BS: security concerns about Norway shooting

Subject: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:09 PM

I am going to start digging into the logistics, distance, timings, resources etc...but for a gunman/woman near a nation's capital..that has just had its government building blown up..be able to take down that many people...raises some concerns in my head. They say it was after the Oslo explosion...and I will presume he was not physically there..but surely it would have immediately been on the radio. Surely police would have been on highest alert.If they did not carry weapons, but they must have them cached somewhere??I would think...they would be told to fetch their weapons in some sort of order. Everyone would be listening to the radio. The minute the first shot rang out and the first staffer or kid was able to run to the woods the police would have been called. If the news of the Oslo shooting was on the radio already, and you were in a camp nearby, would you not gather the campers, account for them, ..if for no other reason than some would have relatives...maybe it all happened almost simultaneously and I will be checking on that.

OK..so you have a shooting, you have multiple phone calls...you have to get police out there. Of course theywill be focused on Oslo..but you still have citizens..parents..military..were there calls on the radio to get some boats close to the island? They said their swat helicopter was not on standby. It could be in for repairs or it could be on its way to the capital..who knows. There are other helicopters in Oslo..there was one taking photos of the shooting..can you not ask it to drop some swat people off...

There must have been boats on the island? Or was there a bridge? Could some staff not have circled around and brought a boat to the other side? It was close enough that some swam across. What was camp security like? Were they aware of the explosion in Oslo? What was the police force on or near the island? There have got to be some sort of explanations for why a gunman shot for one and a half hours and was not taken down. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:13 PM

Unlike many of us in Europe, Norway's emergency services are expertly primed to deal with serious snow in winter. However their emergency services are possibly less expertly primed to deal with gun-toting extremists. One may but ponder "why?"

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:29 PM

It could be done. A timer to detonate the car or truck bomb (even a cell phone!), a run to the camp with enough ammunition for a small war, an "assault weapon" that will fire both full- and semi- automatic (and plenty of practice with it), and a lunatic desire would be all that was needed. The killer would be familiar with the local police set-up as well, and would rightly expect that the bomb would be occupying the police while he did the rest of his filthy work. The fact that a helicopter wasn't readily available is not surprising; our local police would have a hard time rounding one up in a hurry. Because this is a public forum and I don't want to give people more ideas than they already have I won't discuss what I see as the criminal's failures.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:46 PM

I am not even thinking about the criminal's failures. I am thinking about security failures, especially after a huge explosion...that children were apparently just wandering around and were told by gunman to come to him..he was dressed as a police officer but where were staff after not just a happy MidSummer day but after a huge explosion. Of course assmebling everyone together would have its security risks...but they should not have been just wandering around. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Megan L
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:48 PM

the Buzzards circle

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:38 PM

'..but they should not have been just wandering around.'

Not sure what you would have people do, round up everybody in the country, just in case?

There had been an explosion in Oslo, 50 km away. It was completely unclear what had happened, surely you have seen the confusion in the news reports during the first few hours. By all accounts people on the island had gathered in groups, discussing the news of the explosion. Who could have foreseen the man dressed as a policeman was going to gun them down. It was the most unlikeliest of scenarios. One cannot be prepared for something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM

The police were on the spot disarming the man within 50 minutes of being alerted. Considering they were dealing with a massive crisis in Central Oslo, and the camp was way out in the country, that compares pretty well to how the British police responded to say, the Cumbria shooting spree.

Sometimes when people talk about how "it's easy with hindsight" what they really are trying to excuse is a lack of foresight. Not in this case, I feel. Nobody could have anticipated it.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:17 PM

I would not have expected teens to be left without staff members following such a major explosion so near to the area..and I would have expected policies that say anyone who comes here, including police, checks in with staff..that would be normal procedure if there were no immediate danger..

This was a camping area...there were some boats because some boats went to rescue the swimmers...boats run by volunteers, and I personally would have volunteered..with local police, armed hopefully with more than faith in the goodness of man/womankind, could have saved quite a few I would think.

And anyone running any sort of event should have some plans in place. There are crazy people everywhere, and drug lords, and gangs, and religious fanatics and people who hear voices and terrorists...and if this is what you mean by being a buzzard I am proud to be one. The other option is to just let people die. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM

and furthermore..50 minutes..he killed about one per minute.

Cut 10 minutes off response time and 10 people are saved. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:13 PM

major explosion so near to the area

As was previously explained, the explosion was not "near the area".

I would not have expected teens to be left without staff members

They were not 'left without staff members'.

and I personally would have volunteered

Its a crying shame- damn near a crime- that you weren't there to handle things and make everything OK.

Perhaps you should get on a plane now - there's probably something in Norway needs whipping into shape, and only you can do it!

There are crazy people everywhere, and drug lords, and gangs, and religious fanatics and people who hear voices and terrorists...

HOLY SHIT! It just ain't safe out there!!! RUN! RUN!!

Cut 10 minutes off response time and 10 people are saved

You bet, mg- and if wishes were horses, beggars would ride, too.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:25 PM

One thing..there is always an overconfidence in the prospect of rescue by helicopter. There are never enough helicopters, pilots. They can not fly in some weather. There are not helicopters just roving the skies waiting to rescue us. If you are surrounded by water, as the Japan situation was, as this situation was, as Katrina was..you are going to have to use boats. Surely the camp would have had recreational boats if it was an island only reachable by boat..and I don't know if it was or if there was a bridge or moat or whatever..and surely they would have had a plan in case campers got sick or injured..oh..probably a helicopter..I am telling you..you have to have plans that do not include helicopters. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: andrew e
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:34 PM

As in most "terrorist" attacks, we will probably never know what really happened, and who was behind them.
Certainly can't rely on the mainstream media to tell us.
Ever wondered where they get their info from?

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:44 PM

As I understand it:
The bomb was in a car and on a timer. By the time it went off, the bomber was well on his way to the camp ground where he presented himself as a police officer instructing all in security measures re: the Prime Minister's (IS that his title) visit.
Perfect sense even if they had heard of the bombing. All gathered round and he opened fire. Panic. Staff as well as children were slaughtered.
Well planned, mg.
Like it or not, no one was at fault.
Sometimes, shit happens.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: skarpi
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:48 PM

I wonder , is he number 1 of many more to come in Europe in the coming days and weeks ? are there others with him in other Countrys ? t

I just don´t think he was acting alone ...there is a bad smell of this .

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:08 PM

A prime minister who just barely escaped a massive explosion is probably not going to go to a children's camp shortly thereafter, scheduled or not. There are other reasons that a fake police officer could have used that would be believable...as in I am here to protect you after this terrible explosion. I have read there was 2 hours in between..should be confirmed. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:15 PM

I don't follow mg's reasoning. Let's say that downtown Seattle suffered a bomb attack.

Setting the scenario:

It is high summer. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of campers out there. Everyone from Girl Scout camps to family outings to Outward Bound exercises and many more. They can be 10 miles from Seattle or they can be 100 miles away. Heck, they could even be 3,000 miles away and still be in the same country. Where does one draw the line?

I agree that disaster plans should be in place; there are flash floods out there, lightning storms, bear attacks, broken legs and backs, flat tires, cases of homesickness... But only in this country do we feel that we need to include the hazards of a potential attack by a human being. And even we don't prepare for the same human being presenting himself as a figure of authority.

Norway, given its history of non-aggression, has about as much reason to expect such an event as a group of Amish on an outing having to worry about one of its people running amok.

The best - meaning safest - of all worlds is one in which we would have precious little freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:28 PM

If you are in charge of security planning for a country, or a big insituttion like a hospital or whatever..surely you realize that no place is truly safe now. There are drug addicts..there are open borders..way more than when each country maintained border security..there are at least in US many people who formerly would have been hospitalized or put in secure situations for their protection and that of society..surely anyone in a security situation would realize that every country is vulnerable.

Especially if your government headquarters just got blown up perhaps you would put yourself in higher alert mode. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,.just me
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:50 PM

You will not find "this" in the "mainstream news."
Clones - remove if offensive - but please don't "Out Me."

The assasin's timing was precise. It was more than Norway he wanted to terrorize.

A major - world inclusive - youth event (non-political or religous) - was previously canceled - when Iran - well "had issues."

A major - perhaps the world's largest youth event ever (non-political or religous but with an affirm commitment to God and Country) was scheduled, for this week, in the neighboring country.

Every parent, of every participant (males and females, Budhist, Islam, Christian, Morman) participating from the UK to Kenya, from the USA to India ... must have doubts and fears about the week ahead.

Tears flow freely.

Sincerely,
JustMe

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: ranger1
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:53 PM

mg, I think you don't know enough about the country or the events to be second-guessing the police and their response time. Time to just let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 09:03 PM

This incident, from my local radio station, bears (no pun intended_ out my thesis. It is not possible to be ever safe.

Teens mauled by bear in Alaska
RACHEL D'ORO,Associated Press Writer

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Students participating in a survival skills course in Alaska have been mauled by a bear, and two have suffered life-threatening injuries.

Alaska State Troopers say the students were in a group of seven students participating in a 30-day backcountry course by the National Outdoor Leadership School when the attack occurred Saturday night near Chulitna, about 120 miles north of Anchorage. They were rescued early Sunday.

NOLS spokesman Bruce Palmer says another group of seven students and three instructors is waiting about six miles away for a helicopter hired by the Lander, Wyo.-based organization.

Palmer says 17-year-old Joshua Berg of New City, N.Y., and 17-year-old Samuel Gottsegen of Denver were critically injured with bear bite wounds. They are being treated at an Anchorage hospital.

Palmer says two others also were injured.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:35 PM

No. I see it as our duty as world citizens to analyze these situations and see what was wrong and what was right in order to lessen future catasrophes.

I don't know what was on the radio but I can't figure out why they would not put out a radio plea for boats to be brought to a certain dock..a summer's day on a lake near campgrounds..there were boats around. And maybe there were fears that other terrorists or gunmen/women would shoot the boat bringers..which is a possibility..but many people would understand that and bring their boats, jetskis anyway. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:04 AM

http://www.rnw.nl/international-justice/bulletin/norway-suspect-faces-court-police-defend-arrest-delay-1

This says there were police on the island. Usually? Came because they were called? They put in a call to Oslo and then 8 minutes later, an unexplained delay, asked officially for help. Granted..the emergency forces were probably involved in the Oslo explosion..but those 8 minutes meant 8 lives lost..or perhaps 12 as they are now saying there was an hour delay rather than 1.5 hours.

Also somewhere it said that there was a flotilla of boats picking up the swimmers and the police had expected to maybe be able to use some of those boats.

I can't figure out why they could not commandeer the helicopter that was taking pictures or enough boats. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:37 AM

Here is one hero. There were more boats rescuing kids..it sounds like he went all the way to the island. Some pulled out kids that were swimming.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/07/24/exp.seg.holmes.norway.rescuer.cnn?&hpt=hp_c2

The kids at the camp called their 911 equivalent and were told not to call unless it was about the Oslo bombing...that does not make sense..if they were safe to speak couldn't they scream they are shooting as us here? And these kids all have thumbs worn out from texting..could they not text to the police? Their parents? I am sure they did but there are reports that the police responded to a call from the campground across from the camp..who heard shots for 30 minutes. Now, what sounds like gunfire on a camp where there are presumably no cars? Fireworks maybe..or guns...especially after their government building has exploded. 30 minutes..I won't do the math this time. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:58 AM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018280/Why-did-police-long-reach-island-massacre.html

There are some interesting observations here. One spokesman says remember we had to notify the personnel, they had to put on their protective gear and they had to arm themselves. As someone points out in the comments section, their government had just blown up...wouldn't they have protective gear on? And be armed? If not..could they not grab and go and be putting on some stuff in the car or van or whatever?

They overloaded the boat they had. Norwegians surely know their boats..and this was not a huge storm on open seas..it was a few hundred yards across a lake I think. Kids swam to safety.

And they ride for 28 minutes, once dressed and armed and arrive on the dock. Then they start to commandeer the boats. Do they not have cell phones in Norway? Communication with local police who surely would have rounded up some boats for them?   I would understand if this were a very poor country, but this is one of the most prosperous countries in the world..their special forces don't have a few zodiacs? They said their helicopter, which was somehow out of service, was for observation and not for transporting crew. Even two or three people? That is all that might have been necessary.

Once again..there is no time for delay in these situations. Every minute that goes by you know what happens. Every minute. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:37 AM

"I agree that disaster plans should be in place; there are flash floods out there, lightning storms, bear attacks, broken legs and backs, flat tires, cases of homesickness... But only in this country do we feel that we need to include the hazards of a potential attack by a human being. And even we don't prepare for the same human being presenting himself as a figure of authority.
Norway, given its history of non-aggression, has about as much reason to expect such an event as a group of Amish on an outing having to worry about one of its people running amok."

Quite so. I also agree with SINSULL's evaluation above. It was a well planned attack.
I really hope this man's actions neither indicates nor inspires a wave of right-wing "christian" fanatic terrorism in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:53 AM

A massive bomb goes off right in the heart of the capital city and immediately the call goes out for assistance from all emergency services and you have all your police, all your paramedics and all doctors on call heading towards that situation at speed.

You have nobody left to respond to anything else until that situation is assessed and under control.

You don't have the slightest clue as to how many people you will need, so you pull them all in.

To turn around even a small section of that response and send them in another direction is not the work of minutes. They are not travelling in a body, but arriving piecemeal, which means a great deal of work finding out who is where, and redirecting those nearest.

The phone lines will be jammed solid with people trying to check on relatives in the bombed area.

In other words, TOTAL CHAOS!

There is one person responsible for all those deaths, and looking for somebody else to blame, while natural, is extremely unfair.

The police and authorities did their best, IMO, in dealing with a situation which was unforseeable, and therefore unforseen.

Exactly as in the July 7th London bombings, lessons will be learned and they will do better if it happens again.

Nothing succeeds like 20/20 hindsight, especially when it is used to apportion responsibility unfairly.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 08:17 AM

I am sure that Norway will institute armed security at politically sensitive "targets" I am sure that they will more closely monitor the sale of large quantities of "weapons grade" fertilizer.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 08:35 AM

It would appear that one of the first people who was killed by the fake policeman at the camp was the security guard who came to see him as he landed.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:46 AM

There are about a billion ways of compromising security in this world. All it takes is ONE person who decides to do something most people would never even imagine doing, and he plans it well and carries it out with determination.

Period.

There is no way of preventing or preparing for any and all such violent acts, and I see no reason to be taking Norwegians to task for the fact that one crazy man there did something virtually no one could have foreseen.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:49 AM

I can't understand why mg doesn't offer her services to the Norwegian government immediately. I'm sure they'd be happy to fly such an acknowledged expert as herself to Oslo at no charge.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:55 AM

Well, yes, but there's still the massive tsunami recovery effort in Japan to clear up, you see. After that, maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:29 AM

Turns out one of those shot was an off-duty policeman working as a security guard.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:21 AM

If I heard about a bomb going off in the capital, I would feel relieved to know my kids were 'safe' on an island a long way from there.

NO ONE can anticipate such a monstrous attack.

There WILL be occasional psychopaths who get the idea that they can provoke political action with gratuitous violence.

There is NO WAY to guard against really strange, random events like that.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: skarpi
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:56 AM

I am listing to our radio , and the talk is that we could have a copy/paste terrorist elsewhere , like here in Reykjavík ..its very easy
in Iceland to get things to make a big bomb and the police does not have money to do anything , so we are weak ..

Brevik said there 322 left wings people here in Iceland and they all on his dead list .

question is , is he alone ? I don´t think so.There is a bad smell of this .

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:58 AM

Remember that before 9/11/2001 it was policy to appease high jackers and let them into cockpits. The really nasty tricks only work once.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:07 PM

From what I have read local police were very nearby, and the swat team does not sound like it was taken to the capital, as a police chief was talking about needing them to be dressed and armed and even notified.

And yes, every place in the world has to think of things like this. There is no utopia, and once one is created, there are teams of people, deranged or politically committed or both, looking for soft spots. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:41 PM

every place in the world has to think of things like this

No it does NOT, and any country that prepared itself adequately to stop an eventuality like this would be a paranoid totalitarian shithole.

That is, it would be the kind of country Breivik was fighting for, and the kind of country you and the authoritarian right want to turn the US into.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 02:40 PM

"any country that prepared itself adequately to stop an eventuality like this would be a paranoid totalitarian shithole."

Yeppers - thoughts echoed (albeit less strongly) by Ebbie above.

Even though Northern European countries like Norway may be going through some troubles, they yet remain the epitome of proper democracy, progressive liberal thought and socially conscientious policy in the Western world.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 02:59 PM

There has been speculation that the Oslo bomb was set off for the very purpose of diverting emergency services from the slaughter planned for the summer camp.
see for instance:
http://falkvinge.net/2011/07/23/who-kills-80-teenagers-one-by-one/

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 03:13 PM

Precisely Mick!

A no brainer, if you want sufficient time for that kind of body count.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:55 PM

We have not heard about the ferry captain. Was he/she involved in the rescue? If not, why not?

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/multiple-security-failures-in-norway-59533.html

Says the leader of the camp was on ferry with madman. Then she went to the main lodge or whatever, met with unarmed (God save us) security/policeman. They were suspicious. I have read elsewhere that unarmed policeman was suspicious and questionned madman but this is the first I have heard of camp director. Above story says madman followed them to the lodge and shot them. I have read other stories..we won't know for ages exactly what happened.

One real tragedy here is their equivalent of 911 system. They tried calling and were told not to call unless it was related to Oslo explosion...well, I would say it was. There was, as far as I can see, between 5:10 and 5:25 before police were notified..did they receive calls from the victims? How were calls routed? Of course the system would have been overwhelmed..but why would they be calling OSlo when there were local police nearby?

Oh the helicopter situation is sad. One story said the pilot was on vacation. Another said helicopter was available 5 out of 7 days. Several have said the helicopter was for observation only and not able to transport the team..then why are they talking about not being able to use the helicoptor because it was not available if they could not use it in the first place. Something just does not make sense.

If there is a ferry, and police need to get to the island..can they not secure the ferry? Unless the ferry is out in the middle of the lake picking up the possibly dying children.

Some things do not make sense. And yes, I would rather light a virtual candle somewhere and consider my job done but I think every citizen at least of every free country has to ask these questions and find out some answers and apply them to their own place. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:27 PM

It turns out that the security person/policeman who was shot is the stepbrother of the crown princess and I believe his son was there and he shoved him out of the way. There was more information about the ferry ride..the report I read and now can not pull up said that the woman who was shot was a museum worker and had deep suspicions after questioning him on the boat. She left the ferry and contacted the real policeman who somehow then shot them both. If only she had been able to talk to the ferry captain and have him/her on guard, or ready to call police or something. But she was a true heroine..as was the real policeman. As were the citizens who put their boats in the water. And of course the swat team. mg

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 02:45 AM

"She left the ferry and contacted the real policeman who somehow then shot them both."

I"m having trouble following the story.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:54 AM

Yay, Ebbie; without discounting the seriousness of the matter, it is sounding on this thread more & more like one of those novels by such as Le Carré which always lose me & leave my poor little brain reeling about ¼-way thru! Could we keep all these speculations a bit less complex, please?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:14 AM

'Then she went to the main lodge or whatever, met with unarmed (God save us) security/policeman.'

It may come as a surprise but it wouldn't occur to anyone in Europe that security people (if there are any to begin with) in youth camps would be anything else but unarmed.   

I, for one, would certainly never consider to send any child of mine to a camp that entertained the thought of having armed guards around children.

Again, the situation as it occurred on Utøya was so outside of the realm of what can be expected there is really no way to be prepared for it without turning a country into a police state.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:36 AM

To answer the points raised in Mary's opening post:

1: "I am going to start digging into the logistics, distance, timings, resources etc...but for a gunman/woman near a nation's capital..that has just had its government building blown up..be able to take down that many people...raises some concerns in my head."

You should have done that before breaking into print. At least looked at the location of the incidents on a map.

2: "They say it was after the Oslo explosion...and I will presume he was not physically there..but surely it would have immediately been on the radio."

It was.......He wasn't (at the site of the bomb).......Reports of the explosion were broadcast immediately. At this time (15:26hrs) they had no idea what had caused the explosion only that it had happened, it was massive and it was in the centre of the Government Office area of Oslo.

3: "Surely police would have been on highest alert."

WHY? At this time (15:26hrs) they had no idea what had caused the explosion only that it had happened, it was massive and it was in the centre of the Government Office area of Oslo. They responded to the explosion rapidly as did all emergency services. It was not until some time after that they knew it was a bomb, their first priority was to secure the area in order that those injured could be helped.

4: "If they did not carry weapons, but they must have them cached somewhere??I would think...they would be told to fetch their weapons in some sort of order."

ALL policemen in Norway are armed (9mm side arms & H&K MP-5)


5: "Everyone would be listening to the radio."

Yes no doubt they were. Nationally broadcast were two separate instructions:

Initially after the bomb went off in Oslo people were told to not use their mobile phones as it would overwhelm the network and hinder the work of the emergency services and hospitals who were frantically calling in people.

The second instruction came after people became aware of what was happening on the Island of Utøya that instruction was - Do Not Call people on the island they are trying to hide from the gunman and the ring tone will give away their positions (Obviously the youngsters from the island had called the police/home - remember on the face of it it was a policemen shooting at them - to call for help, This would have taken time)

6: "The minute the first shot rang out and the first staffer or kid was able to run to the woods the police would have been called."

As far as his victims were concerned it was a "policeman" doing the shooting, but I would have thought that in the circumstances (All attending the rally having been called together, then the shooting started) As soon as the first shot rang out, don't know about you Mary but I would be running like hell for cover - Not making bloody phone calls - That would come after I had outpaced my attacker and found a place to hide. But yes we can assume that calls were made, BUT not the instant the shooting started (first call to police received at 17:27hrs).

7: "If the news of the Oslo shooting was on the radio already, and you were in a camp nearby, would you not gather the campers, account for them, ..if for no other reason than some would have relatives...maybe it all happened almost simultaneously and I will be checking on that."


There was NO SHOOTING in Oslo - In Oslo a very large home made bomb had just gone off....You are in a camp on an island 60 kilometers away. As the Camp was a "political" event and Government Offices had just been destroyed by an explosion - no mention of a bomb yet - I dare say that people were gathered round attempting to find out what might have happened. A former Arbeiderpartiet Prime Minister of Norway Gro Harlem Bruntland has just left the Camp after having addressed the rally (She apparently was the gunman's real target on the Island) The next thing you know is that a "police officer" has arrived to brief everybody on the situation. He has presented himself to the officials on the shore and has been cleared to go over to the Island.


8: "OK..so you have a shooting, you have multiple phone calls...you have to get police out there. Of course theywill be focused on Oslo..but you still have citizens..parents..military..were there calls on the radio to get some boats close to the island? They said their swat helicopter was not on standby. It could be in for repairs or it could be on its way to the capital..who knows. There are other helicopters in Oslo..there was one taking photos of the shooting..can you not ask it to drop some swat people off..."


Of course they are focused on Oslo - 60 kilometers away, the nearest police presence would be in the small town of Hønefoss 30 kilometers away - it is Friday after work in the middle of the national holiday period I dare say that neither police, emergency services or hospitals were over-manned when all this kicked off. What boats? We know one tourist to the area recognised immediately the sound of automatic gunfire whilst listening to the radio and put two-and-two together and took his boat over to the island - he subsequently rescued about 30 of the youngsters - but this is not a heavily populated part of the country and it was in the middle of the holiday season and the weather was atrocious. SWAT Teams are not as common in Europe as they appear to be in the USA, neither is the automatic response to an incident to pour in masses of fire-power. As soon as it became evident what was happening on the Island both armed police (i.e. more heavily armed and protected than normal plus special forces were sent to the island) "Other helicopters taking photos of the shooting" Where did you get that from??? Certainly not on Norwegian Television - Ever heard of library footage?? Your helicopter is going to land most likely under fire on a heavily wooded island where Mary??


9: "There must have been boats on the island?"

Possibly, I dare say that there were - how do you get to them? There is only one landing jetty where those boats are secured and there is a man armed with an automatic rifle between you and the jetty, on which he has placed explosives to ambush any rescue party.

10: "Or was there a bridge?"

No bridge only a single landing stage. Controlled access to the island.

11: "Could some staff not have circled around and brought a boat to the other side?"

How would they have done that? Unlikely that "staff" would carry keys to boat engines around with them purely on spec that they might need them. The other side of the island is all cliff.

12: "It was close enough that some swam across."

Closest point from Island to shore is 500 metres in ice cold fresh water with strong currents - to many, hitting the water would not be an option.

13: "What was camp security like?"

Private/Volunteer and in Norway they would be unarmed, but there again why should they be, access to the Island was controlled on the shore and the gathering is an assembly of like-minded young people - trouble would the last thing you would expect to have to deal with. The current Crown Princess's step-brother, a policeman on vacation, was a member of the unarmed security detail on the Island and he was killed trying to tackle the gunman.

14: "Were they aware of the explosion in Oslo?"

Undoubtedly aware of an explosion, they might even by this stage have known it was a bomb

15: "What was the police force on or near the island?"

At least one off-duty policeman on the island in civilian clothes whose son was attending the rally, nearest police station would be in Hønefoss a small town about 30-40km away. The island is private property and is non residential.

16: "There have got to be some sort of explanations for why a gunman shot for one and a half hours and was not taken down."

The Island is small owned by the Worker's Youth League so no permanent residents. The gunman set his bomb in Oslo (mechanical timer most likely) walked to where he had parked his second vehicle (Silver coloured van) and drove to the landing stage on the shore of the lake - So park bomb, set timer, it's in the middle of the city so the time he parked to the time it went off could not be long, other wise the van containing the bomb may be towed. Bomb went off 15:26 say Breivik left Oslo at 15:00hrs it would take him about 20 minutes from Oslo to Sandvika, then about 45 minutes to the landing stage. He was delayed because he missed his main target on the Island. It is about 16:10hrs when he gets to the landing stage he has to change inside the van and arrive at the control point to get access to the Island so by the time he is on the Island it would be around 16:45hrs. He had to walk up to the camp site and get the youngsters assembled before he could start shooting:

"At 17:27 the local police district learned about the shooting, and two minutes later the police in Oslo were informed. By 17:38, the Norwegian central anti-terrorist unit Beredskapstroppen was dispatched to Utøya from their headquarters in Oslo. However special forces in Oslo did not have an operative helicopter available that could take them straight to the island. The only helicopter available to the Oslo-based unit was a military one parked 60 km south of the capital at Moss Airport in Rygge, and thus the special unit had to reach the location by cars. They reached the ferry crossing at 18:09, but had to wait a few minutes for a boat to take them across. They reached Utøya at 18:25. Within two minutes of police arriving the gunman surrendered."

Taking ALL factors into account the response time was fast.

Had this rally been held anywhere in rural Norway actually on the mainland or on a larger inhabited island I would have given the "gunman" about 15 maybe 20 minutes before someone would have shot him:

- Norway has a large number of registered hunters whose hunt Elg (Moose) and Red Deer, each year they have to pass a shooting test before they can hunt.

- Norway has conscription to its armed forces so there are lots of people who know how to handle guns and shoot.

- Norway has a national "Home Guard" who have to keep their weapons and ammunition at home.

No shortage of guns, no shortage of people who know how to use them - BUT not in the Utøya area.

This monster planned this attack very carefully. A "singleton" impossible to predict, hard if not impossible to detect as there will be no security leak from "his" side.

Possible recommended changes - Facebook entries - checked before they put out on the site - Oh wait a minute that would contravene US freedom of speech - can't have that now can we.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:43 AM

Security guards are never allowed arms in UK.
Only specialist police and military.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:54 AM

20/20 Hindsight's a wonderful thing. Really helpful to the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 08:33 AM

With each post, mg gets a little more inarticulate, confused & bizzare. Perhaps she's off her meds?

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:38 AM

I got through most of the thread before realising that mg is not a person but an elaborate parody.