95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:52 AM

The actual point is that lizziecornish could have spent 10 minutes out of the past 24 hours wielding a power drill and screwdriver to affix a rail herself at minimal or zero cost as a temporary solution. And then another 10 minutes making an application for a walk-in shower to be installed which would be undoubtedly safer. It wouldn't even need a device to heat the water if all the hot air being generated were to be harnessed and would be, thus, highly energy efficient.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:13 AM

Oh dear, do I hear chortling and gleeful hand rubbing.

Not from me you don't. It's the old lady I feel sorry for. She deserves better.

My mum had the bath lift option and she loved it. It does need another person there but an old lady would.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:25 AM

"The second is that Lizzie (IMHO) does have previous as far as rants are concerned and sometimes her version of the truth is not always to be believed. Thus people - frankly including me - are wary of what she posts. "



It will be on BBC local news, either tonight, or tomorrow night, in their 6.30pm slot. Also on Radio Devon too, although I've no idea what time...as John, who did the interview, has to film it, write it up, edit it, put it on radio and tv all himself.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:27 AM

"Bath handles, which were deemed appropriate in East Devon are deemed not to be so in Torbay"

Perhaps that should be bath handles, which were deemed appropriate for one person in East Devon are deemed not to be so for a different person, with potentially a completely different state of overall fitness, in Torbay.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:39 AM

Good for you Lizzie.

it will be on BBC local news, either tonight, or tomorrow night, in their 6.30pm slot. Also on Radio Devon too, although I've no idea what time...as John, who did the interview, has to film it, write it up, edit it, put it on radio and tv all himself.

Shame it wasn't live though. As anyone who does it will tell you - there is nothing like the immediacy of a live broadcast.

When you say local news and Radio Devon - i assume you mean TV news.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:55 AM

Your fifteen minutes fame Lizzie.. How exciting!

Is it on BBC Radio, or the telly?
BBC Radio Devon??

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Maryrrf
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:10 AM

I have to admit to cringing whenever a Brit complains publicly about the NHS. I'm always afraid it will end up on Fox News, or in some Republican's speech, or that it will be picked up by one of the right wing radio talk show hosts and trumpeted, twisted, and propagandized as yet more evidence that the public health option would be a complete disaster.   

There are many of us in the US that would love to have the NHS or an equivalent comprehensive system that wouldn't let us down if we lose our jobs, don't work for a big enough company, get sick, can't pay the extortionate insurance premiums, etc. The NHS might not be perfect, but it seems to do okay by most people. That said, I hope this elderly lady gets taken care of by whatever means, and wish her well.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:27 AM

DMc G suggested

"Bath handles, which were deemed appropriate in East Devon are deemed not to be so in Torbay"

Perhaps that should be bath handles, which were deemed appropriate for one person in East Devon are deemed not to be so for a different person, with potentially a completely different state of overall fitness, in Torbay.


    Errm, no, it was the same person, Lizzies mother in law Vi, who lived in Sidmouth ( part of East Devon Council) and now lives in Torquay, part of Torbay Council. The implication being that she has been sen to need the handles....but the new council are less willing to pay.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:30 AM

Ok, I misunderstood that one.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:42 AM

SINS... the government is doing that here too... passing laws which are too generalized because that's about all they CAN do. Then, a government employee has to follow/interpret those laws. As everyone knows, the first rule in modern survival is Cover Your Ass. So... they do. That is when the problems start.

I am now told that if I want to make a basement apartment, I must provide a separate access with a one hour fire separation and I must provide a one hour fire separation between floors. I told the lad that the egress calculations for my design were 22 seconds for the basement and 12 seconds for the main floor. Doesn't matter. I told him I was gonna build it anyway and the only way the city would get their building permit money was if he issued the permit. He said that I would be liable to fines and might be estopped from renting.

I said there was a little known common law term that would allow me to proceed to improve the existing building. He said that there was no provision for any "Grandfather Clause" or anything else he knew of. I asked, "Have you ever heard of "Common sense." or "Go fuck yourself?"

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:46 AM

Of course the woman in question may now be more infirm than when handles were fitted in her other home earlier or have a different design of bath!

Far too many unknowns to come to any decision re appropiateness or otherwise of the aide.

Myself I would tend to trust the 'expert's' decision (which did not seem to be based on cost but on her training as an OT) but, if I was prepared to take the risk with someone else's safety, fit one myself - they are readily available.

This version is not cheap but readily fitted to most baths is adjustable in height and being screwed to the floor is also very sturdy.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:50 AM

Dear MtheGM;
If you are referring to me when you state
***Those who keep asserting that OTs from Social Services are the only people involved, anywhere, nationwide, & the NHS have nothing to do with it, clearly haven't read my last post. It obviously varies according to area. Round here, in Cambs, it is the District Nursing service, part of NHS, who are responsible. & a fine job they do too.***
then let me clarify. I worked in the NHS for nearly 20 years, including twice leading a team comissioning and setting up a service for the provision of equipment for care at home. You clearly haven't read my post either; I made it very clear that OTs are employed by both NHS and Social Services, and either could be involved in doing the assessment, depending on circumstances. The District Nurses in Cambridgeshire DO NOT hold the budget for equipment. They carry out assessments of need, and the equipment is provided by a service which is either wholly Social Services run (most often) or a joint Social Services/NHS operation (increasingly rare, as these hybrids don't work very well.) It could be argued that this District Nurse assessment system is not ideal, as research suggests that OT input is crucial in getting the solution right.
A wider point; there is an argument that this should all come under the control of the NHS, but this is not possible because of the largely artificial division between 'health' care (which is free) and 'social' care (which is means tested and not free). It's a nonsense; who is responsible for the split? Step forward former Thatcher pin-up boy John Moore, aided and abetted by current Shadow Cabinet member Ken Clarke.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 12:45 PM

Thank you for the clarification, Tim. Pragmatically, as you will gather, the Visiting Nurses' assessment worked very well for us, & whoever was i/c the budget clearly trusted them & promptly delivered what they recommended.
Michael

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 01:59 PM

Gnu-Don't know where you are, but I'd think long and hard about either doing work on a rental unit without the building permit, or doing work that doesn't comply with the fire code.

Your "lad" told you, and it is perfectly true, that they can fine you, and stop you from renting, but he seems not to have mentioned that they can and will compel you to remove the non-complying work, and replace it with work that is up to code--at which point you will be wisest to hire a licensed and bonded contractor, because they will be scrupulously attentive to regulation, and if a contractor's work fails inspection, the contractor has to make it good, and if you fail inspection, you have to make good--

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:11 PM

Any British citizen who thinks they have a bad deal with Britain's national health care system ought to spend a little time trying to deal with the American health care non-system. A few encounters with health insurance companies, and they'd be back to hugging and adoring NHS, no matter what its occasional warts may (or may not) be.

The whole story as presented strikes me as missing a lot of facts and is heavily overlaid with anger, but having to install a couple of grab-bars in the bath yourself is a lot less life-threatening than having an insurance company you've paid large premiums to for years denying treatment for breast cancer on the basis of a "previous condition" (teenage acne).

You think I'm kidding? It's happened!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:28 PM

MTed - I may be wrong but I believe gnu owns the house and is building a rental apartment in the basement. Too bad you didn't just "renovate" the basement and then decide to rent it.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:50 PM

SINS... I am exploring all avenues... >;-). Fact is, onerous laws can and WILL be circumvented with common sense.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:08 PM

Yup - I hired a non NYC contractor.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:44 PM

Where is Lizzie then?

She hasn't chained herself to a fence has she, or been locked up?

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 04:37 PM

They'd have made him put the fire doors in anyway--Sin-and, more than likely, he'll have to provide a second means of egress for the basement, in addition to the private entrance.

You crack me up, Gnu--"onerous"! I love that. I can't wait to hear you explain that the fire codes are onerous to a municipal judge. They tend to differ, and, while no one person's word is law, they come awful close-

Just remember that those fire codes are intended to protect people's lives(yours included), and so people who try to get around them aren't regarded as benevolent public citizens.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 05:51 PM

gnu, M.Sc.Eng., P.Eng.

Well over $250M of contracts under my belt.

34 years studying engineering, construction, law and codes.

And I KNOW bullshit when I see it. Fact is, the law is a guideline. Common sense will always prevail. I, as an engineer who participates in writing the codes, interpreting the codes, and enforcing the codes know that codes and laws are guidelines.

When there is a question, such as I have raised, regarding the misinterpretation of common sense, it is my right to appeal to good practice and due diligence and support my arguements if they are subject to bullshit.

Been there, done that, goin back to the well.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 06:37 PM

Err . and I can be as guilty as anyone - thread drift gentlemen.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:02 PM

Villan said

Where is Lizzie then?

She hasn't chained herself to a fence has she, or been locked up?


Funny, innit, Lizzie fires back immediately and at length, and you all cry 'the thead's been Lizzied'.

She does as you ask, and observes a decent pause, and you cry'where is she, how dare you deprive me of my lizzie bashing fix'

One thing or the other, eh!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: kendall
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:20 PM

I'm curious; who told the poor old woman that she couldn't have a bath?

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:29 PM

No No No
I will not respond.
I won't. I won't. I won't.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:31 PM

Please let us know how it turns out, Gnu.--and, what it all ends up costing you. I should have figured that you were an engineer;-)

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jeddy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:49 PM

by no means am i lizzie bashing here.
it just seems to me to more about lizzie getting what she wants instead of vi getting what she needs.

for example, just because they would not fit handles have they recommended another agency take over vi's plight?

we have seen here that the handles requested might not be up to the task but we have not been told by lizzie if anything else was suggested.

it is very annoying when something that is needed does not get provided.
however i am sure there are better ways of getting this information than shouting and swearing at someone.

i am feeling sorry for the woman who was subjected to this ranting.
it must have been very intimidating to be in someones home on your own and to be set upon like that, from what we have been told she handled herself with dignity and more patience than i would have had.

lizzie, i hope that you get something that will help, there have been suggestions galore here.
maybe look into finding a product yourself and seeing whether the local council or social services can help pay and install it for you?

dealing with the red tape people (i would have called them buerotcrats, but i can't spell it) is never easy and you will find that you have to do most of the chasing. but you have to rememeber that most councils have been restricted money wise. and cannot help everyone the way that the employees would like to.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jeddy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:50 PM

no pun intended there!!!!!!!

j x x x

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:39 AM

Tug The Cox, I am very keen to hear how Lizzie got on and as she is passionate about her cause, she could have so easily have done something like chaining or even getting arrested :-)

So lets hear how you got on Lizzie and hopefully you have won for your Mother In Law.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:41 AM

Lizzie - I am so, so, so sorry - I came to take piccies of the lift last night and found out the lift has, unbeknowns to me, been promised elsewhere. Big public apology for letting you down and PM on it's way.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:08 AM

I guess the issue here is how you go about getting the things for your loved ones.

Lizzie lost her rag and chose to go to the Radio and TV.

When I was faced with a problem concerning my elderly parents some 8/9 years ago, I chose not to involve the papers/radio/TV. They were 85 and 86 at the time.

My parents had been married for 65 years. My father was unable to look after my mother anymore and unfortunately she had to go into a nursing home, which broke my father up very badly as you would imagine. Phone calls every night to me crying and very distraught. I was so concerned for his health and was deeply distressing for me as well.

The XXXXXXX City Council refused to find a Residential/Nursing home so that my father could be with her. They wouldn't even take any calls from me, begging them to be caring about my parents human rights.

So I went onto the internet to search for a human rights lawyer. Through that route, I found a highly recommended Human Rights lawyer in Birmingham who was considered to be the tops. As my parents didn't have sufficient funds to pay for her services, the lawyer took my dads case on for free.

One letter from this lawyer, had them phoning me up, to see what they could do to get my parents back together.

I found a nursing home up in Lincoln near me that was Residential/Nursing and had a double room they could have.

One phone call to the council was sufficient to have them moved up to Lincoln.

I did not rant and rave at the people who decide these matters or go to the press and it was all sorted within a month, although the move took a bit longer due to all the paperwork (its a wonder we have any trees left, with the amount of paperwork involved).

I could have had it splattered all over the press, but my concern was for my parents and I did not want to cause them any more stress than was necessary.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:35 AM

I have been known to go to the press but usually as a last resort. The problem with complaining to the press is that you cannot control what they say and how they edit. In the BBC's case they will almost certainly have to provide balance and the "other side" may give a totally different view.

With my own mother, who sadly died in 2003 the clue to getting things done (IMHO) was establishing her right to Attendance Allowance.

All sorts of entitlement follow from that and a (local council) OT soon got her all the aids she needed starting with a wheelchair. It was soon easy to get a disabled badge for my car which enabled us to take her out a lot more. She had a bath lift and so on.

And she could afford all sorts of things that she was always worried about before and which saved me a lot of trouble, in particular the garden. By doing this she was able to live on her own right until she died.

I worked through a welfare rights officer.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:54 AM

No updates from LC? I just wanted to hear the radio piece... :-(

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:10 AM

"by no means am i lizzie bashing here.
it just seems to me to more about lizzie getting what she wants instead of vi getting what she needs."

No, it is me trying my best to stand up for not just Vi, but for all the other elderly people who, bit by bit, are being pushed aside, by a system that is more and more refusing to care for us all as they once did.

And meanwhile, the Corporate NHS bastards sit in their plush offices, entertaining medical reps galore, living off the fat of little 95 year old ladies, who they've cut back on.

Well, let them cut back on themselves first! Let the NHS get rid of way too many managers and let the money go where it's supposed to go, to the PATIENTS!

This is about principle, morals, caring, compassion...and the more we cease to fight, the more we will all be treated in this way!



"for example, just because they would not fit handles have they recommended another agency take over vi's plight?"

She was advised to buy the handles, or seat, herself and then contact Age Concern who'd fit them for her, for free.


"we have seen here that the handles requested might not be up to the task but we have not been told by lizzie if anything else was suggested."

Yes, Kate suggested a seat that goes on the top of the bath, you need handles put on the bath too for that, to enable you to get in and out.
Vi wanted handles on the wall, as she's always had. After spending a very long time explaining to Vi about the benefits of the seat, she then took her back to her room and told her that she was not eligible for *any* help at all, because she didn't fit The New Criteria.

"it is very annoying when something that is needed does not get provided."

Yes, but sometimes, it is way beyond that. It is WRONG!"

"however i am sure there are better ways of getting this information than shouting and swearing at someone."

I did NOT swear at Kate, nor did I shout at *her*...but I did let off steam..apologising first for doing so, because I know she is just 'the messenger' here and not the unfeeling Fatcatprat who makes these decisions whilst subtracting pounds here and there from his 'Abacus of Human Resources Who Do Not Matter Anymore'



"i am feeling sorry for the woman who was subjected to this ranting.
it must have been very intimidating to be in someones home on your own and to be set upon like that, from what we have been told she handled herself with dignity and more patience than i would have had."

Kate ASKED me to go to the Top! She ASKED me to take this further! She bloody well came round, 15 minutes later with all the details, so that I could do EXACTLY that! She said..."We KNEW this would happen eventually. We KNEW it would just be a matter of time"

Just because *I* am the one who blew my top, does not make me a bad person, jade! I come from a very different generation, it is one that knows what Vi's generation has been through, heck, my own FATHER would have been the same age, were he still alive today.

When Dad was ill, and he lived with me too at the end of his life, he had a District Nurse who came round, free of charge, to bathe him and care for him in a 'personal' manner. All patients did, every single patient in this Land of mine! Alison became a friend to him, he looked forward to her visits. It was a social thing as much as a medical one.

Shortly after Dad died, 'they' withdrew the District Nurses from doing this, giving it to the private sector.

Nowadays you so often have staff in to bathe and dress people who don't give a shite. They're paid crap wages by companies who are 'just in it for the money'....and they cut corners, won't do anything unless it's down on their job description etc.etc.etc...and the patients have to pay for it all.

If you give up, if you keep letting this slip and that slip away, then eventually you will end up with nothing!

If I had not been there, Vi would have apologised for being a nuisance and bought the handles herself from her pension.

Sorry, but why the fuck should she?

For the NHS to tell a 95 year old lady that she has to carry on standing up to wash, rather than helping her to have a bath, by assessing her getting in and out of the bath (which was NOT done, btw) then seeing what they could do to help, is appalling.

And meanwhile..the Fatcatprats grin their 'Cheshire' grins....and lap up the cream from the money they've just saved from yet another little old lady bewildered and apologetic, who has, through no choice of her own, given in.


"lizzie, i hope that you get something that will help, there have been suggestions galore here.
maybe look into finding a product yourself and seeing whether the local council or social services can help pay and install it for you?"

Torbay Care Trust IS my local council Jade, they are one of the few Health Trusts/Social Services, linked in the Council in the way they are....They ARE the Social Services..

They should rename themselve 'Torbay We Don't Give A Shit Trust' as it would be far more fitting.

For yours and everyone else's information, the Fatcatprats won't even stop licking their cream long enough to talk to the BBC. ALL they will ever do is issue a statement saying they cannot commnet on individual cases and follow that with the rules for 'The New Criteria' and that is as close as they will come to 'discussing' ANYTHING with the BBC.

Corrupt?

You betcha!!!

What are they so afraid of? WHY won't they talk to the BBC?

AND for your information....


Do you know that GPs are actually paid BONUSES to NOT refer you on to a Specialist?   

Yup, isn't that wonderful!

HOW do I know this?

Well, the man who came round yesterday to interview me told me his own story.

He damaged his knee playing football. He went to his GP and was told it was badly bruised but it would soon get better. It didn't. He went back FIVE times, and luckily for him, on the final visit he saw a Locum, who, without even touching his knee told him that he had probably torn a ligament, because of how he described the pain. He referred him to a Specialist immediately and within days, he was having his knee operated on, by wonderful staff who cared for him marvellously.

A few months later his boss asked him to cover the story of GPs getting paid bonuses to NOT refer patients...

One of the women I work with has a 14 year old daughter who has severe dyspraxia. Her daughter was highly premature, weighing just over one pound at birth. Amazingly, she survived, against all odds...
Over the past few years (YEARS) she has had fainting fits, where she loses consciousness, falls down and her lips go blue.

Has she been referred to a Specialist?

Nope.

Her mother has been told over and again that it's 'just her age' and it will pass.

Well, she did it again last week, at school...and they could barely bring her round, took them longer than normal. They called her mother, rather than an ambulance, and yet again, her mother was told by her GP that it was nothing to worry about.

She now knows the story I learnt yesterday and is so flamingly mad...I've told her she must INSIST that her daughter is now fully investigated, as she should have been years back.

The more you give in, the more you keep quiet, the more you believe in 'musn't grumble' way of life, the more they will shite all over you!

GRUMBLE!
And grumble so bloody loud that they can here you inside the Houses of Parliament, where they'll start to shake in their Cutthroats, Crooks & Conmen Designer Shoes!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:24 AM

'Get the story right!

GPs do NOT personally gain from reducing referral rates to secondary care. Any money saved (NOT achieved by stopping patients who need to see a see a specialist from seeing him/her but by reducing unnecessary follow ups) can be used to improve patient care eg by purchasing physiotherapy services so patients can be seen more rapidly. The purchasing process is rigorously controlled by the PCT.'

A comment to the Daily Mail following their 'scare' story on this

How sick! GPs paid bonus to NOT send you to hospital

How sad! Some people NEVER read past the headlines

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:44 AM

Difficult to know where to start with that one Lizzie; do you ever bother to check facts, as opposed to hearsay and innuendo? You are setting yourself up here as a sort of crusading hero who us going to expose the wrongs of our society. Could I respectfully recommend you read Don Quixote before doing so?
Most of that last tirade was simply foolish nonsense, but responsible care organisations will now have to devote scarce time and resources to answering your allegations. Since the allegations are without foundation, what do you suppose you have achieved?
Perhaps an example would serve to show the silliness. You make great play of the 'overmanaged' NHS (despite being told several times that this issue is not an NHS responsibility, even in Torbay). The argument goes; Most people would agree that large, profitable companies like Tesco, Sainsburys or Marks and Spencers are well run, and therefore it is reasonable to suppose that they have a suitable balance between operational and managerial staff. If we do like-for-like comparisons, these companies spend between 12% and 13.5% of their paybill on management. (Tesco is the lowest, M&S the highest, on 2008 figures). Allegedly 'efficient' American private healthcare spends about 19% on management. The NHS spends about 7.5% at most on management when compared like-for-like. Add to that the fact that NHS managerial salaries are on average 15% lower than private sector managers with equivalent responsibilities. I hold no brief to defend the NHS, but it's important to get the facts straight (unless you write for/read the Daily Mail, of course).
Interestingly, the Tories were proposing yesterday to cut admin jobs in the NHS. Note; admin jobs, not admin functions. The effect of this is that the amount of admin work will not change, but will have to be done by clinical staff (who don't usually have the skills)rather than backroom staff. A specific effect would be that the rant above would have to be investigated and replied to by an Occupational Therapist who might have been better employed re-assessing Vi's needs. We've been through this before in the early 80's when the Tories cracked down on Ward Clerks; this meant that Sister had to do all the admin, at a much higher rate of pay.
Lizzie, please re-read some of the above posts, calm down and start doing things that will actually help Vi to get what she needs.
Tim

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:53 AM

Correct me if I am wrong , but surely the NHS is there for MEDICAL matters and the accessibility of washing facilities is NOT a Medical
concern . Thus the provision of Bath Handles , walk in showers and suchlike woud be Social Srvice , NOT N H S .
My Mother had a similar problem with getting in and out of her bath , so the Social Services assessed her and the bath was removed and a walk in shower installed at NO cost to my mother .
Admittedly , this was in a Council Flat , not a privately owned place .

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:11 AM

In defence of Lizzie, I used to live in Torbay and these people she refers to are just a bunch of ********.

I had many issues with my Autistic daughter and getting the right support etc.

In the end we moved up to Lincolnshire becuase we couldn't seem to knock these deadhead bozos into accepting their responsibilties. Their heads are firmly stuck up their A**** and they do not have the funds.

We have had excellent support since moving up to Lincolnshire. OK we have still had to fight our case, but you expect to do that theses days.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:30 AM

lizzie, i see where you are coming from, i really do. i guess i don't fully understand because things don't work that way round here.

my other half is on DLA, so whenever we ask for help it is USUALLY there. however when we were going through a particualarly bad time we were referred to a damn care worker when what was needed was a shrink.
this to get an appointment we had to wait about 4 months. after that we had to wait another 2/3 months to see a shrink. this was down to red tape.

so believe me i understand your frustration.

could you see if something lie watchdog will take this up?
or contact a solicitor like someone here suggested?

when i said it must be intimidating to be ranted at, i am only using the words you yourself used in your first post.

what i did not know was that you are in private housing, it should not matter of course but it seems to.

i think the main problem is local councils have different criteria for things, what you will get in one place with no fuss, you have to fight tooth and nail for somewhere else.

is vi registered with age concern or some sort of carer service?

what i was trying to put accross is although some service should be helping you with looking after vi, getting these handles or a seat can be sorted without a battle. once she is sorted you are then free to get get compensated by the authorites.

have you asked your local doctors if they can help with renting or the loan of a chair to help you out.
our doctors has all sorts of things to loan, but i don't know exactly what as we had no need for anything from them(fingers crossed we won't for ages yet).

there are alot of charities out there just waiting for you to ask for help, maybe if your doctors can't help, they may be able to reccomend somewhere.

i am only interested in trying to hep vi for the time being, once she is sorted i will agree that things are getting out of hand when it comes to assisting those in need.

i really hope the going to the press, embarasses the social services or the council to do something for her, my worry is they will shut down even further.

i wish you every luck in getting this sorted for her.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:03 AM

heir heads are firmly stuck up their A**** and they do not have the funds.

I wonder how much of this comes from tradition to a certain extent. The area where Lizzie lives has always been a "Tory" area with the individual at the centre of things and responsible for themselves. The main priority has (it seems to me) to be been saving ratepayers money.

I would think they have a number of retired people down there, more than for example in Sheffield.

The other thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that we baby boomers are now getting a lot older. There will be greater demand for services. Full satisfaction will be achieved by spreading the jam more thinly (buy and fit your own handles) or cuts (no handles), cuts elsewhere (e.g. no free TV licence) or or higher taxes.

You might have to make that choice next year.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:15 AM

'Get the story right!

GPs do NOT personally gain from reducing referral rates to secondary care. Any money saved (NOT achieved by stopping patients who need to see a see a specialist from seeing him/her but by reducing unnecessary follow ups) can be used to improve patient care eg by purchasing physiotherapy services so patients can be seen more rapidly. The purchasing process is rigorously controlled by the PCT.'


Get the story right? I did

And just in case some people can't open the link, here is what's inside it:

Doctors paid thousands not to send patients to hospital for treatment
Family doctors are being paid thousands of pounds not to send their patients to hospital for specialist treatment, sparking fears over standards of care.

>>>>>By Patrick Sawer and Laura Donnelly
Published: 3:40PM BST 18 Oct 2008

Dozens of incentive schemes have been uncovered which allow GPs to profit by slashing the number of patients they refer for hospital care.

Under one scheme, GPs stand to gain £59 for every patient not referred to hospital, if they cut an average referral rate by between two and eight per cent.


Related Articles
Balloon heart plan to 'save hundreds of lives' Torbay care trust in Devon will pay up to £15,000 to the average-sized GP practice if it hits a swathe of targets, including reducing hospital referrals.

NHS managers say referral rates, which rose 16 per cent nationwide during the first quarter of this year, have to be cut to save money. They claim many patients can receive equally good care from community NHS staff, such as physiotherapists and nurses.

But critics fear that patients could suffer if GPs' decisions are swayed by the prospect of a cash bonus.

A leading surgeon said that patients' cancers had already gone undiagnosed after they were denied specialist care under two such "referral management" schemes.

Orthopaedic surgeon Stephen Cannon, former president of the British Orthopaedic Association and a consultant surgeon at the Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital, described the cases as an "absolutely terrible" warning that decisions by non-specialist doctors could have devastating consequences.

He said: "I recently encountered two cases in which patients referred to physiotherapists later turned out to have a malignant tumour. If they had been sent to a consultant the outcome may have been very different.

"In one case a young man was referred to a physiotherapist because of sudden knee pain. Had he come to a specialist the symptoms should have been recognised and he should have been urgently referred to an oncologist. In this case, after the delays, the outcome was amputation. It was devastating for the patient and his family."

Dozens of practices across London, Essex, Oxfordshire, Devon and Wiltshire have signed up for schemes which pay GPs up to £4.50 for every patient on their list if they hit targets, including a target to reduce the proportion of patients they send to hospital.

The average family doctor, with a patient list of about 2,000 patients, stands to make between £6,000 and £9,000 if they achieve all the targets, on top of a performance-related pay system which already gives the average GP an income of £110,000.

Under the schemes, GPs will also be paid to spend time discussing patient cases with colleagues in the hope this will result in fewer referrals to hospital and more patients being treated by physiotherapists, community nurses and non-specialist staff.

Oxfordshire primary care trust will pay its GPs an extra £1 for every patient on their list for time spent discussing case details with colleagues, and a further £1 per patient on their list if they cut the number of referrals by an average of four per week. For the average practice, with an average referral rate, that could mean as much as an extra £12,000 income.

Since the scheme was introduced at the start of this month, 80 of the county's 82 GP practices have signed up. Dan Lasserson, a GP at Oxford's Jericho Health Centre, attacked the scheme, saying "There should not be a personal financial incentive put in front of anybody when deciding about delivering patient care. It will take the focus off the patient and erode patient trust."

Dr Lasserson is refusing to take part in the plans.

"It's OK to say that GPs should discuss cases to see if there's an alternative to hospital for a particular patient. But that should be happening anyway," he added. "What I strongly object to is setting targets which are linked to payments.

"Patients need to know that decisions about their future are not been weighted by financial discussions."

Sue Woollcott, chair of the Patient Support Group at Oxford's Nuffield Orthopaedic Centre, said: "There's a possibility that GPs will end up basing decisions not on clinical need but on their budget."

Specialist doctors fear serious health conditions could go undetected and allowed to worsen.

Dr Chris Deighton, of the British Society for Rheumatology, said delays in receiving specialist care could allow patients to deteriorate and even cause permanent harm.

"If someone develops rheumatoid arthritis, time is of the essence," he said. "There is a window of opportunity when intervention from a specialist and a whole team can make a real difference."

Dr Deighton cited research showing that delays diagnosing arthritis increase the risk of the condition becoming so severe that patients are unable to work, adding: "In particular I worry about the mild onset cases, which often have a worse prognosis in the long run but are less likely to be detected by non-specialists. GPs are not in a position to judge."

Dr Alistair Moulds, a GP from Laindon, Essex, has refused to sign up to a South Essex scheme which pays the average GP practice £9,000 to hit targets to reduce pressure on hospitals.

He said: "Paying GPs to try to keep patients, especially emergency admissions, out of hospital could be dangerous to patient care and safety. I don't think most GPs would not send someone to hospital in order to make fifty pounds, but I don't think that financial incentive should be there at the point a doctor is making a critical decision."

Twenty-four practices have already signed up to the Essex scheme, which began in August, while all 62 practices in Wiltshire have agreed targets which could boost average GP income by £6,400.

In Hampshire, the average GP practice will get £4,000 if they can stem rising numbers of referrals. The PCT will pay its 148 practices a maximum of £4,000 each if their referrals increase by less than five per cent. The PCT is also paying £200 a week for staff cover so GPs can spend more time discussing whether a patient should be referred to hospital or treated in the community.

Health chiefs have defended the payments, saying they are a way of encouraging GPs to spend a bit longer weighing up the pros and cons of referring patients and exploring whether there are any alternatives to hospitalising people who would frequently prefer to remain at home.

Helen Clanchy, director of primary care for Hampshire PCT, said: "The scheme is about getting GPs to understand they have got a number of alternatives to referral. Primary care has many experienced doctors, trained to consultant level, who are in a position to spot symptoms that need referral or immediate hospitalisation."

Alan Webb, director of commissioning for Oxfordshire PCT, said: "We hope to see fewer referrals, but we are not paying GPs not to refer patients. Any patient in Oxfordshire who needs a hospital referral will get one."

Dr Phil Green, for Torbay care trust, said its scheme was designed to "promote effective use of care service" and help GP practices "review and reflect on" the patients they refer to hospital.

Richard Hoey, from Pulse, a magazine for GPs, said the schemes were provoking controversy among family doctors.

He said: "The fear is that these schemes are attempting to artificially reduce referrals, rather than address the problems leading to them."

Shadow Health Secretary Andrew Lansley added: "It is inefficient and unethical to pay GPs to refer fewer patients to hospital.

"If patients find out that their local health bureaucracy is paying their doctor not to refer them to hospital they will be rightly outraged."

HOW THE INCENTIVE SCHEMES WORK

OXFORDSHIRE

GPs will receive an extra £1 for every patient on their list to pay for time to discuss patient cases with colleagues to see if there is an alternative to hospital referral. They will be paid a further £1 per patient on their list if they cut the number of referrals by an average of four per week. For a practice with 6,000 patients and an average referral rate that could mean an extra income of £12,000.

HAMPSHIRE

The county's 148 GP practices will be paid extra to keep the increase in their referral rate to below a certain level. Those practices who keep the increase to five per cent and below will receive the full amount, £4,000 for the average practice. GP practices will also be paid an average £200 a week over a 12-week period for extra staff cover to allow doctors to spend more time discussing patient cases with colleagues in a bid to find alternatives to hospital treatment.

TORBAY, DEVON


All Torbay's 22 practices have signed up to a scheme under which a GP with an average referral rate can gain £59 for every patient not referred to hospital, up to a maximum eight per cent reduction in referrals. Torbay care trust will pay up to £15,000 to the average GP practice if it hits a series of targets including those to reduce hospital referrals, spend less than its budget, and have fewer of its patients admitted to hospital in an emergency. <<<<<

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:18 AM

"The woman looked at the bath...and suggested a wooden seat to go across the bath. The way, Vi could sit on it safely, pull the shower curtain across and use the shower handle to wash herself.

But she wasn't happy with that, Vi, that is...saying she'd prefer the handles....but the lady wouldn't let her have them, as she considered them far more of a risk than the seat.."

....and please consider your relative's safety if you decide to ignore the Occupational Therapist's judgement (apparently not based on cost) and provide an aide yourself

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:42 AM

Lizzie
Have I missed on of your posts?

I can't see anything about what happened on Radio Devon? I assume you went on? I would have thought if it was a great interview you would have been letting us know about it.

I guess it didn't go well.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:42 AM

In the same way that the far right wing press have attacked health reform in America so the UK right wing press have attempted to undermine the NHS - such as the article quoted by Lizzie above which is from the Daily Telegraph decribed by one Democratic blog as

"The UK Daily Telegraph....making Fox News look fair and balanced"

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:11 PM

Emma, perhaps you'd like to interview the man who interviewed me, as he not only had experience of this very problem, as I have quoted above, but also did a report into it himself, for BBC Radio Devon.

I realise that way you may not be able to pick holes in all that I've said, but.....que sera sera...


"I can't see anything about what happened on Radio Devon? I assume you went on? I would have thought if it was a great interview you would have been letting us know about it.

I guess it didn't go well."

Oh, now there's a challenge.. :0)

It went very well, thank you. But I was being well behaved and not raging about it on here. Apparently, it was on the lunchtime TV news and I think it will be on tonight as well, from 6.30pm onwards.

I've no idea when it will be on Radio Devon, although I'd assume it will be today as well, on their news slots I guess.

He didn't interview me 'live'....but brought everything round with him, then took it all away again after to edit it and write up the story for presentation, etc...

I haven't watched it, Villan...and to be honest, I'd rather not either, as I'm sure he'll have chopped it around somewhat, and to be fair, he did tell me he had to do that, as he only has a few minutes to get the main points across...and Nanny, bless her heart, told him the entire story of how she met Mick, childhood sweethearts from 16, right up until his dying day and how that happened...so yes, he sure will need to do some editing...

I told him about Show of Hands though....and a few other things too... ;0)

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:28 PM

I told him about Show of Hands though

Last time I mentioned them you weren't to keen as I remember. Are they back in favour?

And do keep us up-to-date on the handles/lift/bench seat situation please. It would be nice to know the outcome.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:31 PM

what have show of hands got to do with anything, or folk music in genral come to that???????????

j x x x x

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:41 PM

Here you go:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/cornwall/8295585.stm

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:44 PM

Hurrah, Lizzie's been on the telly! Now lots of overworked NHS and Social Services staff will be spending long hours of their valuable time justifying their actions to a bunch of journalists who couldn't really care less as long as they get a sensationalist story that fits their own agenda. Even if it helps VI, how many others will miss out because of all the wasted time and resources? Bear in mind, Lizzie, that if you had taken the good advice offered by the OT and more than one well-informed person on here, you would have probably had a solution by now. Anyway, well done for becoming a local celebrity, with all that it entails. Best stock up on fake tan and sunglasses.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:51 PM

well done, Lizzie.
I understand her sentiments about showers,she is 95,and surely entitled to have a preference.
I also think it is admirable that Lizzie is caring for or/and about her ex mother in law.