BS: Gun Sales Are Up

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:18 AM

The "no waiting period" refers to the "instant check" done by the FBI. Takes only a few minutes (as I know). The gun shop owner can and must refuse to sell if the person seems angry and ready to use the weapon as soon as s/he walks out the door.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:34 AM

Yes, in Oregon they do all of the background checking that they'd do any place else in the country. Some states have a waiting period. I think the purpose of that is, if you have a domestic dispute, for instance, one party or the other can't go out and buy a gun and then come back and shoot the other party. Given the length of time the customer has to stand around in the store while all of the background checks are completed, I would think there would be little chance of something like that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:21 PM

In Canuckistan, ya gotta have a POL or a PAL. The PAL, Possession and Aquisition License requires passing the Canada Firearms Safety Course Test and submitting a lengthy application (which MUST be "signed off" by the spouse) after which a thorough background check takes place. A picture ID card with code and with magnetic strip is then issued and is valid for five years.

The POL, Possession Only, was to cover persons who owned guns prior to the new laws brought in back in the 80s (think it was the 80s?). They did not have to take the course. However, very few people, if ANY, who legally own guns in Canada are ignorant of proper handling, safety and storage.

Now, the criminals, on the other hand....

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 02:10 PM

That's a good point, gnu. America could learn from the Canadian example. But there is always the problem of what to do about those individuals who consistantly operate outside of the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 06:07 PM

It's only my opinion, but if you bring a weapon to a crime your sentence should automatically go up by at least 5 years, no parole for it. If you use a weapon during a crime, add 10 years. If someone dies during a crime you committed while in possession of a weapon, such possession should be prima facie evidence of planned intent and you go up for murder one (if you didn't intend to use it, why did you bring it?). And I specifically use the word "weapon" and not "gun".

The media must also take some blame for glorifying weapons as ends in themselves and not as the tools they are. Perhaps if the US (and other countries) taught children that firearms are tools for grownups and not toys for children (and grownups were required to learn about them)...well, consider Switzerland....

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,Steve in Idaho
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:16 PM

[b[Regardless of his motive, the story is true. These folks know their days are numbered so they are stocking up. These are the same folks that sit in tar papered shacks reading up on how they can form their own militias.   The nut jobs always see that they won't be able to get away with their crap any longer.[b/]

So Ron Olesko - were you just born ignorant or did you work at it? Against folks having the right to defend themselves?

And exactly what "crap" are you talking about?

I certainly don't get what you think you are achieving by taking weapons away from the law abiding folks in America. And as far as it being an agenda item - I believe it is. Our VP Elect wrote the last major firearms bill. And it was pretty stupid also, and the American public agreed when they allowed it to sunset under Clinton's administration. Pres elect Obama agrees with him. So I believe that when a right guaranteed by the founding fathers is in jeapardy once should think to the future. And it is a right. The Supreme Court even agreed.

The only statistic for guns being removed from peoples hands has always guaranteed a rise in crime. As one of my dear friends, a police officer, says, "When seconds count the police are just minutes away."

You have a right to think what you want. But if you believe for even one second I live in a tarpaper shack and am ignorant - well - you certainly are clueless. So I'd encourage you take a look at law, history, and reality before you make a statement on my ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:19 PM

Gee, Steve -- I'm in Pocatello. Where are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:32 PM

Has anyone here considered that gun sales might be up because the economy is in the dumps?

In rural areas, such as this is, a gun behind the door can mean meat on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: pdq
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:44 PM

Does anyone have actual facts about who is buying the guns and where?

I suspect that Black and Hispanic folks who live in gang-prone areas do not want to see their rights of self-defence reduced.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:14 AM

Rap.... I attended all the sessions... and I suggested that "armed robbery" carry a minimum 10 year sentence (our sentences work much differently, with parole possile after 1/3 and mandatory after 2/3 under certain conditions). The federal minister of justice scoffed at such suggestions, but he put in place a minimum 2 year sentence for me if someone broke into my house, stole a gun and commited a crime with it. Go figure.

Caveat... as for what is actually on our books, I am going by memory, and therefore, ahhh... I need another cup of tea.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:05 AM

One thing is for absolute certain. More guns = more gun-related deaths.

How many accidental deaths are there where guns are involved?

How many gun suicides are there?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:40 AM

Of course, the same is true of automobiles and mountain climbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 10:47 AM

No gun death is caused by "accident." They are either deliberate or due to carelessness.

My source on this is no less than the National Rifle Association.

Suicide by shooting is more-or-less irrelevant, as someone who TRULY intends to kill themself will find a means to do so. At least in the US, "accidental" gun deaths have been dropping for years.

I leave you to find the statistics, 'cause I'm not at work today.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:55 PM

We have the means to prevent the ignorant and criminals to not acquire weapons legally. So they get them from illegal means. Stealing, robbery, and other sources.

An increase in weapons does not necessarily mean an increase in deaths related to people's use of firearms.

My issue with folks making broad statements about the heritage and intelligence of a particular gun owner, or all of us, is that for 99% it is untrue. And the addition of those adjudicated mentally incompetent just removed another group from owning weapons.

I'm not a member of the NRA. The NRA has made concessions to the gun lobby in the interest of easing up on more restrictive legislative fights.

Bottom line - guns are not the problem any more than cars are responsible for traffic problems. It is the people using them that are the problem. In Idaho one does receive additional hard time for gun related crimes. Even if you threaten and do not have possesion it is inferred that you used a gun.

I am educated, Master's Degree, own my own home, never filed bancruptcy, served my country honorably, and am entitled by the Constitution to own firearms. It is not an issue of "need" - it's an issue of "right". I cannot judge your need or want any more than you can judge my needs or wants. What I can do is be responsible with my guns and teach my children the same.

I was proud to have purchased my grand daughters their first 22 rifles. And helped them learn how to be responsible with them. They were both 5 years old when I started with them in concert with their parents. I can tell you that both those kids are in accelerated school programs and already mini-leaders in the little community they inhabit.

That is what I want. Responsible ownership and use of weapons. And only parents can teach that. It can't be legislated, it can't be ordered, it can only come from responsible people teaching civic-minded responsibility to their kids. Unreasoned fear is not the means. It's why I took Mr. Olesko's statement personally. He's lumped me with the -1% group that really does not need to have arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

I thought this thread was about gun sales and gun laws.

If it's gonna be that old crap about "guns kill people", completely shot to hell in thousands of post on related threads, I am outta here. Have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: pdq
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:27 PM

For those of you who suggest that the Obama-Biden ticket is not "anti-gun", here is another opinion:


 
Sarah Palin and Joe Biden: Worlds Apart
 
Friday, August 29, 2008
 
Even before this week, the difference between Barack Obama and John McCain was clear.  For one, McCain joined more than 300 other members of Congress in signing a "friend of the court" brief, in District of Columbia v. Heller, urging the Supreme Court to rule in favor of the Second Amendment and against D.C.'s handgun ban. 

Obama refused to sign the Heller brief, and supports reinstituting the Clinton gun and magazine ban.  He also supports Ted Kennedy's bill to ban semi-automatic handguns in the guise of "micro-stamping," and supports banning inexpensive handguns as "junk guns." 

But now that each candidate has chosen his running mate, the difference is even clearer than before.  And when it comes to guns, the two prospective vice-presidents are as far apart as the states from which they hail. 

Sen. McCain's running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, is a NRA Life Member and hunter who says, "I support our Constitutional right to bear arms and am a proponent of gun safety programs for Alaska's youth," adding "I have always strongly supported the personal use of fish and game by Alaskans.  I grew up hunting and fishing in Alaska, and I am proud to raise my children with this same uniquely Alaskan heritage." 

NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox says "Governor Palin doesn't just talk about supporting the Second Amendment, it's part of her life, and she did her part to vindicate the Second Amendment for all Americans when Alaska joined 30 other states in signing a legal brief supporting Heller's challenge to the D.C. gun-ban." 

As for Joe Biden, from Delaware, the Brady Campaign sums it up in a straightforward enough fashion, saying, "Senator Biden has been a consistent supporter of the Brady Campaign," and "Senator Biden was a key player in the fight for the federal assault weapons ban that passed in 1994.  He also worked hard for passage of the Brady Law (sic)." 

In fact, Biden introduced an "assault weapons" ban in Congress five years before the Clinton gun and magazine ban was imposed.  In 1989, Biden's Senate Bill 1970 proposed to ban the Colt AR-15 and eight similar firearms as "assault weapons," and authorize the Secretary of the Treasury (in reality, BATF) and the Attorney General to recommend to Congress any other firearms, regardless of type, to be banned as "additional assault weapons." 

As lead sponsor of the Senate crime bill to which the Feinstein gun ban amendment was attached, Biden was instrumental in the passage of the 1994 Clinton gun and magazine ban.   Biden reiterated his support for the ban—and, in fact, took credit for authoring it—in response to a question at the CNN/YouTube debate earlier this year (to view the video, please click here). 

Biden voted for the ban on a stand-alone vote in 1993, and voted to extend the ban in 2004 as an amendment to the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act."  He also included a renewal of the ban in his crime bill last year, along with gun show restrictions. 

Currently, Biden's S. 2237 proposes to renew the Clinton ban on roughly 200 makes and models of semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, and handguns on the basis of things like the shape of their grips, and on ammunition magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, regardless of the kind of firearm in which they are used. 

As if that's not enough, Biden voted against the law that prohibits lawsuits designed to bankrupt law-abiding firearm manufacturers and dealers.  He also refused to sign the Congressional brief in Heller, and voted to confirm only one of the five justices who ruled in favor of the Second Amendment in Heller, yet he voted to confirm all four justices who voted against the Second Amendment in that case. 

To put it simply, Gov. Sarah Palin would be one of the most pro-gun vice-presidents in American history, and Joe Biden would definitely be the most anti-gun.

 

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM

"'No gun death is caused by "accident."'"


                So this horny guy is running around in the woods, and a hunter sees him, thinks he's a elk, and shoots him. Wouldn't that be an accident?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:43 PM

Someone claimed that no one's death (and presumably injury) was caused by accident. They were all either on purpose or caused by carelessness.

What do you think an accident is? Usually an event which could, with care, have been prevented--hence, caused by carelessness. Therefore that kind of claim is either sophomoric or disingenuous.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:07 PM

Heheheheee... just figured I'd check back to see... yup... I was right.

Horny guy running around in the woods? Hahahaha. That is fuckin priceless... hehehehee.

Dave... carelessness? Yeah. That's why gun owners advocate gun safety. That's why we don't want assholes and criminals to have guns. That is why we need proper gun laws.

This ain't rocket science.

Okay, I'll leave now... until I am needed again...

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: pdq
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:23 PM

About "the horny guy running around in the woods", his wife said "please not tonight, deer".

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:57 PM

do guns cost a lot in America?

as much as medium price guitars guitars (like yamaha), or as expensive as colour plasma tvs?

very scary items, I shouldn't care to have one around the house. My record with gadgets is not good. Once, I had the microwave cooker turn on me.

In England, farmers have guns - and drug dealers and thst's about it.

Some people used to have handguns for sport, but we had a couple of cases where lunatics went mad with a guns. And everybody just realised that we needed to get guns out of society as much as possible.

We've all heard about your constitution and 'the right to bear arms', but it wouldn't work in England..... too many nutcases out there.

I live in the gun crime capital of England, Nottingham. And I've never seen anyone with a gun. Only very rarely do you see even cops carrying guns. I suppose when you do see a nutter with a gun - its too late!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:06 PM

Comparing guns to guitars is pretty appropriate, wld. Cheap handguns and .22's start a little under $200.00. A real functional hand gun would cost probably $600.00 to $1,000.00

             A bolt-action rifle like most people use for hunting will run from $500.00 to $1,200.00. A decent shotgun might run a little more. And there are hand built double rifles and some hard-to-find fowling pieces that will run into the tens of thousands.

            Ironically, some of the most desirable double rifles and shotguns come from the UK. Holland & Holland, Rigby, Jeffery, and Gibbs are some of the names that come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

I can see it would nice to own some sort of James Bond thing - or one of those long barrelled things that Hugh O'Brian used to have when he was Wyatt Earp on TV.

My friends would stop visiting me, if they knew I had one however - as they know I'm a bit crazy. Out of interest - how much would something like those items cost? You never know - I might go to America one day. Walk around, armed to the teeth. Knowing my luck, I'd end up on death row. The English Folk Song and Dance society would attend the execution, 'We've come to get closure.......' Sing him the Dowie Dens of Yarrow as the needle goes in - he must suffer like his victims!

James Bond had a Beretta and a Walther PPK, as I remember. Are they hard to get?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:16 PM

wee, pop on over here and I'll take you shooting. That's the fastest way to answer your questions. Hell, I'll even fix you up with a guy who has a LICENSE and PERMIT to own and shoot fully automatic weapons.

We'll do this on a shooting range up in the hills. At targets. Before we go and after we're done we'll insure that the guns are unloaded and properly stowed, the ammo is locked away, and all are secured.

By the way Guest Steve -- I have several rifles, handguns, shotguns and a "CCW" that was renewed by the State of Idaho just this past July. I too have a Master's Degree, own my own home (well, me and the bank), pay my bills every month, have never been in jail (but I was once charged with police brutality!), pay my taxes every year, and in general life a boring, untattoed, unpierced, life.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:44 PM

A Walther PPK lists for $573.00 and comes in .380 Auto or .32 Automatic Colt Pistol. A dealer can usually get one for you for 10% to 15% less than that. They are very easy to come by, but you'd have to buy it through a licensed dealer.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 08:52 PM

So are Berettas, Brownings, Colts, Tauruses, Stars, Hi-Points, Steyrs, Freedoms, Kimbers, Smith & Wessons, Rugers, Fabrique Nationales, Lugers, and American Derringers, to name a few. If you want to pay a bit more you can get a Nambu, a Webley, a P-38, or most anything you want.

From a licensed gun dealer.

Costs are from about US $100.00 up to whatever you want to pay.

I wouldn't depend upon anything you could get on the street. Besides, I really wouldn't have any idea about how to go about getting one that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 08:56 PM

Even if you got one off the street, and it was mechanically perfect, there's a good chance it is stolen or was used in a crime. It could make your life really miserable.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:06 PM

The trouble with journalists is that they spend too much time at their desks, downloading stuff. They seem to know less and less about real life with every passing year.

First the television generation grew up, then the Dungeons & Dragons lot, soon the nation will be run by those who were suckled by the Internet. Probably most of them have never fallen off a bicycle.

For example, the writer who quoted the stuff about gun-nuts who fear Obama does not realize this simple fact of life:

Any excuse goes for buying another gun.

For some people, guns are like musical instruments or earrings. The desire to buy another one is always in the back of the mind, ready to be activated.

When it comes to the national statistics, another real-world consideration comes into play. Soon it will be deer season. Deer season is big! Pheasant season is in the fall, too, but that's probably shotguns. So ya gotta get your ammo, not just ammo for the season, but ammo to use when lining in your gun so it shoots straight. Yo've got to get in practice. And if, while buying your ammo, you see a lovely, shiny new gun that you've always wanted (well, at least since you learned of its existence) well...

I am not in favor of guns myself, but at least I know something about the people who use them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:12 PM

Seems like chewing gum sales have also been on the surge (with bulble gum sales about to explode)   
A oincidence? Maybe, but,I suggest not so.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12641

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 01:29 PM

I have special information {an e-mail from a friend of a friend of mine}that Obama plans to ban the sales of high speed eight string mandolins like my Weber Bridger. Normally I'd sell it for about $1400 but since they're going to be banned and will soon become collecters items I'd better raise the price to $3,000.

Let me know if you're interested. Act now before the ban goes into effect.

My guess is that the folks behind these rumors of gun bannings are - the gun makers. It's been good for business hasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 03:51 PM

More likely the distributors, the middlemen.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 04:06 PM

Of course gun sales are up! A black man has been elected President of the US! We all know what that means, huh? Thirty million insecure white men freaking out because it's likely that the guy in the White House has a bigger Johnson than they do! Hell, they've gotta go out and overcompensate in some fashion, and guns are cheaper than Porsches.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 04:58 PM

And lots cheaper (but nowhere near as much fun) as blond floozies.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

Are blond floozie sales up too?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM

Well, well, well...

Seems that The NRA's largest goal is to promote gun ownership/sales so I reckon that they owe Obama a big "Thank You"... Maybe they snuck a few bucks into his campaign??? It'd make sense, wouldn't it???

As fir me??? I ain't gonna go out and buy no new guns... I got all I need: A 22/410 over/under and a 12 guage pump... I killed two deer last year with the 22/410 with open sights... That's all I shot at, too...

Now as fir the bear that's been buggin' me??? A punkin ball outta the 12 guage would send him to that big bees nest in the sky...

But ya'll NRA'ers own Barack a big thankee...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:46 PM

Well Bobert, I'll thank him iffen ya say so, only I cain't afford no new guns right now. How's about you send me four or five hunnert dollars and I'll go buy one? I'll call it "Ol' Bobert" after ya.

(I ain't a member of the NRA, neither. NMLRA -- National Muzzleloading Rifle Association -- yeah, but you haven't heard of many drive-bys done with a flintlock lately, have ya?)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:12 PM

Dan'l Boone pulled one off in 1768.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 08:05 PM

I know a man who shoots a lot of squirrels with his air rifle.

I think he expects me to disapprove (- looks at me defiantly) , but I tend to think if you've got this far through life and shooting squirrels is part of the answer for you.....well that's life in all its strange manifestations.

I rather like squirrels. I like their bushy tails and the way they hold bits of food in their little hands while they eat. I couldn't do it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:11 PM

You would if you were hungry enough, or your family was. Also duckies, bunnies, birdies, snakes, beavers, guinea pigs, ants, maggots, bees, hamsters, termites, rats, and Bambi. You can serve it up with roasted cattail roots and some fiddleheads, with wild berries and wild nuts sweetened with wild honey or maple (or birch) syrup/sugar for dessert.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:18 PM

It looks like assault rifles are the order of the day, so it's probably not deer hunters buying them.



US stocks up on semi-automatic rifles
Track this topic   Print story Post comment Obama menaces right to bear Kalashnikovs

By Lester Haines • Get more from this author

Posted in Government, 10th November 2008 12:06 GMT

Webcast: Delivering The Application Platform

US gun dealers are enjoying a boom in sales of semi-automatic rifles amid fears that Barack Obama may clamp down on selling certain firearms once he's settled into the White House, Reuters reports.

David Greenberg, owner of the splendidly-named Second Amendment Family Gun Shop, in Bisbee, Arizona, told the news agency: "The day after the election, I had many more calls than usual from people looking for semi-automatic rifles. There seems to be a fear they will be banned, and it's fairly likely. Obama and Biden are driven to eliminate firearms from the face of the country."

Tony Aeschliman, spokesman for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, said: "Gun owners are afraid of what Obama is going to do as far as guns. He has a clear record of being against us."

Houston gun store owner Jim Pruett, whose sales "more than tripled on the Saturday before the election to $35,000", chipped in with: "It's always been the liberal or Democratic agenda to restrict gun ownership."

Dealer Steve Sechler of McPherson, Kansas, conformed that "demand at a gun show last weekend jumped by more than 50 percent as buyers rushed to stock up on guns including Kalashnikov and AR-15 rifles". He noted: "Most of the people there were cussing Obama and saying we need home defense."

While Obama "stated his support for the right to bear arms" during his electoral campaign, he and his right hand man Joe Biden are in favour of a ban on assault weapons and "common sense measures" to keep firearms out of the reach of children and criminals.

The Democratic governor of Ohio, Ted Strickland, told a rally last month he'd "spoken directly to Obama about the right to bear arms", and assured: "If you are a sportsman, if you are a gun owner, if you are someone that honors and respects the Second Amendment, you have nothing to fear from Barack Obama."

The National Rifle Association is unsurprisingly having none of it, and has described Obama a "serious threat to Second Amendment liberties". ®

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:20 PM

'It looks like assault rifles are the order of the day, so it's probably not deer hunters buying them.'

Read carefully. Deer season certainly is part of the increased ammunition sales.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:45 AM

NONE of the amendments to the Constitution should be messed with...including freedom of speech, Habeus Corpus, the right to assemble, bear arms, due process of law, innocent until proven guilty, freedom of religion,.etc...NONE of them!!

If he wants to 'change' Washington, fine..but lets leave our form of government alone!..I think a man can be president, as many were before him, and hopefully many can follow, and change corrupt things, in government...the Constitution shouldn't be one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:34 AM

But if all change to the Constitution is wrong, how come the Constitution has Amendments?

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:11 AM

If the Amendments shouldn't be messed with how's come we don't still have Prohibition?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

Okay, no changes to the constitution have been proposed. The flap, quite rightly, is over what exactly the founders *meant* by the second amendment, and forget for a moment what they may or may not have meant, what makes sense (within the wording of course) in 2008 and beyond? Remember, there were no automatic weapons or bazookas in the 18th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:43 PM

Oh, but there were! 18th Century firearms would discharge their entire load of bullets with one squeeze of the trigger!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:23 PM

As for what was not available "back then", whatever it was, the government did not have them either. The words must be taken at fair value.

The whole deal is that The People have the right to defend themselves, from ANY agressor, government included.

I went through a battery of tests before I was accepted by the Royal Canadian Military College. I recall the very last question... "Do you not think that the military, on behalf of the government, could destroy the populace?" My relpy was, "Who would they govern?"

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:53 PM

In other news:

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia told world leaders at a U.N. interfaith meeting on Wednesday that terrorism is the enemy of all religions, calling for a united front to combat it and promote tolerance.

"We state with a unified voice that religions through which Almighty God sought to bring happiness to mankind should not be turned into instruments to cause misery," the king said, opening a U.N. General Assembly meeting initiated by Riyadh.

"Terrorism and criminality are the enemies of every religion and every civilization. They would not have emerged except for the absence of the principle of tolerance."

The two-day forum marks a new direction for Saudi Arabia, the world's leading oil exporter, whose austere "Wahhabi" Islam came in for criticism after the September 11 attacks in 2001 on the United States, Riyadh's main ally and guarantor of security.

....

Throughout history, Abdullah told the forum, conflicts over religious and cultural issues had led to intolerance, "causing devastating wars and bloodshed."

"Human beings were created as equals and partners on this planet," he said. "Either they live together in peace and harmony or they will inevitably be consumed by the flames of misunderstanding, malice and hatred."

U.S. President George W. Bush, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari, Afghan President Hamid Karzai and leaders and diplomats from some 60 other countries are taking part in the gathering.

Israeli President Shimon Peres seized the rare chance of sharing a forum with Abdullah to directly address him, praising his words and a Saudi Middle East peace initiative. Riyadh has no ties with the Jewish state and its officials shun Israelis.

"Your majesty, the king of Saudi Arabia, I was listening to your message. I wish that your voice will become the prevailing voice of the whole region, of all people. It's right, it's needed, it's promising," Peres said.

"The initiative's portrayal of our region's future provides hope to the people and inspires confidence in the nations."

The 2002 initiative promotes the formula of Israel trading occupied Arab land in return for normal relations.

PROMOTING HARMONY

U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon also praised Abdullah, calling the meeting "a truly inspiring initiative for global harmony."

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: kendall
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:44 PM

As far as I know, laws are passed by congress; not the president.

To call Biden anti gun is silly. He is against assault rifles. So am I.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Sales Are Up
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:23 PM

That's only because he wants to reserve the right to shoot his mouth off.