BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies

Subject: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 01:43 PM

I haven't seen the film but have great misgivings about how it makes fun of people in a real country. Now here is an article that says something about how the movie was made.

I would encourage everyone who is offended by this to write to various people so that at least some of the wrongs here can be lessened, perhaps by some financial arrangements etc.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/14/D8LCSROO0.html

Remember, most of our ancestors were not overly sophisticated..although probably not as uncouth as what I understand is portrayed here.I haven't seen the movie and will do it with an eye toward writing a few letters...

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 01:53 PM

If it involves Sacha Baron Cohen or whatever his name is, then you can be certain that it is offensive, and unfunny.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 01:56 PM

For real.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:00 PM

It's being billed as 'the funniest thing you'll ever see'.... I've seen funnier root vegetables.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:25 PM

I thought it provided eccellent publicity for Ioan Ivancea(Romanian gypsy music), and also for the stunning singing of the Bulgarian London-based singer Dessi(sorry can't remember her whole name, I'm sure somebody else will come up with it). OK, the film is offensive: so is a lot of humour. i think you all must know what you are going to get if you look at Ali G, or Borat. Anyway, I thought it was excellent. And it brought great traditional folk music to a wide mainstream audiencee. Great stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:26 PM

Oh you people gotta get the fuck over yourselves....

It's a laugh.... and a damn good one at that!

Try getting more bran into your diets

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:28 PM

If we need a shit, we always have you Clint.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:31 PM

At least I'm not a tight assed old fuckwit who wouldn't know a good time if it jumped up and bit me on the cock

If I ever get half as old and cranky as some of you peopel, I'll shoot myself in the face.

I wonder why some of you even get out of bed in the morning, if you're so afraid of the world as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:36 PM

Dessislava Stefanova, or Dessi for short. that was the name of the singer I was having difficulty remembering. She is agreat singer, look out for her(or listen if you go to see Boarat). But if you find racism. incest, naked fat men, poo jokes, Romanian gypsies, Americans, rodeos or Pentecostal Christianity unfunny, you had perhaps better avoid it.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:41 PM

A shame he should ruin good poo jokes amidst all that other stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:49 PM

Most humour now seems to consist of mocking something or someone, there is very little intelligent humour any more.
In the UK we are getting like some other countries, we can no longer laugh at ourselves, instead we laugh at other people, and their foibles and weaknesses.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:55 PM

I'm reserving judgement till I see the movie. It's getting a great reception in Canada, and I've heard that it's very good. Clinton might be right on the mark with his reaction to this one.

The best way to discredit racism, I would think, is to make outrageous fun of it in the most extreme and blatant manner (as Lenny Bruce did, for example), not to engage in long-winded, holier-than-thou moral diatribes, which is what people usually do when they are desperate to prove to everyone how totally unprejudiced and wonderful they are themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:01 PM

(as Lenny Bruce did, for example)

You might not be worth the powder to blow you to hell LH, but in this, we reach.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:07 PM

Ali G/Borat makes some people squirm because they recognise them selves. Clever comedy. Ali G was great when he was still unknown to those he suckered in and exposed. Borat is too close to comfort for others.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:09 PM

I doubt that I will bother to see it, so cannot comment, but I find it hard to believe the following claim is valid. Doesn't say a lot for our college students, does it?:

Two members of a fraternity at a South Carolina university who appear making drunken, insulting comments about women and minorities also are suing 20th Century Fox and three production companies, claiming the crew liquored them up in a bar before filming and told them the movie would not be shown in the United States.

So it's okay to project an asshole view of Americans, as long as it's not in America...oh, yeah, just like the prez they look up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:11 PM

I have no problem with using humor and satire to blow out racism and other problems in the world. By exposing the racists to ridicule is the best way to get rid of this crap.

What bothers me, IF the stories are true is that he used these people. The story that came out today is that paid these people a few dollars ($3 to $5 in American money)to use their village and do outrageous stunts. I would hope that he sends a few more dollars to help out since this movie is so successful.

I do have a problem with people crying "foul" without having seen the movie. The story said that he "made" these people do outlandish stunts. He "made" a 75 year old woman put on large fake boobs and then say she is a young woman from the village. A mother was given money to let a pig run around in her home. A man without an arm was given a sex toy to strap on in place.

They may be poor, but they aren't stupid. How do you "trick" someone into doing things like that?   I have to suspect that they knew this was a comedy film, and if they are crying foul now - perhaps the blame is on them?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:16 PM

So why is the Kazakhstan ambassador complaining about the film, and the fact that it make a fool of his country. Is that valid in the name of humour?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:22 PM

"why is the Kazakhstan ambassador complaining"

Cause he's a suck, like you are?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:23 PM

Giok - does that mean people should stop making fun of the U.S. and the U.K.?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:24 PM

I just find the exerpts I saw (and I saw several) a little boring and samey. Having seen - and enjoyed - the Borat skits in the Ali G series, I think a whole movie of more of the same will be at risk from the standard " The Movie" syndrome, i.e. you can only repeat so many variations of the same joke. Indeed some reviews I read seem to confirm this; and the same happend with "Ali G In Da House".

As regards making fun of Kazhakstanis, those who believe Borat does so are missing the point: I take Borat to be taking the piss out of all those who would readily accept that this is how Kashakstanis really are. Of course this is not the case, yet he seems to find so many victims ready to accept him for real. When then the tables turn on them, some get angry - but for my money the real joke was on them the minute they accepted him as a bona fide individual.

A great idea for a joke - but in the end it is just one joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:26 PM

And before someone else says it - yes, I cant spel eyther

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:29 PM

"those who believe Borat does so are missing the point"

Like the people who think that Stephen Colbert is really a republican....

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:30 PM

Precisely.

Shit - I am agreeing with CH!

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:33 PM

Yeah, Clinton, I guess we do. ;-)

I don't mind seeing assholes being made fun of, no matter which country they are from. Every country has its share of assholes, and they deserve to be made fun of. Young guys often make insulting comments about women, minorities, gays, whoever...just to get attention, to get a rise out of people, and mostly to show off in front of other young guys. If you've been in high school or college, you know that. It's typical acting out behaviour for immature males at a certain stage in their lives. So let's make fun of it, I say. ;-)

I think Guest has it right on the nose: "makes some people squirm because they recognise themselves"

That's the real reason people got so livid at Lenny Bruce and set the cops on him. They couldn't stand being confronted with their own hidden crap. There was definitely a method to his madness, and there may well be to Cohen's too.

It's a danged good thing he's a Jew, otherwise imagine all the people who now would be accusing him of being anti-semitic...and that was true of Lenny Bruce too, wasn't it? Satire seems to go right by a lot of people, because they don't think, they merely react to the most obvious symbols that happen to push their buttons.

Another case of that was all the people who got offended by the Randy Newman song "Short People", because they took it seriously.

Some people just can't take a joke! (or get it either, apparently)

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:38 PM

" Shit - I am agreeing with CH!"

Welcome to the dark side, my young apprentice. You've taken your first steps in a much larger world.

;-)

" It's a danged good thing he's a Jew"
His anti-Jew rant at John Stewart on The Daily Show was HILARIOUS!

" Some people just can't take a joke!"
And what does the old adage suggest we do with they's that can't?

FUCK 'EM!

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:40 PM

I agree with George, I found the excerpts very funny but it is one joke done to death.

But some people never tire of the same joke!!

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:43 PM

Yeah! LOL!

Mick Jagger said that once, didn't he? (certain people were objecting to a certain line in the song "Some Girls"...a song which, if anyone was dumb enough to take it seriously, they oughta be made to listen to it a hundred or so times more just as punishment...)

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:58 PM

My fear with this film was that a lot of people might watch it thinking "dumbass rag head arab", fuelled by prejudice created by the whole christian/moslem and white/arab post 9/11 thing, and use it simply as a vehicle to indulge their ignorant disparaging and stereotyped view of foreigners wiith dark skin and big moustaches.

I am starting to understand though that cohen could have used this character precisely to expose those kind of attitudes in people, in which case bring on the pricks, because they're either going to be exposed, feel very uncomfortable as they slowly begin to realise that they and their ilk are in fact the real butt of the joke, or they are going to laugh along, breathe a sigh of relief that it wasn't them and slink away to their holes at the earliest given opportunity and maybe even start to reconsider their point of view.

The difficulty is, what if they are too stupid to get the irony and still believe that he is really a khazakstani or that the point is still about what geeks khazakstani's are (and what a joke their soldiers are, how easy it is to kick their heads in etc).

I mean it's all goddam Iraq at the end of the day isn't it!

And maybe some of his victims didn't deserve to be targets as much as others?

Time will tell. I'll probably see it when it comes out on video.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:06 PM

I found it offensive and hilarious; no-one enjoys being the butt of slapstick, but I don't think any of it should be taken that seriously. It also show fat, hairy naked men having temper tantrums in a very bad light, and extols the virtues of prostitutes and makes Christian revivalist Pentecostals look silly. There's very little it doesn't make fun of, from Kazakhistan to Los Angeles. I laughed my ass off, deciding I would take it seriously some other time. I think, on reflection, it was the right choice. I felt the same way about Charlie Chaplin's send-up of Hitler.

A number of people are p.o.'d because he was not up front with them about what he was doing and thus took advantage of them, including the anchor newsperson who reportedly lost her job, and the rowdy frat boys described in Kat's post. I think there was something dodgy about that business model, indeed, and we'll see how it comes out in court. But that does not take away from the hilarity of the resulting film.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:33 PM

"what if they are too stupid to get the irony and still believe that he is really a khazakstani or that the point is still about what geeks khazakstani's are (and what a joke their soldiers are, how easy it is to kick their heads in etc)."

Yeah, that's always the problem, isn't it? It can't be helped. There will always be such people, unfortunately. It's part of life.

I can understand that people are angry he used them and didn't let them in on the joke...but looking at it from his point of view that would definitely work the best for creating genuinely funny satire in an improv way and making it convincing, rather than having people just act it out as a script.

Practical jokes only work if the people you play them on are fooled, but the people who get fooled aren't necessarily going to like it when they find out. In America, if people don't like something, they tend to sue. That's one of the real problems with modern America. It wastes a hell of a lot of time, money, and effort...but it sure as hell keeps the lawyers employed, so it's not all bad, right? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:47 PM

"makes Christian revivalist Pentecostals look silly"

We don't need Borat for that....

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: bobad
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:50 PM

I guess this guy didn't find Mr.Cohen funny:

Comedian Sacha Baron Cohen, the star 'Borat: Cultural Learnings of America For Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan', got a nasty beating when tried to pull a fast one on a passer-by in New York.

"I like your clothings. Are nice! Please may I buying? I want have sex with it," Cohen said to the bewildered man, who landed a blow on the 35-year-old comedian. As Cohen shouted for help, the man punched him several times, before the funnyman's friend actor Hugh Laurie came running to his aid.

"Sacha couldn't resist playing the fool as Borat, but picked on the wrong person. I guess this guy thought he was being attacked by someone unstable and lashed out. Sacha is very lucky he didn't get a much worse beating," Laurie said. Though Cohen has been warned against taking his big screen character Borat to the streets, he couldn't resist this chance to do what he did to several Americans featured in the film.

From Earth Times.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Lox
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:57 PM

"I can understand that people are angry he used them and didn't let them in on the joke"

Actually, that bit doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Getting people to expose their darker side like that is the essence of some great satire. We had two spoof news programs in thhe UK called "the day today" and "brass eye".

Both were so realistic that they had most viewers fooled instantly to begin with, unless they had had forewarning.

Butmost importantly, they showed just how idiotic people can be just so they can have their moment of glory. Chris Morris managed to get an inordinately long list of celebs, for example, to record video messages warning of the evils of a new super addictive drug called "cake"

"It's a made up drug, and people make it in their own kitchens!!!!!"

His campaign even managed to get an MP to ask a question about it in parliament.

Absolute class.

He hasn't worked since as he pissed off too many people including the kray twins old hit man "mad frankie fraser" by duping him into expressing his views in an interview on the subject of "nonces".

Britain did not know what riches they lost when he went off the air.

Problem with Borat is the stereotype, and the ramifications for dark skinned folk with moustaches who live in the UK and the US who may be the target of Borat jokes, and the general sense of unfair treatment that many Khazakstani's may feel. There are some who deserve to be humiliated, but I feel they are an easy target who don't really have a way of replying. If that is the case then it doesn't seem fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:59 PM

" I guess this guy thought he was being attacked by someone unstable and lashed out."

What kind of cowardly, small minded, knuckle walker would you have to be to assault someone you think is unstable....   "Oh, he's a retard... beat him up."?!?!?! What the fuck?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Lox
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:11 PM

Boggles the mind Clinton

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:18 PM

The type of person who isn't going to 'get' Borat isn't going to start abusing brown skinned people with moustaches. They already do.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:20 PM

Well I'm never too hard on you Clint...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:44 PM

I really think the lad should go on a tour of Kazakhstan and see how the act goes down there.

........................

I see from the paper today that Ioan Ivancea (whose music was featured in the film) has died - here is an obituary in today's Guardian.

And here is his band Fanfare Ciocarlia on YouTube.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:52 PM

And so the degradation of society grows.....even in fun....Come Lord Jesus!

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: bobad
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 06:01 PM

"What kind of cowardly, small minded, knuckle walker would you have to be to assault someone you think is unstable"

This was New York city, he's lucky to be alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 06:15 PM

Cohen takes the piss out of every religion?

He's very happy to have a go at everyone else's beliefs.

But he really lost his rag and shouted and screamed and cried when he discovered that the mashed potato he had just eaten in the Ivy restaurant (one of the very best and most exclusive and hardest to get into in London - if my memory serves me they turned away two US presidents on different occasions) was just like everyone else's mashed potato that day, and had had bacon in it.

Just maybe he should decide whether to run with the hare or to hunt with the hounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 06:20 PM

"The type of person who isn't going to 'get' Borat isn't going to start abusing brown skinned people with moustaches. They already do."

I wholeheartedly agree, but would add that they don't need more excuses or ammo.

Plus there are some who may have previously felt inhibited who might think that if it's ok for Cohen to do it, it's ok forthem to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 06:25 PM

Borat is a send off of all humanity, not just religions.

Of course you wouldn't expect that distinction to make much difference in some circles.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 06:37 PM

Please, f you go and see it, try to stop laughing enough now and again to enjoy some of the very fine music. Or perhaps see it twice to make sure you catch it all. This is a seriously good movie for folk music, believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 07:08 PM

I can't wait to see it but if Richard is implying that Cohen (being Jewish) takes his own religion very seriously, then I would say Cohen should be prepared for someone to make a very funny movie about Jews. I'm sure there are alot of Jews who would call a movie ridiculing Jews, anti-semitism. Good point, Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Lox
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 07:11 PM

though possibly following in mel brooks footsteps (another jewish anti semite ?!?!?!?!??) - he made cheesy and sometimes offensive jokes but had artistic integrity nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 07:22 PM

Jews making jokes poking fun at Jews isn't anti-semitic. Christians or Muslims doing the same would be. The point is, Sacha Baron Cohen is not a Kazakh.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 07:44 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borat

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 08:15 PM

Here's a video of a Kazakh pop song.

What gives all this a nasty taste is that the joke could have been just the same if he'd made up the name of the fictional country, rather than taking the name of a real place where people live, and which they love, the same way other people love their native country. It was a mean thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Nov 06 - 04:11 PM

"if Richard is implying that Cohen (being Jewish) takes his own religion very seriously"


... then Richard's missed the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Nov 06 - 04:12 PM

Another way to look at it...

... I don't think there was any commonly recognized stereotype of a khazak before this film, yet it certainly seems to be the case that there is one now.

And so globally recognized.

A global laughing stock for no reason.

It is shit.

"The point is, Sacha Baron Cohen is not a Kazakh." - absolutely.

For a khazak reaction click here

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Nov 06 - 04:18 PM

I can't help feeling that aspects of western culture(American, in particular) are the objects of the film's ridicule, rather than Kazakhistan.But then, the man's humour has always been multiple edged. It was extremely difficult to be sure who Ali G was having a go at, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Nov 06 - 04:29 PM

This morning on Baby Story a couple went to Kazakhistan to adopt two babies. It seemed like a very nice place. This is not right period to make fun of real people in a real country and probably in ways that offend their moral sensibilities as well. Then add to that the humiliation of the Romanians that was done. Then add to that the fact that we are at war not terribly far away and it gets dumber and dumber. This is the Ugly American syndrome in excess. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 06 - 04:37 PM

There is irony in Westerners objecting to humour that is directed AT Westerners, mistakenly thinking it is directed at someone else. Whilst they simultaneously finance wholesale murder not a million miles away from the someone elses.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Nov 06 - 04:39 PM

I am sure there is irony in the Romanians objecting to this classy humor, and irony in the Kazahkistan people objecting. What humorless dolts they must be. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 06 - 04:45 PM

Have you seen the film?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 02:16 AM

Okay, I've seen it. It's kind of gross and tasteless in spots...which has become more and more typical of comedy movies in the last decade or two. I prefer subtle humour, like in the movie "Lost In Translation". However, it's also very funny in spots. I think anyone who wastes their time getting offended by it is realllllly wasting their time BIGtime. It's not worth getting offended by a movie as wacky as this one.

It's natural that Khazak politicians would act outraged about it, because politicians everywhere figure it's their professional business to get outraged over anything that outrages any of their constituents..."I mean, YIKES! There are votes at stake here. I better damn well express the appropriate amount of outrage and raise bloody hell about it or people won't vote for me next time!" (yawn....)

Really, this movie makes fun of just about everybody, but most of all of middle Americans, armoured in their cultural ignorance...

One thing I like about Canada is we don't tend to get upset when people make fun of Canadian culture...in fact, we join in the joke and add to it with much enthusiasm. This is something a lot of nations just don't seem able to do for some reason. They take it all soooo seriously. Could be they're a little insecure?

I kid you not. You know whatcha got in Canada? Snow! A hell of a lot of it. And not much else. We have designated drivers to drive people back after late night maple syrup binges. I'm talkin' staying up till 9:30 PM!!! Our military forces consist of a moose, a beaver, 16 guys from Wawa, and a truckload of snowballs and peashooters. Summer lasts a week and a half, so we really enjoy getting a tan, eh? Canada! Love it or don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 02:16 AM

Cos we're easy, eh? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Satire exploits Self-Righteous Twits
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 02:34 AM

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know wot I mean, know wot I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 04:10 AM

'Canadian Culture'????????????????????????? Que?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,Bruce M. Baillie
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:02 AM

...I've not seen the film yet but it looks funny, I agree with Clinton Hammond on this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:13 AM

"This is the Ugly American syndrome in excess"

He's British.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 08:04 AM

LH

I'm Irish - as such I have have been blessed with the ability to laugh at myself. We've been taking the mickey out of each other (and the brits ;-) ) mercilessly, ever since we discovered what an entertaining plaything the English language can be.

There isn't an Irish joke that I've heard in the UK that I didn't first hear in Ireland. And that is certainly true of the funnier ones.

But there are some unwritten codes of practice; If someone engages you in a battle of wits then of course they become fair game and must expect to be on their toes or get tied up in knots. Such humiliation is only to be expected.

A skillful verbal pugilist though has as much a sense of honour and fairness as his more violent distant cousin, in that when his opponent is knocked down, he doesn't continue to kick him so that he is unable to walk again. (unless dealing with a bully of some sort - racist for example)

Likewise, there is no glory in destroying someone of a lower weight class, or who is simply out of their depth, not being in possession of the skills required.

To find an unwilling victim and humiliate them for no reason is funny to some, but to me smacks of bullying.

My personal rule, ie that I apply to myself, is that anyone is fair game as long as they are in on the joke. It's only funny as long as they're enjoying it. The minute that ceases to be the case, a reassuring wink or comment is made and the subject changes.

I would wager LH, that while you are able to take a joke about yourself, and though you come from a country where that kind of humour is understood and enjoyed - if you were in a bar in the US and some guy decided to ridicule you for being canadian, for the enjoyment of his friends, in a way that demonstrated a distinct lack of wit and knowledge about you or Canada and that painted you and your nation in a grotesque light such that you felt offended, and he and his friends wouldn't leave you alone despite your discomfiture, and it was obvious that how you felt was something they did not give a shit for, and there were more of them and they were bigger and it was on tv everywhere for people to see, and everywhere you went people laughed and smirked and sniggered behind your back and in your face in a derogatory way ...

... I'd wager you might not be so welcoming of that kind of mickey taking.

It's not a film that would offend me, but cohen is saying to an otherwise ignorant world 'this is what Khazaks are like'

I live in a very postmodern culture and I therefore have a good understanding of postmodern irony. How postmodern is Khazak culture? and how realistic therefore is it to expect Khazaks to 'get with the program'?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 08:07 AM

The parallel isn't to comedy that pokes "fun" at, for example, Canada, or the USA as such. People know enough about these places to ensure that any "fun" would have to have some basis in reality. Even then it comes better from the inside, because that way it can skate closer to the reality while modifying it. That's why a show like The Simpsons is funny.

From what I've read, it seems pretty evident that the actual target of Borat is the USA, and the real USA at that, and that it involves subjecting real Americans to a peculiar kind of stress, and filming the result - a kind of Candid Camera. (I rather take it that is what is meant by the reference to "the Ugly American syndrome" in this context.)

But in the process a peculiarly mean thing has been done to a real part of the world of which outsiders know virtually nothing; and which some people at least are going to take as an exaggeration of a real Kazakhstan, in the same way as The Simpsons is an exaggeration of reality, rather than as the total fantasy which it is.

If the same kind of exercise had been done using the name and address and personal details of some random stranger, I think it might be easier to recognise it as a gratuitous personal attack. "Come off it,   xxxxx xxxxxxx, where's your sense of humour, expressing concern about this guy dressed up as you, using your name and address and boasting about his experiences as a folk singing rapist, child abuser and necrophiliac." I suggest people who jeer at Kazakh objections to this insert their own name in that sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Desdemona
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 10:34 AM

I've been a fan of 'Da Ali G' show since it debuted, and I think Sacha Baron Cohen provides a brilliant, hilarious and absolutely fearless commentary on many unfortunate realities of western culture. The whole point of all 3 of his characters is their ability to wind up people to the point where they (and often all too quickly, I might add) reveal their own prejudices because they feel safe exposing themselves to someone who is "other"...this is particularly true with the Borat character, who is erroneously assumed to be an ignorant "foreigner", and therefore a harmless audience for one's bigotry(ies).

I'm recalling in particular a segment on the TV show where he visits a wealthy Texan who keeps what is essentially a "hunting zoo" on his huge estate. This includes not a few endangered animals, which he has lured into the open with mechanized feeders, so that he can shoot them from the comfort of his jeep without ever getting off his fat butt. When Borat asks if this could be done using Jews (NB that Baron Cohen is an Orthodox Jew who keeps kosher and won't even answer the phone on the sabbath), the man answers regretfully that it would be illegal in the US; Borat replies that this is a shame, to which his companion ruefully agrees...is nice, yes?

While it might have been preferable to have used a made-up country for Borat's homeland (and let's face it, how many of his marks would know the difference anyway? I'm thinking of those adorable drunken, sewer-mouthed, misogynistic frat boys who kept asking him about Russia...their parents must be so proud!), I don't think anyone ever expected what began as a short-format sketch to become the big deal that it has since the movie came out. And my feeling is that the Kazakh government's even dignifying such a broadly comedic and ridiculous character with a response is ludicrous...no-one actually BELIEVES that the national sport is rape, you know?

At the end of the day, pretty much any groundbreaking comedy in history has been deemed "offensive" in some quarters, but the fact is that exposing society's foibles and weaknesses is a time-honoured approach, and besides, it's *funny*!

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 11:18 AM

Have to agree with Clinton but I can't do so without a fight:-)

Clinton, you say "If I ever get half as old and cranky as some of you peopel, I'll shoot myself in the face." I think most peoples definition of cranky sums you up to a tee. Do you mean we only have to wait a few years? ;-)

The other one is "What kind of cowardly, small minded, knuckle walker would you have to be to assault someone you think is unstable...." Surely we have already had this dicussion? No-one assaults someone without provocation. Remember? Never believe what people say they saw. Remember? Was 'Borat' doing anything different to the bloke playing the Black Prince in our play who you reckon got what he deserved?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 11:23 AM

I agree 100% with Desdemona. Good analysis.

Lox, I HAVE experienced what you said... "if you were in a bar (in my case, just in school) in the US and some guy decided to ridicule you for being Canadian, for the enjoyment of his friends, in a way that demonstrated a distinct lack of wit and knowledge about you or Canada and that painted you and your nation in a grotesque light such that you felt offended, and he and his friends wouldn't leave you alone despite your discomfiture, and it was obvious that how you felt was something they did not give a shit for, and there were more of them and they were bigger and it was on tv everywhere for people to see, and everywhere you went people laughed and smirked and sniggered behind your back and in your face in a derogatory way ..."

Hell, yeah. All through Junior High and High School in New York State in the 60's, I experienced just that. From that experience I learned just how ignorant and crummy some young Americans can be...just like the idiot frat boys in the movie. Sad.

I didn't enjoy it a bit when I was treated that way...but it was not watching a movie that I was experiencing then. It was real life. Real life is very different from watching a movie. I got offended by such behaviour in real life, you bet I did. I do not get offended watching it in a movie that is obviously intended as an extreme satire and not as a depiction of reality. Anyone who watches that movie and thinks that the Khazaks are actually like that would have to have a mentality about the level of an eggplant! On the other hand, anyone who watches it and realizes that a lot of ordinary Americans can easily be fooled into thinking Khazaks or other Muslims from small countries are like that might get some insight into how a nation of people can be manipulated into giving their consent to a totally unjustified foreign war of aggression against Iraq, and might therefore be somewhat complicit in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of olive-skinned, funny-looking foreign guys with mustaches.

And that, unlike the movie, is not funny. People who consent to aggression and back leaders who are war criminals deserve to be embarrassed now and then, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 11:41 AM

"Was 'Borat' doing anything different to the bloke playing the Black Prince"

I don't much give a shite about either one.... And just because I think one thing in one situation, don't think you can paint every similar situation with the same brush...   That's pretty stupid.

I don't CARE that buddy fisted Cohen.... What I was commenting on was the fact that he seemed to do it because he thought Cohen was 'unstable'. He lashed out at someone he thought might be mentally ill....   That's pretty sad. I don't really know. I wasn't there.

Your "Prince's" situation, I know (and care) even less about.

So you can stuff that....

" I think most peoples definition"
MOST people are idiots.... What their definition of anything is, isn't worth hobo-snot....

So you can stuff that as well.

"Lox" and "Harlow"... You two need to come down off your high frigg'n horses... Your 'indignation' on behalf of people you don't know and are NEVER going to know is misguided and baseless. Your sputtering and hand wringing is only making Cohen's point more and more.

"the movie "Lost In Translation"
Speaking of movies that suck....

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Bagpuss
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 12:36 PM

Interesting Borat fact: Sacha Baron Cohen is the cousin of Simon Baron Cohen - one of the leading researchers of Autism (Director of the Autism Research Centre at Cambridge).

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Desdemona
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 01:56 PM

"People who consent to aggression and back leaders who are war criminals deserve to be embarrassed now and then"...exactly! The guy at the rodeo, who was giving Borat chapter and verse about how he ought to shave off his mustache so he wouldn't be mistaken for a terrorist, and shouldn't kiss people so as not to be taken for "one of those", just illustrates the point.

It was simultaneously hilarious and deeply disturbing that the crowd, inspired to cheers by Borat's affirmation of his country's support for the "war of terror", continued to clap at the wish that GW would "drink the blood of every man, woman and child in Iraq", only starting to boo when the Star Spangled Banner was set to the lyrics of a fictional "Kazakh" national anthem.

Unfortunately, sometimes it takes having something unpleasant shoved right under your nose to force you to examine a little more closely.

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 01:58 PM

Clinton,

I read, and what I read is that Khazaks are offended. Why is ultimately of course their business, and you are right to say that I may only speculate as to their motives for feeling that way.

But they do feel that way. They are angry. They aren't in on the joke.

If I was in a bar and my mates were taking the micky out of someone and that someone was obviously finding their approach offensive, I would stick up for the guy on the receiving end. That's what's happening here. Sorry to spoil your fun.

LH

I totally see your point, but reading it back I find it to be quite little-hawk-centric (not "eccentric", though I'm sure that one could easily be justified at a later date).

Of course you're not offended, it's not grossly caricaturing you. You aren't a khazak.

One of the reasons that the gollywog and other black cartoon characters, figures and figurines from the early 20th century and before were considered racist, was that they caricatured black people "according to racial characteristics". There were subtle differences, but as a rule, they had that in common.

Caricatures of others tended not to focus on racial characteristics, but on clearer distinguishing features that made the individual being caricatured unique.

Borat is a blanket caricature, not just of Khazaks, but of Arabs, middle easterners, and central asians.

It is without a doubt a racial caricature.

Ali G was better as he was a caricature of a fairly laughable attitude that really does exist in the UK. I have met people as stupid as him with the same deluded sense of their own hipness, who dress like him and contrive the same accent that he contrives in all seriousness.

The austrian fashion journalist has equal value for obvious reasons. (the clip above gives an example).

But Borat is not recognizable to me as anything other than a weak racial slur.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 02:13 PM

"what I read is that Khazaks are offended"
See above re: What to do with them if they can't take a joke....

"If I was in a bar and my mates were taking the micky out of someone and that someone was obviously finding their approach offensive, I would stick up for the guy on the receiving end."

Ya... sure you would... and your farts smell like roses too I'll bet....

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 02:30 PM

I treasure these rare moments when you and I sort of agree about something, Clinton... ;-) It reminds me that hidden inside every major jerk is a reasonable person still trying to get out.

I'm not a bit surprised you thought "Lost In Translation" sucked. After all, it didn't have any jokes involving shit, did it? And it revolved around love for humanity, not around a general contempt for and disgust with humanity. God, you must've hated it, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 02:33 PM

I imagine that Eastern Europe's Gypsies have survived a lot worse than being made fun of (possibly - haven't seen the film) by Sacha Baron Cohen. I suspect that they'll still be around when he's been forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 02:39 PM

"inside every major jerk is a reasonable person"
Too bad you don't let him out often enough :-P Heh

"it revolved around love for humanity"
It revolved around the swirl at the bottom of the toilet bowl, where it belonged.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 03:08 PM

Well, I have met many people from that part ofthe world, and hope to meet many more. I used to work in a relevant department at the University of Washington, and I can't remember exactly where everyone came from...many from Uzbekistan, many from Turkey, and many from places where they were expert horsemen and women and it might just have been Khazkastan..and I have had some contact, not much, with Romanians in my travels, and was in Salzburg the day the the evil dictator was taken down...there were many people I presume were Romanians in..oops..I think it was Vienna...in the train station..I thought..these can't be Austrians..they look so wretched...and I finally figured out where they were from. They aren't just being portrayed as ignorant (I have not yet seen the movie but will as soon as it comes to my small town) but guilty of great transgressions against morality and I can not believe that people would not find this offensive. I can not imagine anyone whom I have met from that neck of the woods to not be offended, just based on reviews, newspaper stories etc. It might be a very funny movie and it might have some subtle good intentions, but I think there were some very bad things done to decent people here. I suggest that people look up an old National Geographic magazine from years back when Romanians were still working in the tire factories and see what their lives were like then and probably still are for many..a woman in one room with 8 children and some of the children literally were naked...horrible stories coming out of the orphanages there where being a Gypsy condemened them to an awful unthinkable life...I could go on, but the point is, I don't know why they were used as they were or the Kazhakastanis were ridiculed as they are. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 03:14 PM

"I don't know why they were used as they were or the Kazhakastanis were ridiculed as they are"

In the movie you mean?? Cause it's just a FN joke, that's why....

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:29 PM

Your 'indignation' on behalf of people you don't know and are NEVER going to know is misguided and baseless.

An interesting principle there, that we are only entitled to object to bullying when we actually know the people being bullied.

Here's another vid - "QazaQ tradition and traditional QazaQ games". Looks an interesting place. I suppose one unintended side effect of all that may actually be a boom in Kazakhstan tourism. Once again, I think it'd be a great idea for Sacha Baron Cohen to take the act on a trip to Kazakhstan. It could make an intriguing sequel.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:33 PM

I doubt that he is that reckless... (grin) I figure he took his life in his hands already doing that national anthem bit at the rodeo. Ha! That film makes a lot more fun of Americans than it does of anyone else. It also makes fun of people who are simply terrified of Jews (and there are more than a few of them in this world).

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:41 PM

The thing that I fear is that someone like Cohen will do a film making fun of the cultural divide between me and Clinton Hammond. That could get really offensive! Let's hope it never happens.

I am beginning to fear that the money Raptor and I spent on those "Clinton Hammond World Tour" T-shirts was wasted. Wasted, I tell you. It's a shame. I guess we're going to have to use them as polishing cloths or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:45 PM

Brings to mind Alf Garnett. Was he making fun of black people or making fun of racists. Some people take a joke at face value and some will peel away the top couple of layers.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:51 PM

That film makes a lot more fun of Americans than it does of anyone else.

That's my impression (without seeing it) - making fun of a side of America that deserves to be made fun of. But doing so in a way that was pointlessly insulting to a third party who didn't deserve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:57 PM

Three third parties: Kazkastanis (if I had more time I would make sure I spelled their names right), Romanians, Gypsies, and Jews..ooops that is four and once I see the movie I will find more I bet. Although the Jews it sounds like were not so much made fun of as used for even more offensive targeting. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 08:26 PM

I admit to not having seen it yet. From what I glean I have to say--- THINK ANDY KAUFMAN.   Or THEODORE. Put ons done in a satirical mode and, frankly, they focus on people's prejudices that dop not indict Kazakhistan---more the U S and its idiotic bigots.   Subtle humor it is not---nor was Lenny Bruce making points.   Richard Pryor--making points.   But---CLEVER. A big YES. Think about his wonderful (Bruce) routine about the Southern used car salesman and his TV ad or his riff on interacial marriage (your siter will jump over 10 Charles Laughton to get to 1 Belafonte).

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 09:40 PM

But Cohen is a Jew, Guest. (Too bad, right, cos if he wasn't you could just scream and scream and scream about how anti-semitic it all is...)

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 10:13 PM

From experience...BORAT has a correct portrayal of ALL gypsies

Your separation into Romanian allienates the Pakistini, Indian, and Armenian families.

Without an appology to this thread...we will have no other recourse.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 03:52 AM

He lashed out at someone he thought might be mentally ill....   That's pretty sad. I don't really know. I wasn't there.

Say someone did something. Say it is sad. Then say you don't know if they realy did it. Yes, good, well reasoned point. Good of you to admit you don't realy know though:-)

MOST people are idiots

You know, I am begining to agree. That's a few things now, Clinton. I'd better start changing my views!

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 11:46 AM

"MOST people are idiots"

Maybe it takes one to know one?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 01:01 PM

Then you should already know, LH

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Desdemona
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 01:05 PM

You guys ought to just kiss and be friends!

Mom

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 01:17 PM

Kiss this

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 03:53 PM

Richard pryor caricatured black american attitudes - he was black

Mel brooks caricatured jewish attitudes - he was jewish

Alf Garnett caricatured middle english attitudes - guess what ... he was a middle englander

Cohen caricatures khazak attitudes - he's an educated Brit



Clinton - you just carry on sniffing my arse - maybe I'll grow you a bunch!

                         =')

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 04:48 PM

Yer all arse Lox.. I wouldn't know where to start or stop....

So you can only make fun of something if you are that thing??? What a stupid, blinkered approach to anything....   

Can you only sing opera of you're a fat white broad??? NO!
Can you only offer props to your "niggas" if you're black??? NO!

Can you only sing folk music if you're an ugly stodgey old boring white git in a beard? Thank FK NO!!

What a boring world you must live in, Lox.... I'm glad -I- don't live there.

(I'm sure you'll agree.)

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Lox
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 05:22 PM

Well I suppose you wouldn't know your arse from your elbow anyhow.

And yes my approach works because it prevents me from being too hard on easy targets such as you.

So you want play the leading lady at the Opera ... feel free.

And you like offering props to your "niggas" - well - if it makes you feel better ...(?)

As for boring old stodgy whiite gits living in beards, you clearly know a lot more about them than I do.

Perhaps that is why you demonstrate such curiosity for my world.

I think young Clit is developing a crush ...

Senor Jamon - I fear I must disappoint you. My arse and my world are not at your disposal.

That is not my disposition - and I am not disposed to changing - this position.

Though what my arse disposes of you are free to take into your possession.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 02:52 AM

Its a film!

Its no worse than so-called, biblical movies that villify Jews or movies that depict trailer trash as ignorant. Its a form of entertainment. Its comedy that makes you think.

I have to admit I have long enjoyed, Ali G.

Irreverent, yes, but he's funny and he really exposes ignorance.

I actually think that he's on to something.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Bagpuss
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 06:10 AM

You also have to remember that when Baron Cohen first started performing the character (on the 11 oclock show - a terrible show on the whole, but it did spawn the careers of both baron cohen and ricky gervais) he had no idea that he would end up making a blockbuster film and that the Khazaks would ever hear of him. If he had changed the character to coming from a fictional place once he became big, the accusations would all have been of him selling out to political correctness. In addition, if he had Borat come from a fictional country, he probably wouldn't have fooled so many people into revealing their stupid ugly side.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:12 AM

Grow the fuck up, Lox...

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:29 AM

he's just an arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:30 AM

that's sasha Cohen.

Dickhead and Arsehole of the first degree.

tom

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:44 AM

But Mr Jamon,

It's funny!

oh - aren't you enjoying it?

I'll back off then shall I?

ok.

your pal;

Rosy Farts.

(do you think bagels go as well with ham as they do with salmon)

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 11:19 AM

"So you can only make fun of something if you are that thing??? What a stupid, blinkered approach to anything...."

RIGHT fucking on!!!!!!!!! Again I agree with Clinton. It's a point I've been trying to make clear on this forum for years. I detest the kind of political correctness that has terrorized so many people into thinking that only blacks can be allowed to make jokes about blacks, only Jews can be permitted to make jokes about Jews...etc. (just name your favorite "victim" group and apply the principle with a broad brush)

So I agree with Clinton again. Hmmm. Gotta check and see if hell is freezing over too... (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 01:06 PM

if he had come from a fictional country, he probably wouldn't have fooled so many people into revealing their stupid ugly side.

You really think people like that would actually know the difference between Kazakhstan and one of the fictional countries in this list? For example Krakozhia or Novistrana or Zekistan.

Though of course many of those names were made up by people who might sue for breach of copyright. Using a real country removes that risk. You can't sue for breach of copyright just because you have been gratuitously insulted, and libel laws don't cover nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 01:56 PM

Jokes vary. There are ethnic jokes that can reasonably be told by outsiders, but they aren't the only ones.

And of course there are plenty of "jokes" which aren't jokes at all, just insults told as a way of bonding with other racists or whatever. And what I take Sacha Baron Cohen as having being doing was to play with that concept, as a way of exposing the racists and bigots for what they are. Fair enough, but Kazakhs didn't deserve to be insulted in the process.

And before Clinton jumps in with his assumption that no one is ever going to see anyone from Kazakhstan, so they don't matter, one of my wife's language students last year was a girl from Kazakhstan living in my town. Our world today is both a lot bigger than it used to be, and a lot smaller.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 03:14 PM

VERY, VERY FUNNY FILM

Knowing that Mr. Cohen is Jewish, and studied at Cambridge, and researched the Third Reich adds to the enjoyment.

It is amazing how he is able to get public personages to display their anti-semitism.

A short trailer of his material:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGM5SdRve78

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 03:31 PM

The crucial thing with humour, and with judging the merits of humour, is its quality AS humour...what it reveals about the human situation...whether or not it has a point to make that is relevant in some way...whether or not it is funny, witty, effective in some way AS humour....whether or not it enlightens, makes aware, or stimulates laughter effectively...

...NOT who makes the joke and about whom.

Therefore it is a complete red herring and a diversion driven by political correctness to complain about humour being made about any group of people by a person who is not a member of that group of people. There is no reason why a member of one group should be censured for making a joke about a member of another group...unless the joke itself deserves censure for some reason.

It is not the source of the joke, but rather the joke itself that should be judged on its own merits.

And therein lies the hypocrisy of a society that at present absolutely will not tolerate, for example, anyone but a Jew making jokes about Jews...or a black making jokes about blacks...or any similar situation to that.

There is a lot of fear out there. Fear is not a good basis on which to establish a free society with people who are capable of thinking for themselves. Matter of fact, it establishes the opposite: conformity and predictable knee-jerk reactions as people judge the book by its cover, not its content.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 03:36 PM

It would help if someone corrected the title of this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film hits some wrong targets?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 04:03 PM

There's a big difference between telling a bunch of people about all the stupid things you've done in your time, and the occasions you've made a complete prat of yourself - and sitting there listening to someone else doing that.

There's a line between the kind of good-natured ribbing we all have to learn to accept, and bullying and cruelty. Quite where that line is drawn can vary - but you know when it's been crossed, whether thoughtlessly or intentionally. And it isn't just a question of whether the stories are actually funny or not. An anecdote about some personal humiliation which might actually be funny when told by the person to whom it happened could be like a blow to the face recounted by a third party.

It's no different really when it come to jokes or "jokes" about disability or race or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 04:15 PM

Why is it that so many of those who can't laugh at themseves, find it perfectly acceptable to laugh at others?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 04:19 PM

True, McGrath, true. It is the job of a professional comedian, however, to make fun of just about everybody, is it not? The viewer has to judge for themselves whether or not he has "crossed the line" that you refer to. It's a very subjective business.

I recall when "All In The Family" was a hot show in the early 70's...and the most strident objections to it came from rightwingers who claimed that the show was engaging in racist humour and various other forms of humour that were offensive to minorities!

Is that not the epitome of irony? ;-) (since the show was deliberately satirizing racism and bigotry in the person of Archie Bunker in order to show how stupid it is to be a racist and a bigot...)

Similarly, Borat is showing how stupid it is to be a racist, a bigot, a jerk, etc...(whether or not you come from the USA or from Khazakstan)

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film hits some wrong targets?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 04:55 PM

Borat is showing how stupid it is to be a racist, a bigot, a jerk, etc...(whether or not you come from the USA or from Kazakhstan)

I'm not disagreeing with that, or criticising that. But I don't think pulling Kazakhstan into it was either fair or necessary.

I find myself agreeing with Kazakhs who have indicated that they think he did "cross the line". And Little Hawk's comment in response to my suggestion that Cohen might try taking the act on tour in Kazakhstan - "I doubt that he is that reckless..." indicates a recognition that this isn't just a matter of politicians making political points. (Actually I think it is quite likely that he will pay a visit to Kazakhstan before that long, though perhaps not "in character".)

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 05:04 PM

I heard that he had created the character some time ago as a man from Khazakstan...but he didn't know at that time that he would eventually be doing it in a major movie release...thus attracting a lot of international attention. These things have a way of growing quietly, with unforseen consequences farther down the line.

Look at it from the point of view of the Khazaks themselves. What would better serve them? To laugh at the ridiculous nature of this movie, shrug, and let it roll off them like water off a duck's back....or to get all bent out of shape about it and get furious and self-defensive and huffy and be in a lousy mood for ages and issue death threats and generally lose control of themselves?

You can give your power away by getting upset or you can choose not to do that when something like this happens.

I would have forgotten about this movie 5 minutes out of the theatre if not for this thread. ;-) I suggest that in a month from now it will not seem very important anymore and in a year it will be mostly forgotten by just about everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 07:53 PM

Borat's song 'Throw the Jew down the well' was sung in a small country western bar with a small stage.
What I found true to life was how certain people who initially reacted with distain or disgust slowly joined in with the crowd who sung the lyrics with glee.

Human beings are funny animals. They think they have a mind of their own but fall in step with conformity easier than you might ever expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 09:06 PM

Harry Enfield's Stavros turnming the tables on every Saturday night drunk who slurred their kebab order - Borat is not new. The only people having the piss taken out of them are some Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 10:02 PM

Listen folks,

Either you stick up for Clinton or you agree with him.

You can't have it both ways.

If he's right then anyones fair game.

But if everyone's fair game then he's a hypocrite for getting all defensive when I made him look like a donkey.

Maybe, just maybe, there is a line that can be crossed.

I pissed Clinton off when I crossed his.

____________________________________________________

Come on folks, lets apply some observational skills.

Who's gone all quiet - and who is usually impossible to shut up.



I'm drunk - I've just got home from a bender - I'll add more when I'm sober

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 11:01 PM

You didn't piss me off in the least Lox... You don't have the ability to affect me in ANY way....

You're just a sad little git....

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 01:57 AM

Sorry... but from what I've seen of him, I'll pass. He's too mean for me...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:04 AM

Yeah, you just like to pretend you're upset, dontcha, Clint, baby? It gets 'em goin', doesn't it? No one can affect you, probably not even your wife, right? You're impervious. You're either above it all or more likely below it all. I'm a lot like that too sometimes, and some people think I'm a jerk because of it, but I don't care. Still, I never met an ape with less natural grace than you. Maybe you are the missin' link, pal. If so, let's hope it stays missin' for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:09 AM

I disagree with Clinton most of the time on most issues, lox, but I just happen to agree with several things he said about this movie.

As I have said before on this thread, the crucial thing about humour is that it should succeed AS humour...and I believe that Mr Cohen has, for the most part, succeeded in that respect in this case. Has he verged into bad taste at times? Yes. But he has also done some darned good social satire.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: fumblefingers
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:23 AM

Borat is hillarious. Humor, it is said, is a function of intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:53 AM

I Like It

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Nickhere
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 12:19 PM

I saw the Borat movie, and I have to say I laughed a lot out loud, as did most of the cinema. I know some of the jokes are rather scurrilous, but I think there is something within human nature that enjoys someone who flouts 'the rules' - the reason why we also like some eccentrics. Analysing humour too much simply kills it (note the American 'joke coach' with his whiteboard and 'NOT' jokes - the very antithesis of humour) but I guess one reason it's so funny is precisely because it's so outrageous. You wonder 'did he actually say / do that?' I suspect some of the scenes are set up, but others are clearly not, the reactions are way too real.

The college guys suing because they were 'plied with drink' beforehand (that must have been a real struggle!). My guess is that they are simply embarrased about how badly they showed themselves up, and rather than learn a lesson from it, they think 'someone must pay' - classic case of denial. They could see cameras were rolling.

Romanians suing Borat? They agreed the wages they got beforehand, and evidently at the time thought it was a good deal. Maybe when they realised how much the movie was making they decided to go for a bigger cut of the pie. As for not realising it was a satire, surely the couldn't fail to notice the horse pulling the car etc., I don't buy their story about being conned.

The Kazahkis - well, now we reach a real problem. Maybe it wsn't very nice for Borat to poke fun at a nation and it's people, and I'm not surprised they don't like it. I probably wouldn't like my country being portrayed this way (which it has often in the past). But I think Borat's (Cohen's) idea was to pick a suitably obscure country so people wouldn't be able to easily check up on his credentials, and his behaviour, being an unknown, could be believable. He could have picked an imgainary country but then anyone who decided to check him up would have rumbled him and the joke would be over. He could spend some money promoting Kazahkstan to make up for it.

Jokes that don't offend anyone. Here's a good clean, PC joke:

"A person, a person and a person walk into a bar...."


BTW - I am betting that the 'Kazakhi National Anthem' will make it into the charts yet

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 12:55 PM

Here's a page with the various anthems they've had over the years. They've a new one that came in this year, which is pretty good. Nice words too, though the chorus words in English are a bit strange at one point:

Golden sun in heaven,
Golden corn in steppe,
Legend of courage -
It is my land.
In hoary antiquity
Our glory was born,
Proud and strong
Is my Kazakh people

CHORUS
My country, my country,
As your flower I'll grow,
As your song I'll stream, country!
My native land - Kazakhstan!

I've a boundless expanse
And a way, opened in future.
I have an independent,
United people.
Like an ancient friend
Our happy land,
Our happy people
Is welcoming new time.

But the one they had before sounds better to me. (They both knock God Save The Queen into a cocked hat, but then so would Yellow Submarine, which I have long thought should be adopted in its place.)

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:52 PM

Nickhere,

Thanks for your post. I think it offers the first deeply thought out argument in support of the use of the Khazak mask.

Only he is obviously a good enough actor not to need such an obscure idiom. Ali G and he Austrian fashionista both operate on home turf.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 04:08 PM

In this clip the press attache to the Kazakhstan embassy (probably the one in London) suggests "Boratistan" might have been a better name to use for the imaginary country Borat uses to tease the Americans with. Asked hiow Kazakhs feel about this he says "mixed feelings" about it all - but he is pretty relaxed about the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Lox
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 04:55 PM

Relaxed or diplomatic?

He is after all press officer for the Khazak diplomatic service.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 09:51 AM

I;ve got it on DVD, its nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 10:01 AM

I'd love to see what the Kazakh comedians come up with in response... The difference is, they'd be exaggerating real aspects of our societies. And it wouldn't be too pretty.

No doubt it'll turn up on YouTube, and we can see how our own sense of humour stands up in the face of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 08:56 PM

Here's an interesting coment on all this "Top Kazakh Rabbi: In My Country There's No Problem"

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:23 AM

Mr Cohen was at a jewish party for the old jews, and he stood up and sang anti jewish songs.

the guy is arsehole racist, facist.

I wouldn't be suprised if he joined the neo nazis as a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:35 AM

No sympathy for the college kids whatsoever. With the Kazakhs it's a different story. It seems he ridiculed them, paid them poorly and may have misled them. Why is this not so? His real target may have been US prejudice--but it comes out like a minstrel show--complete with blackface--or, if done by blacks, with whiteface.

What's the view of those who think "Borat''s behavior was fine regarding minstrel shows?


And as far as the pay--they may have thought it was easy money--and they took it--but it seems to be sharp practice on "Borat's" part--he paid as little as possible.

And that sure won't help a real problem--anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 01:02 PM

He obviously has a strong need to be the centre of attention, doesn't he? He reminds me a lot of Groucho Marx, who was reportedly an asshole both onscreen and off...but a lot of people found him very funny. I could take him or leave him.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:11 PM

He reminds me a lot of Groucho Marx

Interesting. The Moustache for a start. And Groucho's ruthless way with his straight guys and straight girls (though of course they were actors). But the thing that made the Marx Bros films work were that they were an ensemble, and so far as I'm aware there is no trace of that with Cohen so far.

Maybe that's the next stage. No one had had the nerve to remake the Marx Bros films so far, but...

With Cohen as Groucho, any nominations for Chico and Harpo?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:54 PM

Too bad Woody Allen is gettin' too old for that shtick, otherwise he could fit right in there. How about Adam Sandler?

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:01 PM

[quote]

2A THE WICHITA EAGLE
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 2006

Borat nominated

A leading Kazakh writer has nominated actor Sacha Baron Cohen for a national award for popularizing Kazakhstan. Novelist Sapabek Asipuly called on the Kazakh Club of Art Patrons to give Cohen its annual award, according to a letter published by the Vremya newspaper Thursday.

Cohen's fictional Kazakh character Borat "has managed to spark an immense interest of the whole world in Kazakhstan, something our authorities could not do during the years of independence," said Asipuly, who chairs the writers' guild "The Land and Destiny of Kazakhs." Authorities in the ex-Soviet republic have been enraged by Borat's unflattering portrayal of Kazakh life in the spoof documentary, "Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit of Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan."

[end quote]

Kazakhstan undoubtedly does have an "image problem," much like one of my many digital photos where the flash didn't go off. Blow it up and brighten it using all the best tools available, and all you get is blotches and blurs and funny colors. Nothing could benefit the country more than a "sensational" spotlight that their own ambassador can turn in their direction.

Whether the ambassador's complaints were due to real indignation, or whether he's smart enough to see an op for needed/wanted publicity is immaterial to me. I don't see this movie greatly harming the national reputation, since the country has little reputation of any kind to begin with for most who may see the movie. (Or at least for any who would have seen it without the "controversy" generated by threads like this one all around the world.)

For all I know, the publicists for the movie may have made a substantial donation to the ambassador's favorite Kazakh charity in exchange for his "public complaint" since it certainly would be expected to generate - and has generated - publicity of mutual benefit to them both.

I haven't seen the movie, and probably won't. IF I SHOULD HAPPEN to see it, perhaps then I'll be able to have an opinion on its artistic merits and cultural significance; but until then it's in my file with stories about hollywood marriages and divorces and drunken/drug-blotted arrests, rehabs, tossed computers, and "political opinions" from spoiled brats.

But do carry on.

I think I'll take a nap.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:50 PM

Har! Har! Now they're gettin' smart. They should milk this thing for all they can, and they could make millions out of it with tourists and new business.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: mg
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:07 PM

Great idea Chongo Chimp. Maybe they can go to Kenya next and make fun of the villagers with AIDS and children eating out of garbage dumps...oops that is for real...but anyway it might bring them some tourism. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:18 PM


A leading Kazakh writer has nominated actor Sacha Baron Cohen for a national award for popularizing Kazakhstan

I sense a cunning ploy here, worthy of teh man himself. Sacha Baron Cohen is flattered into turning up for the award ceremonmy.

The doors close behind him. He suddenly feels very alone. "Hullo Mr Borat - we have been hoping you would pay us a visit"...

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 12:28 AM

Ha! Now, that is funny, McGrath.

You don't scare me one bit, mg.

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 11:09 AM

I'd still like to know why this movie is not a "minstrel show".

Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 11:16 AM

I'd still like to know why this movie is not a "minstrel show".

I suppose you could make the "Stepinfechit argument" to support the movie. Kazahkstan would never get a lot of publicity unless it was party to self-ridicule--just as blacks could not get steady screen work in Hollywood in the 30's unless party to self-ridicule.