BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 02:28 PM

"But the whole thing is a tragedy. And the heart of the tragedy is that the two peoples have been unable to find a way to share the whole of the Holy Land between them."

Quite so.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,sorfingers
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 07:01 PM

Dignity! my Oirish rearend; the Pals will turn it into yet another pile of useless sand, while the Israelis would have made it into a prosperous 'JOB CREATING' economy for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: bobad
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 07:15 PM

Raise a glass to Mort Zuckerman.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 07:43 PM

the jews moving out will stop nothing,the fanatics in the mid east will not be happy until they have achieved there ststed goal[probaly will not be happy then either]and that being the total destruction of the jews as a people[they wish to finish what hitler and others before and after him have started]don'nt believe it,check the history of this 'disput'.
have a nice day anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 08:23 PM

People generally tend to see the history they know is there before they check it. And ignore the stuff that doesn't match their preconceptions.

A term like "check it" rather gives the game away. It rather implies going through the record, ticking off the points that fit.

A bit like going through a tune and picking out a particular note and adding up the number of times it occurs,and then saying it must be the key note. That's not the same as trying to understand how the tune goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: jpk
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 08:26 PM

no,i leave it for you to choose the points,iwill not sit here and post only points i pick to prove my point.it is there in the history.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:14 PM

Considering the fact that, as more than one person has noted in this thread, Jews were living in the area for quiet a long time before the Europeans showed up, and the pretty undeniable fact that the "Arabs" did NOT kill them all off in ALL of that time, and considering the fact that they certainly had the means to do so during that time, I think we can safely say that any claims that this has been their aim all along (or even that it is their aim now) are total bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:15 PM

*quite* a long time

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:18 PM

CarolC,

So you claim that the Arabs in genneral, and the Palestinians in particular, are liars? They SAY that that is their goal, thewy teach that in their schools, and they did render the West bank Judenfrei after 1948.... I guess we should not believe them.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:28 PM

I think that you are just repeating some of the anti-Palestinian hype that you've been told, beardedbruce . There are Jews living in Palestinian villages in the "occupied territories" right now, as I type this, who are not being harmed in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:29 PM

Who were not there between 1948 and 1967.

But I still refer to the textbooks used in Palestinian schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:32 PM

Yes, and that lie about the Palestinian textbooks has been debunked. You are the one who is being taught to hate through these kinds of lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:59 AM

The trouble is, when people know "the truth" to start with, any attempt to examine and explore the actual records and to establish the facts are going to be dismissed as obsessional, as Carol has experienced.

It is a complicated story, and there has been many wrong things done on both sides - but I do not think any genuinely objective person can escape the conclusion that in the relationships between Zionists and Palestinians over the years the balance of injustice has been carried out by and on behalf of the newcomers. That's really got nothing to do with Zionism as such - it is something which has generally been the case in all cases where technologically advanced societies have established overseas colonies.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:05 AM

It's probably worth noting that, with Jews, Arabs, Palestinians, and many others in the area from several hundred BC right to the present day, many of the Palestinians will actually be descended from Jews who intermarried at such times when it was relatively easy to do so (like it is now in the west).

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 11:06 AM

Or whose Jewish ancestors converted to another religion at some point in the last 2000 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 11:13 AM

Or perhaps more accurately, to a different variety of what is essentially the same religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 03:36 PM

http://www.edume.org/reports/1/report.htm



Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace



Founded in 1998, CMIP examines the content of school textbooks used in the Middle East, to determine whether children are being taught to accept and recognize the right of the "other" to exist. It is our belief that education should be utilized to encourage an attitude of tolerance, pluralism, and democracy, and to promote peaceful means of solving conflicts.

As a non-profit, non-political organization, our purpose is to identify what is being taught in the schools with regard to recognition and acceptance of the "other" by drawing on the text itself, rather than the interpretation of it. Pioneers in the field of textbook analysis, CMIP endeavors to present a clear picture of how different countries instruct and educate their youth with regard to different religions, societies, cultures, democratic values and the "other".



What's New?



In June 2005 CMIP presented its most recent report on the Palestinian National Authority textbooks for grades 5 and 10. Published in 2004, these are the latest in the series of autonomous textbooks published by the Ministry of Education, for use in schools throughout the Palestinian National Authority.

.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 03:49 PM

Foundation for Middle East Peace

Democracy, History, and the Contest over the Palestinian Curriculum
A study by Prof. Nathan Brown, Georgetown University

"In 1999 and 2000, I conducted research on the establishment of the new Palestinian curriculum by collecting documents, textbooks, and interviewing Palestinian educators. Since that time, I have continued the research by surveying new textbooks and following discussions of educational issues by Palestinian educators. This research was supported by a Fulbright grant through the United States-Israel Educational Foundation (USIEF) and another grant from the United States Institute of Peace (USIP). The conclusions of the research are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views either of USIEF or USIP.

My research—and the attached paper—focus primarily on the role of democracy in the new curriculum. Nevertheless, I could not ignore the international controversy surrounding Palestinian textbooks and the many claims that they incite violence and racial hatred. I was therefore surprised to find books that were far less incendiary than portrayed; most were perfectly innocuous.

Most accusations against the books are based on reports from the "Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace" (CMIP). Although that organization presents reports that are tendentious and misleading, few independent reviews have been conducted. Therefore CMIP reports--which seek to obscure rather than highlight the very significant changes that have been made--are not frequently challenged. I hope that my own review of Palestinian textbooks can assist those interested in a more impartial assessment...

...Upon assuming responsibility over Palestinian education in 1994, the Palestinian Authority (PA) restored the Jordanian and Egyptian curriculum in their entirety as an interim measure. This included the use of books that contained sharply anti-Israeli and even anti-Semitic material. It is based on these books that the strongest charges have been levied. Criticisms of that decision are fair, but must be viewed in conjunction with the following facts:

* The PA determined from the beginning to replace these books and formed a curriculum development center to draft a new set of books. This decision came not as a response to international pressure but instead was a Palestinian initiative (though some international funding was available). The plan developed by that center has proceeded according to schedule.

* The PA issued a series of National Education books for grades 1-6 to supplement the Egyptian and Jordanian books while the new books were being written. Those books were devoid of any anti-Semitic or anti-Israeli material.

* Oddly, Israel allowed the offensive Jordanian books to be used in the East Jerusalem schools but barred the innocuous PA-authored books, probably fearful that use of the PA books would be an implicit recognition of sovereignty.

* The new curriculum is now going into effect. The first and sixth grade textbooks were introduced in 2000. The second and seventh grade books were introduced in 2001. Books for the remaining grades will be introduced two at a time until the entire school system has switched over.

In short, the PA should be credited with removing racist and anti-Semitic material from the curriculum, not for maintaining it. And international assistance has supported replacement of the offensive material, not its composition."

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: The Curator
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 04:39 PM

CarolC, You just get better by the post. A credit to this site.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 04:47 PM

Palestinian textbooks: Where is all that 'incitement'?

Roger Avenstrup International Herald Tribune

Saturday, December 18, 2004

"Jerusalem - Palestinian textbooks contain incitement to hatred of Israel, right? Both President George W. Bush and President Bill Clinton have said so. Zionist groups constantly lobby European foreign ministries to stop support for Palestinian textbooks on that basis, and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon affirmed it at a recent Likud party meeting.

Detailed analyses of the textbooks have been done by research institutes. The U.S. Consulate General in Jerusalem commissioned studies from the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI), and in Europe the Georg Eckert Institute facilitated research. Research papers have also been published in international fora such as the Hebrew University's Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, the Palestine-Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture, and presented at the Oslo Coalition on Freedom of Religion or Belief.

At the political level, a U.S. Senate subcommittee on Palestinian education and the Political Committee of the European Parliament have both held hearings on the matter. No country's textbooks have been subjected to as much close scrutiny as the Palestinian.

The findings? It turns out that the original allegations were based on Egyptian or Jordanian textbooks and incorrect translations. Time and again, independently of each other, researchers find no incitement to hatred in the Palestinian textbooks.

The European Union has issued a statement that the new textbooks are free of inciting content and the allegations were unfounded. The IPCRI 2003 report states that the overall orientation of the curriculum is peaceful and does not incite to hatred or violence against Israel and the Jews, and the 2004 report states that there are no signs of promoting hatred toward Israel, Judaism or Zionism, nor toward the Western Judeo-Christian tradition or values."

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:08 PM

Sorry if I re-hash some of the above, but this being a very long thread I may have overlooked a few things and am repeating them. But---a brief history (of recent time):   

    1 Gaza:   Under Egyptian control until the 1967 war that not started by Israel.   Did the Egyptians offer the Palestinians a state there---NO.   
       Israel never intended to hang on to Gaza--merely use it as a bargaining chip w/ the Arab nations. The mistake was in encouraging the settlements.   Doing the right thing now does cause grief amongst those who were encouraged to go there, but one has to admit to a higher moral posture by Israel in working for peace

2)   Israeli terrorists:---One isolated incident---and tragic. The man was, I believe, promptly arrested.

3)   Jerusalem:   How quickly it is forgotten---perhaps intentionally so---that the city was off limits to Jews when it was in Arab hands. Once it came under Israeli control the city was open to all and jointly patrolled w/ Jordanian police.   All holy sites were respected--including Arab. Would that such a thing had occurred prior to Israeli getting control---also a thing that came about, fortuitously, I add, at the Arab instigation hostilities once again.

So---just a brief history to clear up some of the comments by a few folks here---mostly one--who always manage forget or fail to mention historical facts that do not line up with their pre-conceived and biased notions.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:27 PM

Quite a few incidents of Israeli terrorism. Not just one.

The Palestinians did not start the 1967 war, and yet they are the only ones who are being punished for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:40 PM

BTW, until about three years ago, all of my "pre-conceived and biased notions" were very much in line with those of people like Bill H, since I received the very same anti-Arab, anti-Palestinian indoctrination as he received while growing up.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:25 PM

Terrorism has taken a different form on both sides.

The essential thing about terrorism is that it involves the use of violence against non-combatants as a way of promoting some kind of political or quasi-political agenda.

Usinmg tta definition of terrorism it is apparentn that freelance terrorism, not carried out by agents of the official authorities has been more characteristic of the Palestinians, andn that official terrorism, carried out by agents of the official authorities, has been more characteristic of the Israelis.

But when it comes to the actual numbers of people of all ages killed - including children - and property destroyed, the balance has been very much on one side. Once again, this is in no way peculiar to Israel or to Zionism, it is what typically happens in colonial wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:26 PM

Here we go again--Carol.

First--do not presume to know the indoctrination I rcvd whilst growing up. My history is a lot more complex than that--and more involved w/those years that encompossed the war years and the founding of Israel.

In fact I am not "indoctrinated" ---as you seem to be. Perhaps, "educated", "open minded", or "seeing a historical perspective" might be a better phrase---yours is confrontational. But--as you admit--you were "indoctrinated".

"Quite a few incidents of Israeli terrorism"--we were only speaking of Gaza earlier---yes, few fanatics that were promptly arrested (brought to justice) or had killed themselves.

No one claimed that the Palestinians started the 1967 war. The Arab nations did--at the behest of Nassar of Egypt. Until that time the Palestinians in Gaza were---as said--under Egyptian control--and a harsh control it was. Egyptians, you should know, are not Arabs.

Egypt and Jordan have--for want of a better phrase--buried the hatched (thankfully not in each other's craniums) and together they have come to a detente that benefits all. Would the other Arab nations felt the same. Palestinians have a real problem---their brethren want no part of them. That is tragic.   

How did it come about that Jordan and Egypt have this detente---think "strength" on Israel's part prior to the wars and to Sadat's willingness to resolve an untenable situation.

Your earlier note about the Arabs not demolishing the Jewish population prior to the formation of Israel is not truly accurate---they sure as hell tried. Think of the riots and the killings when the Mufti urged.

Study history and do not presume to know my background ye of such vast knowledge gleaned from Google snippets.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: pdq
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:43 PM

Bill H,

I'm with you on most of this, but are you sure that Egyptians are not Arab? My understanding is that Kurds, Turks, Persians and Berbers are not Arab, but that nearly everyone else is. The Arabs are the "bully boys" of the Middle East and have driven all their rivals out to the margin of "their land", and are now slaughtering Black Africans in Sudan, as well as oppressing Berbers in Algeria and Morocco. Here is a brief statement on the subject:


"Pan-Arabism   
Related: International Organizations


general term for the modern movement for political unification among the Arab nations of the Middle East. Since the Ottoman Turks rose to power in the 14th cent., there have been stirrings among Arabs for reunification as a means of reestablishing Arab political power. At the start of World War I, France and Great Britain, seeking allies against the German-Turkish alliance, encouraged the cause of Arab nationalism under the leadership of the Hashemite Sherif Husayn ibn Ali , a descendant of Muhammad. As ruler of Mecca and a religious leader of Islam, he had great influence in the Arab world, an influence that continued with his two sons, Abdullah and Faisal ( Faisal I of Iraq). From the 1930s, hostility toward Zionist aims in Palestine was a major rallying point for Arab nationalists.     The movement found official expression after World War II in the Arab League and in such unification attempts as the Arab Federation (1958) of Iraq and Jordan, the United Arab Republic , the Arab Union (1958), the United Arab Emirates , and the Arab Maghreb Union (see under Maghreb ). The principal instrument of Pan-Arabism in the early 1960s was the Ba'ath party , which was active in most Arab states, notably Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen. Gamal Abdal Nasser of Egypt, who was not a Ba'athist, expressed similar ideals of Arab unity and socialism.

    The defeat of the Arabs in the Arab-Israeli War of 1967 and the death (1970) of Nasser set back the cause of Pan-Arabism. In the early 1970s, a projected merger between Egypt and Libya came to nought. However, during and following the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, the Arab states showed new cohesion in their use of oil as a major economic and political weapon in international affairs. This cohesion was fractured by the signing of the Camp David accords between Egypt and Israel and by the Iran-Iraq War . Pan-Arabist rhetoric was used by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein in an attempt to stir opposition the UN coalition forces during the Persian Gulf War , but many Arab nations joined the anti-Iraq coalition."

(copy 'n' paste, reproduced without permission)

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:50 PM

http://www.betar.co.uk/articles/betar1057183655.php

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/Israel/palestinians_teach.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/578102/posts

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:50 PM

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=14902

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:03 PM

By definition, PDQ, they are African.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM

Actually the 1967 war was initiated by Israel, in a preemptive strike. The same ws true in 1956. Israel has always argued that if they'd waited the other side would have in fact attacked, which is the logic behind preemptive strikes. But it was in fact Israel who opened hostilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:15 PM

Bill H, don't keep trying to blame the Mufti on the Palestinians generally. We both know who appointed him to that postion (against the wishes of the majority of Palestinians).

The fact that you continue to blame the Palestinians for things over which most of them never had any control, and you continue to try to justify their continued captivity using these things is proof enough that you have been endoctrinated.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:16 PM

When looking historically at the issue, there have been switches in power between different religious and ethnic groups in that region for an extremely long time. Years would go by peacefully when groups lived together no problem. Then years would come with taxation upon the those that weren't in power by those that were. And then war pursued and this cycle continued and still continues. When the nation of Israel was carved from the surrounding countries, many people were displaced, left homeless in a place that had been their homes. While researching this for a thesis, I was shocked and still am at the apparent lack of concern for the people living in the disputed areas. And today I'm still aggrevated by the situation. While I wish all those originally displaced could return to their old homes, I realize that isn't necessarily realistic and so I've become concerned about the Israelis living there currently. My opinion echoes that of many on the board when I believe that the returning of land to Palestine has been a long time in coming and it something that should happen. At the same time, it's very difficult for me to see and read about people being cleared from their homes because control is being restored to Palestine. Give power back, absolutely. But if those people chose to remain in their homes, they should be allowed, knowing that there are consequences that may follow. I even understand that maybe the Israeli feels they are protecting those citizens by dragging them from their homes, but if those people are willing to stay and live in Palestine and face what is to come, they should be allowed. It reminds me too much of the removal of Catholics from their homes in the North of Ireland, having been "encouraged" to move. If people are willing to try to live in renewed Palestinian lands, wish them luck after informing them of the possibilities that await them. Let them determine their own future without Sharon getting his already bloodied hands on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:24 PM

So, please someone, anyone, inform me the purpose behind their removal as explained by the Israeli government. Was it something asked for by the Palestinians? I'm hoping to be able to get over this issue because it just makes me angry, so hopefully any information you can give to me will help. Thank-you.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: pdq
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:58 PM

Epona,


1,500,000 Arabs in Gaza

       8,200 Jews

game, set, match

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 08:20 PM

Epona---you may well have hit the nail on the proverbial head. In a proper and caring world it would work.    Unfortunately, given today's circumstances, I doubt it would. I wish it were so. It would be the perfect solution. It may well be that given that option--and hoping for open mindedness on both sides it could work. There were some philanthropists here in the U S (from the Jewish community) that raised 14 million dollars to buy and preserve the greenhouses so that the Palestinians could take them rather than have them destroyed by the settlers or the govt.   A right and courageous step.


And---Carol---as usual a diatribe with no basis in fact. Mufti---you tell us who appointed this person.   Do I blame Palestinians---read my posting---their brethren who want no part of these poor souls---and who instigated every incursion. 1948-9 and on.

As to your spelling---well, I am open minded---indoctrinated---unless you are having a problem with endocrine glands and they are filled with some strange fluid---then, perhaps, they are endocrintated.

Get well soon.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 09:33 PM

pdq and Bill H -

Thanks for reply. In a perfect world, so many things would be different. If the settlers are willing to stay and live in the land handed back over to the Palestinians though, whether there are 1,500,000 or 1500 Arabs in Gaza, let them stay as long as they realize what it is they may face.

Though, pdq, I did like the "game, set, match". It does tend to sum up the situation!

Thanks again.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Aug 05 - 11:55 PM

Mufti---you tell us who appointed this person.   Do I blame Palestinians---read my posting---their brethren who want no part of these poor souls---and who instigated every incursion. 1948-9 and on.

Herbert Samuel appointed Haj Amin al-Husseini to the position of Mufti even though al-Husseini's opposition received more votes from the Palestinian leadership than he. The Palestinian leadership considered al-Husseini to be a thug, and with good reason. Samuel had him released from prison where he was serving time for inciting riots and appointed him to the post of Mufti.

al-Husseini didn't just kill Jews. He also killed many moderate Arabs as well. And the Palestinians have been punished for the things done by this man ever since. Even though it was not a Palestinian, but a British Jew who appointed him to this position, and even though the Palestinians didn't want him. If you don't like the things done by the Mufti, you have one of your own co-religionists to thank for them. Stop blaming the Palestinians for that one.

And to try to justify the atrocious treatment of the Palestinians by Israel by blaming them for the way other Arab countries have treated them is about as absurd as it can possibly get. If your neighbor was beating his wife, would you go and beat her too, just on principle? Well, it wouldn't surprise me if you did. But the police and the courts wouldn't take a very kind view of that sort of behavior.

And the Palestinians did not instigate any incursions. And yet you think it is perfectly acceptible to punish them for what others are supposed to have done. Do you think it would be right for someone to punish you for what Herbert Samuel did, just because you are (were, in Samuel's case) Jewish? Of course not. And yet you advocate doing exactly that to the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 04:12 AM

I think it should be pointed out that Gaza is approximately one hundredth of the area of the original Palestine----

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:47 AM

Palestinians...who instigated every incursion....

Rather the same way the First Americans instigated every incursion against the subsequent Americans...

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 07:34 PM

OK==let us get our quotes straight here:

Incursions----I said Arabs (Arab nations) not Palestinians. Try for accuracy folks.

Mufti---I don't care who appointed him. He caused the bloodbath.

Now--Carol=-=-as usual you step into the gutter---"co-religionist", "my indoctrination", and other such slanders.

When you twist the quotes to suit your ends you are about as good as debating as Elmer Fudd.   

As to punishing Palestinians---I, nor anyone I know, wants to punish them. They were, and are, sadly, pawns that were used by the various Arab nations for their agendas. Had they (ARABS)(cap letters so you do not misunderstand---or misquote in your usual style---not started this traging ball rolling after the UN declarion (l940s) none of this would be happening.

NOw--Carol===let me write 4 letters---ABCD---see if you can misquote that. Do you think you can change that to WXYZ---here comes the Lone Ranger.


Bill Hahn

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 08:58 PM

Incursions----I said Arabs (Arab nations) not Palestinians. Try for accuracy folks.

Yes, I understand that. But you are trying to justify punishing the Palestinians for what was done by other groups of Arabs. If you have a problem with what those other groups of Arabs have done, take it up with them. But stop trying to justify punishing the Palestinians for things that have been done by others.

Mufti---I don't care who appointed him. He caused the bloodbath.

This is true. But it wasn't a problem that was created by the majority of Palestinians. So stop trying to justify punishing them because of something over which they had no control.

Now--Carol=-=-as usual you step into the gutter---"co-religionist", "my indoctrination", and other such slanders.

Gutter? Slander? There is nothing gutterish or slanderous about anything I have said. You are holding all people of Arab and Palestinian ancestry responsible for the acts of some Arabs and some Palestinians, but when it is pointed out to you that some of the people who belong to the group you identify with have contributed to the problems that they are facing in the Middle East, you call it slander.

Well, at least, unlike you, I don't believe in holding all members of any group responsible for the actions of only some members of those groups.

And if you don't like people pointing out the fact that it was someone who belongs to the group you identify with who is responsible for the blood bath created by the appointment of Haj Amin al-Husseini to the position of Mufti, stop using him as an excuse for mistreating the Palestinians. And that is what you are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 09:43 PM

Let me see if I understand you---you are not slanderous in citing my "co-religionists"---who I have nothing to do with and care not a whit about.   You still say I beliee in punishing Palestinans for things done by their brethren. I do not know where you come up with that---except in your own rather small and narrow thing you call a mind.


Let me see--are you Christian? SHould I hold you responsible for the Inquisition--or other such horrors? I don't. You are too young to be a buddy of Torquimada. But, bet you would have like him.

Frankly---discourse with you, once you enter a topic, is fruitless---who said that a closed mind is like a cellar made of wood with closed doors that only attracts termites?   Probably me.   

Best to get an exterminator so that---as the old musical says---lets the sun shine in

Now---feel free to fly to the Middle East and pronounce your views in the most militant and narrow ways you know---one side will surely love you. Perhaps that is what you need---there must be a song about "Militant Love"---


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:12 PM

There really is a lot to be said in favour of trying to carry on an argument without trying to be offensive to the person we are arguing with. Or responding in kind, if we feel we've been offended.

"You are too young to be a buddy of Torquimada. But, bet you would have like him. Clearly the aim is to provoke Carol into lashing back in the same way, which would then entitle Bill H to see it as confirming how unreasonable she was being. And no doubt he'd point to soemthing she said which he took as a reason to be provoked...

This way of carrying on a discussion is a kind of parody of the way in which this conflict in Israel/Palestine has been fought out in real life, but with insults instead of atrocities as the coinage.

School playground stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:00 PM

Let me see if I understand you---you are not slanderous in citing my "co-religionists"---who I have nothing to do with and care not a whit about.

No... you do not understand me. I did not cite your "co-religionists". I cited ONE man who belongs to a group with whom you have identified yourself many times here in the Mudcat. And I did so, specifically for the purpose of showing you why YOU shouldn't hold all members of any group responsible for the behavior of only some members of that group, as you have been consistantly doing in your posts to threads like this one.

The fact that you know other people shouldn't be doing that, but you think it's perfectly ok for you to do it shows what a colossal hypocrite you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:03 PM

And no, I am not a Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:07 PM

Well--Carol---farewell on this thread---you paint people with your brush and then when your bigotry is pointed out to you---and your misquotes to further your one sided and narrow opinions you respond with more falsifications of what is said.

It is fine for a tabloid---just don't join a serious debate with people of any intellect.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:12 PM

Best you listen to Dan Schorr on NPR or perhaps read Rich in the NY Times---their brains seem to function and are open minded.

That wa supposed to be in the last---and final ---note on this subject as long as you are on it.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,A Jew
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:14 PM

Typical Mudcat anti-semitism from some Left-wing perverts.

First bus that Hamas blows up, Israel will simply take Gaza back.

This site is being monitored by the Anti-Defamatation League and Israeli intelligence.

Thankfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:18 PM

So, what you're telling me, Bill H, is that it's perfectly ok for you to be prejudiced and to treat people who belong to different groups than you as less than human, but if someone points out the fact that you are doing it, that makes them a bigot.

That is what I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 08:00 AM

The Hell with it !! 1oo !!!!