Subject: RE: Deportees - seeking original Woody recording From: 2581 Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:47 PM Thank you for your very thoughtful post, Joe. I have long loved "Deportees" and have collected many versions of the song. Other than Arlo's solo version, my favorite rendition is by Ox (from the album, "Dust Bowl Revival"). I also like the versions done by Joel Rafael, Bruce Springsteen, Pete Seeger, Tim Williams, John McCutcheon, Judy Collins, and The Battlefoed Band. |
Subject: RE: Deportees - seeking original Woody recording From: BrooklynJay Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:21 AM Joe, thank you so much for posting this. If you ever put some of the pictures online, I hope you will provide a link. Just two days ago, at an open sing in Manhattan (Call To Song SongFest), we sang Deportee. The song had also been going through my head these days because I had recently heard Cisco Houston's recording for the first time in quite a while. One of my favorites, if I do say so. Again, Joe, thank you for the post. Jay |
Subject: RE: Deportees - seeking original Woody recording From: Dave'sWife Date: 29 Jun 12 - 11:15 AM Well, Guest Porky said it back in 2003 but just the other day, I was playing Springsteen's Sinaloa Cowboys for a folkie who just don't roll Jersey Shoreside much and he agreed that yes, it is a virtual sequel to Deportees and I believe it was intended to be just that. In Sinaloa Cowboys, they start out as Migrant workers only to get recruited to cook Meth in a chicken shack. With BREAKING BAD coming back for a new season the other people listening were struck by how far ahead of himself Springsteen was inchoosing the blight of a Meth lab and mexican immigrant Meth cookers as his subject back around the time of Ghost of Tom Joad. How I happened upon this thread is sort of weird but it brings to mind that next time I sing Deportees, I'll wear my "What Would Heisenberg Do?" button on my Guitar strap and follow it with a quiet rendition of Sinaloa Cowboys. here's to Guest Porky! BTW - still looking for fellow olayers and singers in need of a girl harmony singer here in Los Angeles. I had to sing MY WAY at a senior center recently just to say I'd sung something in public that month. Luv to you all |
Subject: RE: Deportees - seeking original Woody recording From: mayomick Date: 29 Jun 12 - 12:10 PM Very moving post , Joe . If Woody hadn't written the song, how many people would have heard of the crash today? I wrote on Mudcat some time ago that I see the song's lyric being inspired in part by The Bold Robert Emmett .Compare: The crops are all in and and the peaches are rotting, oranges packed in their creosote bins The battle is over and the boys are defeated Ireland surrounded by sorrow and gloom. Farewell to companions in Emmett chorus adios mis amigos in deportees chorus drive us outlaws like rustlers like outlaws like thieves -deportees Tried as a traitor, a rebel, a spy - Emmett Or am I just projecting things Irish onto Guthrie's lyric? Deportees could be sang to the same tune as The Bold Robert Emmett . |
Subject: RE: Deportees - seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,DianeV Date: 26 Jul 12 - 09:00 AM Update about the recording I discovered among my father's possessions: I was able to make contact with Dick Barker, who verified that the recording I had on cassette was a COPY of the first version recorded by Martin Hoffman. Dick personally recorded all of the music contained on the 4 cassettes that I found, and made copies for my dad and a few other friends. Not long after, I also located and received a response from Martin's son. In the process, I learned that Pete Seeger had copyrighted the music for Deportees in Mart's name when he recorded his version of the song. I also learned that my dad, who was an attorney, had copyrighted the remainder of Mart's music for the benefit of Mart's family. I was able to have the music converted to digital media, so still have a copy for my own enjoyment, but have returned all of the tapes, along with a copy of the digital recordings and a release of any rights I might have had to Martin's family. I have been asked not to publish any clips of the music as Mart's son has plans to release it at some future date, and will honor that request. I will send his son a copy of this message so that he knows there is interest here in learning more about his father and his music, but ask that everyone respect the privacy of the family of Martin Hoffman and not attempt to locate them. Thanks, Diane |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: DianeV Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:33 PM It's been a very long time since I posted, but there is now HUGE news! I am sharing this information and the links below with the permission of Tim Z. Hernandez, but will tell you here that Martin Hoffman's original recording of "Deportee" will soon be made public. This is a link to his blog with more information: http://timzhernandez.com/current-projects/ and this is a link to information regarding the memorial headstone project: http://timzhernandez.com/2013/02/10/28-deportees-memorial-headstone/ My husband and I went full-time in our RV last June, and we are currently working for the winter season at an RV park in Yuma, Arizona. The rest of this message is a copy of what I just posted to Facebook: This is particularly poignant for me at this time. Here in Yuma, we see farm workers being transported back and forth across the nearby border by busses towing outhouses on trailers behind them daily. We hear the news reporters telling us of complaints about the Mexican farm workers taking jobs away from Americans followed by interviews with currently out-of-work local people who say they would never work in the fields because they have tried it and the work is too hard. We have heard current news reports about workers in the field being doused with chemicals sprayed by crop dusters flying overhead, and seen the derisive comments of locals who don't think it matters that these human beings who are doing a job they don't want so that the crops in the field can be put on their own tables are now at risk for whatever dangers may be caused by the chemicals. The song "Deportee (Plane Wreck at Los Gatos)" began as poem written by the great Woody Guthrie. My father's best friend, Martin Hoffman, wrote the music, and I found a copy of his first recording of it among my dad's belongings last year. I began researching it, trying to verify that it was, in fact, the original. The author of the original post here and the soon-to-be-published book found me last year through a folk-singers' forum on the internet where there was a great deal of interest in the song. It turned out that Woody Guthrie had never sung it at all, but had only read the poem in public, and Mart's recording was, indeed, the original. I had all of my dad's music converted to digital media and returned the originals, along with a document assigning any rights I might have had to Mart's family. Mart's son has graciously given Tim permission to share it with the public for this project. |
Subject: RE: Help: Plane Wreck At Los Gatos From: GUEST Date: 27 Feb 13 - 07:39 PM We are in the process of raising funds thru donations to place a large granite memorial honoring all 32 victims of this crash and inscribing the names of the 28 migrant passengers. Please check out the link on www.KNXT.tv labeled "Paying respects to the Los Gatos Canyon Crash Victims www.KNXT.tv Carlos Rascon crascon@dioceseoffresno.org |
Subject: RE: Help: Plane Wreck At Los Gatos From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:16 PM It is knxt.tv - no dot-com. KNXT is the television station of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Fresno. Here's a link to the page on the memorial: http://www.knxt.tv/news-resources/los_gatos/los_gatos.html. Press release: January 28, 2013, marks an important historical anniversary. Sixty-five years ago a chartered immigration plane crashed and burned in Los Gatos Canyon near Coalinga, California. Twenty-eight migrant farm workers, three crew members and one immigration guard all perished in what was called the worst airline disaster in the history of the Central California Valley.The twenty-eight migrant passengers were laid to rest in a mass grave at Holy Cross Catholic Cemetery on Belmont Avenue in Fresno, California. A bronze marker identifies the burial site. However, for unknown reason, lacks the names of the deceased as one would normally find inscribed on cemetery markers.As written by musician Woody Guthrie, the names of these migrant passengers were not disclosed to the public in any of the newspapers at that time, which prompted him to write a song called "Deportee" in protest of the offensive omission.Sixty-five years later, the song he wrote is again raising interest from musical artists familiar with Woody's song, "Deportee." Intrigued audiences that have heard the story over the years, along with other visitors who are familiar with the event, occasionally come to Holy Cross Catholic Cemetery to visit the gravesite. Under the Direction of the Diocese of Fresno and the Woody Guthrie Foundation, efforts are underway to raise enough funds to purchase a large memorial honoring the thirty-two victims of the crash and finally engraving the names of the twenty-eight citizens of Mexico that never returned home. When the memorial is completed a dedication ceremony will be scheduled and the public notified. For More Information Contact: Carlos Rascon, Director Holy Cross Catholic Cemetery (559) 488-7449 Saint Peter's Cemetery is taking donations to raise the $10,000 for a memorial to the 28 victims of the Los Gatos Canyon air disaster and we need your help. To donate by Mail - Send your tax deductable donation to: Saint Peter's Cemetery 264 N. Blythe Ave Fresno, Ca 93706 PLEASE NOTE: ALL CHECKS should be made out to Saint Peter's Cemetery. Be sure to write ATTN: HOLY CROSS MEMORIAL on the envelope and in the memo portion of your check. |
Subject: More information about the memorial . . . From: DianeV Date: 09 Mar 13 - 06:23 PM . . . fundraising and another event. Trying to figure out how I could possibly get to both the April concert and the September dedication. The dedication would be my first choice. http://timzhernandez.com/2013/03/09/deportee-plane-wreck-at-los-gatos-memorial-needs-your-help/ |
Subject: Story of Martin Hoffman and the music From: DianeV Date: 07 Apr 13 - 02:34 AM The link will take you to a radio interview with Tim Z. Hernandez. Tim is writing a book about the people lost in the plane wreck at Los Gatos Canyon and is spearheading the fundraising for the memorial. During the interview, Tim tells the story of Mart Hoffman (my father's best friend) writing the music to Woody Guthrie's poem. It is due to his research for the book that Martin Hoffman's first recording of Deportee will be introduced at the dedication of the memorial. Tim Z. Hernandez radio interview This audio archive will be available until Saturday, April 13th 2013 |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:00 AM The Los Angeles Times had a good article on July 9 about the efforts to erect a marker at the grave in Fresno, with the names of all the victims: Names emerge from shadows of 1948 crash |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,henryp Date: 13 Jul 13 - 02:04 AM This will bring closure to all the families too, Joe. It's taken a lot of effort to get to the bottom of this story. You've done more than your share of the digging. Well done - I hope you feel a sense of satisfaction. |
Subject: Nameless no longer . . . From: DianeV Date: 16 Sep 13 - 04:36 PM My husband and I were honored to be a part of the events in Fresno, CA, Labor Day weekend 2013. It was an incredibly emotional weekend, which included a trip to the crash site with the family members of some of the victims, a reception followed by a question and answer session with the honored guests (family members of victims, first responders and Martin Hoffman)on Sunday, and the dedication ceremony on Monday. A documentary is in the works, but the best source at this time for the story and pictures is the article & photo gallery at the Fresno Bee: http://www.fresnobee.com/2013/09/02/3475757/fresno-memorial-unveiled-with.html |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Sep 13 - 02:12 AM Latino USA (click) had an interesting segment on the deportees this last weekend. The index is a bit confusing. To hear the segment, click #1 and the segment will begin at about 3 minutes. This link (click) should work. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: Rog Peek Date: 18 Sep 13 - 10:31 AM There is a live recording of Arlo singing this song at "An Evening With Salvador Allende" concert, organised by Phil Ochs on 9th May 1974. Rog |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:37 PM The Roman Catholic Diocese of Fresno, which owns Holy Cross Catholic Cemetery, led an effort with author and former San Joaquin Valley resident Tim Z. Hernandez to raise money for the memorial. About $14,000 was raised to cover the cost of the memorial and expenses to stage the Mass and unveiling ceremony. The new gravestone was dedicated in September, 2013. I missed the dedication of the memorial, so I visited the cemetery by myself on March, 2014. I read the names of all the dead out loud, and said a prayer for them. As I drove away, I sang a few verses of Woody's song. If you'd like to visit, the memorial is at Holy Cross Cemetery, Belmont and Hughes Avenues in Fresno - just west of the Belmont exit on California Highway 99. The grave is on the west side of the cemetery, about midway along the west fence. As the ancient prayer says, May perpetual light shine upon them. May they rest in peace. -Joe Offer- Click here for photos |
Subject: ADD: Sinaloa Cowboys (Bruce Springsteen) From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Mar 14 - 11:55 PM Porky made mention above of Bruce Springsteen's "Sinaloa Cowboys," which some consider to be a sequel to "Deportee." Dani called my attention to it in an e-mail today, and sent me a link to this YouTube video. Here are the Springsteen lyrics: SINALOA COWBOYS (Bruce Springsteen) Miguel came from a small town in northern Mexico He came north with his brother Louis to California three years ago They crossed at the river levee when Louis was just sixteen And found work together in the fields of the San Joaquin They left their homes and family Their father said "My sons one thing you will learn For everything the north gives it exacts a price in return." They worked side by side in the orchards From morning till the day was through Doing the work the hueros wouldn't do. Word was out some men in from Sinaloa were looking for some hands Well deep in Fresno county there was a deserted chicken ranch There in a small tin shack on the edge of a ravine Miguel and Louis stood cooking methamphetamine. You could spend a year in the orchards Or make half as much in one ten-hour shift Working for the men from Sinaloa But if you slipped the hydriodic acid Could burn right through your skin They'd leave you spittin' up blood in the desert If you breathed those fumes in It was early one winter evening as Miguel stood watch outside When the shack exploded lighting up the valley night Miguel carried Louis' body over his shoulder down a swale To the creekside and there in the tall grass Louis Rosales died Miguel lifted Louis' body into his truck and then he drove To where the morning sunlight fell on a eucalyptus grove There in the dirt he dug up ten thousand dollars all that they'd saved Kissed his brother's lips and placed him in his grave |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Jack Warshaw Date: 21 Nov 16 - 08:32 AM Now is a good time to sing about lives and labors of Mexican migrants so we don't forget that it is they who have suffered to help make our country great and support their struggles in the terror times to come. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4TUwq3XRzE |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 26 Jul 17 - 07:59 AM It's odd reading this coming from the islands. I really wouldn't have expected to find the 'Deportee' names in the media so soon after the crash. The pilot and crew I can understand. Was it considered proper form, in 1948 California, to give out the names of victims before their next of kin had been notified, foreign or domestic? It hasn't in most of the Caribbean since before World War II. |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 26 Jul 17 - 09:56 PM Joe: What is a California "creosote dump?" Where I come from it just means "ash heap" or "land fill." From the song wiki: "In addition to being a lament for the braceros killed in the crash, the opening lines of "Deportee (Plane Wreck at Los Gatos)": "The crops are all in and the peaches are rott'ning, The oranges piled in their creosote dumps."[6] are another protest by Guthrie. At the time, government policies paid farmers to destroy their crops in order to keep farm production and prices high.[7] Guthrie felt that it was wrong to render food inedible by poisoning it in a world where hungry people lived." [7] "Before I start, you should know that even back in the 40's the government paid farmers to destroy their crops in order to keep supply short and prices high. The song refers to oranges in creosote dumps, a method of rendering the fruit inedible. Meanwhile people then, as they do today, go hungry. And even though crop prices are kept artificially high, the workers who harvest the food are denied a living wage." Chapel Talk (PDF), Mark Hammond, January 7, 2004. What is the primary source here? Did Woody Guthrie ever actually say this about the California fruit grower co-ops? If not, where did Hammond get it from? I've lived and worked in and around citrus groves for six decades and have never even heard of the practice. Have you? Everything I find online takes me in a big circle starting and ending with Mark Hammond, c.2004. |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 26 Jul 17 - 10:53 PM Joe had something to say about creosote dumps in another mudcat thread on this song, http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=44738 |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jul 17 - 10:55 PM Hi, Phil - maybe Hammond got it from what I posted in this thread (click) in 2002:
Now, I don't remember where I got the information. Maybe it was Doctor John, maybe not. I see that I was asking your same question in 2001, and then posting the answer in 2002. Maybe I asked an old farmer in Fresno, or the Coalinga newspaper writer who wrote all the articles about the crash. It has long been common practice to pour somethng poison on waste food to render it inedible. Restaurants have been widely criticized for poisoning the waste food in their Dumpsters, and that practice has been outlawed in places. Creosote is nasty stuff, and it used to be cheap and readily available on farms for use as a wood preservative - especially for fence posts. Hey, Phil - I needed to ask you a private question about a book. Could you email me at joe@mudcat.org? Thanks. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Jul 17 - 04:43 AM Phil - I suppose it's not odd that the victims were not named immediately. This 1948 crash was the worst airplane crash that had happened in California, and it was front-page news in newspapers all over the state for three days, until Gandhi was assassinated. Woody Guthrie read a brief article about the crash in the New York Times, and the brevity of the article moved him to write his song. But this story was big news here in California, and the news coverage seemed sympathic to all the victims - not just the crew. But it IS odd that the names were not given until 2013, when a few people took the time to find out the stories of the people who died. Now those names are on a suitable gravestone, but they weren't recognized for all the years until then. -Joe- |
Subject: ADD Version: Plane Wreck at Los Gatos (W. Guthrie) From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Jul 17 - 05:13 AM Up above, Doc John says that "Deportee" was published in John Greenway's American Folksongs of Protest (University of Pennsylvania Press, 1953). I wonder if this could be the first printed edition of the song, or if it was printed elsewhere first. I have a 1960 Perpetua edition of the Greenway book. The song appears (without music notation) on pp 294-295. Notes: Guthrie's sympathy for the migratory worker is international. In this ballad he tells of the death of twenty-eight Mexican migrant deportees in an airplane crash near Coalinga, California, on January 28, 1948: PLANE WRECK AT LOS GATOS (Woody Guthrie) The crops are all in and the peaches are rottening The oranges are piled in their creosote dumps; You're flying them back to the Mexico border To pay all their money to wade back again. REFRAIN Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye Rosalita; Adios muy (sic) amigo, Jesus and Marie, You won't have a name when you ride the big airplane All they will call you will be deportees. My father's own father, he waded that river; They took all the money he made in his life; My brothers and sisters come working the fruit trees And they rode the truck till they took down and died. Some of us are illegal, and some are not wanted, Our work contract's out and we have to move on; Six hundred miles to the Mexico border, They chase us like outlaws, like rustlers, like thieves. We died in your hills, we died in your deserts, We died in your valleys and died on your plains; We died neath your trees and we died in your bushes, Both sides of this river, we died just the same. The sky plane caught fire over Los Gatos Canyon, A fireball of lightning which shook all our hills. Who are these friends all scattered like dry leaves? The radio says they are just deportees. Is this the best way we can grow our big orchards? Is this the best way we can grow our good fruit? To fall like dry leaves and rot on my top soil And be called by no name except deportees? Composed February 3, 1948 As you can see, the chorus has some problems. I wonder if the mistakes are from Woody Guthrie, or from Greenway. I'm glad to see "Mexico border" - that's the way I sing it. -Joe- For contrast, here are the lyrics from woodyguthrie.org: Plane Wreck at Los Gatos (also known as "Deportee") Words by Woody Guthrie, Music by Martin Hoffman The crops are all in and the peaches are rott'ning, Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita, My father's own father, he waded that river, Some of us are illegal, and some are not wanted, We died in your hills, we died in your deserts, The sky plane caught fire over Los Gatos Canyon, Is this the best way we can grow our big orchards?
© 1961 (renewed) by Woody Guthrie Publications, Inc. & TRO-Ludlow Music, Inc. (BMI) |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 27 Jul 17 - 03:14 PM Joe: "But it IS odd that the names were not given until 2013, when a few people took the time to find out the stories of the people who died." This begs the question. Who had formal custody of the victim's names and what were the 1948 protocols for releasing them to the general public? 1 year, 5 years, 1 week, on demand? I'm a third gen genealogist. It all seems boringly normal from a grave hunter's perspective. Blood is thicker than... &c. |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 27 Jul 17 - 03:30 PM Yeah, I saw the other thread(s) and it seemed the meat of the matter was all in this thread though I may have gotten my dates crossed. I know about creosote. I know about commodity 'price stabilization.' But we're getting way ahead of ourselves there. The wiki points to Hammond's "Chapel Talk" which is an unsourced dead end. But as noted, it builds on Joe's & Dr. John's: "...the fruit growers in California soaked their excess fruit, which was going to waste, in creosote to make it uneatable so it could not be "stolen" and eaten by the hungry migrant families. Nice what we do to each other." Where did this come from and how was it devined from Woody Guthrie's "oranges in their creosote dumps...."? |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 28 Jul 17 - 07:38 PM "I hated the false front decay of California's fascistic oil and gas deals, the ptomaine poison and brass knucks in the jails and prisons, the dumped oranges and peaches rotting, just because there weren't enough profit, rotting, running down into little creosote poisoned streams." Asch, Moses, ed., American Folk Song: Woody Guthrie, (New York: Oak, 1961, p.4) Reprinted from the original, New York: DISC, 1947. The narrative had morphed so I that didn't recognize it at first. It is Steinbeck's kerosene fires but calling that 'crop destruction' is a wee bit 'fake newsy.' So no crop surplus. No profits. No Federal subsidies. No creosote 'poisoned' food (aka denaturing.) The activist migrant workers and the Great Depression were as much, or more, to blame for the rotting crops as the growers. Each side has sees own 'truth' and there are no limits on the number of sides. |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 28 Jul 17 - 07:40 PM "The works of the roots of the vines, of the trees, must be destroyed to keep up the price, and this is the saddest, bitterest thing of all. Carloads of oranges dumped on the ground. The people came for miles to take the fruit, but this could not be. How could they buy oranges at twenty cents a dozen if they could drive out and pick them up? And men with hoses squirt kerosene on the oranges, and the are angry at the crime, angry at the people who have come to take the fruit. A million people hungry, needing the fruit – and kerosene sprayed over the golden mountains. And the smell of rot fills the country. Burn coffee for fuel in the ships. Burn corn to keep warm, it makes a hot fire. Dump potatoes in the rivers and place guards along the banks to keep the hungry people from fishing them out. Slaughter the pigs and bury them, and let the putrescence drip down into the earth. There is a crime here that goes beyond denunciation. There is a sorrow here that weeping cannot symbolize. There is a failure here that topples all our success. The fertile earth, the straight tree rows, the sturdy trunks, and the ripe fruit. And the children dying of pellagra must die because a profit cannot be taken from an orange. And coroners must fill in the certificates – died of malnutrition – because the food must rot, must be forced to rot. The people come with nets to fish for potatoes in the river, and the guards hold them back; they come in rattling cars to get the dumped oranges, but the kerosene is sprayed. And they stand still and watch the potatoes float by, listen to the screaming pigs being killed in a ditch and covered with quicklime, watch the mountains of oranges slop down to a putrefying ooze; and in the eyes of the people there is the failure; and in eyes of the hungry there is a growing wrath. In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." Steinbeck, Grapes of Wrath, 1939, climax of Chapter 25 |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 28 Jul 17 - 07:52 PM Chutzpah - "That quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan." Leo Rosten - The Joys of Yiddish So what we're actually talking about is The Great Depression & the 1930s labor wars all over Mexico & California. The Cardenistas &c wanted the orchards for themselves, 'for the people.' Grower co-ops disagreed for the obvious reasons. Team effort suicide. "And the smell of rot fills the country." The crops sat wherever the striking workers, or beleaguered scabs, left them when they walked or ran off the job; or got locked out by growers. "And the children dying of pellagra must die because a profit cannot be taken from an orange." Cutting losses is not maximizing profits and the food safety industry does not have a double standard for botulism. Brix & tide wait for no man, not even John Steinbeck or Woody Guthrie or a woman. If the whole crop goes past its sell-by, you hose it with kerosene and burn it before the rot takes the trees & vines too. There were people of all races and classes on all sides of the fight. None of them cornered the market on good or evil. And they're still at it. |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 08 Aug 17 - 07:37 PM Joe: Oddly enough I was just trying to decide which of these threads to bump when you opened the BS thread. IMO it's anything but BS & fyi: that 1M 'estimate' has a pretty wide range of awful to it: Subject: BS: I Million Mexicans Deported from U.S. The American bracero program was, in part, an attempt by the Federal government to provide "sustainable" levels of migrant labor after some State level vigilance committee travesties of justice a whole lot worse than the Federal Japanese internment camps. However, many United Farm Worker activists still saw them as the same old strike breakers and so-called "scabs" of old. Wiki: 1920-1930 - Mexican Repatriation |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 08 Aug 17 - 07:43 PM Here is the official INS version of events. Los Angeles city & county officials mostly led the way in California. Woody Guthrie arrived there in 1937 at the very end of the roundups. INS Mexican repatriation records |
Subject: RE: oranges and creosote From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 08 Aug 17 - 08:34 PM It feels wrong posting more on this subject in the main song/crash victims' thread given the complete lack of sources. But it's not exactly pure BS either. (more to follow) What Woody Really Sed: "...the dumped oranges and peaches rotting, just because there weren't enough profit, rotting, running down into little creosote poisoned streams." This comes from the intro to a 1947 songbook (reprinted in 1961.) The subject line first appeared in the 1948 verse: "The crops are all in and the peaches are rottn'ning, The oranges piled in their creosote dumps," Woody Guthrie never said any of the other things being repeated by Mudcatters. From 1929 – present the only references I can locate on the creosote subject trace by to Mudcat (c.2001) More than one request has been made but nobody is willing to back it up with scientific, technical or engineering references. I think it's past time to either put up or withdraw the accusations; set the record straight and put an end the circular reporting.
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Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Aug 17 - 08:54 PM Hi, Phil - I've sometimes wondered how the bracero program affected those farm workers who lived here in the U.S. permanently. This is another of those issues where there are many factors and many sides, and a lot of anger and passion defending each perspective. I've spent a fair amount of time visiting workers in the field and in the labor camps. It's a really tough life, especially when the weather gets hot here in California. I think we're at 45 days in a row this year with temperatures over 90. I'm glad I can hide inside in the afternoon. Here's "Bracero," by Phil Ochs. I wonder why Ochs has the braceros wading across the border waters - I thought they came here legally. I wonder how much Woody and Phil Ochs actually knew about the farmworkers. I think it's possible that Woody knew quite a bit, since he spent quite a bit of time here in California. Thread #17492 Message #3680056 Posted By: Joe Offer 26-Nov-14 - 12:27 AM Thread Name: Lyr/Chords Req: Songs by Phil Ochs Subject: ADD: Bracero (Phil Ochs)
BRACERO |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Aug 17 - 09:23 PM I still haven't found anything official to verify the use of creosote. At the time, I wasn't too concerned about the actual substance. Every year, farmers and the USDA set marketing orders to determine standards for the year's crop - including size, quality, and quantity of the produce. Whatever doesn't fit the marketing order has to be disposed of in a way that doesn't create a black market that will undercut the crop standards and prices set by the marketing order. Sometimes, that has involved pouring vile substances on the produce to make it inedible. So, when Woody said creosote, I didn't question it. It's readily available on farms, and would certainly do the trick. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 09 Aug 17 - 01:40 AM Joe: "Whatever doesn't fit the marketing order has to be disposed of in a way that doesn't create a black market that will undercut the crop standards and prices set by the marketing order. Sometimes, that has involved pouring vile substances on the produce to make it inedible. So, when Woody said creosote, I didn't question it." An urban legend as old as the law itself. It gets debunked regularly. This time last year it was Michigan Farmers Forced to Destroy Edible Cherries to Prop Up Imports? In 1940 it was Grapes of Wrath. I think that's your source and that's a work of fiction. Where are the facts? Neither you nor I have ever seen such a thing, right? THINK about it Joe. Does one grade of fruit cost any less to produce than another? Same tree and all y'know. Year in, year out, orchards process about 3% culls, waste and trash at a marginal profit. It's measured in gross tons. Nothing is wasted. |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: Georgiansilver Date: 09 Aug 17 - 06:25 AM Deportees Woodie Guthrie |
Subject: RE: Differences in published versions of lyrics From: DianeV Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:52 PM I'm not here often, having completed my own quest for information and the book about the plane wreck having been published. But I do have some information regarding the original lyrics as written by Woody Guthrie. Tim Z. Hernandez' book, "All They Will Call You" has a copy of the original typed, signed lyrics as the inside covers. Some specifics from Woody's signed version: The first line is "My crops there all in an' my peaches all rottening". "My" is typed as "muy" 10 times by my count, and "mye" once. There are many misspellings, and many apostrophes replacing syllables. The typed info at the end says "Woody Guthrie someywheres or the other February Thirde Nineteen & Fortey & Eighte". Woody's signature is written down the right side in red ink, and "Los Gatos Plane Wreck" in black ink down the left side. It would have been worth buying the book just to see this incredible document, but I didn't know about it until I received my copy. Tim was thrilled when I wrote to him immediately upon seeing it. Though I've been involved in his research almost since he began it, he didn't tell me about this wonderful surprise in advance. |
Subject: RE: Origins:Deportees-seeking original Woody recording From: GUEST,Guest Date: 18 Jul 24 - 12:44 AM Seven years ago, Joe asked: From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Jul 17 - 05:13 AM Up above, Doc John says that "Deportee" was published in John Greenway's American Folksongs of Protest (University of Pennsylvania Press, 1953). I wonder if this could be the first printed edition of the song, or if it was printed elsewhere first. I have a 1960 Perpetua edition of the Greenway book. The song appears (without music notation) on pp 294-295. There has just been a discussion of exactly this on the People's Music Network (PMN) listserv. John Greenway's 1953 book was "based" on his 1951 doctoral dissertation at the University of Pennsylvania. "Deportee" MAY have been included in the dissertation, but the only way to know for sure would be to go to the U of Penn library shelves and check. So far as anyone has been able to see yet, it's not available digitally. So the answer is "maybe". What an utterly amazing thread! |
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