BS: Old expressions explained

Subject: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Know all.
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:36 PM

So the British Navy in the 18th Century had square plates on ships so they would be easier to manage...Hence the expression "Square meal"
"Enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is also an expression from the British Navy regarding cannonballs......ie....when they used an iron 'monkey' to hold their cannonballs...the constant hot and cold caused expansion and contraction....when contracting...the cannonballs rolled off the 'monkey' so they used brass which was infallible as regards holding the cannonballs.....to freeze the balls off a brass monkey is an impossibility....... so "Enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is incredulous to say the least.
When a flintlock pistol was fired...sometimes the main charge did not ignite.....only the powder in the pan at the side...hence the expression "just a flash in the pan"

Any more please?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:58 PM

There is a site somewhere that has these expressions explained, but of course, tonight I can't find it.

I like the upper crust explaination. Bread was baked in wood or coal fired ovens. The bottom of the oven got covered in cinders and crap. When the bread was taken out, it was sliced horizontally. The nice clean top bit was given to the 'gentry'. The middle bit was given to the poorer members of the community and the crunchy cindered crusts given to the poorest. Hence, the rich were 'the upper crust'.

Similarly, if someone was 'bottom drawer' it was a reference to the habit of poorer people bedding infants in the bottom drawer of the chest. They couldn't afford to get a cradle, having neither the money or the space so bedded the infant in the bottom drawer until it was bigger.

Limpit spent the first 6 months of her life on top of a chest of drawers, there being no room elsewhere in our bedroom for a crib... what does that make her?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: kendall
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:15 PM

That thing about the brass monkey is not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,know all
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:17 PM

Oh yes it is my unknowlegeable friend. it is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:24 PM

brass monkey

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:31 PM

If one works out of doors in minimal clothing, one is usually too tanned and chapped for the feint blue veins in the arms to be seen. Not true of aristocrats; hence 'blue bloods'.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:42 PM

Mack:

Blue blood dates back to the ancient Britons using war-paint made of blue clay called woad. If one's family tree was traceable back to 1066 and beyond, one was clearly a blue-blood. That's my story and I'm stickin;' to it, unless some research proves I am full of it!!

While it is true there was such a thing as a retainer called a brass monkey, it has nothing to do witht he expression and cannonballs. Freezing would tends to make the balls stay ON the brass, not fall out/off.

The bottom drawer and upper crust are suspect to my mind. Why not the upper and lower crusts of a pie, one of which is turned out neat and decorated up and the other merely a carrier of mincemeat?

A-who-is-not-blue-blooded.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:44 PM

This site, usually reliable, says that 'square meal is an Americanism. Alas.

If you really want to know, pm me and I'll tell you where 'OK' comes from. It's too long to post here. At least I think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 10:31 PM

All trades have thier stories . Here are some traditional pottery ones .            
               In the pottery world we have always used a "fettling knife" to claen up the edges on a leather hard pot. Being of fine fettle was all cleaned up. Hence   Your uncles "in fine fettle " meant he was dapper . The american vertion is often "He's in fine fiddle today . "
                One pottery in Ohio in the 1850's used to write on the side of the pots "Ol Korect "       ( All corect). Which was shortened to OK .. ( I know there are tons of other stories for OK but this is one of them ) As you know this tradional potter cant spell either!
                Working to a certain size pot meant you put a stick in some clay near the "turning table" and set a pointer to the finished height and width of the desired pot. Making pot after pot the same was called " Sticking to it " .
                "Turning out ware" was a term for making both pottery and wooden bowls : Pottery on a turning table and wood on a laithe .
                Bunging up the door of a kiln ( Cumbria UK ) was bricking up the door and frosting it with a layer of slurry clay from the workroom floor .
                  A bung of pots was a tower of pots in the kiln ( Yorkshire UK)
                  Turning a pot : turning upsidedown and trimming ( Cumbria UK )
                  Turning a pot :Making it on the wheel ( North Carolina )
                  Throwing a pot : Making it on the wheel ( Modern )
                   Jug : a small spouted vessle for poring under a gallon ( England )
                   Pitcher: a very large jug ( UK)
                   Pitcher : a small or large spouted vessle for poring (America)
                   Jug : a vessel closed at the top to less than 2 inches . (America)
                   Bottle:a vessel closed at the top to less than 2 inches (UK)
               

                   More then anyone really wanted to know . All the best Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 10:48 PM

Hardly, Guy! Fascinating! Tell us more?!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 11:48 PM

Like I didn't already have 10,000 different ways to waste time, now I'm gonna be stuck for days working my way through the Wordorigins.org site. Gee, thanks Mack.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:02 AM

"Jerkwater Town." When Sam Hill was building his railroad across the American West, he established a watering hole every few miles. He built a well and a windmill to pump the water up to a water tank, with a movable spout. Every 15 or 20 miles, a steam locomotive could find one of these water tanks where it could stop, and jerk the water spout down and fill his water tanks. He also established towns at every well. Hence ... "Jerkwater Town!". CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:15 AM

"The accomedations were POSH!"

This came from New York back in the glory days of the steam ships that sailed between New York and England. In the vernaculiar of the shipping trade, "POSH" stood for "Port Out, Starboard Home." (P O S H ) This meant that the more expensive cabins would be on the port side of the vessel leaving New York, and the starboard side of the vessel leaving England. Why? The sun would rise sooner on the starboard side of the vessel, being to the South, leaving New York and heading East. This meant that you could sleep a little later in the morning without the sun rising! (scrabble anyone!!!) Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:32 AM

All info as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike---

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Shanghaiceltic
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:12 AM

'The cats out of the bag'

Came from the practice of placing the cat o nine tails in a hessian bag after it was made by the mad who was to undergo a lashing. The cat and bag would be handed over to the bosun's mate who would keep it until the punishment started and took the cat out of the bag. A sign of something nasty about to happen.

Kept it clean and ready for use. They were only ever used once, how hygenic can you get.

'No room to swing a cat'

Definately connected with the above. One needed room so the cat could be whipped back and brought down on the offender.

'Rubbing salt into the wound'

Following the lashing salt was rubbed into the mans' back, a cheap form of antiseptic not an additional punishment.

'Ship shape and Bristol fashion'

Bristol in Avon was a major sea port for the Atlantic trade. They prided themselves on running and maintining their ships so they would survive the sea crossings.

'Navy cut' as in tobacco. Tobacco was not normally smoked at sea on a warship, there being rather large amounts of gunpowder around.

So tobacco was rolled tightly in a canvas roll and bound, then soaked in rum and dried. Sailors would cut a 'quid' (yes that is a much used expression too) with a knife to chew. Hence Navy Cut tobacco.

Spitkids were placed throughout the ship. Woe betide the sailor who spat and missed, considered as an insult to the Crown they could end up seeing the cat come out of the bag.

'Gone doolally' Gone mad.

Comes from the time of the Raj in India where there was a mental home in a town called Dolahly (at least I think that is how it is spelt).

'A right lash up' Badly done.

After sailors were woken to come on watch on warships their hammocks had to be neatly and tighly trussed up and put in the netting around the upper gun deck. This was used as a form of protection during battle. On more modern warships when hammocks were still used again they had to be neatly and tighly trussed up for stowage. Badly trussed hammocks earnt the ire of the inspecting Chief or Petty Officers.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:16 AM

Does anyone know the origin of the expression for something being full, as "chocker block" or sometimes referred to as "chuck a block"?

I have a vague recollection that this expression originated in the lumber industry on the west coast of North America, but I have never been able to find out anything further.

Is it true that the word "golf" originated from "Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden"?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:43 AM

Chokker... and all the other meanings of the term blocked, means that there is no more 'purchase' on a double block-and-tackle, the pulley blocks are touching each other, and so the tackle must be dissembled and re-rigged. Tedious.
Do not try to explain this to someone with a blocked nose. They will have no interest.

Nippers were ships boys and when the anchor was being weighed, their job was to tie (nip) the capstan cable and the anchor cable together, and then untie it a coule of yards on and run back and do it again. And again. And again. A gang of boys.
Am I making myself clear? The anchor cable did not go around the capstan, much too thick to bend. The endless capstan cable ran alongside it and was tied to it with hundreds of temporary 'nips'.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:54 AM

"Blue blood dates back to the ancient Britons using war-paint made of blue clay called woad. If one's family tree was traceable back to 1066 and beyond, one was clearly a blue-blood. That's my story and I'm stickin;' to it, unless some research proves I am full of it!!
"

Woad isn't clay; it's a plant. It's not very good as a skin dye, and almost certainly wasn't used by the Brits, unless they were daft, which is of course perfectly possible. The Brits, if they ever did use woad, stopped shortly after the Roman invasion of 43AD. The country was Saxon (and called itself England) when Billy the Bastard invaded, over a thousand years later. And most of the uppercrustocracy dated to the invasion (very few) or afterwards- the whole purpose of the conquest was to nick the peasants from the native bosses.

Apart from that, it was reasonably accurate, so I will not comment on your faecal plenitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:00 AM

To nick, in the sense of to steal, derives from the laws governing the Derbyshire lead mines.

The mines were usually vertical shafts, with a winding gear called 'stows'. If a miner found someone else's mine that was not being worked, he could apply to the mining court, the Barmoot, to take it over. A notch or 'nick' would be cut on the stows at weekly intervals. If the original owner had not recommenced working after three weeks, the mine was 'nicked', that is confiscated and passed to the new claimant.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: rich-joy
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:18 AM

re the "Bristol fashion" expression :
I had heard it was to do with the practice of having the mooring ropes going right round the boats (under the hull) to help keep them upright during the tidal variations (I think Bristol has MAYbe the second highest tides(???), after the Bay of Fundy) ... is this not true then??!

And so now you're telling me that the tour guide on Nelson's "Victory" was "pulling my leg" too, when he gave the traditional Brass Monkey explanation to us, in 1977 ... jeez!

And I really did believe that the Ancients daubed their skin with Woad ... how silly am I?!


OK, OK, so what about "pulling my leg" - and the variation "pull the other one, it's got bells on it" - origins?


Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:37 AM

Actualy, Amos, you have to prove the blue-blood theory.

Nobody quite knows the origin of posh. The Port Out, Starboard Home has been shown to be false. A more likely theory is that it comes from Romani for money.

Doolaly is because soldiers stationed in the town of Deolal were driven mad by sunstroke.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 05:50 AM

SSSHHHEEEEUUUUHHHH! The next thing you're 'gonna tell me is that chicken's don't have lips! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Torctgyd
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 06:26 AM

"show a leg" from the petty officers on Royal Naval ships demanding proof that the occupant of the hammock in port was not a skiving sailor but his 'wife'

Brass monkey story I heard was similar except that the balls fell off brass monkies due to the differential contraction between the admirals brass monkies and the iron cannon balls when the admiral went up north. The lesser captains had wooden monkies and these didn't contract and unseat the iron balls.

Square meal definitely comes from the square plates used on RN ships (but like stiff upper lip may well have been coined in the US).

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM

That's correct Torctgyd,

Iron balls on iron monkey in a pyramid... Same rate of contraction, balls stay put.

Iron balls in a pyramid on a brass monkey... Brass contracts more than iron and squeezes the bottom layer, till a certain point is reached when the balls are explosively ejected, flying all over the gundeck.

Got that from the guide when I visited HMS Victory, and he assured me it is historically correct.

Victory, of course, carrying Nelsons flag, used brass.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Know all
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:07 PM

When people were hanged in the 16th 17th centuries....the relatives would run and grab their legs and body..putting extra weight on them so that they died quickly......hence the expression "Hangers on"

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:29 PM

Deckman, afraid Le Scaramouche is right -- even though the port-out starboard-home is an extremely popular explanation -- especially here in the UK. Catspaw wrote the following on (coincidentally) another thread dealing with the origins of the brass monkey/balls expression...

As to POSH.....I was absolutely sure it meant port-out,starboard-home until a few months back when on another thread, Sourdough pointed out the following from the American Heritage Dictionary:

"Oh yes, Mater, we had a posh time of it down there." So in Punch for September 25, 1918, do we find the first recorded instance posh, meaning "smart and fashionable." A popular theory holds that it is derived from the initials of "Port Out, Starboard Home," the cooler, and thus more expensive side of ships traveling between England and India in the mid-19th century. The acronym POSH was supposedly stamped on the tickets of first-class passengers traveling on that side of ships owned by the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company. No known evidence supports this theory, however. Another word posh was 19th- and early 20th-century British slang for "money," specifically "a halfpenny, cash of small value." This word is borrowed from the Romany word påh, "half," which was used in combinations such as påhera, "halfpenny." Posh, also meaning "a dandy," is recorded in two dictionaries of slang, published in 1890 and 1902, although this particular posh may be still another word. This word or these words are, however, much more likely to be the source of posh than "Port Out, Starboard Home," although the latter source certainly has caught the public's etymological fancy.

Bummer huh?

I found Spaw's message while searching for the following info I had posted in a different thread (but thought Spaw's info was different/interesting enough to be worth posting here again as well):

posh       Swanky. Deluxe. [A direct borrowing of the form but not the sense of Romany posh, half. Brit. Gypsies commonly, if warily, worked with Brit. rogues. Shiv, Romany for "knife", came into Eng. through this association. Similarly rum go is at root Rom go, "a Gypsy thing," hence, a queer thing. Brit. rogues came to know posh in such compounds as posh-houri, half pence, and posh-kooroona, half crown, so associating it with money, and from XVII to mid XIX posh meant "money" in thieves' cant, the sense then shifting to "swank, fashionable, expensive" ("the good things money can buy").]
       NOTE: A pervasive folk etymology renders the term as an acronym of p(ort) o(ut), s(tarboard) h(ome), with ref. to the ideal accomodations on the passage to India by way of the Suez Canal, a packet service provided by the Peninsula and Eastern steamship line. The acronym is said to explain the right placement of one's stateroom for being on the shady side or the lee side of the ship. On the east-west passage it is true, the ship being north of the sun, that the acronym will locate the shady side (though time of year will make a substantial difference). The lee side, however, is determined by the monsoon winds, and since they blow into the Asian heartland all summer and out of it all winter, only the season can determine which side will be sheltered. The earlier dating of posh as glossed above sufficiently refutes the ingenious (but too late) acronymic invention. As a clincher, veterans of the Peninsula and Eastern, questioned about the term, replied that they had never heard it in the acronymic sense.

-- from A Browser's Dictionary
   A Compendium of Curious Expressions & Intriguing Facts
   by John Ciardi (published in 1980)

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:42 PM

Well my dates were all screwed up; but yer tellin' me the ancient Briton did NOT paint himself blue with woad? I am stunned!! Bert's whole claim to fame was singing the Woad song on Mudcat Radio!!! LOL

What's the use of wearing braces,
Boots with buttons, shoes with laces
Coats and ties you buys in places
Down on Bronckton Road?
What's the use of shirts of cotton?
Studs that always get forgotten?
These affairs are simply rotten!
Better far is Woad!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:46 PM

No, we are disupting the connection with blue blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: curmudgeon
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:49 PM

Evidently, some of you who chose to ignore Kendall's comment on brass monkeys, also failed to go to the link posted by Bev and Jerry.

Fact is, nothing was ever stacked aboard a ship, except cargo in the holds. Everything on deck was tightly secured to prevent it being tossed about in high seas, especially things that rolled, like cannonballs - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:51 PM

Yes, the last thing you needed were cannonballs rolling about on deck, especially at night time.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:59 PM

Letting the cat out of the bag:

I always understood that this one came from the custom of selling a piglets in a bag at a fair. An unscrupulous seller might put a cat in the bag instead of a piglet, and so when you inspected your purchase, you may discover this secret, by letting the cat out of the bag.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:00 PM

Wickipedia Encyclopedia reports:

"The first finds of woad seeds date to the Neolithic and have been found in the French cave of l'Audoste, Bouches du Rhone (France). In the Iron Age settlement of the Heuneburg, Germany, impressions of the seeds have been found on pottery. The Hallstatt burials of Hochdorf and Hohmichele contained textiles dyed with woad. Julius Caesar tells us (de Bello Gallico) that the Britanni used to dye their bodies with woad (vitrum), which made them look terrible in battle. The Picts got their name (Latin Picti which means painted folk or possibly tattooed folk) from their practice of going into battle naked except for decorations made with woad war paint. Yet others feel that woad was used as an astringent. It produces quite a bit of scar tissue, but heals very quickly, and no blue is left behind. It may have been used specifically for closing battle wounds."


It was the Picts, then; and if you can't believe Julius Caesar, man, who CAN you believe?? :D

But I retract my assertions about woad having anything to do with "blue blood". It appears it was a Spanish brag relating to the paleness of skin and blueness of vein in pure-bred aristos:

"A translation of the Spanish sangre azul attributed to some of the oldest and proudest families of Castile, who claimed never to have been contaminated by Moorish, Jewish, or other foreign admixture; the expression probably originated in the blueness of the veins of people of fair complexion as compared with those of dark skin; also, a person with blue blood; an aristocrat."

(From "Phrase", a UK etymology website).

Sorry. But I like my woad version better even if it is fecal! LOL

A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: MMario
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:07 PM

don't know the origins - but shit does NOT come from "store high in transit" - another urban legend.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:15 PM

A few modern expressions which need no explanation, from www.despair.com:

Cluelessness
There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.

Delusions

There is no greater joy than soaring high on the wings of your dreams, except maybe the joy of watching a dreamer who has nowhere to land but in the ocean of reality.

Dreams

Dreams are like rainbows. Only idiots chase them.

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent, but you'd be a fool to withhold that from your superior.

Overconfidence

Before you attempt to beat the odds, be sure you could survive the odds beating you.

Power

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. But it rocks absolutely, too.

Pretension

The downside of being better than everyone else is that people tend to assume you're pretentious.

These guys are a crack-up!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:15 PM

Sangazure was the surname of the spoilt brat Alexis' bride in G&S's the Sorcerer.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:39 PM

Note to Guest_KnowItAll: As I heard it, that situation is the source of the phrase 'Pulling my leg'. Never checked for authenticity, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:48 PM

On checking, it seems that the phrase "You're pulling my leg" only goes back to the 1800's. It's an English reference to tripping some one as a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:26 PM

It was not 'Pull a leg' that was used on Georgian period ships but 'Show a leg' If the leg was hairy then the possibility was strong that it belonged to a sailor.

Cannon shot was never piled for reasons already given. The brass plates were flat and had circular recesses to hold the iron shot. Brass was used because brass striking iron could not make a spark.

Even in todays modern navy only brass tools are allowed in magazine areas.

Another expression not often used today is 'To have another shot left in the locker'

Refers to the use of what was called ready use lockers placed near guns to hold a small amount of powder. There was just enough in the RUL's to bring a ship to action and fire whilst the powder monkeys started their run to the magazines which were well below the water line of the ship.

'Tightwad' today has the connotation (or did have) of being tight fisted. Again it comes from the use of extra wadding used to hold the ball in place in a muzzle loading gun. Tighter wadding meant a bit less powder could be used as the seal between the powder charge and the ball in front was better and a better explosive force could be developed.

A much older expression 'to pick a quarell' goes back to the days of the crossbow. The quarrell or quareau was an armour peircing bolt used against mounted knights.

The Pope I believe at one time tried to excommunicate Richard The Lionheart because his armies used crossbows which the Pope stated were unchristian. The Lionheart was not excommunicated as he pointed out it was being used against non-christians. I am not sure of the veracity of that story. Maybe someone will know more.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:50 PM

Our friend GUEST Know All is just full of urban legends and folk etymologies, isn't (s)he?

Incidentally, any time you see an explanation of a word which makes it an acronym from some interesting story--take it with a grain of salt. No, better, take it with a POUND of salt!

The practice of referring to things by acronyms is only a development of the last ninety or so years, since about World War I, when I assume it grew out of in-group reference to the names of government boards and bureaus.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 09:41 PM

Shanghaiceltic, I believe you are right about the crossbow. There was quite a debate at the time and I believe the Genoans got into trouble over it once or twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: HuwG
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:36 PM

Also from mediaeval times: "To get on one's high horse", which nowadays means to react indignantly, or to take an agressive stance in argument.

In battle, something the size of a carthorse was required to carry a knight encased in armour (and sometimes armour for the horse also) at anything like a gallop. This was the destrier, or "high horse".

To save its strength, the destrier wasn't usually mounted until the moment of battle arrived. It was usually led by the squire or varlet, while the knight pottered along on something hardier and more willing, the ambling palfrey.

When the knight "got on his high horse", combat was imminent.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:59 PM

I've always enjoyed these threads as you can tell from the post that was quoted above. It's great to feel stupid after feeling so absolutely sure you have some secret answer that makes you look brilliant......kinda' humbling.

Snopes is an excellent site for debunking the bullshit and I love reading there. So........before it comes up here and I am already surprised it hasn't...........CLICK HERE for the Snopes page dealing with the word fuck....which is NOT an acronym.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 11:29 PM

HuwG, where did you get that from?
The armour worn in battle by knights actualy weighed less than a modern infantryman's kit and the weight was distributed evenly across his body. Surprisingly agile. Nobody would have been stupid enough to wear something like you describe had their life depended on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: rich-joy
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:22 AM

still want to know about "you're pulling my leg" origins!

but I found this to add to that old chestnut, The Brass Monkey Debate :

" HMS Victory and Greenwich used to have an educational piece as part of the tour, according to them a 'Brass Monkey' was a small brass cannon from the time of transition from bronze to iron, usually swivel mounted that used stone ball or cylinder shot, both of inconsistent size and shape. 'Freezing a brass monkey' either refered to the cannon shrinking enough that *some* shot wouldn't fit so slowing the reload, or 'Freezing the tail off a brass monkey' was the tail being the handle at the end of the gun used for aiming which reportedly broke when levering a piece around on the pivot.

Another story is apparently pawn brokers where originally known as brass monkeys and the three brass balls hung outside the shop has something to do with the idea ..."

From: "charles" (via cache on Google : USENET ARCHIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: How do they make worry balls?



cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:32 AM

As I understand it, the 3 gold balls that traditionally hang over a pawnbroker's door were taken from the di Medici coat of arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:46 AM

"it grew out of in-group reference to the names of government boards and bureaus."

More likely from the stencil marks on sides of cases.

~~~~~~~~

A medieval knight in full fighting armour, afoften ter his years of training as a squire from a young lad, could leap onto his saddle from the ground without using the stirrups. Those huge suits of thick plate armour from a much later period, ARE as heavy as all shit, and were used for only tournament jousting, and the rider was usually lifted into the saddle by means of an A-frame style of crane.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:52 PM

The myths about medievil armour just refuse to die. If only everyone had to join the Sealed Knot, or SCA or such like for a while....


The average combat load ( weight of kit etc) of fighting soldiers has remained fairly constant since at least the roman legions, if not the Greeks and before.
People can only carry so much weigh for a long period and remain combat fit, and it doesn't make much difference if you were marching with Ceaser, Wellington or todays Commanders.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:39 PM

OK folks, I did indeed exaggerate a bit about the weight of armour carried by mediaeval knights. A really full set weighed about forty-five or fifty pounds, well-distributed. (They could become hot and wearisome after a while, but for short periods at least, a fit knight could run, get up from falls or even do acrobatics.)

The horse tabard could be an unwieldy piece of kit. I don't have any weights to hand, but another fifty pounds seems about likely, if only the front of the horse was protected, or a hundred for all-round protection.

However, war-horses did have certain desirable attributes. They were usually stallions, with their own testosterone-fuelled aggressive reaction to noise and stress. They did indeed stand high, allowing the rider an extra inch or two of reach. And they were valuable, and were preserved for the moment of battle.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: lady penelope
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 06:06 PM

Woad - the blue dye comes from the leaves of the plant and not the seed (crushed seed apparently gives you a pale pink dye). The initial infusion from the leaves has to have urine added to it to make a) actually fix as blue and b) fix in the cloth that's being dyed. It takes about 1 - 2 weeks to dye a piece of cloth with woad (depending on how deep a colour you want).

Some how I don't see this as a good material for painting yerself with. There may be the possibility that it was used for tattooing depending on the fixatives that they may have used. Once woad has fixed, it's apparently quite a stable colour. But the quantity needed to make the dye (and the fact that you can only use the plant at certain times during it's two year growing cycle) would have made it reasonably precious.

TTFN Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:41 PM

Snopes also disputes the cannonball storage idea as inaccurate:

"Somebody's fanciful imagination is at work cooking up spurious etymologies again. In short, this origin for the phrase "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is nonsense because:

Not even the venerable Oxford English Dictionary, records a usage of "brass monkey" like the one presented here.

When references to "brass monkeys" started appearing in print in the mid-19th century, they did not always mention balls or cold temperatures. It was sometimes cold enough to freeze the ears, tail, nose, or whiskers off a brass monkey. Likewise, it was sometimes hot enough to "scald the throat" or "singe the hair" of a brass monkey. These usages are inconsistent with the putative origins offered here.

Warships didn't store cannonballs (or "round shot") on deck around the clock, day after day, on the slight chance that they might go into battle. Space was a precious commodity on sailing ships, and decks were kept as clear as possible in order to allow room for hundreds of men to perform all the tasks necessary for ordinary ship's functions. (Stacking round shot on deck would also create the danger of their breaking free and rolling around loose on deck whenever the ship encountered rough seas.) Cannonballs were stored elsewhere and only brought out when the decks had been cleared for action.

Particularly diligent gunners (not "masters," who were in charge of navigation, sailing and pilotage, not ordnance) would have their crews chip away at imperfections on the surface of cannonballs to make them as smooth as possible, in the hopes that this would cause them fly truer. They did not leave shot on deck, exposed to the elements, where it would rust.

Nobody really knows where the phrase "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" came from, but the explanation offered here certainly isn't the answer.

Last updated:   9 January 2001"