What's a temple stein?

Subject: What's a temple stein?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 04:12 AM

Someone posted the lyrics of the Trumpeter of Fyvie on u.m.f., Boys of the Lough's version from back when the world was young. It includes this verse, which is a bit different from the two versions in DT:

Her brother struck her wondrous sore
With cruel strokes and many
For he broke her back under the temple stein
The temple stein o' Fyvie

Well, Scots folk out there, what is it?

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: Noreen
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 04:35 AM

Her brother struck her wondrous sair,
Wi cruel strokes, and many.
An he broke her back ower the Temple stane,
O'er the Temple stane o Fyvie.

stane = stone

Wonderful song, but one I can never imagine myself singing because it's too sad!

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 07:25 AM

A Temple Stain is what you get when you spill communion wine over the altar cloth.

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 07:31 AM

Yes, but what's the 'temple' bit?

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 12:26 PM

'Stein' is German for 'stone' and the word 'Tempelstein' would be an old German word meaning one central stone of a church building which is highly ornamented and has prayers on it (I believe). But why should a German word come into this song???

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: GUEST,Uncle DaveO
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 02:38 PM

I think the word "stein", seen as German, is misleading.

I believe it's the Scottish "stane", or "stone", and somebody
misunderstood.

What a "temple stane" would be is unclear to me.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 03:09 PM

It doesn't, though the words are essentially the same. Scottish spelling has never really been standardised, and stein, stane and steen are all used.

Andrew Lammie was a pretty popular song in its day, and the story is more or less true. "Temple stone" is not usual; it appears (so far as I know) only in Sheila (MacGregor) Stewart's set, which she learned from Jock Whyte of Aberdeen. Of course, other people may sing it that way, too; but all the texts I've found in a trawl of websites are obviously copied from hers, though mostly indirectly. I've only come across two examples that acknowledge her, and they use the more usual spelling "stane".

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: GUEST,meganl
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 03:19 PM

it could refer to a standing stone or in aberdeenshire it could be a recumbant circle, don't know the area well enough to pinpoint it without more research.

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 03:30 PM

I'm not quite right about that; evidently Stanley Robertson uses those lines as well (http://www.kyloerecords.co.uk/, Travellers Tales, volume 1). I don't know where he got them; or whether he or Sheila has any opinion as to what the "temple stane" might have been.

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 07:50 PM

I'd suspect that Wolfgang's suggestion is probably correct. Not that it'd be a German word as such, but the same kind of meaning. There are a couple of Pictish stones in the wall of the church at Fyvie, I gather, it might be a reference to that.

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 08:28 PM

Perhaps; but it may also have no particular meaning at all. Usually (if the brother's assault is even mentioned) the injury is done at, or on, the (hall) door. "Temple stone" is a very rare variation. There's a "weeping stone" in the churchyard where Agnes is buried (according to Jeannie Robertson) but no obvious connection.

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 03:53 AM

Emma B came up with the best explanation so far, perhaps she'll post it here for the rest of us? I can't get at it at the moment because she sent it straight to me, and the front door's locked at the moment...

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 11:18 AM

Here's what she wrote:

Tim(ch)eall - Timpeall in modern writing carries the meaning of circumference, circuit, girth etc.....
how about the stone marking the "bound" of Fyvie?
- just an idea .....I enjoy etymology too

Subject: RE: What's a temple stein?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM

Another meaning of 'temple', an old lallans word for the hazel rod which holds down thatch. Sometimes thatch was held down by ropes tight to stones which were flung over the roof. However I don't think that's the explanation.