BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:19 PM

Rig--

If illegal immigration hurts everyone you know, let's have some details. Exactly how does it hurt them?

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:34 PM

They're in agony. They can't talk right now.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:39 PM

Gee, that tends to support the allegation in some quarters that your allegation is total drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 May 08 - 11:36 PM

Ron,

         I don't know how much time you have, but I'll start with this:

         First, we need to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration. People coming into the country on visas to do specific things in the light of day are not the ones causing blue collar workers so much trouble.

         Second, as far as illegal workers are concerned, people who say we should be going after the employers are 100% right. I think the board of directors of Tyson Foods ought to be in jail. Lou Dobbs would agree with that, I'm not sure Tom Tancredo would. So there are differences here.

         When I lived in California, the illegal aliens moved in with huge families--6 to 12 children per family in some cases. The schools were quickly overwhelmed, and the people who suffered were the kids who were the legally, and could not get an education.
         Now, they've become so desperate they're laying teachers off in an effort to meet expeneses, and this is a perfect example of what overpopulation does.

          Emergency rooms at hospitals have had to shut down. Hospitals have had to shut down, because they simply could not keep up with the huge demands brought about by illegals flooding into their facilities.

          Wages have been driven into the cellar. Illegal aliens have flooded into construction sites and have taken jobs at wages that are below what American workers can make on unemployment benefits. That has driven the unemployment programs into financial ruin.

         The wages for construction workers continually going down, has driven the value of houses down, which has exacerbated falling housing prices and the mortgage crisis.

         Illegal aliens bought houses. They would not have qualified for loans under normal circumstances, and should not have been taking out mortagages, but they were. Once in default, all they have to do is to go back to Mexico and there's nothing the lending institutions can do to recover what they consider to be "their money." This makes the entire situation much worse, and the empty houses are dragging down the value of the houses around them. To complicat the situation, knowing no one can come after them, they often "strip" the house of anything of value before they head south. This is why the central valley of California is considered to be the "foreclosure capital of America."

            Now I'm back in Oregon. Retired people are flocking here each day to get away from the illegal aliens in California. The problems that have been generated here as a result of the runaway immigration in California is a whole 'nother chapter. I'll fo on with that in book II. But it all stems from illegal immigration and the American government's failure to confront it.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 17 May 08 - 12:20 AM

Don't construction jobs require licensed and bonded labor? They certainly do here in Alberta.
The mortgage problem certainly is not the result of illegal immigrants buying houses, this is a fabrication.

Most shortages in the health care industry are the result of inadequate funding, lack of funding for medical education, and poor wages for medical personnel.
This complaint by a Boston area medical student is typical-
Yearly tuition at Boston Univ. School Medicine- $42734, Fees $2914, Room and board $11933, Books and supplies, $2843. Only about 30% of students obtain any grant aid. Debt after graduation astronomical!

In California, some eight million people live in officially designated primary care shortage areas. An a letter to the NY Times, Carla Kakutani, President of the California Academy of Family Physicians writes:
"In California, nearly eight million people live in officially designated primary care shortage areas. Millions more seriously ill patients must wait several weeks for appointments or seek care in emergency rooms, which drives up health care costs and leaves patients without essential follow-up care.
Family physicians in California support universal coverage and comprehensive health care reform that addresses the primary care doctor shortage. Ignoring this problem would derail any attempt to provide universal health care."
And more to the letter, but that is enough. No blame is attached to illegal immigrants. NY Times, April 13, 2008.

Are conditions any better here in Canada? Not in wealthy Alberta, home of the tar sands and supplier of much of the petroleum going to the United States.
Medical education suffers from the same lack of funds. Hospitals are inadequate in size and facilities; patients wait on cots in hallways and one may spend hours in waiting rooms. Family physicians are booked solid, and take few new patients, although the population is growing since the economy is booming. Specialist attention requires weeks, if not months, on a wait list. The oil millions-er billions- are not spent to allieviate the problem. Health care wages are low, much of the staff is immigrant, people with their first jobs in their new homeland.

Medicine is too expensive a career choice, and it requires long hours if one is compassionate; much better to go into engineering, geology, management, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:26 AM

And last night on Washington Week, a bigoted MSM jerk put an even finer point on "white working class" by referring to "them" as "Scots Irish".

And anyone who can remember ANY media hack using that term to refer to voters in the last 30 odd years or so, has a far better memory than me.

Why not just refer to them as the cracker vote?

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:03 AM

"Don't construction jobs require licensed and bonded labor?"
      
          Q - Contractors sometimes - labor never.



    "Most shortages in the health care industry are the result of inadequate funding, lack of funding for medical education, and poor wages for medical personnel."

                   Not in this case. It's just simply overwhelming demand from clients who nobody anticipated being there.



                  "No blame is attached to illegal immigrants. NY Times, April 13, 2008."

             That's because the NY Times, and their elite readership, is part of the problem. And also because, in this case, they were really talking about a different aspect of health care.
             I would agree with your other observations on health care.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:27 AM

In the above posting I was really trying to explain why I think West Virginia voters went overwhelmingly for Hillary. I wasn't trying to argue a case for or against immigration, but got caught up in attempting to address one of Ron Davies' many pointed questions.

             Illegal immigration (or the lack of enforcing the rules), schools crowded with illegals--preventing native children from advancing, affirmative action, minority set-asides for business, and other public programs for minorities are some of the things that make white working class voters vote for Hillary over Obama.

             I don't think they see themselves as racist at all. They would see the Ku Klux Klan, Neo-Nazi's, and Skinheads as racist. But the programs that were put into place by the folks they call "elites," for the purpose of helping minorities had no negative effect on wealthy white citizens (if you got bumped off the list for enrollment at UC Berkley, your parents could simply buy you a spot at a private school, like Harvard, Princeton, or Yale).
             The people who really paid for the programs to help minorities--and they paid through the nose--are the working class whites who are now voting for Hillary.

             They see Obama as a product of the programs for minorities that were put into place by the wealthy elites, and that's why if Obama is the nominee in November, they will probably vote for McCain.

             Frankly, I don't see anything Obama or any of his supporters can do about it.

             As far as calling these people "crackers," that's up to you, but I don't think it would be smart to call them crackers to their face.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:36 AM

Of course not, the Ivy League liberal types merely do that in private (like during fundraisers in San Francisco) and on the internet, where their faces can't be smashed in.

The crowing wing of the Democratic party that marched out in lock step last Wednesday morning and de facto accused any and all of the West Virginia voters who voted for Clinton of being racists, well...try googling "crackers for Clinton" and you'll get the gist of it.

Every bit as race and class coded speech as anything the right wing Repubs have been doing for decades.

And make no mistake about it, The shit with Obama this week--the Edwards endorsement, the Bush remarks in Israel, the McCain speech to the NRA, and the Obama "attack" on Bush & McCain--every one of those speeches was directed to one group of voters: white male working class voters and their "machismo" voting patterns.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:05 AM

Okay, I googled, whoever put that up is slimier than Edwards himself.

                I suspect the Edwards endorsement did more to hurt Obama with those voters than help. He got the steel worker's union, but all that means is he got he management of the union. If Obama is the nominee, I think the rank and file will be squarely behind McCain in November.

               I think you're misreading the voting patterns by labeling it "machismo." There is some of that amoung younger males to be sure, but I think the more experienced blue collar white is simpling looking for a square deal from his government. So far, I think Hillary is promising that. I don't think there's anything Obama could do to win them over, and I don't think it's his race as much as his history--or maybe you can't separate them.

               The point is, I don't think many of those poorer white voters think it's racism, themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:33 AM

Riginslinger, McCain has a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected as things stand right now.

But as we all know, shit happens. Between now and November, lots of shit is gonna happen, and this last week is but the beginning of both sides trying to out-Machiavelli the other.

I'm not labeling that voting as machismo, but there are always efforts, including efforts by Obama himself in the "god and guns" remarks, to portray the white working class male voters they need to win, as being dumb, machismo, and reactionary.

I think the realities on the ground are far more complex than that, and that Obama already dug his own grave in terms of being able to pull in that voting bloc Clinton has so easily carried.

Which does beg the question, when Clinton and Obama's stands on the issues are virtually identical, why does this gulf remain in the Democratic party?

Answer: war veterans and their families. Veterans of WWII, Korea & Vietnam. And they vote for the candidates they feel respect them, even if they opposed the Vietnam war. So it isn't the youngsters voting for Clinton. It's the older vets & their families, whose lives were so changed by the wars they fought in, they still look to national leaders to recognize them and respect them in every single election.

Which is why we need to put an end to our military madness in this country. It is the engine that drives us everywhere we go in the world.

One more reason why I love Russ Feingold--he challenges citizens to become citizen diplomats for the US in their international travel.

I'm guessing Obama hasn't learned the importance of the aging vet vote to the national psyche at this point, largely because he and his advisors have their heads up their asses. It doesn't matter if he won't win their vote, he still needs to pander to them.

Obama should be standing alongside Iraq Veterans Against the War. He should be demanding they no longer be marginalized by Congress, and that the Winter Soldier Hearings be shown the light of day, in hearings that don't stick them in a back room, and keep their testimony out of the Congressional Record. He should be their champion, in terms of getting Congress to listen to them.

He doesn't have to change his pro-war position to do that, but if he wanted to pull a lot of those Clinton voters inside the fence, he'd start making a huge deal about their right to be heard by the very people who sent them into harm's way.

When Obama meets with vets, there is a huge cringe factor I see that is reminiscent of the Dukakis in a tank photo.

Say what you will about Clinton, she knows the importance of vets to the national "don't tread on me" psyche and how to play to them.

Obama clearly doesn't.

He is surrounded by far too many Ivy League elitists to ever "get it".

Which is one reason why McCain still poses a threat to the Dems winning the White House this year.

And the Bush/McCain machine was very savvy framing Obama for November this week.

Brilliant stroke of genius, and if I may say it, a play that has Rove writ large all over it.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:19 AM

I don't know that I'd write McCain off. When you look at how easily Obama won all of the states in the deep south, he won it with upwards of 90% of the black vote. I think he'll get the same number of votes down there in general that he got in the primary. Everybody else will either not vote for president, stay home, or go for McCain.
          Personally, I've been thinking of voting for everything on the ballet except the office of president, and just leaving that blank, or voting for the Green candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:34 AM

I'm not writing McCain off. Not by a long shot. In fact, if being a Republican aligned with Bush on the war doesn't kill him off, nothing will.

And there is still a good chance nothing will, IMO.

I think there is a very real chance the American electorate will give the Dems landslide victories to take complete control back of the House and Senate, many state houses & governorships, but still deny them White House.

I think there is a very real chance of that scenario being the one we wake up to come November 5th.

But as it stands right now, the Dems, either Obama or Clinton, would beat McCain if the election were being held today.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 08 - 12:07 PM

To address a few of your--unsupported--points, Rig

1) Emergency rooms--many illegals are reluctant to take advantage of emergency health care, for fear of apprehension by the authorities.

2) Illegal immigrants who collect a paycheck also pay payroll and Social Security taxes. They are lopsidedly too young to take advantage of Social Security. And since they are illegal they would not get Social Security anyway.

3) You have no idea the extent to which the homebuyers are legal or illegal--or rich US- born non-Hispanic speculators, who've been flipping houses for years--and just now are getting caught.

You're good at scare tactics--as all propagandists are. A bit thin on facts.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 17 May 08 - 01:20 PM

More digression-
Construction labor-
In Alberta, to work as a carpenter, one must be a certified journeyman, a registered apprentice, or holds a recognized trade certificate. Casual labor can only act as helpers, etc.
The same is true for all other trades.
Apprenticeship for carpenter 4 years on the job training, and 8 weeks of technial training each year.
Is not the same demanded by the licensing boards in the States?

Anyone who builds a house with unskilled or unapproved labor is just stupid; it is doubtful that the house would pass the necessary inspections.

The letters I quoted were by the head of the California Academy of Family Physicians, and a medical student- The NY Times staff did not write them. Rig-'s assertions are nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 May 08 - 01:37 PM

Q - I've been in the construction industry for over 40 years. There is nothing in California or Oregon that compells anyone to be a member of a union, a guild, be certified as a journeyman, or any of that stuff. Check it out.
                   Contractors have to have licenses, and bonds, and etc. but there are a lot of unlicensed contractors out there as well.

                   Re: The NYT article, they just didn't talk about the problems at emergency rooms, but you can read about them at any time in most newspapers around the country.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 May 08 - 01:38 PM

"2) Illegal immigrants who collect a paycheck also pay payroll and Social Security taxes. They are lopsidedly too young to take advantage of Social Security. And since they are illegal they would not get Social Security anyway."


                      Not true, Ron. Most of these people work under the table for cash.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:06 PM

According to Pew Research, 72% of the American public is against the Democratic party & MSM drive to push Clinton out of the primaries.

Of course, the Democrats have never been known to follow the will of the public, so I'm sure they'll just keep crowing for Clinton to leave.

Apparently, no one has noticed the MSM has the biggest incentive for making the horse race "divisive" and "negative" and all that crap.

It's called "the ratings".

Divisive elections make for juicy coverage.

But the arrogance of presumption involved in the MSM declaring a candidate who has won a majority of the popular vote "dead" just beggars belief.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:23 PM

I don't believe she has, in fact, won any such thing, Fantz.

The delegate count at present:


Barack Obama
Pledged: 1612
Superdelegates: 292
Total: 1,904

Hillary Clinton
Pledged: 1443
Superdelegates: 274
Total: 1,717

Popular Vote (w/FL)                        16,680,827        48.4%        16,381,989        47.6%                                

A

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:25 PM

Obama will be the next president.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:49 PM

However, I entirely agree with you about the degraded performance of the American media.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:04 PM

When the Florida and Michigan popular vote is included, she is ahead in the popular vote.

Now, call me crazy, but my thing is if someone goes to all the trouble to get off their ass and show up at the polling booth as a legal voter, we should probably count their votes.

Or we can do it the Obama Banana Republic way, which is to only count the votes that make you the winner.

Which, incidentally, makes the Democrats look about as fair minded as the Myanmar junta.

Unless you have a crush on Obama, of course, or work for the MSM.

And Peace, I wouldn't be so sure Obama will be the next president. I agree he is likely to be the next president, but McCain is a damn formidable opponent, and it is already clear that Rove the Hard Man is already orchestrating on his behalf (whether he is in agreement with that or not).

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:07 PM

Wow!!!

Lotta Daddy Bush stuff going on here... What exactly does eleite mean??? Being educated??? When did that become a friggin' sin...

"These gol danged pin head, Volvo drivin', sandle wearin' elitist is the problem, Ralph..."

Yeah, no friggin' wonder that the US is quickly becoming a place where educated people don't want to live and work... The "brain drain" in America is a direct result of Daddy Bush's teaching his kids well to put down anyone who has made the sacrifices and become highly educated... There are scientists who flat out won't work in the US because of this attack on eductated people...

This is one fu*ked up mess that Daddy Bush and his kids have started and if the US is going to survive it had better start valuing education and quit the friggin' bashing of folks who have pushed to become educated...

And for so called intellegent people here in Mudville to become shills for the Bush anti-intellect campaign is frightfully sickening...

Tell ya what??? What you gonna do when the doctors quit on ya'??? Answer me that one... They seem to be the only intllectuals you folks haven't run the fu*k off...

If that is elitist then sign this ol' hillbilly up...

I am sick of ignorance...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:18 PM

Oh, the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:20 PM

Fanz:

This not a national election, air-head. This is a Democrat Party primary in which the party--an organization--defines a process for choosing a candidate for an election.

The Party and the Flordia and Michigan principles of the party made an agreement about how this was going to go down, and as a result of that agreement, when the two states rescheduled against the rules, the party told them their primary votes wouldn't count--and as a result Obama did not campaign in either state, and wasn't even on the ballot, because he was playing by the rules.

These voters have NOT been disenfranchised. I don't know who was in the decision the state party members made to break the agreement with the DNC people, but it is pretty clear that a ballot with only one candidate on it is not a fair electoral process. Or do you not see that?

What do you think would be a fair solution to the fact that the MI and FL Democrats are now complaining their delgations are being snubbed, despite the fact that they clearly decided this would be the consequence they preferred?

Sometimes your rhetorical armwaving is pure Bolshie, ya know that?


A

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:38 PM

So, Amos--how did you get Howard Dean's job?

And BTW Amos, I sure as shit don't need the likes of a spineless party man like yourself to tell me what a disenfranchised voter is or isn't, thank you very much.

You are such a phony hypocrit! If it is Ohio in 2004, it is a travesty not to be tolerated. If it is Florida in 2000, it is a travesty not to be tolerated.

If it is Michigan or Florida in 2008?

Well, that isn't the same, right?

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:29 PM

Silly airhead--those were national elections, where the citizen's franchise is guaranteed by Federal law. If you don't see the difference, then all your steam is about as weighty as a whistling teapot.

As for being spineless, and a party man, I don't think so.

A

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:54 AM

"Most of these people work under the table for cash." Some do. Any company which itself has to file tax returns cannot afford to hire people on this basis however--serious consequences if they were discovered. So they do not. It's nowhere near as black and white as you paint it, Rig.

As usual, your facts are missing.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:34 AM

Janet--

I had thought you were too intelligent to fall for the "FL and MI disenfranchised" canard. I'll try not to overestimate you in the future.

1)   Your girl Hillary herself explicitly endorsed the idea that FL and MI votes would not count--before she "won" them herself.   It's only since then that we've heard the whining about "disenfranchisement".

2) Her own campaign chairman said in January it would be a 17-state primary season--Hillary's campaign expected it to be over when she disposed of Obama on "Super Tuesday"--so did not plan at all beyond that. ( Not exactly the best advertisement for a president--who really should be able to plan for more than one contingency). But when he said that, it would seem that 33 states would have been "disenfranchised" according to the Hillary plan. Yet obviously that did not bother her people--or Hillary herself.

3) It's a tempest in a teapot, at this point. I've read that the Michigan Democratic party has offered a deal whereby she gets 69 delegates and he gets 59. And the Florida party solution has to do with halving the number--so she will come out 29 ahead in FL. He'll still be comfortably ahead.

Time for even you to come to terms with the fact that he ran a much better and more innovative campaign--harnessing the power of the Net to raise money in small amounts from huge numbers of people, thereby giving them a stake in his success. His campaign was also more perceptive, and far more positive than that of Team Clinton. She had all the advantages when she started--and she threw them away. He has won this contest fair and square.

One obvious aspect of this--his team recognized, right from the start---, possibly from his experience in Chicago politics, where numbers are important-- that they could pile up lots of delegates in caucuses--especially in the period right after "Super Tuesday" . Her team could have done the same--after all, in 2007, she had more money, more name recognition, and more delegates already lined up--including the Democratic "Establishment" most places. But they squandered their money on pricy hotels, Mark Penn, and other necessities.

And on top of that she alienated the antiwar movement by refusing to admit she was wrong in voting to authorize Bush to use force against Iraq. She had scads of opportunities to rectify this, including several explicit invitations in debates. But she declined to do so, thinking she could "triangulate" the electorate right from the start---run from the beginning as if she were in the general election, not bothering to actually address the desires of her own party first. Perhaps the "triangulation" was based on advice from Bill--who's been full of wonderful ideas this primary season.

She--and he--guessed-- spectacularly-- wrong. And they have paid the price.

And your accusation of misogynistic attitudes being behind her loss is also-- not to put too fine a point on it--total drivel. There are many strong women who could have run a better campaign--and gotten far more support--and that I and many other Obama supporters would have been pleased to support--and will be pleased to support in the future. Nancy Pelosi leaps to mind.

The first requirement this campaign season was to be strongly against the Iraq war. She blew even this first point. And that in itself was enough to kill her chances.

Her refusal to admit she was wrong in the 2002 Iraq vote--and her backing GWB in his saber-rattling against Iran--forced the anti-war movement to look elsewhere for a home. They tried Kucinich and some others. But when it came down to only HRC and Obama, no question where the antiwar movement was going to go. And it ain't Hillary.

Sounds like classic sour grapes on your part. Unsurprisingly.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:38 AM

Ron, if you're talking about companies operating facilities like meat packing plants, yes the illegal alien needs to steal somebody's social security number, and work on that basis, but it was my understanding that we were talking about construction.
                     The "company," as you put it, might be a developer, or he/she could be a general contractor. In either case, the work is let to a long series of sub-contractors--site development, framing, concrete, roofing, dry-wall, painting, plumbing, electrical.

                     The illegal aliens are usually working for these subcontractors, and that's where they're expenses are buried.
In California, during the recession of the early 1990's, a large number of the plumbers and electrictians were laundering money for crack cocaine dealers. They dealt strictly in cash. They'd buy all of their supplies and materials for Home Depot and Lowes, for cash, and pay their people in cash, and they didn't need to make a profit at all. The profit was in the coke.
                     An honest plumber didn't have a chance.

                     These are realities you won't find in Rupert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:50 AM

So Amos, it is just fine with you to have banana republic voting standards, so long as it is at the state level?

Ron, no offense or anything, but I am REALLY tired of your propagandizing for Obama.

Thanks, I'm happy to wait until May 31st to let the DNC Rules Committee sort it all out, rather than have you shove your propaganda down my throat.

And just so you know, Ron--I don't read 98% of the crap you post, much less cut and past here. And your demands for "proof" are a joke. You come off like a bad parody of Elliot Ness.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 May 08 - 09:04 AM

Fascinating, Janet, that you have not even the beginnings of a counter-argument to my evaluation of the situation--which, as usual, is based on facts and logic, not frustration and bitterness, which seems to be the only song you know.

Your response says worlds.



Don't forget the sedative. And more exercise. And more sleep.

We're only looking out for your best interests.

And thanks for staying out of the gutter. See, you can do it.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 May 08 - 09:07 AM

"Large percentage" of plumbers and electricians were laundering money for crack dealers.

Gee, I wonder why that sounds like yet another unsubstantiated accusation.

Source and date, please.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 09:07 AM

Ron, do you have a drug problem? I ask, because you talk about drugs a lot around here.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 May 08 - 09:17 AM

Janet-

No, not likely. Unless you count music. I'm ferociously addicted to that. What kind of music do you do?

It's just that since your meter appears to be stuck on outrage--and, as Bobert as pointed out, you're sorely lacking a sense of humor-- we around here worry for your blood pressure.

Now how about some actual facts and logic to contradict my reading of the current political scene?

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 09:21 AM

I'm not too worried about my sense of humor, Ron. But I do understand why folks like you and Bobert are so concerned, because it is quite simple for most of us to have a laugh at your expense.

Have a nice day, Ron and work on those kindness skills! We know how hard it is for you to put nice and kind together in practice. But we think you really need to keep working on it.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 May 08 - 09:29 AM

Janet--

"Most of us". Uh, not exactly. Unless you're really a split personality-- more than Bobert, Amos, I and many others thought.

Why don't you realize we're only looking out for your best interests? Constant outrage is just not good for your health.

But I'm still waiting for even the beginning of a rebuttal to my evaluation of the current US political scene.

Don't worry, I have lots of patience. I'll check in from time to time.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 May 08 - 09:32 AM

Janet--

And please tell us, when you get a chance, what sort of music you like to do. This is after all a music site--and Bobert, Amos, I and the vast majority of other Mudcatters do a lot of it. And it's endlessly satisfying.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:05 AM

My precioussssssss....

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:55 AM

"...a laugh..."

Somehow I don't see you being able to laugh at anything, Fantz...

b~

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:57 AM

hehehehe

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:16 AM

Sounds like a bitter laugh to me, Janet .

And where's the answer to my question re: the current political scene? Exactly why is my reading incorrect?

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:25 AM

Here is Ron from the 'Popular Views on Obama' thread this morning:

"OK--still waiting for any rebuttal for this, by anybody who badmouths Obama's chances."

hehehehe

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:27 AM

Janet--


A few monosyllables are not usually considered a rebuttal of anything--except perhaps in your circles.

Perhaps you need to learn this.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:33 AM

I say a little prayer for you...

"May I have the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference."

Accepting the things one cannot change is a very important skill to develop in order to reduce stress and stay healthy, Ron.

Get back to us when you are ready to do your work, and we'll be happy to recommend some professionals in your area.

My precioussssssss...hehehe

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:18 PM

Janet--

There's only one person on Mudcat whose meter is always set on "Outrage". Clue: look in the mirror.

And the fact that you cannot come up with any rebuttal to my reading of the current political scene says all we need to know about your grasp of the situation.


Sorry--no more time to spend in your delightful company for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Amos
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:30 PM

Nothing Banana Republic about it, dumkopf. Not a matter of state or Federal level, either. That is a stupid alteration. It has to do with the party versus the state. The primary election is managed, run by, designed by, and for the benefit of the Democratic or Republican party in its quest for a nominee. If there is an argument wihtin the party that legitimately disqualifies a vote, it is not a legal matter but a party matter.

General elections, at state and federal levels, are a different matter altogether.

Neve rmind, I'm done pouring more hot air into a crowded skull.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:51 PM

"'Large percentage" of plumbers and electricians were laundering money for crack dealers... Gee, I wonder why that sounds like yet another unsubstantiated accusation... Source and date, please.'"


                   Ron - This might come as a complete shock to you, but I didn't hire on here as your personal research libratian. Look it up, it's all over the place.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:54 PM

"It has to do with the party versus the state. The primary election is managed, run by, designed by, and for the benefit of the Democratic or Republican party in its quest for a nominee."

Not when the taxpayer foots the bill for the party, Amos.

Sorry, but homey don't play dat tune.

Of course, the state has a huge stake in clean elections. But the solutions to our electoral clusterfucks in the US are evolving.

50 years from now, our descendants will look back on this electoral era and wonder why we put up with and paid for this level of electoral corruption.

Subject: RE: BS: How is West Virginia doing in elect.?
From: Amos
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:08 PM

Are you saying, dearest colleague, that the Democratic Party--perish the thought--is capable of corruption!!!!!???

But, seriously, are you saying that by making a rule that says if P, then Q, and finding P, therefore implementing Q is tantamount to corruption? How on earth do you reckon that? Florida and Michigan both, for whatever reasons, decided to reschedule their primaries in direct nonconformance with agreed upon rules of conduct, yes? Or do I have that part wrong as well?

That is like going 80 in a 35 zone and calling the cop who pulls you over a fascist pig for not understanding that you were just having fun and weren't endangering anyone. Or like skipping all your classes and calling the prof a capitalist tool because he fails you for the course.

A