... Make's their Cristian Right Nazis happy, too...

Life is good if yer part of the neo-con facsit movement in Amerika these days...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:20 AM

Who, exactly was better as a Nazi than he would have been as a Republican or Democrat?

Rommel was a good soldier, and a brave man, and loyal and all those manly virtues, but he was working toward making the world safe for genocide. And it wasn't Nazism (how do you spell that, anyway?) that brought out those qualities

And it wasn't democracy that brought out the worst in Hitler. It "brought out Hitler," in the sense of putting him in office, but it's not democracy that made him the way he was.

And it wasn't democracy that made Ashcroft the nut that he is. He wouldn't have been a nice man under Castro or the Mullahs.

What government is it that does bring out the best in people, boys?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:05 AM

Well, now that I've calmed down a little.

I was 4-5 years too young to get into WWII but I remember it, and it strikes a nerve if anyone says a good word about Nazis or Fascists. I cannot believe that they did anything "best." What they did caused a lot of misery and destroyed a good deal of the world, including their own country. There are better ways of making the trains run on time.

And I do not believe that what is wrong with the US today is too much Democracy.

And a hunting and gathering culture is excellent ecologically, but it is not a system of government. There are many kinds of hunting and gathering societies.

I am in favor of an Enlightened Anarchy, but I don't think we can get there from here. Not soon, anyway.

clint