Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants

Subject: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 16 - 04:18 PM

This is an edited PermaThread®, used for a special project. This thread will be moderated. Feel free to post to this thread, but remember that all messages posted here are subject to editing or deletion.
-Joe Offer-

Hi,

About two days ago I started a ballad study of the "Died for Love" ballads. I need your help to try and sift through the myriad versions and variants.

I'll start with a few questions that I have.

1) Do you know of any Irish versions or broadsides of "Rambling Boy"?

2) Is there an older version of "Sheffield Park" online- that dates to the 1700s?

3) What are some early versions (pre-1700s) of "Died for Love" and what is the origin (first source and date) of this last stanza?

from The Treasury of Musick-Lawes 1669:

Last, build my tomb of lovers' bones,
Set round about with marble-stones,
My Scutcheon bearing Venus Dove,
My epitaph, I died for love.

4) What is the earliest "Brisk Young Sailor" version? other "brisk Young" versions?

5) What is source of late 1700s, "Answer to the Rambling Boy"?

6) Does anyone have or can find "The cruel father, or, deceived maid"
or "A squire's daughter" both apparently begin "A squire's daughter near Aclecloy."

7. What are different spelling for "Aclecloy" ?

8. When did alehouse (tavern) become added and what version was it added to?

Thank you in advance, I'll post some of the basic versions.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 16 - 04:33 PM

Hi,

Here's one branch of the tree:

"Brisk Young Sailor" (broadside) as printed in Axon Ballads No. 55
Washington, printer; Mancester.

A brisk young sailor courted me,
He stole away my liberty,
He stole my heart with a free good will,
I must confess I love him still.
Down in the meadows she did run,
A gathering flowers as they sprung,
Every sort she gave a pull,
Till she had gathered her apron full.

When first I wore my apron low,
He followed me through frost and snow,
But now my apron is up to my chin,
He passes by and says nothing.
There is an alehouse in this town,
Where my love goes and sits him down,
He takes another girl on his knee,
Why is not that a grief to me.

Ah, griev'd I am, I'll tell you why,
Because she has more gold than I,
Her gold will waste, her beauty blast,
Poor girl she'll come like me at last,
I wish my baby it was born,
Set smiling on its father's knee,
And I was dead and in my grave,
And green grass growing over me.

There is a bird all in yonder tree,
Some say 'tis blind, and cannot see,
I wish it had been the same by me,
Before I had gained my love's company,
There is a man on yonder hill,
He has a heart as hard as steel,
He has two hearts instead of one,
He'll be a rogue when I am gone.

But when they found her corpse was cold,
They went to her false love and told,
I am glad says he, she has done so well,
I long to hear her funeral knell,
In Abraham's bosom she does sleep,
While his tormenting soul must weep,
He often wished his time o'er again,
That his bride he might make her merry & marry her soon.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 16 - 04:37 PM

Hi,

Here's another branch:

Sheffield Park

IN Sheffield park, O there did dwell,
A brisk young lad, I lov'd him well,
He courted me my heart to gain,
He is gone and left me full of pain.

I went up stairs to make the bed,
I laid me down and nothing said,
My mistress came and to me said,
What is the matter with you my maid.

O mistress, mistress you little know,
The pain and sorrow I undergo,
Its put your hand on my left breast,
My panting heart can take no rest.

My mistress away from me did go,
Some help, some help I will have for you,
No help, no help, no help I crave,
Sweet William brought me to the grave.

So take this letter to him with speed,
And give it to him if he can read,
And bring me an answer without delay,
For he has stole my heart away.

She took the letter immediately,
He read it over while she stood by.
And soon he did the letter burn,
Leaving this maid to make her mourn.

How can she think how fond I'd be,
That I could fancy none but she,
Man was not made for one alone,
I take delight to hear her mourn.

Then she return'd immediately,
And found her maid as cold as clay;
Beware young maids don't love in vain,
For love has broke her heart in twain.

She gather'd the green grass for her bed,
And a flowery pillow for her head,
The leaves that blow from tree to tree,
Shall be a covering over thee.

O cruel man, I find thou art,
For breaking my own child's heart,
Now she in Abraham's bosom sleep,
While thy tormented soul shall weep.

Pitts, Printer, wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse
6, Gt. St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials. (c. 1820s)

Image: Vignette wood engraving showing lovers standing and holding hands, before a tree and cottage to the left (birds on the ground in the foreground), and a sailboat on water to the right in the background.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 16 - 04:55 PM

Hi,

This is a more modern version of 3rd branch. Here are the first seven stanzas of this print (see Bodleian for last two) the suicide (hard to read) is next:

The Rambling Boy- Pitts broadside

1. I am a wild and a rambling boy,
My lodgings are in the Isle of Cloy,
A wild and a rambling boy I be,
I'll forsake them all and follow thee.

2. O Billy! Billy! I love you well,
I love you better than tongue can tell
I love you well but dare not shew,
To you my dear let no one know.

3. I wish I was a blackbird or thrush,
Changing my notes from bush to bush,
That all the world might plainly see,
I lov'd a man that lov'd not me,

4. I wish I was a little fly,
That on his bosom I might lie.
And all the people fast asleep,
Into my lover's arms I'd softly creep.

5. I love my father I love my mother,
I love my sisters and my brothers
I love my friends and relations too,
I would forsake them all to go with you

7. My father left me house and land,
Bid me use it at my command;
But at my command they shall I never be;
I'll forsake them all love and go with thee.

Anyone with additional versions or comments?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Dec 16 - 05:13 PM

A whole bunch of early versions heading your way soon, Richie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 16 - 05:17 PM

Hi,

Here are the last two stanzas of Rambling Boy- it could read it but two other versions appear similarly:

8. Her father he came home that night
And asking for his heart's delight.
He went up stairs, the door he broke.
He found her hanging in a rope.

9. He took a knife and cut her down,
And in her bosom these lines he found:
Dig me a grave both wide and deep.
And a marble stone to cover it.

Apparently these are the later broadsides. No rhyme in the last line of last stanza :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 16 - 05:27 PM

OK Steve!!!

Here's one more branch the north American branch where it also appears as a cowboy song:

Text from a broadside by Henry J. Wehman, Song Publisher, No. 50 Chatham Street, New York City.

The Butcher Boy.

In Jersey City, where I did dwell,
A butcher-boy I loved so well,
He courted me my heart away,
And now with me he will not stay.
There is an inn in the same town,
Where my love goes and sits him down;
He takes a strange girl on his knee,
And tells to her what he don't tell me.

It's a grief for me; I'll tell you why:
Because she has more gold than I;
But her gold will melt, and her silver fly;
In time of need, she'll be poor as I.
I go up-stairs to make my bed,
But nothing to my mother said;
My mother comes up-stairs, to me
Saying "What's the matter, my daughter dear?"

"Oh! mother, mother! you do not know
What grief, and pain, and sorrow, woe—
Go get a chair to sit me down,
And a pen and ink to write it down."
On every line she dropped a tear,
While calling home her Willie dear;
And when her father he came home,
He said, "Where is my daughter gone?"

He went up-stairs, the door he broke—
He found her hanging upon a rope—
He took his knife and he cut her down,
And in her breast those lines were found:
"Oh! what a silly maid am I!
To hang myself for a butcher-boy!
Go dig my grave, both long and deep;
Place a marble-stone at my head and feet,
And on my breast a turtle dove,
To show the world I died for love!"

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Dec 16 - 06:38 PM

Here's an interesting question, Richie. how influential was that Wehman printing and how many versions predate it?

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 16 - 07:46 PM

Hi,

Off the top of my head,

Kittredge reported 5 print versions in the 1800s- this was one of them dated about 1880s. I have a copy of the broadside which I'll eventually post, Wehman reprinted this in the early 1900s.

There's a circa 1860 print from New York in the Bodleian and I've seen one more US early print.

So to answer your question, I'd say four print versions in the US predated it. As far as it's influence- there are many version that begin with "In Jersey City" but also many that slightly change the name.

I just like the "an inn in" part - There was an inn in. . . sinmg that a couple times.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 12:19 AM

Hi,

There are several print version from the 1700s. This is from the "I Wish, I wish" branch.

The Effects of Love - A New Song; London (no imprint), c. 1780:

    O! Love is hot, and Love is cold,
    And love is dearer than any gold;
    And love is dearer than any thing,
    Unto my grave it will me bring.

    O when my apron it hung low,
    He followed me thro' frost and snow;
    But now I am with-child by him,
    He passes by and says nothing.

    I wish that I had ne'er been born,
    Since love has proved my downfall;
    He takes a stranger on his knee,
    And is this not a grief to me.

    I wish that my dear babe was born,
    And dandled on its daddy's knee,
    And I in the cold grave did lie,
    And the green grass grew over me.

    Ye Christmas winds when will ye blow;
    And blow the green leaves off the tree,
    O, gentle Death, when will you call,
    For of my life I am quite weary.

    Unloose those chains love, and set me free
    And let me at liberty;
    For was you hear (sic) instead of me,
    I'd unloose you love, and set you free.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 01:36 AM

Hi,

A number of ballads have been collected from the "I wish" branch. The The Bishoprick Garland (1834) have a number of I Wish stanzas under "The Pitman's Love Song":

I wish my love she was a grey Ewe,
Grazing by yonder river side;
And aw mysel a bonny black Tup,
By that Ewe's side aw always would bide.

Some stanzas have been associated with "Water Is Wide."

A version from A. L. Lloyd was published in Come all ye bold miners: ballads and songs of the coalfields (1978).

Aw wish my lover she was a cherry,
Growing upon yon cherry tree,
And aw mysel a bonny blackbird;
How aw would peck that cherry cherree.

A standard "I Wish" text would be Percy Grainger's collected in 1906 or the following version:

I WISH, I WISH- Sung by Mrs C. Costello, Birmingham (M.S. and P.S.-S.1951) Mrs. Cecilia Costello sang it on Leader LEE 4054.

I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain,
I wish I were a maid again;
But a maid again I never shall be
Till apples grow on an orange tree.

I wish my baby it was born,
And smiling on its papa's knee,
And I to be in yon churchyard,
With long green grass growing over me.

When my apron-strings hung low,
He followed me through frost and snow,
But now my apron's to my chin,
He passes by and says nothing.

Oh grief, oh grief, I'll tell you why -
That girl has more gold than I;
More gold than I and beauty and fame,
But she will come like me again.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 02:48 PM

Hi,

This is one of the broadsides sent by Steve Gardham- thanks Steve. It's part of the "Brisk Young Sailor group" and has one "I wish" stanza.

"A New Song Call'd the Distress'd Maid" London, (no imprint) in the Madden Collection, Cambridge University Library (Slip Songs H-N no. 1337) c.1785.

A brisk young Sailor courted me,
He stole away my liberty;
He stole my heart with a free good will,
He has it now, and he'll keep it still.

When first i kept my belly low,
He would follow me thro' frost and snow;
But now my apron is to my chin,
He passes by and says nothing.

There is a ale-house in yonders town
My love goes in and sits him down.
He takes a stranger to his knee.
Which is a most sad grief to me.

In Cupid's chains I am fast bounwnd
No one can loose me but my love;
It's O come loose me and set me free
And set me at my liberty.

There is a man under yonder hill
A heart he has is hard as steel,
Two hearts he has instead of one
he will be a rogue when I am gone.

I wish my pretty babe was born
And smiling in his Daddy's arms
My soul to God my body to clay,
Then all my sorrows fled away.

This is different than the "Distressed Maid" ballads which Steve wrote an article online.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 03:05 PM

Hi,

Here's The Rambling Boy from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; printed 1799 and 1803. It also has "Answer to Rambling Boy" which I'll post separately. See also "An Excellent Garland" Manchester printed by G. Swindells dated 1800. This version is much older (some prints date c. 1750) and better than the Pitts version posted earlier.


THE RAMBLING BOY.

I am a rake and a rambling boy.
I'm lately come from Auchnacloy;
A rambling boy although I be,
I'll forsake them all and go with thee.

My father promis'd me houses and land.
If I would be at his command;
At his command, love, I ne'er will be ;
I'll forsake them all love and go with thee.

For houses and land they are but a plot,
Houses and land I do value not;
For houses and garden I will provide,
And have my darling down by my side.

Well doth he know I can shape and few,
Well doth he know I can bake and brew,
I can wash his linen and dress them fine.
And yet lie's gone and left me behind.

O Willie Baillie ye told me lies,
You'd build me castles up to the skies,
And every river should have a brigg,
And every finger a fine gold ring.

O Billy, Billy, I love thee well,
I love thee better than tongue can tell,
I love thee well though I dare not show it,
My dearest dear, let no man know it.

I wish I were a black-bird or thrush,
Singing my notes from bush to bush;
That all the world might plainly fee,
I lov'd a man, and he lov'd not me.

Or was I, but a silly fly,
In my love's bosom then would I lie.
When all the world was fall asleep,
In my love's bosom then would I creep.

My love he came late in the night,
Seeking for his sweet-heart's delight;
He ran up stairs, the door he broke,
And found his love all in a rope.

Then he went up and cut her down,
And in her bosom a note was found,
Wrote in shining letters to bright,
Enough a mortal's heart to break.

"Go dig my grave both wide and deep,
And cover it with a marble stone;
And in the middle a turtle dove,
To show the world that I dy'd for love."

Tis not for gold that I lie here,
Nor yet for jewels, know my dear;
But it is for that sweet Irish boy,
That has caused my sad destiny.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 05:54 PM

From Hamish Henderson's "Ballads of World War II":

Now all you maidens sweet and kind,
Just bear in mind a soldier's love is hard to find.
So when you've found one good and true,
Don't change the old love for a new.

She was a maiden sweet and kind,
Brought up in high society;
A soldier in this battery
Came and stole that girl way from me.

Her father came home late on night,
And found his house without a light;
He went upstairs to go to bed,
When a certain thought came in his head.

He went into his daughter's room,
And found her hanging from a beam;
He took a knife to cut her down,
And on her breast these words he found:

My love is for a soldier boy,
Who's gone across the deep blue sea.
I often seem to think of him,
But he never seems to think of me.

I wish my baby could be born,
Then all my troubles would be gone,
But dig my grave and dig it deep,
And place white lilies at my feet.

(Repeat stanza 1.)


[Punctuation added, line 2 re-spaced.]

Henderson titles this "An R.A. [Regular Army] Ballad." He notes that it was "much sung, especially in the earlier years of the war."

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 06:00 PM

Recorded (almost) verbatim on Ewan MacColl's "Bless 'em All and Other British Army Songs" (Riverside, ?1957). He calls it "All You Maidens Sweet and Kind."

Henderson doesn't provide a tune.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 07:41 PM

As this song didn't appear until the end of WWI I think it is based on Butcher Boy and was brought over by US soldiers. It certainly featured strongly in Sod's Operas over here in WWII,

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 08:00 PM

Hi, Steve. Offhand I don't recognize the tune as American.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 10:06 PM

Hi Lighter,

There are 21 posts many similar to the version you posted here: http://able2know.org/topic/52-2 Here's one:

I dont know who wrote it, but the original lyrics of this song were sung to me by my welsh father when i was little. We still laugh about how he sang songs about a woman hanging herself to his young uns, but at the time we were transfixed...

The words (which he learnt while in the army (WWII) are as follows:

A miner came from work one night
And found his house without a light
He went upstairs to go to bed
When a sudden thought came to his head

He went into his daughter's room
And found her hanging from a beam
He took his knife and cut her down
And on her breast these words he found

Oh Lord I wish my child was born
And all my troubles they were gone
So dig my grave and dig it deep
And plant white lilies at my feet

They dug her grave and dug it deep
And planted lilies at her feet
And now she lies deep underground
Where love is lost and never found

So all you maidens bear in mind
A soldiers heart is hard to find
So if you find one good and true
Don't change the old one for a new

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 10:19 PM

Hi,

Thought I'd post my favorite version of "Love Has Brought Me To Despair," Laws P25. I've come to the conclusion that this and the other versions are based on, or similar to, a broadside that Ebsworth calls "Oxfordshire Tragedy." It's in two parts but the first part (The Constant Lady and false-hearted Squire; Being a Relation of a Knight's Daughter near Woodstock Town in Oxfordshire) has these opening stanzas:

Near Woodstock town in Oxfordshire,
as I walk'd forth to take the air,
To view the fields and meadowa round,
methought I heard a mournful sound. [This was included in the first ballad Steve emailed me)

Down by a crystal river side, a gallant Bower I espied,
Where a fair Lady made great moan, with many a bitter sigh and groan.

"Alas!" (quoth she), "my Love's unkind;
my sighs and tears he will not mind;
But he is cruel unto me,
which causes all my misery.

"My Father is a worthy Knight,
my Mother is a Lady bright;
And I their only child and heir:
yet Love has brought me to despair. [and also]

The Lady round the meadow run,
and gather'd flowers as they sprung;
Of every sort she there did pull,
until she got her apron full.

"Now there's a flower," she did say,
"is named Heart's-ease, night and day;
I wish I could that flower find,
for to ease my love-sick mind.

"But oh, alas! 'tis all in vain
for me to sigh and to complain;
There 's nothing that can ease my smart,
for his disdain will break my heart."

The green ground served as a bed, and flowers,
a pillow for her head;
She laid her down, and nothing spoke:
alas! for love her heart was broke.

* * * *

LOVE HAS BROUGHT ME TO DESPAIR (sung by Berzilla Wallin c.1963, my transcription)

My father he was a rich old jay
My mother she was a lady fair
And me a-bein' the only heir
So love has brought me to despair.

It's when I wore my long silk gown
He follered me from town to town
But now my apron just won't tie
He passes my door and he won't stop in

There is a street in yonders town
Where my true love walks up and down
He takes another girl on his knee,
And tells to her what he won't tell me,
He takes another girl on his knee,
Oh ain't awful grief to me

There is some flowers I've heard them say,
That' would cure false love both night and day
And of these flowers I did pull,
Until I got my apron full.

I gathered black, I gathered blue,
But none of these flowers could I find;
That would cure false love
Or ease my mind.

It's out of these leaves I made a bed
And out of the flowers a pillow for my head
It's down she lay and nary word spoke,
Until her achin' heart was broke,
And in green meadows 'round
I thought I heard some doleful sound.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 10:51 PM

Hi,

By the way Steve, the first ballad you emailed "The Lady's Lamentation" is called a sequel and after the 4th stanza with some variation becomes "Oxfordshire Tragedy." I'll post that later.

Ebworth dates "Oxfordshire Tragedy," white letter, as c.1686. Apparently there's a similar version in Timothy O'Connor MS Songbook c1778 "In Woodstock Town" ("in Oxford shore") but I don't have access to that. Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 23 Dec 16 - 12:14 AM

Hi,

Here's the first broadside Steve emailed me. It's mixed with Oxfordshire Tragedy c. 1686 (after stanza 4) and was called a sequel to Oxfordhire by Ebsworth.

The Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her Sweetheart; Manchester Central library; c.1775.

1. A brisk young lad came courting me,
He stole away my liberty;
He stole my heart with a free good will,
He has it now, and he'll keep it still.

2. But when my belly it was low,
He followed me thro' frost and snow;
But now my apron's up to my chin
My love passes by and says nothing.

3. There is a ale-house in yonder town
Where oft my love sits him down.
He takes a stranger to his knee.
Which makes me sigh in misery.

4. He takes a stranger, I know for why,
Because she hath more gold than I;
Her gold will waste, and her beauty blast,
And she will become like me at last.

5. In Woodstock town in Oxfordshire,
As I went forth to take the air,
To view the fields and meadows 'round,
I though I heard a doleful sound.

6. Down by a crystal river side,
A gallant bower I espy'd,
And there was in it all alone
A fair Lady making great moan.

7. "Alas!" said she, my Love's unkind,
My sighs and tears he will not mind;
He is so cruel unto me,
Which causes all my misery.

8. "My Father is a worthy Knight,
My Mother is a lady bright;
And I a child and only heir,
And love has brought me to despair.

9. There is a flower as I've heard say,
I wish I could that flower find,
It would ease my heart,
And cure my mind.

10. Then round the meadows she did run,
And gather'd flowers as they sprung;
Of every sort she gathered some,
Till she got her apron full.

11. But when I found her corpse was cold,
They went to her false love, and told
What to this fair maid's chance befel,
I'm glad," said he, that she's so well.

12. What did she think I so fond could be,
That I could fancy none but she;
Man was not made for one alone,
I took delight to hear her moan.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 23 Dec 16 - 10:14 AM

Hi,

Here's a link to Berzilla's "Love has Brought me to Despair" which she sang when she was in her 70s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey6_HnqnodU

Berzilla Chandler Wallin (1892- 1986) was a member of a family of renowned "Shelton Laurel" ballad singers in Madison County, North Carolina. Berzilla, who was there when Sharp collected ballads in 1916, was the sister of ballad singers Lloyd Chandler and Dellie Chandler Norton, and a cousin of Dillard Chandler.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 24 Dec 16 - 10:03 AM

Hi,

Here's a tidbit of information about title, The Isle of Cloy (Roud 23272, see question 6 above):

   E.J. Moeran collected The Isle of Cloy in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. A.L. Lloyd sang this song in 1956 on his Tradition album The Foggy Dew and Other Traditional English Love Songs:

"It's of a lady in the Isle of Cloy"

It also appears in the Pitts Broadside (above) Rambling Boy:

"My lodgings are in the Isle of Cloy,"

In Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths by Roger Dev Renwick he says, Isle of Cloy is "not found in any official British place names [and hence may be a folk name]"

Notice the slight change in The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid-- Madden Collection:

"A squire's daughter near Aclecloy."

to the accurate place name in a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow:

"I'm lately come from Auchnacloy;"

Auchnacloy is an archaic spelling (meaning "field of the stone") for Aughnacloy, County Tyrone in Northern Ireland.

Isle of Cloy= Aclecloy= Auchnacloy

The folk process!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 24 Dec 16 - 04:13 PM

Hi,

It should be pointed out that "Rambling Boy" (sent to sea- dies of a cannonball) from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799 as well as "Answer to Rambling Boy" and "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790 are completely different ballads from Brisk Young Sailor and all the rest. They have almost nothing in common with Butcher Boy.

Cox said in 1925 that "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid" was one of 4 ballads that make up Butcher Boy- this is also not accurate- the only commonality is the suicide and last stanza.

The "new" ballad "O Willie" that Roger Dev Renwick writes about in his chapter, 'Oh, Willie': An Unrecognized Anglo-American Ballad, is the old 1700s ballad 'Cruel Father/Rambling Boy,' whose variants were mixed with Butcher Boy variants in collections. Renwick fails to identify the original sources of his "new" ballad and why they were not correctly identified. He does show the differences and identifies some versions in various collections.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 24 Dec 16 - 04:22 PM

Hi,

It should be pointed out that "Rambling Boy" is not the Pitts broadside of c.1820 (see above) which begins, "I am a wild and rambling boy." The Pitts broadside, a completely different ballad, resembles more closely the "Brisk Young Sailor" ballads and has random generic stanzas from the "Died for Love" ballads.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 24 Dec 16 - 05:01 PM

Hi,

To be fair to Cox although Cruel Father/Rambling Boy is a different ballad it does have the suicide and ending stanza. And he didn't say the rest of the ballad was similar.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 24 Dec 16 - 05:13 PM

Hi,

This is what Cox stated in his 1925 Folk-Songs of the South: "The Butcher Boy" is made up of modified extracts from (1) "Sheffield Park"; (2) "The Squire's Daughter" (called also "The Cruel Father, or, Deceived Maid"); (3) "A Brisk Young Sailor" (or its abbreviated version, "There is an alehouse in yonder town"); and (4) "Sweet William" ("The Sailor Boy").

Randolph endorsed it in Ozark Folksongs.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 07:02 AM

> This is what Cox stated in his 1925 Folk-Songs of the South: "The Butcher Boy" is made up of modified extracts from (1) "Sheffield Park"; (etc)

It seems to me that all of these songs are mix-and-match combinations of a whole load of floating elements, including some narrative ones (such as the courtship, and the father finding the girl hanging) and others with no narrative aspect (such as "There is a bird ...").

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 01:58 PM

Merry Christmas!!!

Here's a version of the Cruel Father/Rambling Boy branch:

The Squire's Daughter (Broadside by W. Shelmerdine, Manchester c1800). Original spelling preserved.

A squire's daughter near Auchen Coley,
Fell in [love] with a servant boy,
When her father came to hear,
He parted her from her dearest dear.

He anguish to increase the more,
Sent her love where the cannons roar,
To act the part of a gallant tar,
On board the Terrible man of war.

The ship was scarce three months at sea,
Till she fell in with a bloody frea.
It was the poor lad's lot to fall,
When he lost his life by a cannon ball.

The very night this young man was slain,
His ghost unto her father came,
With grievous groans by the bed he stood,
His neck and breast were smear'd with blood.

His father seeing this sad sight
He lay trembling with the fright
Being almost ready to die with fear
Till the grim ghost did disappear

The lady hearing this sad news
Her sense full surely it did confuse
That very night on a beam of oak,
She hanged herself with her own bed rope.

He went upstairs and cut her down
And in her breast a note was found.
And it is written as you see,
Cruel father you have ruined me.

Cruel father the worst of all men
You have brought me to this sad end,
You sent my love where cannons roar,
Which prov'd his death and overthrow.

Now since it's so my love is slain
And buried deep in the watery main,
Adieu false world my leave I'll take,
I'll die a maid for my true love's sake.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 04:18 PM

What's a bed rope?

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 06:14 PM

Hi,

Early beds used hemp or linen rope that was stretched over the bed frame which supported the mattress. They are called rope beds.

Not sure is this was the rope used which would be a bed rope or if it was a rope for the canopy.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 26 Dec 16 - 09:56 AM

Hi,

A couple questions. What is the source of this stanza in Amy Birch's version? Where did she learn her version and why is it sometimes titled "Up the Green Meadows"?

There is a flower I have heard people say
They grow by night and fade by day
Now if that flower I could find
It would cure my heart and ease my mind

Why is "Deceased Maiden Lover" listed as a version of the Died for Love songs in Sam Henry's Songs of the People?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 26 Dec 16 - 08:41 PM

Hi,

[Here's Deceased Maiden Lover which a Sam Henry's Songs of the People editor lists a version of Died For Love. It's in quatrain form with a two line chorus. I believe it's by lutenist Robert Johnson (c1583–1633)- does anyone know?]

"The Deceased Maiden Lover," to the tune 'Bonny Nell,' attributed to lutenist Robert Johnson (c1583–1633); published in Playford's Ayres and Dialogues, fol. 1652.

Being a pleasant new Court-Song: to an excellent
new tune. Or to be sung to the tune of Bonny Nell

AS I went forth one Summers day,
To view the Meddowes fresh & gay
A pleasant Bower I espide,
Standing hard by a River side:
And int a Maiden I heard cry,
Alas theres none ere lovd like I.

I couched close to heare her mone,
With many a sigh and heavie grone,
And wisht that I had been the might
That might have bred her hearts delight
But these were all the words that she
Did still repeate, none loves like me.

Then round the Meddowes did she walke
Catching each Flower by the stalke,
Such as within the Meddowes grew,
As Dead-mans-thumb & Hare-bel blew
And as she pluckt them, still crid she
Alas theres none ere lovd like me.

A Bed therein she made to lie,
Of fine greene things that grew fast by,
Of Poplers and of Willow leaves,
Of Sicamore and flaggy sheaves:
And as she pluckt them still crid she,
Alas theres none ere loud like mee.

The little Larke-foot, sheed not passe,
Nor yet the flouers of Three leavd grasse
With Milkmaids Hunny-suckles phrase
The Crows-foot, nor the yellow Crayse,
And as she pluckt them still cride she,
Alas theres none ere lovd like me.

The pretty Daisie which doth show
Her love to phoebus bred her woe,
Who joyes to see his chearefull face,
And mournes when he is not in place.
Alacke, alacke, alacke, quoth she
Theres none that ever loves like me.

The flowers of the sweetest scent,
She bound them round with knotted Bent
And as she laid them still in bands,
She wept she waild, and wrung her hands
Alas, alas, alas, quoth she.
Theres none that ever lovd like me.

False man (quoth she) forgive thee heaven
As I do with my sinnes forgiven:
In blest El[i]zium I shall sleep,
when thou with pe[j]urd soule shalt weepe:
Who when they lived did like to thee,
That lovd there loves as thou dost me.

When shee had fild her apron full
Of such sweet flowers as she could cull,
The green Leaves servd her for her Bed
The Flowers pillowes for her head.
then down she lay, nere more did speak
alas with love her heart did breake.

FINIS.
Printed by the Assignes of Thomas Symcocke.

Additional I realized I had confused "Rambling Boy" with "Answer to Rambling Boy earlier in this thread--mea culpa-- both were published in a Scottish chapbook by Robertson in 1799. "Rambling Boy" is of the Brisk Young Sailor branch and is different than "Answer To Rambling Boy." The three versions where the cruel father sends him to sea appear on my web-site as:

B. The Cruel Father (sent to sea- dies of a cannonball)
   a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790.
   b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799.
   c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 26 Dec 16 - 09:09 PM

Hi,

"The Deceased Maiden Lover" is an earlier theme of a broadside that Ebsworth calls "Oxfordshire Tragedy." The title is The Constant Lady and false-hearted Squire; Being a Relation of a Knight's Daughter near Woodstock Town in Oxfordshire).


In "The Deceased Maiden Lover" a maiden whose heart has been mortally wounded by a "False man" wanders about picking flowers and herbs for her death bed-- she cries "Alas there's none ere lov'd like me!"

When shee had fild her apron full
Of such sweet flowers as she could cull,
The green Leaves servd her for her Bed
The Flowers pillowes for her head.

In The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire the maid performs a similar task:

The Lady round the meadow run,
and gather'd flowers as they sprung;
Of every sort she there did pull,
until she got her apron full.

"Now there's a flower," she did say,
"is named Heart's-ease, night and day;
I wish I could that flower find,
for to ease my love-sick mind.

"But oh, alas! 'tis all in vain
for me to sigh and to complain;
There 's nothing that can ease my smart,
for his disdain will break my heart."

The green ground served as a bed, and flowers,
a pillow for her head;
She laid her down, and nothing spoke:
alas! for love her heart was broke.

Stanzas from "The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire" appear in the "Died For Love" Songs and "Constant Lady" is the basis for "Love Has Brought me to Despair" and a stanza is also found in the related "Sailor Boy."

I'm not sure I see a close connection between "Died For Love" and Deceased Maiden Lover." Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 04:45 AM

A variation of one of the few versions of a song already mentioned.

A SAILORS LEAVE

A sailor, coming home on leave,
Did find his house without a light.
He crept up to his daughters room,
And found her hanging from a beam.

So he got his knife and cut her down,
And on her breast these words he found.
I loved a sailor, loved him true,
Oh see what true love can do.

Oh father do not weep for me,
He was a sailor young and free.
He took me down a shady lane,
Now for his love I die in vain.

Oh dig my grave go dig it deep,
And place white lilies at my feet.
And at my head go place a dove,
To show that I have died for love.

So I dug her grave I dug it deep,
I placed white lilies at her feet.
And at her head I placed a dove,
To show that she had died for love.

Now all you maidens bear in mind,
A good mans love is hard to find.
So if you find one good and true,
Don't trade the old love for the new.

Used to sing this acapella at Folk clubs in the 1970's

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 10:34 AM

Hi Richie,
Others might find it easier to follow if you clearly separated the different autonomous laments that now have separate Roud numbers. Most scholars now use Roud numbers for clarity. Or you could use my Master Titles which I sent you.

I did warn you it might drive you mad!

I'll come back into the fray when I can get regular access to my computer.

Some streams are not directly related to each other but share common stock from older versions.


You might try to get hold of a different approach from the 1980s, championed by Indiana Uni. A book I've just acquired called ironically 'Narrative Folksong: New Directions. ed. Edwards & Manley, p59, Green Grows the Laurel. Whole book essential reading. Wish I'd had it earlier.

Happy New Year,
Steve

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 10:39 AM

Jon,
I'm no expert on tune relatives but it seems to me the English 'Died for Love' Roud 18828, is basically the same tune as the American 'Blue-eyed Boy' Roud 18831. and there is some slight cross-over of text. It has the ring of Vaudeville about it, quite unfolklike.

It is one of my family songs by the way. Both my Uncle and my sister sang versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 03:50 PM

Just found this on Youtube... the same tune I used to sing it....
    A sailor coming home on leave.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 03:53 PM

A sailor coming home on leave.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 06:40 PM

Hi,

Thanks Georgiansilver for the text and the link.

Steve, I'll start using Roud numbers I get confused because even though they are improved- I'm not sure if they are right for certain versions. I was looking at Beam of Oak- as an example.

I'll look at the book, Narrative Folksong. Please send me more broadsides if you have them and the Greig-Duncan versions.

I'm starting to get the branches sorted out. This is what I have so far:

A. Died for Love
   a. "The Effects of Love- A New Song," (broadside) London c. 1780:

B. The Cruel Father (sent to sea- dies of a cannonball)
   a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790.
   b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799.
   c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800
   d. "Sweet William," as written down about July 1, 1915, by Miss Mae Smith of Sugar Grove, Watauga county, from the singing of her stepmother, Mrs. Mary Smith, who learned it over forty years ago. submitted by Thomas Smith, Brown Collection, c.1875.
   e. "Rambling Boy" Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax 1916 edition.
   f. "The Wrecked and Rambling Boy" from Mrs. Audrey Hellums, Tishomingo, Mississippi. Hudson C, 1926
   g. "Oh Willie" from Mary Lou Bell of Staunton Virginia; 1932
   h. "The Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe.
   i. "Black Birds.' Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Allegheny Couny, NC, 1938
   j. "Oh Willie" sung by Rod Drake of Silsbee Texas; See Owens, 1952.
   k. "Rude and Rambling Boy," Buna Hicks Sugar Grove, NC , 1966.

C. Brisk Young Sailor
   a. "The Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her Sweetheart," from the Manchester Central library; c.1775. It is mixed with Oxfordshire Tragedy c. 1686 (after stanza 4) and called a sequel to Oxfordhire by Ebsworth.
   b. "A New Song Call'd the Distress'd Maid," London, (no imprint) in the Madden Collection Cambridge University Library (Slip Songs H-N no. 1337) c.1785.
   c. "Rambling Boy," from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799.
   d. "Brisk Young Sailor," broadside by W. Pratt, Printer, 82, Digbeth, Birmingham; c.1850
   e. "Died For Love" (A bold young farmer) Isla Cameron

D. Sheffield Park (In Sheffield Park there did live and dwell)
a. "The Young Man of Sheffield Park." Printed and sold by J. Jennings, No. 15, Water lane, Fleet street London; c. 1790.
b. "The Young Man of Sheffield Park" printed by Evans of 42 Long Lane, London, c1794.
c. "Sheffield Park" Pitts, Printer, wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse 6, Gt. St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials; London, c. 1820.
d. "The Unfortunate Maid of Sheffield," Holroyd's Collection of Yorkshire Ballads by Abraham Holroyd, 1892.
e. "In Yorkshire Park" sung by Robert Barratt at Puddletown, 1905.
f. "In Sheffield Park" Miss E. King of Castle Eaton, Wiltshire; collected Alfred Williams, 1916.
g. "In Sheffield Park," sung by Enos White with his wife- collected by Bob Copper in Axford, Hampshire about 1954.
h. "Sheffield Park," sung by Frank Hinchliffe, recorded by Mike Yates and Ruairidh Greig in 1976.

E. Butcher Boy ("In Jersey city where I did dwell")
   a. "The Butcher Boy." broadside [Philadelphia] : J.H. Johnson, song publisher, 7 N. Tenth St., Philadelphia., c. 1860
   b. "The Butcher Boy," broadside from H. De Marsan (New York), 1861-1864 Bodleian, Harding B 18(72) c. 1860
   c. "The Butcher Boy of Baltimore," words and music by Harry Tofflin. "Wm. J. Schmidt, 2507 W. North Ave. NY c. 1865
   d. "The Butcher Boy." Broadside by Henry J. Wehman, Song Publisher, No. 50 Chatham Street, New York City; c.1890.

I haven't put many of the traditional versions on- plus several broadsides that don't fit A-E,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 08:41 PM

Ok Steve here's an example, "Beam of Oak" Roud 18830 this is according to Traditional Ballad Index which has:

Beam of Oak (Rambling Boy, Oh Willie)

DESCRIPTION: A farmer's daughter loves a servant man. Her father has him sent to sea. He is killed in battle. His ghost visits the father. The daughter hears about it. She hangs herself. Father finds her hanging. Her note blames the father, who goes mad
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1910 (Lomax, Cowboy Songs)
KEYWORDS: battle navy death suicide father lover ghost
FOUND IN: Canada(Newf) US(SE,So)
REFERENCES (7 citations):
Leach-Labrador 15, "Beam of Oak" (1 text, 1 tune)
MHenry-Appalachians, pp. 173-174, "I Am A Rambling Rowdy Boy" (1 text, short enough that it might be a "Butcher Boy" version, but the first verse tentatively puts it here)
Warner 86, "A Rude and Rambling Boy" (1 text, 1 tune)
Owens-2ed, pp. 61-62, "Oh, Willie" (1 text, 1 tune)
BrownII 81, "The Butcher Boy" (6 texts plus 5 excerpts and mention of 3 others; although most are clearly Laws P24, Renwick believes the "M" text is "Beam of Oak (Rambling Boy, Oh Willie)")
Darling-NAS, pp. 106-107, "The Rambling Boy" (1 text) {filed here based on the title}
ADDITIONAL: Renwick: Roger deV. Renwick, _Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths_, University Press of Mississippi, 2001, pp. 94-95, "Rambling Boy" (1 text, from Lomax's _Cowboy Songs_); also, on pp. 108-109, a broadside, "The Rambling Boy," from Pitts, which he considers to have influenced the song; p. 113, "(William, William, I Love You Well")" (1 text, of another related text)
ST LLab015 (Partial)
Roud #18830
BROADSIDES:
cf. Bodleian, Harding B 25(1597), "The Rambling Boy" ("I an a wild and rambling boy"), J. Pitts (London), 1802-1819 [barely legible]; also Harding B 11(4216), "The Rambling Boy," T. Birt, London, 1833-1841 [This is the related broadside cited by Renwick, not the true "Beam of Oak/Oh Willie" song]
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24] (theme)
cf. "The Isle of Cloy" (Roud #23272) (location in the "Isle of Cloy," mentioned in the Bodleian "Rambling Boy" broadsides)
NOTES: This is not "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24] in spite of the suicide by hanging, the father finding the body and the suicide note. Consider the differences: the lover is faithful, the father causes the separation, the lover is killed and his ghost returns, and the suicide note blames the father. - BS
Roud used to lump this with "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" [Laws P25], but this is a much more detailed song than that. At most, it might be the inspiration, but even that seems forced. The feeling seems very different -- more like "The Suffolk Miracle" than "The Butcher Boy." In more recent editions, Roud has moved it to #18830, a much more obscure song although related to "The Butcher Boy." It may be that he did this on the basis of Roger deV. Renwick, Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths, University Press of Mississippi, 2001. Renwick, pp. 92-115 is an essay, "'Oh, Willie': An Unrecognized Anglo-American Ballad," which makes a case for this song's independence. Roud's list of versions doesn't correspond precisely with van Renwick's. And the suicide at the end means that fragmentary versions can hardly be classified; readers should surely check both.
Renwick considers the family to include not just this song and "The Butcher Boy" but also "Love Has Brought Me to Despair," plus lyric pieces he calls "Deep in Love" and "Died for Love," which are almost beyond classification; "Waly Waly" is probably one of them.
The description of this version is based mostly on Leach. Renwick, pp. 100-101, notes the usual differences between this song and "The Butcher Boy": This is told from the man's point of view, it usually opens with him describing himself as some sort of rambler, and it continues with the man's fate after the girl's suicide. Also, the father threatens Willie, and the mother generally does not make an appearance in this song. He also says on p. 107 that it oftan the woman, not the man, who was unfaithful. In broad summary, Renwick calls this a song of Family Opposition to Lovers, whereas "The Butcher Boy" is a song about an unfaithful lover. Thus, in theme, the two are quite different; it is the suicide that pulls them together.- RBW

Out of Roud's 19 listings for 18830 only one of them is actually barely related to "lover sent to sea, dies by cannonball". Of course it doesn't help that Roger deV. Renwick doesn't know the source ballads or Traditional Ballad Index (author RBW).

Rambling Boy is not part of 18830 and only the "Rambling Boy" is "Answer to Rambling Boy" which is a different ballad than all the rambling boy ballads.

So I don't know 3 of the broadsides but by the opening line-- it looks like Roud 18830 is not the same ballad Traditional Ballad Index (author RBW) refers to.

So I'm confused about what is what. Further, "Beam of Oak" should refer to the beam of oak which the maid uses to hag herself. But no- that has nothing to do with the title and also the "Isle of Cloy" is a mishearing of Auchnacloy, which is in Ireland.

There is an excellent version of "Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. That version is not even mentioned.

This may be Traditional Ballad Index's doing- but Roud 18830 makes no sense either.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 08:54 PM

Hi Steve,

I do appreciate what Steve Roud has done-- very helpful-- and these "Died for Love" ballads are an example of how difficult categorizing ballads can be. The problem is two-fold:

1. Apparently no one really understands the source ballads-- at least in the example above.

2. The ballads are made up of multiple source ballads some of which use the same title for different ballads.

Just need more tweaking :) You have obviously been instrumental in breaking up Roud 60 and so we go.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 12:07 PM

Hi,

As an interesting "aside," I was listening to a 1935 Alan Lomax recording of Aunt Molly Jackson of Kentucky singing "Butcher's Boy":

http://lomaxky.omeka.net/items/show/59

She is sing Careless Love-- with the Butcher Boy text!!! The old female vocal of Careless Love with her apron low is another appendix of this large group of Died for love songs.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 01:19 PM

Hi,

If anyone has more versions, please post them, thanks Lighter and Georgiansilver.

I need help with version of this next small branch I've titled "Foolish Girl". It begins:

Oh what a foolish girl was I
To fall in love with an Irish boy/a sailor boy,

There's a version online from Shetland isles that you can listen here:

http://www.sssa.llc.ed.ac.uk/whalsay/2014/12/16/foolish-young-girl-the-2/

I only have a couple variants. Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 04:17 PM

Hi,

I did find two versions of Foolish Young Girl but I can't understand this version which appears to be titled wrong:

http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/17775/3

Nothing is easy :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: GUEST,Reinhard
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 03:40 AM

Sarah Makem sang the "Oh, what a foolish girl was I" line in the fifth verse of "The Butcher Boy" as recorded by Diane Hamilton in 1956 and released on her Musical Traditions anthology "As I Roved Out":

In London city where I did dwell
A butcher boy, I loved right well
He courted me, and me heart away
And then with me, he would not stay.

I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain
I wish I was a maid again
A maid, a maid I ne'er shall be
'Til cherries grow on an apple tree.

I wish my baby it way born
And smiling on its daddy's knee
And I poor girl to be dead and gone
And the long green grass growing over me.

She went upstairs to make her bed
And calling up her mother said
"Get me a chair 'til I sit down
A pen and ink 'til I write down."

At every word she dropped a tear
And every line cried, "Willie dear.
Oh, what a foolish girl was I
To be led astray by a butcher boy."

He went upstairs and the door he broke,
He found her hanging from a rope.
He took his knife and he cut her down
And in her pocket, these lines were found.

Dig my grave wide large and deep
Put a marble stone at my head and feet
And in the middle, a turtle dove,
That the world may see I died for love.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 05:10 AM

Found this and thought it might be enlightening:-

The Butcher Boy

[ Roud 409 ; Laws P24 ; G/D 6:1169 , 6:1171 ; Ballad Index LP24 ; trad.]

Sarah Makem sang The Butcher Boy in two recordings made by Diane Hamilton in 1956. They were included in 2012 on her Musical Traditions anthology As I Roved Out. Another recording made by Paul Carter and Sean O'Boyle in 1967 was published in 2012 on her Topic anthology The Heart Is True (The Voice of the People Series Volume 24). Rod Stradling commented in the first album's booklet:

The Butcher's Boy appears to be derived from at least three separate British broadsides, namely Sheffield Park, The Squire's Daughter (also known as The Cruel Father or The Deceived Maid) and A Brisk Young Sailor, which is also sometimes called There Is an Alehouse in Yonder Town. It's a very well-known ballad, with 275 Round instances, 80 of which are sound recordings, but almost all are from the USA. Ireland has only one other named singer, Andy Cash, and England has only eight entries.

Frank Proffitt sang this song as Morning Fair on his 1962 Folk-Legacy album Traditional Songs and Ballads of Appalachia. It was also released in 1966 as the Topic album North Carolina Songs and Ballads. The booklet commented:

Not often found in this form, this ballad is widely popular in America as The Butcher Boy, perhaps because it was widely printed in the early songsters. Brown points out that it appeared as a stall ballad in both Boston and New York. Frank learned his splendid variant from his aunt, Nancy Prather. The ballad is usually found with the following as the final couplet:

And on my breast place a turtle dove
To show the world that I died for love.

Queen Caroline Hughes sang The Butcher Boy in a recording made by Peter Kennedy in her caravan near Blandford, Dorset, in April 1968. It was published in 2012 on her CD of the Topic anthology I'm a Romany Rai (The Voice of the People Series Volume 22).

Lyrics
Sarah Makem sings The Butcher Boy
In London city where I did dwell
A butcher boy, I loved right well
He courted me, and me heart away
And then with me, he would not stay.

I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain
I wish I was a maid again
A maid, a maid I ne'er shall be
'Til cherries grow on an apple tree.

I wish my baby it way born
And smiling on its daddy's knee
And I poor girl to be dead and gone
And the long green grass growing over me.

She went upstairs to make her bed
And calling up her mother said
"Get me a chair 'til I sit down
A pen and ink 'til I write down."

At every word she dropped a tear
And every line cried, "Willie dear.
Oh, what a foolish girl was I
To be led astray by a butcher boy."

He went upstairs and the door he broke,
He found her hanging from a rope.
He took his knife and he cut her down
And in her pocket, these lines were found.

Dig my grave wide large and deep
Put a marble stone at my head and feet
And in the middle, a turtle dove,
That the world may see I died for love.

Frank Proffitt sings Morning Fair
As I woke up one morning fair
To take a walk all in the air,
I thought I heard my true love say,
"Oh turn and come my way.

"You told me tales, you told me lies,
You courted a girl worth more than I.
But gold will fade and silver will fly,
My love for you will never die.

"Oh, tell me, Willie, oh tell me please,
Do you take her upon your knees
And hug and kiss her all so free
And tell her things you won't tell me?

"Is it because that I am pool
That you turn me far from your door
To wander out in a cruel dark world
Because you love a rich man's girl?"

"She gave me cake, she gave me wine,
I rode out in her carriage fine;
She set herself upon my knee
And begged and kissed me all so free.

"Her father gives to me his land
And also of his daughter's hand;
To give it up, a fool I'd be,
To trade it all for the love of thee."

She went upstairs, up to her bed;
A aching was all in her head;
A rope she tied around the sill;
They found her hanging, cold and still.

There in her bosom was this note,
All with her pen these words she wrote:
"Heap up my grave so very high
So Willie can see as he rides by."

Queen Caroline Hughes sings The Butcher Boy
Oh, at London town where I did dwell,
Oh, the butcher boy I loved so deep.
He courted me my life away
And that same town where I could not stay.

"Oh, mother dear, you do not know
What pains and sorrows that I've had to bear.
You get me a chair and I'll set down
And pen and ink I will write it down."

Now, her father come home late one night.
He found his house without of light.
Upstairs he goes in his daughter's room,
Found her hanging by her beside by a rope.

Oh, with a knife he cut her down
And in her left breast that note were found.
Oh, what a silly girl she were
To hang herself for a butcher boy.

"Now, mother dear, you order my grave,
You order it neat and very long.
You'll put white lilies now head and foot,
And in the middle you placed a dove
To show this wide world I died for love."

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 05:17 AM

The Butcher Boy

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 01:33 PM

TY for the versions,

"Foolish Young Girl" begins as follows, this version sung by Jean Elvin, of Buchan:

A foolish young girl was I, was I,
To lend my love to a farmer's boy;
A farmer's boy although he be,
He spoke broad Scotch when he courted me.

The line "O what a foolish girl was I," is found in many versions of the Butcher Boy- but not as the opening stanza- or in that form. I have now six versions, 2 of which are broadsides and older. Another title for "Foolish Young Girl" is "Irish Boy" which again is used for other songs "Wee Irish Boy" is somewhat similar but a different song.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 03:07 PM

Hi Richie,
Yes, I was responsible for the renumbering in the Roud Index regarding this family of laments, not Roger.
The simplest approach here is to follow the autonomous laments and ignore initially the overlaps. The evolution and probable sources, so much simpler with narrative pieces, are here an absolute minefield as they cross over so often. Also much of what has been printed previously is likely to be wrong as it doesn't follow this approach, so only close study of each version will bring anything like an accurate classification.

FWIW I think any English/Irish versions of Butcher Boy have come back from your side of the pond.

Using the list I sent you of the separate Master Titles and Roud Numbers it should be easy enough to place any given version that is not a fragment into one of these. Fragments in the case of these laments are always going to be difficult to place and you may need to use geographical info or tunes to place them. if you are struggling to place a particular text come back to me and I will advise.

You seem particularly interested in Rambling Boy so I'll look at that first. If I remember correctly it is the earliest source of the 3 suicide stanzas which were taken into 'Butcher Boy' and from there into 'Died For Love'.