Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Apr 15 - 04:02 AM

Thanks, Jack - I forget to check folkinfo, and there's wonderful information there:

http://www.joe-offer.com/folkinfo/songs/749.html

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 15 - 06:54 AM

From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 04:32 AM

That octave leap is a great test to sort the singers from the rest of us!
Though I don't enjoy the 1960s BBC style I do like the speed and singing of Kenneth McKellar here Kenneth McKellar and the two melodies.

This style of singing Scottish traditional music was the sole reason I hated it in my youth.

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Apr 15 - 07:27 AM

Almost exactly a dozen years ago on another thread, Jim McLean observed that

"The Hawk that Swoops on High (by Pipe Major J MacKay) also goes by the Gaelic title 'Creag Ghuanach', the 'Nodding Stone' and is, as lighter says, the same melody as the Mingulay Boat Song. I've played it many times."

On the same thread, George Seto gives the words to the sixteenth- century poem "Creag Guanach" by Donald McDonald:

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=10414

It seems to me that the pipe tune would have to be adjusted (just a little) to fit the Gaelic words. So it would seem that the Mingulay *tune* was not called "Creag Guanach" except by the very few who were aware that the Gaelic words had been set to it and unaware that it was composed (as "The Hawk that Swoops on High") by Pipe Major MacKay.
(Sometimes it's given as "Creag Ghuanach" - don't know which is correct.)

Does anyone know when MacKay wrote "The Hawk That Swoops on High"? Or know anything about him? "The Hawk" was in print in 1936 as part of the pipe repertoire of the Seaforth Highlanders, shortly before Roberton wrote "Mingulay."

"The Hawk that Swoops on High" is not quite identical to "Mingulay" – and, IMO, not quite so good. The tunes are, however, essentially the same.

(PS: Have just heard a commercial recording of Mingulay that contains the lines, "What care we/ Though fighting inches?")

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Jim Brown
Date: 03 Apr 15 - 02:38 AM

First of all, apologies for making a mess of the Gaelic title of the owl song in my previous message, It should be "Òran na Comhachaig".

Second, I've just found a recording of some verses of the song being sung at Tobar an Dualchais (http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/104342/1), but not to a tune with any similarity to the Mingulay Boat Song melody as far as I can detect.

Subject: RE: Creag Ghuanach
From: Felipa
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 07:07 PM

I'm just after posting lyrics of Creag Ghuanach and information on it's author on a discussion thread re Westering Home, because I read that Hugh Roberton based the tune of Westering Home on Creag Ghuanach. Well, there seems to be a lot more votes for Creag Ghuanach as being the source for the tunes of Lochaber and Mingulay. Roberton wrote the lyrics of both Westering Home and Mingulay.

re Jim Brown's message just above, "Creag Ghuanach" is a section of "Òran na Comhachaig" and presumably has it's own tune. Also, the poetry is so old that there is likely to be more than one tune associated with it by now.

Subject: Creag Ghuanach, tune source for Mingulay
From: Felipa
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 07:16 PM

it was my own mistake, mixing up the Roberton songs. I should have posted the Creag Ghuanach lyrics, links and info on a Mingulay thread - not at https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=1278
(it's around midnight here; I shouldn't do web research when tired!!)

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Oct 20 - 10:34 AM

The Clancies sing What care we though white the spray, no minch. I only heard og the Minch of Moor from The Witch's Boy.

And the talk of accents reminded me of my mom, when asked by a cab driver where her accent was from, answered in her heavy Hungarian [overlaid with German, Serbian and French] accent, Eet comes frrom trrying to speek Eenglish!

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 20 - 12:09 PM

Clancys had probably heard of the Minch- white and wild describes it well on most days!

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 11:27 AM

The 'Minches' is an area off the west of Scotland......see here... https://sac.jncc.gov.uk/site/UK0030393    Si I would suggest that this has at some stage been mis-written as 'Minch is'. When I used to sing this in the 1970/80s...these are the words I used then.

Heel ya ho boys, let her go boys,
Swing her head round now all together.
Heel ya ho, boys let her go, boys;
Sailing homeward to Mingulay.

What care we tho' white the Minches
What care we for wind or weather?
Let her go, boys! Ev’ry inch is
Sailing homeward to Mingulay.

Wives are waiting by the quayside,
Wives are waiting for break o'day o
Swing her round boys! And we'll anchor,
Before the sunrise on Mingulay.

Heel ya ho, boys; let her go, boys;
Swing her head round, now all together.
Heel ya ho, boys and we'll anchor ,
By the sunrise on Mingulay.

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: GUEST,Roissey
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 01:00 PM

Yes those words are by Hugh. S. Roberton.. it is a copyright work, but people assume trad. on the whole thing. The words and story of the song are well known on this site and reproduced elsewhere, Hugh S. Roberton died in 1952, so in UK law it will be fully out of copyright anyway, at the end of next year.

My late father recorded it as a single, with seagulls and waves on the intro and outro for Grampian records in 1965. Godawful version really, with an accordion, plinky plonk piano and barely audible snare.

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 02:29 PM

When we wanted to include "Mingulay" in the Rise Again Songbook, I looked long and hard to find out who held the copyright. I did find one printed version that had a copyright from some company - I can't be certain, but I think it was Curwen. Since our publisher, Hal Leonard, controlled rights to Curwen in the US, they let us print the song - but it was a little "iffy."
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: GUEST,Don Day
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 12:10 PM

I always thought it to be 'How WIDE the Minch is', cause it is init. Wide!

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 02:59 PM

Broadly speaking the Minch may be wide depending on your outlook. Aural word variations abound with the Mingulay Boat Song   Some versions have Keel your haul, others have Heel yo ho, Hill yo ho. Wide the Minch, White the Minch..   Still the same copyright work by Roberton, though on the verge of running out of official copyright at the end of next year. I do wonder though whether the publishers will still collect on it - especially with digital distribution companies using software matches? Roberton died in 1952, so after 70 years it falls out of copyright at the start of 2023.   A number of early 20th century songs should be falling out of copyright due to post 70 years of authorship deaths, but I don't know if this is being acted upon. Harry Lauder died in 1950, so his self-penned Scots songs should be out of copyright. Westering Home with Roberton's words will also be fully out of copyright in a year's time (though everyone has been acting as if that one is out of copyright anyway!)

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 06:16 AM

Re Georgiansilver's suggestion that the lyric is "the Minches" rather than "the Minch is" I don't think that is right myself.

There is an area of the sea called "The Minches" because there is more than one Minch. The larger wider channel which is between mainland Scotland and Lewis, with Skye to the south, is called "the North Minch" or more generally it is just called "the Minch".

Whereas the smaller strait between Skye and North Uist is called "the Little Minch" or "Lower Minch"

When folk talk about "the Minch" though they are generally talking about the former.

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 07:34 AM

Surely Allan Conn... I believe the ship is sailing homeward to Mingulay through 'The Minches' not one Minch. How do you feel about that?

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 08:15 AM

So far as the present names on the chart are concerned a boat heading for Mingulay is not crossing either Minch, it's going through one or both of them them and several hours from home. If it needs a song to cheer the crew it may well be hard work beating (repeatedly bringing the head round) into the prevailing wind and so many hours from home.

Having sung the song doing something similar in a modern plastic boat in the Little Minch that's what the words conjure up.

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 08:19 AM

... so 'white' fits the sea state and 'wide' is not relevant.

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 08:32 AM

Yes I believe te white id the head of the foam... It wouldn't matter how 'wide' the 'Minches'... or 'Minch is' as some suggest.

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Mysha
Date: 11 Jun 23 - 04:25 AM

Hi,

Regardless of the similarity, isn't the name of the isle not simply "Michael's Isle"?

Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Felipa
Date: 11 Jun 23 - 05:41 AM

Mysha, according to Wikipedia : " 'Mingulay' is derived from Mikil-ay, the Old Norse for 'Big Island' "

http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/m/mingulay.html:
'[1995:] A large number of the place names in the Barra isles are of Norse origin (or are compound Norse-Gaelic), as are the names of the islands themselves. The name Mingulay is thought to derive from the Old Norse 'mikil', meaning big, and 'ay', meaning island. In Gaelic it is 'Miughalaigh', pronounced something like 'me-ul-eye', or 'Miùghalaigh', which accounts for the form 'Mewla' given in a 17th century source. [anon 1620 in J L Campbell, ed, "The Book of Barra", 1936, p 44] Monro's version of 1549 - Megaly - is the earliest known; Martin Martin, 1695, gives 'Micklay'. The current spelling and pronuciation in English has drifted further from the Gaelic than in other cases, possibly because of the various forms used by early writers and map makers. [...] Mingulay's most famous song - outside Barra and Vatersay that is - is "The Mingulay Boat Song'. But neither the words nor the melody originate anywhere near Mingulay; it is a romantic invention of the 20th century. It was devised in 1938 by Glasgow-born Sir Hugh Roberton, who was very fond of the melody of 'Creag Ghuanach', a song from Lochaber, which celebrates a crag near Loch Treig. He needed a sea shanty, and so he adapted the music, chose the romantic name Mingulay, and composed the words. It was to be sung in F, slowly and rhythmically. [Roberton Publications, personal information; Derek Cooper, "The Road to Mingulay: a View of the Western Isles", London, 1985] (Buxton, Mingulay: an Island and Its People, pp 33, 47f., )'

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 08:54 AM

I find it very hard to credit the assertion that Hugh Roberton “chose the romantic name Mingulay”. There are references in 19th century records, albeit slightly different spelling (no u):
Mingala in Francis Broome’s Ordnance Gazetteer of Scotland in 1882-84, and
Mingalay Island in John Bartholomew’s Gazetteer of the British Isles 1887.
The rest is correct re the Gaelic and Norse origins and the lyrics of the song.

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 10:28 AM

Roberton no doubt "chose the romantic name Mingulay."

He could have sent his imaginary boat anywhere.

But he felicitously chose to send it to Mingulay.

Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song's Minch ???
From: Mysha
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 10:50 AM

Hi,

Ok, I ignored the Mickel Isle possibility mostly as I don't see what is so Mickel about it. But if others came up with it anyway: Why is that tiny island near the south end of the Hebrides called "big" (or "many")?

Bye
Mysha