BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue

Subject: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:45 AM

Well, that was going to say "issues", but the letter limit got me.

My local labour party 'phoned me to canvass last night. Amongst other things they asked me what I thought the single most important issue in the election was. I opted for the health service. I might have gone for the ability of the people to trust their elected representatives to tell the truth, or the defence of labour against organised capital.

What's the general view? Single most important issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:59 AM

Justice, but maybe that's a concept rather than an issue.

Economic justice? Helping people to escape poverty. Poverty is so predictive of health, education and lots of other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:08 AM

Opting out of the common fisheries policy while there are still a few fishing villages left alive, especially up here in Scotland. That and honesty about taxation, stop hiding it away in indirect forms, and put up income tax, you know the one, it's what people only pay when they're earning. Why should unemployed people and people on fixed incomes like pensioners pay tax? Up here you need a car if you're going to work, and you need to put fuel in that car to attend work or even worse an interview, why should it be so expensive to seek or to hold down work? I paid 92 cents per litre for diesel in the republic of Ireland last week, that's about 54 pence, somethings wrong somewhere when we pay 83 pence here!
I could go on!!!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:46 AM

I agree that taxation on expenditure is regressive in nature, and can therefore mainly be justified only as a disincentive to a form of expenditure.

However, if you concentrate solely on income taxation, there will need to be some form of capital taxation too, and then liquidity issues arise.

Fishing has to reduce, or there will soon be no fish left (big in the papers last week) - the obvious alternative being the general reduction in population - but the CFP is also a price stabilitation regime, I think, so better to reform it than remove it. Price stabilisation regimes need to be very carefully thought through or they result in wasteful production for subsidy followed by destruction of the product - like the grain mountain and the wine lake.

IMHO travel costs should be capable of being offset against income not only in relation to business travel as such but also to get to work and seek work -up to limits (by fuel efficiency, pollution etc) and up to certain limits. My late wife and I used to drive 40 miles each in opposite directions to work, and it is better for mankind to reduce such waste and damage.

But can you really say any of these are the single most important issue?

Maybe Malthus had it right, and a few good infantry-intensive wars, maybe halving the world population, would solve quite a few problems at a stroke? How about another American civil war (although I don't know how we might start it)? How about a new Black Death (perhaps someone beat me to the idea and designed Aids for the purpose already, but if they want to solve world problems they released it in the wrong place...)

But seriously folks...

What about immigration? I know of a trade union branch espousing the absolute right of all to immigrate to England for political or economic or any other purpose - but that can't be sensible. I know of others who say "no deprivation of liberty without fair and public trial" - but again some executive power is in practice essential, and the real issue is how to ensure it is properly limited.

How about legal aid? No right is of value unless it can be enforced, and if only the rich can afford lawyers only the rich have effective rights.

What about unions - the courts have just held that the right to join a union as such is a right protected by Human Rights law - but that rights negotiated by a union are not, the consequence being that the ability of labour to organise can be (and is being) reduced to a paper moon, an illusion with no real substance (with the consequence being that organised capital can and will then deprive workers of the fruits of their labour)? France has started on the road back to wage slavery...

What about the famous whore of the middle classes - Laura Norder? If property is legitimate (a distinct from property being theft) then if the rule of law is not enforced society wholly breaks down. But how do we ensure that the law is neutral between members of society, and not the weapon of one sector of society against another.

Really must go and do something useful now....

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: EagleWing
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 06:13 AM

Can we have the Labour Party back? 'Cause I'm sick of having to choose between two Tory parties!

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 07:06 AM

Definitely the Iraq War, as this should have made clear to every one the undemocratic nature of our political system.
The public was and still is being lied to and manipulated by this government in the cause of building a place in history for Tony Blair.

He has succeeded in that cause, but probably not with the result he intended.

The publics' trust in politicians is rightly at an all time low...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: DougR
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 12:09 PM

Ake: just curious, have you ever trusted a politician?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 12:17 PM

Our county council election are most likly to be on the same day as the general election. An important issue for me (in the context of Mudcat) is what will I change my mudcat name too if I dont get
re-elected. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 03:54 PM

Surely you could be "Excllr" - to be pronounced "Excelsior". Meaning "I will do better..."

At least with local elections it's often possible to split your vote, and vote for one candidate of a party and against the others.

I don't much like the idea of a Presidential election, but I wish there was a way people could vote to kick Blair out, while ensuring that we wouldn't have a Tory government (I mean an official Tory government). I'm not sure what the reverse of a "landslide" is, but whatever it is, on a personal vote that's what I'd expect Blair to be given.

It beats me why the Tories haven't twigged the fact that they can't outflank New Labour on the right without coming across as some kind of transatlantic crazies. Go back to the more traditional pre-Thatcherite Toryism, and they'd be neatly placed to the Left of New Labour, and they could start to come back to life.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:55 PM

Doug....Not since I learned to piss standing up....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:04 PM

Akenaten suggests the Iraq war is the single most significant issue, but he doesnt indicate which way that should make me vote. Guidance, please? Veritas?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:28 PM

Surely the implication would be that that was entirely up to you, greg. Of course on that issueIraq there's no significant difference between the official Labour and Tort line, so it shouldn't be much of a factor for anyone who was trying to choose between those two parties.

Though in fact, with the electoral system we've got, though it's always spoken of as "choosing between parties", it's actually a matter of choosing between candidates, who could well in any particular case be totally at odds with their party; and for the large majority of us, there is little prospect of the sitting candidate being unseated anyway.

It's really all smoke and mirrors.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:33 PM

That's what I meant,really. McGrath. As there's no particular difference between the likely contenders. what does Akenaten mean by saying Iraq is the most significant election issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:34 PM

Greg...I wouln't presume to offer guidance,you have your own ideas on politics and I dont see much wrong with them.

I wont be voting,on the principle that it only encourages the bastards,but I hope people give some sort of mandate to the tree huggin environmentalists.

The environmentalist group are gaining strength all the time ,as the established parties become more unpopular.
Issues like mass housing development for the rich , wind farms which are an eyesore and uneconomical, inshore water pollution in the West of Scotland, ect ect, are driven by huge profits for a few at the expense of the visual and social amenity of the indigenous population.

So Greg although I woundn't offer guidance, I know you love the West Coasters. So let your conscience be your guide and vote green...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:42 PM

Alas, Ake. I have no choice. I always vote the same as my father, grandfather, great-grandfather(and possibly further back than that). As Cornish methodists, which party will be ovious. And, coincidentally, they have taken a reasonbly robust anti-Iraq war line. Which does not at all please my Iraqi musician friends, who tend to be rather gungho on these matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 04:02 AM

Mcgrath that is pure brilliance thank you. Mind you I was thinking about starting a thread about a new name and I think you v'e cracked it already!. The second point you make I couldn't possibly comment on. cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 04:48 AM

I guess 30 or 40 million people can vote. One vote, cast or denighed, wont make any difference, nor should it, we all count for one and none for more than one.

Those who join and work within parties have more influence and that is part of the democratic process - seeking to create party policy and encourage others to vote for those policies.

The request, can we have our Labour Party back is a sound one. Party Conference used to make policy from the bits and pieces send from branch and constitueny meetings that too was part of the democratic process. It doesn't happen much now because Tony changed things.

The real problem for all parties is that almost nobody joins them, all most nobody goes to the meetings and almost nobody campaigns between or during elections.

If people really want to change the way things are run - join any party, you will will be welcomed by the few. You can become an officer or even a councillor or maybe an MP.

The major issue remains helping people to escape poverty. Poverty is so predictive of health, education and lots of other things.

Politics has to be for the long game. We need to get the environment at the centre of all policies but I bet we wont.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 08:19 PM

1. All politicians lie to us, not just Tony.
2. No politician ever intends to keep any promise.
3. Politicians don't give a shit about the poor. They live elsewhere.
4. No political party will ever give us what we need.

Less politics, and more government. That's it........simple.

Vote for your constituency's independent candidate, and send a man to parliament, who has to listen to what you want, and vote accordingly, that's if he wants to remain your MP.

If you don't vote at all, YOU GET THE GOVERNMENT YOU DESERVE!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 09:03 PM

"I'm fed-up of having two Tory parties to choose from"

There's always the Lib. Dems. of course and they have more folk musicians and enthusiasts in their ranks than the two Tory parties.

They're also 'sound' on the Iraq war.

Charlie Kennedy must be the only party leader who canvasses in his constituency (west scottish highlands) with his dad (a champion fiddler) leading the way pied-piper style!

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:26 AM

Just a thought, taking a medium-term view:

Tony is going isn't he? Said he'd serve only 4 or 5 years more, if re-elected. (Also, heart problems?)

What will everything look like after he's gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 05:51 AM

Tony won't be happy until he's been PM for longer than Thatcher, or possibly God, whichever he thinks he is today. And I think he'd do anything short of selling the first-born into slavery to make that happen.
I think less goverment is the most important issue. The chances of any of them actually making that happen is remote, but at least the tories are thinking about it...

Bunnahabhain

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Crystal
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:05 AM

VOTE MONSTER RAVING LOONIE!!!!!
But seriously folks! I think the most important issue is the environment.
However A cat as PM would be a good thing too.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:20 AM

Richard, don't bother. There simply isn't another party that can do anything in these elections, despite the expected mass defection of Labour's radical wing.

I voted Labour at every opportunity from 1970 to 2000. I can not imagine any circumstances which would induce me to vote for them again. War, imprisonment without trial, privatisation, racist immigration controls, educational centralism, university funding... the list is endless. If I'd wanted policies like these, I could have supported the Tories at any stage over these last 35 years. Heath was way to the left of the current Labour government. I didn't vote for him, and I won't vote for Blair, Brown, Blunkett or any of the rest of them. And it's the refusal of grassroots activists like yourself to boycott them that keeps them going.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 06:36 AM

The original question posed to Richard by the canvassers is poppycock anyway. I never voted one way or another in an election because of a "single issue", there was never a party that represented 100% of my wishes; usually I have to go for "best fit".

But if a single issue is what they want, then for me this is the lies/subterfuge over the whole Iraq campaign and all that is associated with it. Sure we are always suspicious of politicians being economical with the truth. But we generally punish those that get caught, one way or the other. Here we have a PM who not only sent people's kids to fight an unecessary/unjust war under false pretences, but on the way also condoned Guantanamo (its very existence is anathema to me). He has blood on his hands, and I'd rather die poor than without honour.

That leaves us between a rock and a hard place in choosing who to vote for (and I am a believer in voting, not abstaining). But I expect that between the LibDems, Greens etc we will find a "best fit" that's good enough for this time round. Anything but the dishonour of condoning TB's behaviour through my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 09:41 AM

If my local Labour Party phoned me they would get reported to the TPS. Don't the snivelling politicians realise there is a backlash?

AND why is the PC & C P-B wedding timed the way it is? Because they did a deal with his Godship in No 10. Whatever the psychology it ain't foolin' me.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cats
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:38 PM

How about, please leave teachers alone to teach and stop playing politics with kids futures. They did promises a 5 year moritorium on educational change when they got in the first time, but I'm still waiting for it to start!

And Cllr... Mike's quite a good name... ouch.:-)))

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: DougR
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:42 PM

I'm not familiar with all the issues facing the voters in GB, but one thing I hope is that the election does not cause your current PM to be replaced.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 01:01 PM

And yet in your country, Doug, he'd count as a raving left-winger (so would most of our Tory Party for that matter).

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 01:28 PM

Hmm. Maybe Lib Dem or Green then. Many of the issues canvassed above are important - and it was not a question of what single issue would make me vote for (or against) New Labour, but which issue is "the most important".

That leaves me with the health service - cleaning, reversing privatisations, etc - or maybe honesty in politics (look at the way we have been lied to about Iraq, the Licensing Act, and almost everything else under the sun)

How about housing - permitting housing authorities to build new social housing?

Re-nationalising rail?

Stopping PFI and other priviatisations all round?

Pensions? bring back SERPS!

An excess profits tax on oil companies and banks?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: DougR
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 01:35 PM

I'm only interested in the PM's POV on fighting terrorism, Kevin. The rest is the business of the people of GB.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:32 PM

One good thing about having an officially Tory Government was that, when it tried to impose cuts on local services, our local council in Harlow could be relied on to at least try to resist, and to protect us. Now they just roll over and cooperate.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:39 PM

No DougR,

The PM's POV on arse licking your own crazy leader, is very much UK business, and most of us want him to stop. Please go peddle your "Support the dishonest bullies" message to those who might buy it. I believe you'll find most of them in the southern half of your own country.

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 07:35 PM

Hello Don, may I for once agree with you?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST,A fair man
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 07:40 PM

May I go one further than Don and Richard and point out that it was the USA's cultural and economic imperialism - of which those in the two towers were in fact the troops - that created the situation in which those without arms who wished to defend their cultures had to turn to violence?

Like the hypocrisy that attacks Ken Livingstone, I am tired of the hypocrisy that funds terrorists who attack the UK, but screams "foul" when its own forces of oppression get their comeuppance.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: EagleWing
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:04 AM

"How about, please leave teachers alone to teach and stop playing politics with kids futures. They did promises a 5 year moritorium on educational change when they got in the first time, but I'm still waiting for it to start!"

Oh YES! I have lost count of how many changes I have had to try and take into account over the last few years. As a supply teacher I don't always get to hear of them until I go into a school that's struggling to fit in the new fad with the other demands made by a government whose priorities are "education, education and education" but who never actually consult educationalists.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Stu
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:04 AM

DougR - do not believe all your see on Fox news!

As said in the previous few posts, most people in the UK view Blair's cosying up to a right-wing nutter as extremely disturbing, and want him to stop.

As for his approach to terrorism, even though the NI peace process is in trouble at the moment, it proves the only way to stop terrorist violence is to address the issues causing it directly and TALK to people (not pre-emptive strikes), however repugnant that my seem to you.

I shall vote, but will probably spoil my ballot as I think no party is worth voting for.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:13 AM

But remember its not the same Tony.
As he said
first he wanted to be all things to all men.
Then he thought he knew best.
But now he's nice and cuddly and trusrworthy and is ready to backle down and do what we want.
And can someone explain why we have in charge of the country the only man in Britain who can lose money on every property deal he tries.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 09:40 AM

What would be entertaining would be if Labour rompee home nationally, and Tony Blair got chucked out in his constituency, Sedgefield. Sadly it's still pretty safe for him, though his vote and his majority did go down quite a bit last time. He's sitting on a majority of 17,713 (as against 25,116 the previous time. Maybe if the others dropped out and Martin Bell stood as a clean-up-the-stable candidate...

Here's the BBC site which gives you all those kinds of details about the last election results.

And here is another site that gives stuff about MPs voting records generally - "They work for you". This is the Tony Blair page, but all the other MPs are all in there too.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:45 PM

Democracy - the worst system of Government except all the others.

All power to critics every politician needs them on their shouldres all the time.

Not voting - hard to see what it achieves.

Voting is not enough. If your care about democracy and you feel able to contribute, the place is inside current politcal parties. Many of Tony Blairs critics are inside the party. The rank and file are not happy people.

If you want to actually change things, that's the best place to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:28 PM

Would be nice Les, if true, but I'm afraid it's not. We have this wonderful system here called the whip. It gently guides party MPs toward the government (Tony) POV.

One line whip:- "We'd realy like you to vote with us, and we'll explain why there isn't a conflict of concience. And we did give you the key to the members' loo".

Two line whip:- "We will take it seriously amiss if you don't vote with us, and sanctions might be applied. Your key to the members loo may be in jeopardy".

Three line whip:- "You will vote with us, or we'll cut your bollocks off, and you won't need a key to the members' loo".

Nobody ever changes anything until he is Prime Minister, and experience suggests that all changes he makes from that point on will be for the worse. Hence my comment above, re. independent candidates. It may not be practical, but it might possibly produce 635 MPs who are not afraid to vote for what they know is right.


Whether that would be better or not, in terms of results achieved, I know not, but it would be closer to what is really meant by democracy.

What we have now is a ruling clique who cannot be controlled, because their seats (votes) outnumber all other parties combined.

In essence this is little different than Germany under Hitler, or Russia under Stalin.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:41 PM

Profound radio vox pop quote from the streets of Liverpool;
"I don't vote 'cause it makes no difference. If it made a difference they wouldn't let us do it."
Discuss!

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:52 PM

In essence this is little different than Germany under Hitler, or Russia under Stalin.

That's an indefensibly idiotic statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:23 PM

Don T ....Im beginning to like your posts more and more.

Big Pink Lad ...Im surprised at your language. It seems clear to me that our democracy is a sham.
We may not yet use the military to repress protest , but just give them time, "Its comin'yet for aw that"
I reckon in another 20 yrs UK will be a fully fledged police state, inevitable ending for a "capitalist democracy".
Hows that for an oxymoron you psuedo intellectual?....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:38 PM

BigPinkLad, I will defend that (idiotic) statement. In terms of the fact that we cannot prevent them from doing whatever they wish, there IS little difference. We are as powerless as the populations mentioned above.

Unlike the US, we have no basically unchangeable written constitution, and there is, in theory, nothing to stop a British government from suspending elections, and ruling permanently, which would be defineable as totalitarian. The fact that no government (since Oliver Cromwell) has done, or would do, anything like that does not invalidate the argument. They could!

Had I claimed that our government was as evil as the other two, that would indeed have been both idiotic and indefensible, but I did not.
We can't, however, know what kind of party might attain to power in the UK in the future. Get the point?

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:06 PM

BPL   Im sorry, the last sentence in my last post should have ended with the word intellectuals.
The sentence was not meant as a jibe at you, but at a small group of self confessed highly intellegent people who live here.
                      Apologies ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:25 PM

You will find Don's point about the dictatorship of the majority rehearsed in less inflammatory language in all the major textbooks on English constitutional law.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:00 PM

Im a county cllr; I am politically responsible for a fifty eight million pound budget (at least for a few more weeks) Whilst a lot of it is tied up in contracts wages and government duties and legislation I still have the opportunity to make a difference. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:09 PM

Oh hang on, I just read Don's post We do have a written constition it is an uncodified constition but written never the less and to quote a book on constitution.

The following is paraphrased from an essay I wrote on the subject a few years ago. My source material "Politics UK" a Prentice Hall publication."A constitution can be defined as a system of laws,customs and conventions which defines the composition and powers of the organs of the state (such as government, Parliament,and the courts) and regulates the relations of various state organs to one another and of those state organs to the private citizen. The british constition differs from most in that it is not drawn up in a single codified document and as such it is described as an "unwritten" constitution However much of the constitution exists in "written" form. Many Acts of Parliament such as the Parliment acts 1911 and 1949 are clearly measures of constitutional law. Those acts constitute formal, written - and binding - documents. To describe the constitution as unwritten is thus misleading. Rather, what Britain has is a part written and uncodified constitution." Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:30 PM

But a constitution where, at least until recently, there were virtually no fixed safeguards, if a government with a solid majority were to decide to discard inconvenient things like trial by jury or any number of other matters of some importance.

To some extent the fact that we are now tied into a wider system of human rights legislation and courts does provide some safeguards, but pretty shaky and desultory ones.

If a whipped parliament does allow the present Home Secretary to lock citizens up in their own homes for as long as he chooses, without any kind of court hearing, it is going to be quite some time before that can get struck down effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:45 PM

yes Mcgrath I agree with you and as the conservative party do not think the home secretary should have this abilty I suggest you all go out and vote tory at the next election. cllr *runs and ducks*

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Stu
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:34 AM

The truth is successive governments have kept our unfair 'first-past-the-post' voting system because once in power it gives them a better chance of staying there. A system of proportional representation would give smaller minority parties a real chance to influence the way the country is run, and keep existing politicians on their toes a little more.

Blair got away with Iraq etc because his majority is so huge he can effectively do what he wants. This is hardly democratic, as no-else is listened to when taking policy decisions or drawing up legislation to steam-roller through unpopular laws.

As for not voting, I take your point Les but in the constituency where I live the sitting Tory MP would be voted in if he was caught live on TV buggering sheep, so safe is his majority.

I have no say in how the country is run, I feel betrayed by Blair so do not want to vote Labour and the Lib-Dems are way behind anyway, so I will exersise my franchise but spoil the ballot - different to not voiting because of apathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:16 AM

"...in the constituency where I live the sitting Tory MP would be voted in if he was caught live on TV buggering sheep..."

That's an interesting approach to electioneering. Otherwise, I take it, he'd be defeated?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST,democat
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:53 AM

Too much government
Too many laws
Too many people asking the govt to solve their problems
Too much support for failing.

Whats wrong with:

Less government
Less spent on public services
Income tax cuts so we can do what we want with our money.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST,Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:33 AM

What IS wrong with less Goverment?
Nothing, except it would require those in power to decide that we know what we want to do with our money than them. Money and power are addictive.

There are too many people with a vested intrest in expanding the state for it to be cut back without a huge political effort, which would need the backing of the electorate, and that can only come from the mass realisation that a change in the system is needed. Something we've not seen since Thatcher.

There are over one million people employed by the NHS. If it were propoposed that the health service was reformed, so a large proportion of them now worked for the private sector, there would be a huge opposition to it. The state has a near monopoly at the moment. Reforms would reduce this position of power. People are afraid of change, even it is likley they would be better off as a result.

Yes , there are some things goverment should do. Just far less of them than it does

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:38 PM

That Tory would almost certainly do less harm buggering sheep, than Tony does buggering the British population.......Food for thought?

It seems to me that most people labour under the impression that "politics" and "government" are synonymous. Not so!

Government, in its purest form, has to do with the benefit and welfare of those being governed.

Politics ( I will not use the word purest in the same sentence), has to do with the benefit, welfare, and preservation of the party governing, and its hangers on, often to the detriment of those being governed.

It is a given, in the UK, that the government will devote the majority of its time and energy to political survival. This simple fact may be the cause of the prevalent feeling of being over governed. There is insufficient time left in which to make reasoned and sensitive legislation, which explains why so many "knee jerk reactions" and sledgehammer policies find their way on to the statute books, leaving to the overworked judiciary, the job of translating misconceived and inept laws into some kind of justice.

Until there is a balance shift away from politics, our much vaunted mother of perliaments isn't worth a tinker's damn to us Brits, and that ain't happening any time soon.

The sole redeeming virtue of our system is that I can express these views without fear of a visit by secret police in the early hours of tomorrow morning. How long that will last, I wonder?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:06 PM

Politics is neither good nor bad it can be either depending on how it is operated- Poli is from the greek, city. Democracy translated from the greek is Mob Rule. (also as defined by Churchill as the worst form of government except for everything else.) I believe that the greater stabilty given to our elections is better for utilising the first by the post system because IMHO proportional reresentation reduces the link from the locality to the elected member. And at least I can continue a discussion without introducing LAMBentable insulting comments which if one were of in to that sort of thing one could say that it was was equally applicable to any party where there is a large majority. However in '83 the conservaties took Tony Benn's seat in east Bristol now Labour haMajority of over fifteen thousand. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:22 PM

The diffrence between politics and goverment, is in theory, the civil service and local govement officers. Professionals in goverment, rather than professionals in getting elected. They should have no party loyalty, and not overly influenced by the govement of the day. See Yes Minister/Prime Minister....
I know this is an impossible ideal, but the Civil service has become vastly more politicised since Blair came to power. This is not a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:32 PM

Less government = more effective liberty for the rich to continue to oppress the poor.

Oh, Don, try sending an email with the words Al Quaeda, terrorist, and nuclear bomb in it. You'll find an unmarked blue car with four burly people in blue suits outside your house watching you the next day. I tried it. It's later than you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: EagleWing
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:44 PM

Less spent on public services
Income tax cuts so we can do what we want with our money.

Since it is probably the poor that are most dependent on public services and the rich who gain most by income tax cuts I can see some small objection.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:48 PM

Individuals cannot change government quickly that would some form of not democracy.

Parties take longer but people have to talk and make agreements with each other that is the basis of party politics.

I am, and I remain, a loyal Labour Party worker. I don't expect to agree with everything the party or the government does. But I will say this; if you doubt your councilliors and MPs go and talk to them. You will find they are honest and helpful,regardless of perty, with the probable exception of the BNP. Then go and read the Mail, Express, Sun, Star and Sport and decide who does the most honest job, your elected members or the press.

As for for PR well maybe but I suspect we swap one set of problems for another. The Government of the Ols West Germany changed from Social Democrat to Christian Democrat when a small party changed sides. You might be happy with Greens and Lib Dems holding power but how about the BNP?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:54 PM

Cllr, I do understand the etymology, it's the lifetime experience of the practical operation on which I base my comments. When one has voted for 46 years without ever getting one truly honest and honourable representative, I feel that a certain mistrust of politicians, and politics is probably justified. I should point out BTW that my comments are directed solely at NATIONAL Politicians. On the whole I feel that local government does tolerably well, despite the interference of Westminster in their affairs.

Yes Richard, I agree, as my first post on this thread will confirm. I advocated more government AS OPPOSED to politics, and was blasted by someone who wants less government. (let everybody do as he wishes invariably means a downtrodden underclass, but what the hell, they're a FREE underclass).

Regarding the E-Mail and the boys in blue, suspect you're right, but have no intention of trying it for myself. When DOES your case come up, and can I watch you tie them in knots.....Please!

We're going tro have to wath this, RB, we are agreeing too often. Something must be seriously amiss.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:02 PM

Guest 148 I find my self agreeing with you and that by and large most councillors are good honest people. I may aspire to national politics one day and indeed my role as a cabinet member does have a occasional regional and more rarely a national impact -albeit to a much smaller degree. At one point (i can't remember exactly which parliament it was but over 40% of MP's had local government experience. The Tensions between Local and national politcs are well documented. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:03 PM

Gross disparities in wealth are destructive of society, and undermine and diminish democracy. And it is the engine that is driving us to trash our environment, physical and social, in a way that threatens all our future.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:31 PM

Don ... I agree with much of what you say, although as a professional advisor to persons politique I would say that comparing the UK Government with Nazi Germany and Joe Stalin's Soviet Union is definitely a shot through the foot. Their infamy is genocide -- a grossly unfair comparison. I'm sure that's not what you meant and I didn't mean to imply you're an idiot. You're evidently not.

The monarch has the constitutional right to dissolve Parliament. It requires the consent of the House of Commons, but failure to reach such consent would represent a vote of no-confidence which would precipitate a general election. Whether a monarch would take such an step is unlikely, but I would hope not impossible.

Watch out for that etymolgy Cllr ;o). Politics derives from the Greek politicus (popular) and is a few steps removed from polis (city) ... and demos just means people, not mob. Unless you're from Teesside where it's pretty much the same thing ... just kidding Teessiders!

ake ... no offence taken. I was quite flattered to be called an intellectual, psuedo or otherwise. And now it's withdrawn - Dang.

Our participation in this discussion is proof that democracy is alive and well and working. I'll keep an eye out for further posts to be sure none of us gets whisked off in the night ... ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:45 PM

I misrememberedm my bad! Polis meaning city I should have as the example I usually used was policeman "man of the city"

Demos = people and Cracy = rule
Plato said that aristocracy (aristo = the best) was the most effective form of govt (as in a benign dictatership) while Democracy was the worst. Also while everyone was supposed to particpate it meant that a city state of 8,000 citizens was supported by a slave culture of approx 40.000 non -citizens mainly consisting of slaves woman and foreignors Cllr

from the bbc website

he ancient Greek word demokratia was ambiguous. It meant literally 'people-power'. But who were the people to whom the power belonged? Was it all the people - all duly qualified citizens? Or only some of the people - the 'masses'? The Greek word demos could mean either. There's a theory that the word demokratia was coined by democracy's enemies, members of the rich and aristocratic elite who did not like being outvoted by the common herd, their social and economic inferiors. If this theory is right, democracy must originally have meant something like 'mob rule' or 'dictatorship of the proletariat'.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:59 PM

Regardless of Greek roots , democracy today means to many people ,just another way that humanitys' greed and stupidity can be used to enslave them.

Democracy under Blair and Bush has become a sick joke..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:06 PM

Slaves and other such riff-raff didn't get a vote in Demos.

My PoliSci prof used to say the flaw with democracy is that it extends the franchise to people who watch reruns of Gilligan's Island. And that the only question for most of us at election time is "Do you want new idiots or is it OK to keep the idiots you've got?"

Sorry for the thread drift, back to the question. Setting aside foreign policy, why do you think the chief domestic issue will be?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:51 PM

The major issue remains helping people to escape poverty. Poverty is so predictive of health, education and lots of other things.

Politics has to be for the long game. We need to get the environment at the centre of all policies but I bet we wont.

Just to make my position clear........

I am, and I remain, a loyal Labour Party worker. I don't expect to agree with everything the party or the government does. But I will say this; if you doubt your councilliors and MPs go and talk to them. You will find they are honest and helpful,regardless of perty, with the probable exception of the BNP. Then go and read the Mail, Express, Sun, Star and Sport and decide who does the most honest job, your elected members or the press.

I was acessing from elswhere before.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issu
From: Cllr
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:18 PM

bpl when and where did study pol sci? Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:49 PM

University of Victoria, Canada. Late 80s

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Cllr
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:56 PM

oh for soem reason I thought you were english! I did POL and MODHIST (Bsc) At Brunel West London 94-98 I was a councillor in the london borough of hillingdon at the time which was fun. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:04 PM

"mob" comes from "mobile vulgus" meaning "changeable crowd".

I always like the fact that Australians use "mob" as the term for a group of kangaroos (among other things...)

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:37 PM

Don, your problem is voting for the parties you have voted for.

Robert Marshall-Andrews, current Medway Labour is first class - and unreconstructed Old Labour clause four man (and a QC).

Regrettably the head of his party is Tony B. Liar. Possibly the only less trustworthy person on the alleged left in politics is gorgeous George Galloway - although Mandy, Straw (whatever happened to him, he was solid left at the NUS in the 70s?), and Ubergruppenfuhrer Blunkett come close. Actually I'll include Darling in there. And of course the crew from the Licensing Act, where those of us who opposed it are gradually being proved to have been right.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Col K
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:24 PM

HONESTY
HONESTY
HONESTY

That is the most important issue.

Are ANY of our current lot honest in what they tell us?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:35 AM

>Are ANY of our current lot honest in what they tell us?<

errrr no.

Although the Liberal Democrats have such a large student wing that any attempt to take their promise to scrap tuition fees out of their manifesto would be met with a significan drop in party membership!

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:49 AM

" A Liberal vote is a wasted vote"

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:16 PM

It seems that politics is for some people a hobby or specator sport, thats fine.

But if it's purpose is not only understand but to change things you have to get involved, are you going to do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:35 PM

Here's a piece in today's Guardian about this very topic:
        
How to defeat New Labour - and still re-elect Labour

Basdically he's suggesting a kind of tactical voting aimed at picking out which Labour cabndidates deserve support, and which would be better defeated, with the idea of getting a reduced Labour majority, in which it'd be a lot harder for Blair to get stuff like Iraq and creeping privatisation through.

"Perhaps someone with the time and technical know-how will construct a website for progressive tactical voters."

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM

Perhaps one day some fair minded media mogul will make it possible for this kind of discussion to be aired nationally, so that enough people would vote tactically to make a difference. I do agree, though, that a seriously reduced majority would be the best possible result in the next election.

I am sure that Richard's little giveaway did not pass unnoticed, and that it will be obvious that I have been, and am by inclination, a tory voter, for which I make no apology. It should be noted that Tony Blah inherited the current fiscal situation, he did NOT achieve it. Over eighteen years Maggie Thatcher's government reduced inflation from 21.9% inherited from Wilson/Callaghan to less than 3%, before she went mad and imploded. Much of what they did was wrong, but at the least, they did try.

Looking at the period 1997 to date, it is hard to find anything constructive that TB has achieved, or any positive sign of effort. Given his emphasis on education, and the way he has driven teachers out of that field, his end of term report won't read "Could do better", but more likely "Couldn't do Worse:- 1 out of 10 for knowing his name".

So, for me, I shall vote tory again. I won't get a tory government (OK, cos I don't want this one), but I'll remove a tiny bit of Tony's power to do things in my name that I'd rather he didn't.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:14 PM

Don, you could have pretended to be a communist!

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:33 PM

Millions of people were made unemployed, poor and powerless by that woman. Educational and work links and opportunity were destroyed by the unemployment created in the 80's.

The issue remains the re-distribution of power and wealth and all that flows from those two.

'Perhaps one day some fair minded media mogul will make it possible for this kind of discussion to be aired nationally'

Have you read the the Times, The Telegraph, Mail, the Sun, the Star, the Sport? Who owns them and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:43 PM

some fair minded media mogul will make it possible for this kind of discussion to be aired nationally

With the Internet this can be done without a "fair-minded media mogul" - all it needs is some dedicated and indefatigable bods who knows their way round computers. That was demonstrated in the US election campaign, even if the candidate of the unfair media moguls did scrape home in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:45 PM

Somebody got sacked by the evidence of a Blogger. That sounds like progress.

Sorry details escape me and the Folk Club Calls

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:30 PM

"Over eighteen years Maggie Thatcher's government reduced inflation from 21.9% inherited from Wilson/Callaghan to less than 3%, before she went mad and imploded."

Over a much shorter time Maggie Thatcher's government increased unemployment to about 3 million compared with the 1 million she inherited. I don't suppose all those people thrown out of work and then called spungers really noticed the drop in inflation that much.

Quote: "during her first two terms unemployment nearly tripled, the number of poor people increased, and bankruptcies resulted from her efforts to curb inflation."
Click here for full article

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:34 PM

"Millions of people were made unemployed, poor and powerless by that woman."

And the interesting thing is that the election posters consisted of a queue of unemployed (1 million at that time) and the slogan "Labour isn't working". I saw that as a promise that her government would actually reduce unemployment.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:51 PM

Well that was no surprise, all replies rubbishing the idea that anything was right with the Tories. But, significantly, not one post suggesting anything good from Blair & Co. Kinda makes my earlier point about independent candidates n'est ce pas? Seems we all agree that they couldn't do less than the last two lots.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 04:57 AM

Well, they did make the Bank of England independant.That is a good thing

However, one sensible act in 8 years? A group of trained monekys could do better. Probably a group of untrained monkeys could as well...

BTW, Chongo Chimp, this is not a personal attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Terry K
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 04:58 AM

Thatcher did unpopular things which resulted in hardship for many. Short-term hardship, necessary for long-term improvement. Which is what we got. Many did not agree with her methods (I may or may not be included) but the results have been undeniable.

Blair is a twat, a fool and a fucking liar and he'll get voted in again. Once he has, he will continue to meddle in areas that Government should not be wasting time and money on. His pandering to Bush with absolutely nothing in return is the most cringeworthy act of political posturing it has ever been my misfortune to witness.

The really sickening thing is to consider who we would get if it wasn't Blair - the likelihood is Brown, for fuck's sake, less of a fool perhaps, but much more naturally dishonest.

Is my frustration with modern politics starting to show?

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:41 AM

"Well that was no surprise, all replies rubbishing the idea that anything was right with the Tories. But, significantly, not one post suggesting anything good from Blair & Co. Kinda makes my earlier point about independent candidates n'est ce pas? Seems we all agree that they couldn't do less than the last two lots."

I'm inclined to agree with you on that, Don.

We've been seriously let down by both kinds of Tory. Time for Real Labour, Lib-Dem or independants.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:48 AM

"Short-term hardship, necessary for long-term improvement. Which is what we got."

What long term improvement?

Millions of tons of natural resources no longer available. Public transport in a worse mess than ever. They privatised public transport in order to have more competition. Virtually all public transport in this part of the country is owned by a single private company - more of a monopoly than before. Unemployment was still much higher at the end of the Conservative "reign" than at the beginning. As for dishonesty and corruption they are no higher under New Labour (Pink Tory) than under Thatcherism (Purple Tory).

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:13 AM

Short-term hardship - there were enormous numbers of people whose lives were ruined, and whole communities devastated. The results are still with us and will be for generations. That wasn't "short-term".

And one result is the pattern of politics which people rightly find so distasteful about New Labour.

Insofar as there were changes which were needed, there were other ways of achieving which would have been less destructuve in social and human terms.   

It is said that at one time the magic formula for producing a finely tempered steel sword involved running it through the body of a slave. Eventually it was discovered that precisely the same effect, and better, could be achieved in other ways. That's more or less how Thatcher achieved her reforms.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:18 AM

How about some real tories? A party that's not afraid to say tax cuts mean we take less of your money and that you should run your life, not the goverment.

That would be a real choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:12 AM

Bun(whatever) - please engage brain before putting mouth in gear.

I repeat. Less government = more effective liberty for the rich to continue to oppress the poor.   Only the rich and the doctrinaire believe what you just said.

And creating an independent central bank was a damn silly idea, that only a "New Labour" (= conservative) government could have thought of. What does an independent bank put first? The interests of the people, or those of capital and banks? It's a no-brainer.

The belief that choice leads to optimal distribution for all is equally well known by any first-year economist to be false - it does not and cannot turn ineffective demand (ie needs that the poor cannot afford to pay for) into effective demand, and therefore the free market economy fails even its own tests for benefit - unless you disregard the poor because they don't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:42 AM

I'm voting SSP. Makes bugger all difference who i vote for in practical terms, with the major parties being identical in all but name...so i'm voting for a principle.

Dishonesty amongst politicians is a matter of degree...

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:51 AM

What's the deal with Labour anyway? They've shuffled along so far into the right, they'll be wearing jackboots in a couple of years.
I can hear Kier Hardy spinning in his grave...

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: The Barden of England
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 04:12 PM

I had 5 redundancies under the Tories between 1983 and 1993. Those 10 years screwed up any chance I had of putting enough money into a pension fund and thereby enjoying a decent retirement income. I'm probably going to have to sell the family jewels, the house and the cat, just like the Tories did with the water companies, the electricity company, the National Grid, the Gas company. Need I go on?

I'm not voting for Tonie's cronies either, but in rememberance of all the people who died in 2 world wars - my father fought in the last one and is thankfully still with us - and in the many wars since I believe that it is my solemn duty to go and vote. The only wasted vote, is an unused vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:36 PM

Why do we call them something vaguely non-insulting like "Tories"?

With you there JB. At least we can both sell our daughers and probably show a profit!

One of my problems is that Marshall-Andrews ( good legal mind, as a QC, and a staunch clause 4 old labour man) is a damn good local MP. So do I go for him, or hope another candidate turns up?

Maybe I even write to him and ask if there could please be a local Labour party I could assist, in stead of a New Labour one?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:38 PM

Every second poster says "they're all bastards, but I dont want to waste my vote"

I'm very sorry to tell you ,but your vote is not worth the paper its printed on .
How long will it be till we're in the same position as the Americans.

Is "Democracy" really the best of two evils,if that is the case then using your vote and helping to continue the process is the "waste"

How about putting some real effort into protest and trying to getsome genuine alternatives to the system thats fuckin our world..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Grab
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:01 PM

Lib Dems look like the only alternative. As Charlie K says, they're the only opposition party. The Tories and Labour are the same, just with different slogans.

Single issue: public services. Raise taxes, improve public services and re-nationalise public services. I mean, who the hell thought it was more important for a hospital to generate profit than for it to generate well people?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:11 PM

I would be happier if they went back to some level of socialism !!
And by the way , 100 !!

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:15 PM

Don't sit on the fence, Terry K. Come down and say what you mean LOL.

Seriously though, I feel less lonely now there are two of us. Good post my friend

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:33 PM

Hi Grab,

The Lib Dems ARE the only party who could , just conceivably, win enough votes to beat the double right wing, but until they are able to tell prospective voters what their policies are on the important issues that ain't gonna happen.

That's why I made the comment about independents. Seems to me the only thing they need to highlight is their determination to represent the expressed wishes of their own constituents against any and all opposition.

A pipe dream, I know, but what a pity that it is so. We might even have achieved truly representative government, and it would be much harder for this country to be dragged into a war that we don't believe in.

Still, at the end of the day, all should vote, and for the candidate in whose ability they believe.

Richard, for what it's worth, I think you should vote for Marshall Andrews. We both know he is a one off, a true socialist and a man who already listens to the wishes of his constituents. Even I can see in him an MP I could trust and respect. Off hand I can't think of one tory that I could describe in that way, so I have a much more difficult decision than you. But whatever my choice, I will vote, because I really believe that the only wasted vote is NO vote.


Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:01 PM

Don ...In my part of the country, we've seen the "independents" in action in LOCAL govt.
In almost every case they're bought over by one of the big groupings.
They invariably turn out more corrupt than the party hacks.

We will never change peoples' outlook through any of the party machines , they are too locked into the system, in fact they rely on the system for survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Terry K
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 09:07 AM

Many of us are tempted by the thought that the Lib Dems are the only option. Problem is that we only think that because all the rest are so shite. In truth, it's probable that their no-names are as bad as the rest. Imagine if we voted them in, only to find they were as bad as the current lot, where could we possibly go from there?

So I think we have to mentally keep the Lib Dems in reserve, as "a last hope in case all else fails", but with the intention of never having to fall back on it.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:47 AM

And creating an independent central bank was a damn silly idea, that only a "New Labour" (= conservative) government could have thought of. What does an independent bank put first? The interests of the people, or those of capital and banks? It's a no-brainer.

Putting the interests of the people, or even the bank first is better than leaving the central Bank under political control, so the priority becomes getting re-elected, and therefore making people feel rich on polling day. Sensible policy and timing go out the window at that point.

The long period of stability and growth we've had has been a direct result of an independant Bank of England, Tory reforms, and a few years of restraint from Gordan Brown. The restraint has faded, and growth is now slowing. We all lose as a result.

And what would be wrong with a goverment that spends, say 30% of our national income, rather than the currrent 41-42%?
That is a big enough cut to make a real diffrence, but not so large as to remove all goverment support for those who really need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:19 PM

"I mean, who the hell thought it was more important for a hospital to generate profit than for it to generate well people?"

Probably the same silly bugger who decided that "economy" was more important than paying for education or policing.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:23 PM

"Imagine if we voted them in, only to find they were as bad as the current lot, where could we possibly go from there?"

At least we would know. We'll never know if we simply sit on the fence saying "What if..."

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Grab
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 09:59 AM

So I think we have to mentally keep the Lib Dems in reserve, as "a last hope in case all else fails", but with the intention of never having to fall back on it.

Any particular reason? When the devil you know is crapping on you and yours from a great height, the angel-or-devil you don't know is worth a go, surely?

What scares me is that too many people may be institutionalised like this. The attitude is "the last two incumbents have utterly screwed us, but we don't want anyone else because at least we know *how* we're going to get shafted with these two".

Don is right that the Lib Dems need to state their policies more clearly. However, the very fact that they need to consult with their party, as to what their policies should be, has to be a good thing. The last 20 years have shown quite clearly what happens to a party in power when the party leader can arbitrarily impose his own policies over the will of his party.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:16 PM

You can wrangle around the value of your vote but it is not enough. Do anything more than vote.

Join a party, start a party, talk to other people, share ideas, spread ideas, try to find new ways of getting idaes and sharing them.

How can we re-distribute power and wealth?

The Labour Party remains the best bet.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:36 PM

All of the potential probelms we face are the result of the doctrinaire Thatcherite destruction of any real economic base - leaving us only with the opportunity of being servants.

It is only ever government intervention that has eased the path out of recessions created by capitalist theories. Preventing governments from doing such necessary things (eg by control of central banks) exemplifies the elevation of capital over labour, the principal source of suffering inthe Western world.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:11 PM

I'm with you Richard, just a bit pushed to find examples of democratic intervention into capitalism that are only slightly less ugly than capitalism itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:14 PM

Les,

You may well be right in saying that the the Labour Party is the best bet, but ONLY IF we can actually get the Labour Party back. We don't have it now, nor are we likely to anytime soon.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Terry K
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 06:03 PM

We don't actually have ANY viable parties at present. And no, we shouldn't give the Lib Dems a go just because they happen to be there - they have to convince people to vote for them by giving some inkling of what they would do if they got close to power. Something they have failed to do since Jo Grimond was a lad.

My earlier reference to them being like a mental fallback holds water (please don't be so naive as to call that institutionalised) - because even though we know they are complete tossers, we just don't want them to have the opportunity to prove it.

with only a slight smirk
Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:10 AM

'You may well be right in saying that the the Labour Party is the best bet, but ONLY IF we can actually get the Labour Party back. We don't have it now, nor are we likely to anytime soon.

Don T.'

You may well be right on this Don, but I see no point in going off and inventing the Labour Party (broad left, egaliterian, openly democratic, internationalist, I can't believe I am writing this) all over again.

Apparently Cho En Ly (sorry can't spell the name of the number 2 in China with Mao) when asked about the success of the French Revolution said 'It's too early to tell'

In the dark days of the 80's we never thought we would get back. We have and for the first time ever we have not mucked up the economy or got into civil war.

Blair will probably be damned for a long time over Iraq even if the country stabilises and the body count goes his way. People don't get the chance to get rid of fascist dictator very often and it looks like Blair misjudged the situation.

Lots of other complaints about what the government could do come back to higher taxes. We spent 20 years in opposition asking for people to vote for that and they did not. Gordon has done by stealth what Kinnock and Smith could not win an argument on.

That is why it's Labour for the long game, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 07:44 AM

Lots of other complaints about what the government could do come back to higher taxes. We spent 20 years in opposition asking for people to vote for that and they did not. Gordon has done by stealth what Kinnock and Smith could not win an argument on.

So you support intoducing changes by stealth, rather than telling people what you, as a goverment, want to do? It'll be fine so long as it's done
before enough people notice, and by then they'll just have to accept it....
Shall we introduce this in a few other areas? How about locking up opposition politicians? So long as you do it carefully, only a few family members would be kicking up a fuss, and once you've done it, everbody will just accept it. Doesn't matter if you can't win an arguement on it, by your above statement.

Bunnahabhain.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:02 AM

I am going to vote at this election for the first time in my 47years on this planet, and I will vote Tory. Why? I hate this nannying, 'Tony knows what's best for us 'attitude, stealth taxes, "safety cameras" and the banning of fox hunting. I also agree that our current prosperity has sod all to do with the current Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:06 PM

Vote Tory for the Council Tax and a Party Leader who didn't care when 4 million honest working people had no work.

Ok, I don't think the answer lies outside the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 06:50 AM

I say again Les.........What Labour Party?

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Cllr
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:30 AM

Vote for me! I have the answers

Your friendly neighborhood Councillor








PS What was the question?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:24 PM

Forthcoming UK election - important issue

That was the question Cllr.
The re-distribution of power and wealth is the important issue.

Don I say three times before ............ Party politics is what we have. It needs bringing to life and I don't know how to do it. I see no other way and no other party.

The Lib dems have a few good ideas but they are in council with Labour in some places and Tories in others.

Maybe all is lost and we will go the way of the USA where only rich people can get elected and most people will not bother to vote but I cannot be that pesimistic.

Perhaps this thread is dead?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 07:35 PM

Tariq Ali (remember him) was saying today that a small New Labour majority would give influence to minorities within the party. That might be good, but how can it be made repeatable?

Maybe RObert Marshall-ANdrews would like to form a splinter goup within?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: The Barden of England
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 08:24 PM

Almost minority government - now that will almost do it. Not this time for sure, but next time, well that might be different. Strange to think that 'The Shrub' will be gone by then, along with Phoney Eclair. I've had enough of The Might and The Right, along with The Right and The Might. But Richard McDB, will that RObert Marshall-ANdrews pay homage at the altar of of nodroG nworB? I bloody well hope not. Phoney's going, and probably sooner than later even though he said he wants a full third term; but then he's always truthful isn't he. There's always John Prescott -hmmm - - - what to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 04:24 AM

Being an active Conservative politician I would think that les and I arn't going to agree any time soon.
i don't particulary like drawn out discussions on politics (or rather the IM right your wrong sort of arguments they can often degenerate into on mudcat) and they rather play to the gallery. Political discussion which are a little more esoteric on mudcat can be quite fun though and it usually does not become personalised
I much prefer to talk to fellow mudcatters at festivals over a glass or two.
cllr

PS what about the labour lot bringing in that PEL law, bloody disgraceful us conservatives would never (Continued page 94)

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 01:30 PM

John, I actually think R M-A is a clause 4 man.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: GUEST,John Barden
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 03:31 PM

Cllr - The conservatives had from 1979 to 1997 to do something about the PEL system, and our disgraceful licensing laws, but what happened - diddly squat.

Richard - Good for him, there are not enough men of principles if you ask me