Origins: Leaving of Liverpool

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 03:22 PM

Oh and 100!

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 04:32 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa0KBosXB34http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa0KBosXB34
oh and 101

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: mayomick
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:32 PM

People have been tracing the song/s mostly through the lyric/s.Would anybody have any ideas on musical antecedents ? Does it sound like an Irish tune ? To my ear the Liverpool tune - I haven't heard the Limerick one- sounds very slightly like The Boys of Wexford in the chorus.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 11:27 PM

Regarding the tune, it's notable that most performers sing certain, significant "wrong" notes, i.e. if we are in the key of C, they are singing the note A in 2 places they should be singing B. In no way am I suggesting there is only one "right" way to do things -- rather, just noting that the one authentic source for the song, Doerflinger's transcription of Maitland, is one way, whereas some early revivalist (Dubliners or whoever) changed it to the way nearly everyone does now. In sum: not much relevance from an artistic standpoint since art is as art does, but relevant if one is exploring "origins," where one needs to carefully check the primary source!

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 09:20 PM

capt john burgess lived in somerset massachusetts usa his house still stands on main st

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: BobKnight
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 11:43 AM

For a brilliant version of "Leaving Limerick" check out the version by Muireann Nic Amhlaodh, which she sang on Transatlantic Sessions, series five, episode five. Best thing on the entire series so far in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 09:57 AM

The video BobKnight refers to is on Youtube HERE - run the timer on to about 13 mins and you'll pick it up.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 01:26 PM

Turns out Doerflinger collected a *second* version of "The Leaving of Liverpool." It was sung by Captain Patrick Tayleur, one of his best informants.

Go here for the article by Steve Winick. Scroll to Page 3:

http://www.loc.gov/folklife/news/pdf/FCN_Vol30_3-4optimized.pdf

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Greg B
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:06 PM

I had the honor of co-hosting Bill Doerflinger's final singing party at his house in Convent Station, NJ., as well as shuttling him everywhere from New York to Mystic during his later years; we were practically neighbors.

He was a very open-minded gent, but he was a stickler for detail. He transcribed his collections exactly as rendered. At the same time, he recognized that his sources' memories might not be perfect. None the less, he left it for the rest of us to figure out.

(BTW, he essentially ghost-wrote Woody Guthrie's "Bound for Glory." Woody himself was in no condition. Indeed, his final decline began when he was found wandering on highway 24, just a couple of miles from Bill's house, where he'd stayed for a while during the writing of the auto-biography.)

Anyway, as the grandson of a Lancashire family, I always am amused when New Yorkers, as fiercely loyal to Bill as can be, make known their objections to "my darlin' when I think on thee."

Bill never sought such loyalty; he just reported what he heard or recorded. He was a scholar above all else.

If Cpt. Dick Maitland ever mis-remembered anything, it was likely this. My Grandma and Papa, as well as their siblings, said "thee" and "thou" even in their new home, California, in the 1960's. Well, they said "Tha'rt" (you are) and "Thou'wt" (you have or you should) more often than "thee" or "thou."

The idea that a Midlands sailor would say "darling when I think on thee" is incredibly obvious to those of us who grew up hearing one of the Midlands dialects.

It's the single rhyme failure in the whole of the lyrics.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:59 PM

Interesting, Greg.

Tayluer's version *also* has "you" where "thee" would rhyme.

Except for the chorus, Tayluer's words differ considerably from Maitland's. Since they both lived at Sailors' Snug Harbor, I wonder if T could have picked up the chorus from M.

Winick's 2008 article is essential reading for anyone interested in "The Leaving of Liverpool," Doerflinger, or the collecting of American sea songs in general.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Greg B
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 07:40 PM

I fine article it is! I'd suggest the other way 'round... that Maitland may have gotten his chorus from Tayluer (who was born in Maitland!).

My reasoning is that Matiland's version, which he purportedly overheard being sung by a sailor in the fo'c's'le, is a forebitter... no chorus required. Tayluer specifically identifies his version as a hauling chantey.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 08:46 PM

Could be. Maitland's versions often sound highly improvisatory.

But in this case, less so than Tayluer's.

We'll never know. But somebody extensively "rewrote" the lyrics in an authentically traditional way. (Nothing as "poetic" as the Clancys' "The sun is on the harbor, love....")

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Greg B
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 04:38 PM

It's rather frustrating that only the catalog entries of the original Tayluer and Maitland recordings are available on-line, and that the recordings are not, for example, on YouTube.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 07:58 AM

Greg and Lighter-

Always interesting to get further updates.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:58 AM

For a full recording of Deirdre Scanlon singing Leaving of Limerick

Click here

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:01 AM

That the "Limerick" song may be older is suggested by the presence of "of you," which recurs in "Liverpool" in spite of the rhyming requirement.

It's no more than a suggestion. However, one might expect a post-1941 lyricist to have preferred the presumably more "romantic" "thee."

(Romantic for folksong aficionados, that is.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:44 PM

Please does anyone have the dots for Deirdre Scanlon,s version of The
Leaving of Limerick.The tune is causing mild "disharmony" in our household as my other half and I seem to be hearing different things.Thank You

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 May 20 - 04:28 AM

From: Lighter Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:59 PM Except for the chorus, Tayluer's words differ considerably from Maitland's. Since they both lived at Sailors' Snug Harbor, I wonder if T could have picked up the chorus from M.

According to Library of Congress editor Stephen Winick, "The Leaving of Liverpool" was first collected by Doerflinger from Maitland, whose repertoire he recorded at Sailors' Snug Harbor in Staten Island from 1938 to 1940. In early 1942, Doerflinger found another version sung by a retired sailor named Patrick Tayluer, who was living at the Seamen's Church Institute at the South Street Seaport in Manhattan.

Winick, Stephen "Sung With Gusto by the Men": A Unique Recording of "The Leaving of Liverpool" in the AFC Archive. Wikipedia

The buildings of Snug Harbor remain an impressive sight; they are considered an incomparable remnant of New York's 19th-century seafaring past.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 May 20 - 04:35 AM

BBC Radio 4 Today programme, Saturday 16 May 2020

The show must go on; the programme ended with 'Liverpudlian' Jim Moray singing The Leaving of Liverpool.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 16 May 20 - 04:48 AM

Yea, I've told Jim he'll have to work on his accent if the media are going to refer to him as 'Liverpudlian', although he does now live in Liverpool...
Derek

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 16 May 20 - 08:23 AM

Hi does anyone know where I can find the dots or abc of "Leaving of Limerick"?

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 May 20 - 08:47 AM

I can't find notation, but perhaps the following will help someone:

https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/muireann-nic-amhlaoibh/the-leaving-of-limerick-chords-2481674

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:11 AM

"Yea, I've told Jim he'll have to work on his accent if the media "
Don't forget he needs passport too Derek we're quite fussy there
I can remember when the Beatles ht the fan - there were more mid-Scouse accents around than there were Mid-Atlantic ones
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Lighter
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:16 AM

Henryp, thanks for the correction.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 May 20 - 04:53 PM

Thank you, Lighter. I'm not sure when this came to light.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:26 AM

dots! dots!- this is folk music, don't be b... ridiculous!!-

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,TM
Date: 27 May 23 - 08:07 AM

The Assembly Mall mentioned in the Limerick song was demolished in 1820/20. It was rebuilt as Charlotte's Quay in the 1820s. This suggests thee Limerick song is pre 1820 and much older than the Liverpool song.

The other locations mentioned in the Limerick song still survive.

Limerick Strand is now Clancy's Strand renamed after the Mayor of Limerick George Clancy murdered by british auxilaries during the war of independence.
Gabbets Grove is now known as The Grove and is situated in the Corbally suburb of Limerick.
Thomondgate is an area of Limerick directly opposite Limerick Castle.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,JeffB
Date: 27 May 23 - 05:30 PM

Then there's The Bolton Apprentice. Pretty much the same tune


1 Oh when I was apprenticed in Bolton Town at fourteen years of age,
    oh I never thought I would sail the seas till they paid me a living wage.

Chorus           So fare thee well my Princes Dock, and when I return united       we will be.
   It’s not the leaving of Liverpool that grieves me but my darling when I think of thee.

2   Now the very first voyage that I ever sailed was to California’s Golden Gate,
    And then I seemed to bid the world farewell as in Bolton Town I had to wait.

3   The work it was hard, the hours were long, as you’re cruising round the Forties again,
    and there was I still thinking of you when we were becalmed by Spain.

4    Now one of these days I’m going to pack up my bags and I’ll never go to sea no more;
    I’ll leave the dock by the Gladstone Gate and soon you’ll hear me knocking at your door.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 15 Aug 23 - 03:42 AM

https://youtu.be/DNVTzDg08jE

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 06:59 PM

The diction of "The Bolton Apprentice" strongly suggests (I'll go further: "shows") that the song is a latter-day spin-off.

In other words, 1960s or later.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 07:08 PM

Very surprisingly, the link I posted long ago to Winick's article no longer seems to work, though it does take you to the Library of Congress site.

But the article does seem to be downloadable here:

https://marine-cafe.com/download/sung-with-gusto-by-the-men-a-unique-recording-of-the-leaving-of-liverpool-article-by-stephen-d-

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 04:39 AM

You sing it how you like that is the nature of the beast [trad music]

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 04:39 AM

You sing it how you like that is the nature of the beast [trad music]

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 06:59 PM

The diction of "The Bolton Apprentice" strongly suggests (I'll go further: "shows") that the song is a latter-day spin-off.

In other words, 1960s or later.

Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 07:08 PM

Very surprisingly, the link I posted long ago to Winick's article no longer seems to work, though it does take you to the Library of Congress site.

But the article does seem to be downloadable here:

https://marine-cafe.com/download/sung-with-gusto-by-the-men-a-unique-recording-of-the-leaving-of-liverpool-article-by-stephen-d-