Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead

Subject: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: chico
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 05:55 AM

The lamentable death of King Iohn, how he was poysoned in the Abbey at Swinsted, by a false Fryer.


Is Swinestead prouncounced with a short or long "i"? (Like swine the pigs, or swin like 'win' cards?)

  A Trecherous deede forthwith I shall you tell,
  Which on King John vpon a sudden fell:
  To Lincolneshire proceeding on his way,
  At Swinestead Abby, one whole night he lay.
  

From Thomas Deloney late 16c

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 06:48 AM

Currently spelt as Swinsted. Near Grantham in Lincolnshire.

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 12:10 PM

What has it to do with Britishers?

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: Les from Hull
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 01:27 PM

Mind you, we don't pronounce words the same now as we did in the 16th century. The spelling in those days gave better clues to how we said things and including an 'e' suggestes a long i. But as you are not likely to meet many 16th century Englishmen these days, you could probably take your pick.

Anyway - who are you calling 'scurvy'? Remember it was our Royal Navy's use of anti-scorbutics that defeated scurvy (and got our sailors called 'limeys') when sailors of less fortunate nations were spitting teeth with monotonous regularity.

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 01:52 PM

Wasn't King John 12th-13th c.? Well before the British Navy used anti-scorbutics, so the sailors could well have been scurvy.

John died of dysentary in 1216; the poisoning is fiction. Makes a better story, though.

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 02:08 PM

Les from Hull is correct about pronunciation. It took people like Cotgrave (in Shakespeare's day) and Johnson to standardize spelling.
We have few clues to how the language sounded centuries ago; spelling is one of them. Even so, the dictionaries largely ignored speech from areas outside of the southeast of the island.

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 02:16 PM

There are a lot of letters and reports from the Borders, which are spelt phonetically.
The Royal Navy was NOT the only one to use anti-scorbutics.

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: GUEST,Orc
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 12:53 PM

Swine ( AKA hog, or pig ) - as in 'wine', 'crime' etc; and, Stead (AKA place, standing, town, ville ) as in 'dead'.

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 01:07 PM

On modern spelling, it would be pronounced "Swin-sted". Assuming the spelling is accurate for period, it would most likely be pronounced "Swin-eh-sted".

The rule for Englisc (pre-Norman) spelling is that all letters are voiced. Hence, cniht (the original of knight) would be ku-nite, & write would be wu-reet-ah.

Swine-sted is extremely unlikely as a pronunciation. Although you are suggesting early 13thC for period, the chances are that, for that name, the Englisc is still current.

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 02:18 PM

I'd tend to voice the "h" in cniht as a gutteral, but that's by the by. Deloney was writing in the second half of the 16th century (the date of the events he was describing is beside the point), but "Raedwulf"s suggestion doesn't seem unlikely, even if based on much earlier usage; though the "i" may have been slightly elongated: not as far as "sween", but in that direction. Mind you, that's based on my recollection of being taught approximate "period" pronounciations as a student 30 years ago. Might be way off.

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: chico
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 02:57 PM

Thanks for the responses. The scruvy comment is entirely based on the fact the thread will get more attention and thus hopefully more responses.

However I still have 3 different answer to the 'i' sound. Misprouncing a place name like that could ruin the song for anyone who knows it properly.

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM

Ideally, you ought to ask the oldest Grantham native you can find how it was pronounced by his grandfather's generation.

Subject: RE: Scurvy Britishers: pronounce Swinestead
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:04 PM

The question is, how did Deloney expect it to be pronounced? I don't think that he was from those parts himself. Actually, so long as you avoid "swine" as in "pig", it really doesn't matter which of the other alternatives you go for so long as it fits the music and your own voice. The quest for accuracy is admirable, but it is possible to take it all too far.