BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered

Subject: BS: Rise in number of cases of Witchcraft UK
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 03:38 PM

I see the number of reported cases of Witchcraft has risen in the UK.
ITV will be running a special report after the late evening news tonight. Two convicted in court today.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2108717/Witchcraft-murder-Torture-chamber-Eric-Bikubi-Magalie-Bamu-beat-drowned-Kristy.html

Subject: RE: BS: Rise in number of cases of Witchcraft UK
From: gnu
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 03:47 PM

Link no work here in NB, CAN.

Subject: RE: BS: Rise in number of cases of Witchcraft UK
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 03:54 PM

Sorry, here is another

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pair-found-guilty-witchcraft-murder-141423256.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 04:33 PM

This story (about a murder, not about Witchcraft) appears to be the story in the first (broken) link: Pair Guilty Of Boy's 'Witchcraft' Murder

A couple have been found guilty of the barbaric murder of a 15-year-old boy who they believed was a witch.

Football coach Eric Bikubi and his partner Magalie Bamu, both 28, subjected her younger brother Kristy to four days of brutal torture.

The boy had travelled with his two brothers and two sisters to London from Paris to spend the 2010 Christmas holidays with their eldest sister.

During the visit, the couple turned on Kristy and became convinced he was possessed.

They believed he had cast spells on another child in the family, the Old Bailey heard.

Tests found Kristy, who was singled out after wetting his pants, had suffered 130 injuries and that he had drowned in the bath during a final ritual of deliverance.

The boy was in such pain after days of being attacked with knives, sticks, metal bars, and a hammer and chisel that he "begged to die" before slipping under the water, it was claimed.

The teenager had refused to admit to sorcery and witchcraft and his punishments in a "deliverance" ceremony became more horrendous.

...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 04:49 PM

Trolling again, I see. At least the non-witchcraft has been clarified. Thank you, Jeri.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 04:55 PM

My first thought was to wonder why this is relevant 'news' for us here.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 05:50 PM

Good question, Bill, but anything goes in the BS section.

As to the murder - the killers were cruel, brainless and lawless. So why do we simply believe their story that they suspected the boy of witchcraft? Aren't they capable of being liars?


I suspect the boy was retarded, crippled or mentally ill and they wanted to get rid of him. Alcohol or something similar probably abetted the process.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:02 PM

Christians murdered a boy they believed to be a witch. Their belief system, based on the absolute authority of the Bible, is unchallengeable. Even many Weatern Christians sympathise with it, for after all the Bible condemns witchcraft as a capital offence.

They are wrong on three counts at least:

Witches are superstition.

The Bible (used that way) is superstition.

Their own religion condems killing, unless you weasel the Ten Commandments. Sadly, many Christians (of our time and previous times) are happy to do that.

Joe: Not you or your sort.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: pdq
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:09 PM

Ah, Christian bashing. The last refuge of the bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:11 PM

They are Christians. They killed a boy because of their interpretation of Christianity.

Thickhead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: pdq
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:30 PM

They are African immigrants and you don't know what they believe.

Dickhead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:38 PM

A very sad case, programme on about on in UK tonight, seems so called witchcraft murders on the increase in UK. Sick people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 07:51 PM

Ignorance is ignorance, no matter what the origin and explanation OF it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:19 PM

Witchcraft or "kindoki" is a widespread belief in parts of central and western Africa.

People from all backgrounds and social classes there see it as a normal extension of their spiritual life.

It is quite routine for children across Africa to be accused of being witches and the phenomenon is particularly strong in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Revivalist churches preaching the benefits of child exorcism have gained greater influence in the past decade.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:43 PM

Why are Jeri and Kat uptight about the term "witchcraft"? It says in the original link (and I assume in the second which I've not tested): "The teenager had refused to admit to sorcery and witchcraft and his punishments in a 'deliverance' ceremony became more horrendous." And, Jeri, what's with the "(sic)"?

It was claimed during the trial by the prosecution that the defendants were motivated, however insanely, by their belief in kindoki. Kindoka is a belief in witchcraft which is spreading like wildfire through western Africa, DRC in particular, mapping in some degree the penetration of evangelical Christianity into severely deprived communities. By some estimates it has infested more than 20 million people. The "priests" who identify the witches and perform the sometimes brutal exorcisms make a handsome living out of it.

The defence case was that the prime mover, Eric Bikubi, was mentally ill. This was rejected by the prosecution, and ultimately the jury, though it would have been plain to a man on a galloping horse that mental illness played at least some part in the horror. Kindoko has been behind much child abuse both in Britain and Africa, but there seems to be no recorded case of anything comparable with the depravity in this case. Here's a link to more of the story: Guardian backgrounder.

But why go with the evidence, when leeneia, in a spasm of imbecile speculation, has given us all the answers: "I suspect the boy was retarded, crippled or mentally ill and they wanted to get rid of him. Alcohol or something similar probably abetted the process." Thanks for that, leeneia. Very thoughtful.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:46 PM

Sorry, Bluesman - cross-posted.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 11:18 PM

I don't immediately see how the belief that witchcraft can be exorcised can be anything other than some sort of primitive religious belief.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 11:24 PM

From the Guardian "Bikubi did not seek help: instead he began to pray intensely, researched kindoki on the internet and visited Nigerian pastors in Holloway Road, north London".

This appears to put a form of religion firmly in the frame.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 11:28 PM

Ya gotta be stupid in the first place think like that. I see little difference between them and fundamentalists. Do you (any of you)?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 12:18 AM

The use of the word "witchcraft" in this case is pejorative and paints a broad brush just as others do when they brand all Christians as fundegelicals. There are many who practice "the Craft" in a benign way, in fact, the first "rule," if you will, is "an' it harm none." For more info see Witch Vox scroll down for some interesting articles.

While I do not refer to all Christians, it does seem this is an outcome of fundegelicals preaching hatred and fear ala Salem, MA witch trials, etc. Remember Sarah Palin and the minister from Africa who spoke about burning witches? Churches and their leaders who condone this kind of violence should be condemned and held accountable, imo, and I would say that no matter what religion they hide behind.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 02:06 AM

I think most Protestants would agree that the King James Bible is one of the greatest achievements of their religion. Indeed, it is the starting point for all the different interpretations used in a spectrum from Quakers to Westboro.

But the church (and state- the two were absolutely intertwined) that brought it into being believed in, and persecuted, witches and heretics.

The Authorised Version was published in 1611 and much media space was given over to the celebration of the anniversary last year. The Lancashire witches were hanged in 1612, and Edward Wightman was burned at the stake for Heresy in Burton-on-Trent in the same year. I doubt if we'll see people queuing to take the credit for these barbarous acts this year.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Amergin
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:10 AM

It's called civility. Incidents such as this have less to do with religion and more to do with sadism, the torture and spilling of blood and life for your own gratification.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:54 AM

I have some experience of West Africa, (though fairly limited I admit, because as a white person a great deal about the cultural norms pertaining there would have been hidden from me). West Africans of all religions (including Muslims) still in their hearts believe in 'sorcery'. This means that any misfortune, illness, accident etc 'must' be the result of sorcery springing from jealousy or malevolence. The Christian organisations there range from White Protestantism to indigenous interpretations of 'Christianity' which in Nigeria, for example, involve 'exorcists' who charge large sums of money to torture and bully 'witches' (or 'sorcerers') into submission, to the eternal gratitude of their families who are intensely afraid of evil and who also suffer the persecution of their neighbours and villagers for harbouring such dangerous forces. Being shunned by ones community is almost a death-sentence in these primitive groups. The victims of these appalling acts are often children, sometimes very young. Families in Africa are complex, and half-siblings from different wives the norm. This causes jealousy and spite, erupting in accusations. Being an 'exorcist' is big business and brings wealth. It's unimaginable for us that anyone could behave with such barbarity, savagery, ignorance and cruelty. I've learned that even the most (to use my husband's word) 'developed' Africans have beliefs about sorcery and fear it. He certainly does, despite my efforts to change his view. But most would not descend to this level of wickedness. It is indeed murder, and should be punished as such. But education I feel is the only long-term answer. ("It's not easy to take Africa out of an African" as they say.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 06:16 AM

I might add that I have put the word 'witches' in inverted commas out of respect for those here on Mudcat who subscribe to Witchcraft and its practices, but in no way uphold torture or murder as part of this belief system. Similarly for the word 'Christianity', which in no way reflects the established Christian churches throughout Africa, who rightly abhor these things.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 06:35 AM

They consulted with Christian pastors before deciding to kill the kid (and seem to have got their approval; at least, they must have known what they were intending to do it and took no action to prevent it). Of course it's to do with religion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 07:04 AM

It's worth noting that belief in malefic witchcraft has existed FAR longer than the modern religion of Wicca, which in the late 30's early 40's appropriated the existent term 'witchcraft' into it's retrospectively fabricated 'history'.

The modern religion of Wicca and belief in malefic witchcraft (a belief which has existed in virtually all cultures throughout the globe for *thousands* of years) are two entirely separate things.

While in the West (principally UK and USA) the appropriation of the term 'witchcraft' by neo-Pagan religions has resulted in an almost complete change in the meaning of the term in popular useage and the loss of it's older meaning, in the rest of the world where superstitious belief in malefic witchcraft persists and Wicca has yet to make any headway as a religion, the term still retains it's original meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 07:14 AM

PS I should add that I actually like the Wiccan religion and harbour no antagonism to any practicioners. But it's a good idea to keep things clear when discussing difficult matters which involve the traditions and beliefs of other cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 07:27 AM

"the term still retains it's original meaning." or rather I should say 'equivalent terms' to the term 'witchcraft' yet retain their meaning.

In fact a quick look at the dictionary demonstrates that the neo-Pagan usage of the term has not fully supplanted traditional meanings of the word in popular usage as I supposed and that a number of older traditional meanings are still listed alongside the more contemporary "a believer in Wicca":

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/witch

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Mayet
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 08:37 AM

Considering the adolescent boys' sweaty locker room 'humour' of some recent threads and a proliferation of predictable copy cat trivia surely a case, described as the worst instance of child abuse in the UK and which Judge David Paget, said had been so harrowing that the jurors were exempted from jury service for the rest of their lives, is worthy of some attention and is "relevant 'news' for us here" even if it was in the UK

Let's also not sidetrack the important issues with diversory semantics
"Witchcraft" is a term with over a dozen different meanings, some mutually exclusive What is obviously being referred to here is 'ndoki'
believed to be 'an evil form of witchcraft'.

Dr Richard Hoskins of King's College, London, UK is a consultant to the Metropolitan Police on religiously-motivated crime; in 2005 he testified at a trial of three adults charged with the physical abuse of a ten year old child. believed to be practicing an evil form of witchcraft.
The victim's aunt was from Angola where, according to Dr Hoskins

"...belief in 'ndoki' - the [Lingala] word for witchcraft - is widespread in West Africa and among some immigrant communities in London, fuelled by a massive growth in small fundamentalist Christian churches. The abusers in this case - who worshipped at such a church in Hackney - may have believed they were carrying out a form of exorcism, driving out evil spirits."
. "Children affected by what is known as "ndoki" are usually treated as suffering from an "external" affliction that could be dealt with by a curative medicine, without violence. However, the beliefs of some fundamentalist Christian sects in "internal" possession and the need to exorcise evil forces had mixed with traditional beliefs to create incidents in which children were beaten to be cured. "The exorcisms are usually confrontational, much more aggressive," Mr Hoskins said.

All of the accused were committed Fundamentalist Christians

One of the accused, Sita Kisanga, "said the girl was possessed by an evil spirit, known as kindoki. 'In our community, kindoki happens. It is killing people. It is doing bad things,' she said." Subsequently, when interviewed on the radio, Kisanga said that "Kindoki is something you have to be scared of because in our culture kindoki can kill you and destroy your life completely. Kindoki can make you barren. Sometimes kindoki can ruin you chances of staying in this country. The authorities will arrest you and deport you and kindoki can be part of it."

But this case was not unique
In 2000 in London, England, an eight-year-old Ivorian girl Victoria Adjo Climbié was also tortured and murdered by her relatives who believed she was similarly possessed

Antoine Lokongo, the editor of a Congolese newsletter, Congo Panorama, believes the growing violence in exorcisms is due to western influence.
Exorcisms in themselves were not a bad thing and part of Congolese culture and identity, he said.
"This is part of our identity, part of our culture but it's being exploited for economic reasons."
He said some of the churches set up by Congolese people in the UK were simply "money-making schemes".
Child exorcisms were becoming widespread with the growing population seeking refuge in the UK from war zones in Angola and Congo, he added.
This abc news report would appear to support these claims of Pentacostal influence and abuse of 'Christianity'

N.B. The reporting of the recent trial has, of course, been extensive and even the most superficial attention would inform that the victim was not ' retarded, crippled or mentally ill' in any form; both the victims sisters were only spared the same fate because they 'confessed' Neither was their any indication that alcohol had played any part in the tragedy

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 09:22 AM

In short, it appears that the killers asserted that what they were doing was Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 10:39 AM

" a case, described as the worst instance of child abuse in the UK"

It makes me wonder in such instances to what extent extreme Christian fundamentalist views may in fact represent a purely superficial excuse for indulging an entirely personal proclivity for violence and Sadism?

I recall reading an account of another African 'witchcraft' abuse case here in the UK not so long ago (can't recall the child's name unfortunately, but it was another high profile case), and it was clear that at least one of the abusers involved fully enjoyed both the abuse and taunting the child with what they were planning.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 12:35 PM

I'm sorry, but in no way whatsoever were these appalling acts committed by Christians in the true sense of the word. This is not Christianity in any sense. They were primitive, superstitious and frenzied acts of pure abuse. Please don't judge or condemn all Christians on the basis of this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Musket
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 12:38 PM

Since when was Christian bashing the last refuge of the bigot?

It tends to be the bigoted people claiming to saying what they say as Christians I enjoy bashing, or questioning as I believe the correct term is.

And Tories

And Socialists

And Sheffield United supports

And Lib Dems

And anybody who I happen to disagree with who tries ramming their beliefs down my throat.

Seems to me that bigot is a word used too freely and understood less so.



A sad example of what happens when people listen and actually believe the crap that spews out from pulpits. If they concentrated on the love thy neighbour bit and stopped telling people to believe the bible as if it wasn't fantasy, simple morons like the people convicted here wouldn't commit their crimes. Their vicar / pastor whatever will be sat wondering where they got this idea from in the first place.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 01:11 PM

I'm sorry, but in no way whatsoever were these appalling acts committed by Christians in the true sense of the word.... They were primitive, superstitious and frenzied acts of pure abuse. Please don't judge or condemn all Christians on the basis of this issue.

I was the negligent GUEST of 02.06 that pointed out that the opposite is the case: if a belief that totrure and lethal violence against witches and other spiritual opponents is justified is not Christian, then the creators of that magnificent book, the King James Bible, were not Christian. To deny the recorded reality of Christian history is to behave like Russian communists of the 1930s.

And the harping on "primitive", "African immigrants" and the like smacks of racism. But what else would you expect of pdq?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: gnu
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 02:07 PM

I swore I wouldn't open this thread. I only opened it to post that I can't read it because I would weep and my blood pressure would go thru the roof. Also, hang the bastard(s). gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 02:13 PM

I knew there would be people commenting here who would put the blame for this on religion. Do they think that If there was no such thing as religion, all Evil would cease to exist ? The 'root of all Evil' is not the love of money ,it is the love and abuse of POWER !!

What is happening here is the forces of Evil are misusing religion in order to falsly claim 'Gods power' for themselves. This has happened many times thoughout the history of the world, especialy in primative societies.

These people are not just 500 years behind us they are thousands of years behind us, I can think of no time when it was part of our culture to beat children to death for being witches !

Within the past two years more than 80 children have suffered appalling abuse after being branded as witches in a crimewave fuelled by medieval beliefs imported from Africa, Asia and the Caribbean.

In the Victorian era the Englishman's burden was to civilise the world. Now under liberal multiculturalism the world drags England back down into the Stone Age. Thanks, Blair and Brown.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 02:27 PM

I used the word 'primitive', but no-one could say I'm racist. My husband is an African.
I cannot comment on other religions, but Christianity as set out in the New Testament (not as twisted out of all recognition by strange cults, fundamentalists etc) is founded on the teachings of Jesus, and if one reads all the Gospels, one will not find any mention therein of torture, cruelty or savagery recommended as a remedy for 'possession'. I wholeheartedly agree that many many evil acts have been committed by people who maintained they were Christian . But they cannot have been. And I would venture that most religions are comprised chiefly of good people. Wickedness exists, but not only within religious groups, and even then, only in a tiny proportion of adherents.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 02:45 PM

Describing particular acts or beliefs as 'primitive' is not the same as referring to a race of people as 'primitives'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 03:31 PM

BBC background story

The interesting thing is that the witchcraft belief system is a nice little earner for some of these churches. Label kids as witches and dun the parents for exorcizing them. Walking round Hackney, it looks much like a Third World market, except the product on sale from all those attic, basement and lockup garage churches is religion rather than dried fish, vegetables and printed fabric. Like any trade, the God business has reasons that make good bottom-line sense for exploitation and occasional murder.

And it gets bloody boring hearing that damn stupid "those people aren't Christians in the true sense of the word" crap over and again. They ARE Christians. Monstrously evil ones. They belief in Jesus, read the Bible, belong to a church that can trace its line of descent all the way back to Christ and the Apostles. That's what a Christian IS.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:20 PM

CS and Eliza are probably right, at least to the extent that this case was more about a lust for power (note that two other victims escaped the worst by saying what their tormentors wanted to hear) and gratuitous cruelty than about Christianity. It might be good if more people cut the same slack for moderate muslims (the vast majority).

It doesn't alter my view that magic and superstitions are the best tools we have for systemic exploitation of the vulnerable, and often remain useful after they've evolved into religions. There will be a lot less depravity when we've all progressed beyond believing palpable nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:21 PM

"That's what a Christian IS."

Jack - you're so clueless that it's not worth it to try and change your mind.

And you forgot to mention the Spanish Inquisition.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 06:09 PM

Wesley (and like-minded others), if someone confesses the Christian faith - believes in a god who sacrificed his son to himself to the end that all who truly beleve should not perish but have everlasting life etc - who are you to cast judgment and say that such a person is not a Christian?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 06:48 PM

Damn, Peter, and all this time I thought it was Roman soldiers that crucified Jesus....
In an attempt to rationalize your bigotry, you're twisting things pretty damn far. Face it, Peter, it isn't fair to blame this horrible event on Christians. To blame the whole group for the actions of a few, is bigotry, plain and simple. Most Christians deplore any sort of violence done in the name of their faith. Why blame them for the actions of a few extremists?
Because....that's the name of the game, in the game of bigotry.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 06:55 PM

There are many reasons why people believe Jesus existed, the biggest one is faith. Faith does not take into account facts. To this day there has been no hard evidence found that Jesus Christ even exisited.

There's no evidence that Nazareth even existed at the time that people claim Jesus did. There are 133 different years that people have claimed he was born and every month of the year has been claimed to be the month he was born at one time or another.

The Gospel of Mark, The Gospel of Luke, The Gospel of John and The Gospel of Matthew are the first writings that were ever discovered (in the Bible) about Jesus and they were written at least 70 years after Jesus was said to have died.

If you want to consider that evidence you can, but science and history won't.

Any proof he was crucifed ?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 07:35 PM

Well, let's see....scholars date Mark about 70 AD, Matthew and Luke in the 80s, and John in the late 90s....so "at least 70 years" after the death of Jesus is a little off.

But in general, I don't care to getting into matters of "proof" and argument. It accomplishes nothing. I'll leave that to Christian literalists like Iona in the Creationism thread, and I'll stay as far away from that kind of stuff as I can.

I guess I'm convinced it isn't possible to carry on a discussion at Mudcat of anything with religious implications. The subject seems to bring out the worst in people.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 08:02 PM

Amen to that, Joe, no pun intended. It's too bad, too, because some people here have posted very interesting viewpoints. I esp. would like to thank Eliza for recounting her experience and background.

Anyone up for a "coexist" bumper sticker?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 08:18 PM

Well if you get comfort from it and it helps you get through life, then it's good for you. Don't even try to justify it to others.

I did have one major psychological/emotional change in my life many years ago (improvised explosive device went off in my face) a chaplain used to visit me a lot in the hospital. I have to say, the conviction he had to his faith impressed me. I am not a religious person, but this guy was a good person, he never treated me as a clinical case like the others, much he said then stuck with me to this day.

It is down to the individual Joe. You don't have to justify yourself to others.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 08:27 PM

Well, whatever the case, I agree with Jeri that this is an issue of torture and murder, not religion and not witchcraft. Instead of pointing the finger of blame at one group or another, people of good will need to unite in opposition to the injustice that occurred.
Time and time again in discussions here, groups are blamed for things they would never, ever approve. Nobody in his right mind approves or condones torture, murder, abuse, or any sort of crime. In almost every situation, it's foolhardy to blame a group for the crimes of a few members.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 08:37 PM

Christians who won't admit that the witch-persecutors are *their own* are perpetuating the problem.

Somebody does something monstrous?

- Oh nothing to do with us, they were never Christians to begin with, you can't expect us to have seen it coming or done anything about it, can you?

In this case the pastors of those London African churches *should* have seen it coming. It was well known what the witch-persecuting ideology stood for. As the author of that BBC article pointed out: that murder would not have happened in Kinshasa, because the community is more open and people know what their neighbours are up to. But there's no excuse for them not realizing that London was different and anticipating what their ideology would turn into in a city of isolated flat dwellers with minimal family networks.

I grew up in New Zealand with Seventh Day Adventist neighbours. They seemed a bit stuffy and clannish but not otherwise all that weird. I got to meet some of their network of relatives, some of them missionaries in the Pacific, and read some of their literature. It was rather obsessional about things I couldn't see as very important and a bit preoccupied with impending doom, but they managed to get on with their lives without the millenarian stuff getting in the way.

Now transport the same ideology to a totally isolated community with no outside ideas and information to provide reality checks. You end up with the Branch Davidians - a few hundred people progressively edged into organizing their own apocalypse. They were part of a larger church which had simply washed its hands of them. Nothing to do with us. Not Christians, never were.

BTW Muslims deal with this rather more honestly. Very few advocates of repulsive ideologies with criminal repercussions ever get categorized as ipso facto non-Muslim. They are more often seen as genuine Muslims creating a problem. Which offers a route for some sort of dialogue that you don't get with the Christian response of simply cutting deviant fractions out of the community because they're embarrassing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 10:28 PM

Joe, it looks like I wasn't clear enough. First off, the post of mine you answered related to a very specific point. The perps in this case described themselves as Christians and it seems reasonable to establish by what rationale other Christians find it safe to disown them. (If they repented now of what they did to Kristy Bamu, but continued to believe that children could be possessed of the devil, would you then readmit them to the faith?)

Second, I had said only two posts earlier:

CS and Eliza are probably right, at least to the extent that this case was more about a lust for power (note that two other victims escaped the worst by saying what their tormentors wanted to hear) and gratuitous cruelty than about Christianity. It might be good if more people cut the same slack for moderate muslims (the vast majority).

On your argument that "this is an issue of torture and murder, not religion and not witchcraft." anyone who followed the case would say it was, beyond doubt, about all four. (Here you need to understand that in the US "witchcraft" has lately taken on a different meaning from the long-established one still accepted in Europe and Africa, as I think CS explained.)

I made the point earlier in the thread that what happened to Kristy went beyond anything previously recorded in Africa or London. But you need to recognise that brutal abuse of children, by declared Christians in the name of kindoki, is widespread in western Africa, DRC and in small fundamentalist Christian churches in areas of London which have communities of west African immigrants.

As for who crucified Jesus, I'd better give warning of thread drift....

I think you're right, Joe. It was the Romans wot done it. But only so the scriptures (Isaiah 53) could be fulfilled, remember? So you could say the Romans were God's puppets: "For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten Son to the end that all who truly believe...." Yep, without Jesus's sacrifice, God would not have been willing to forgive us our sins. (Check out 1 Corinthians 15 and various references in Acts, eg 3:18.)

According to your first pope, in his first pentecostal homily (Acts 2), God knew in advance that Jesus had a sticky fate ahead of him. And Jesus himself told his friends that a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do - later railing at his all-powerful dad for forsaking him. All of which, Joe, is taken from Catholic teaching. It is what Catholics (and indeed I think all Christians) are supposed to believe.