BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?

Subject: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Myles Braithwaite
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:38 PM

Why can't the Arab nations unite and finaly end the suffering of the people of Palestine once and for all against that little plot of American soil which can seem to do whatever it likes against these poor people.

60 years ago they suffered at the hands of evil, something they seem happy enough to subject us to watch on television programmes daily, as the cry on and on about it. Really I agree that was wrong, but they are proving to be no better in their mass murder campaign. They own America we are all aware of that. And they are allowed to hold nukes with fruitcake Bush giving them his blessing.

I pray for the day that Arab nations sort their differences out and remove the vile legal murdering campaign out there once and for all.

Myles.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:45 PM

so I can't put you down for a contribution to AIPAC?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:48 PM

Well, I suppose they can't unite because some seek a peaceful solution, and some seek only war.
I think a peaceful solution and mutual respect is the only way to bring an end to all this killing.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:03 PM

Now the Jews own America? I must write to the Israels and tell them how powerful they have become. I am sure they will be pleased to hear it. I suppose you derived that conclusion from "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" huh? Or was it your reading of "The Hoax of the 20th Century"? Or one of your Stormfront meetings?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:04 PM

77% of Palestine was turned into Jordan, the state of Israel compromises about 7%.   Jordan remains the only Arab nation who welcomed displaced Palestinian Arabs and made them homes as Jordanians. The rest refused to accept them as brother Arabs and forced them into camps. There is no Palestinian language, no Palestinian culture. therein lies the problem. (BTW 860,000 jews were expelled from Arab countries in the 40's Iraq expelled 200,000 and only allowed them to leave with the equivalent of $140 per person everything else went to the state) How we forget our history.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:05 PM

I wonder if Myles is a first-time poster . . . . What are the odds?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:48 PM

Apart from anything else, if they did unite it would be against the Jews, and it would be a bloodbath.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:56 PM

What in the world do you mean they don't have a culture? Are you not aware of their beautiful needlework? Dances, music etc. A whole culture surrounding the cultivation of olive orchards and orange orchards. Some things are fair and right to say and some just are not. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:59 PM

here are some pictures for heavens sake. Thinking a people has no culture is the epitome of something...don't know what..arrogance? Ignorance? No offense. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:36 PM

Islamic Art
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:44 PM

The only thing the Arabs hate more than the Jews are other Arabs.

Count up the number of Arabs killed by other Arabs in the past century and you'll really know that the Jews are not the real problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

They can't unite for the same reasons that the North American Indians couldn't unite against the Whites...or the various tribes in ancient Mexico could not unite together against the Spaniards: Self-interest and old, long-established enmities divide them. Then too, they lack the effective backing (financial and military) of a Superpower, which Israel has. That always helps.

Also, Israel is only one nation.   Like a solo singer, it can't break up with itself, if you know what I mean... ;-) ...but bands which are composed of several individuals almost always end up breaking up, because the people can't agree on different stuff.

A single power, if it is strong enough to meet its enemies on equal terms (or in the case of Israel, better than equal terms), is a far more stable and effective entity than a temporarily patched-together alliance of several powers. It does not suffer from a divided command.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:00 PM

The only real problem in this entire world is greed. The subjugation of the poor by the rich. The denial of education... of equality. No person, in right mind, would call for the beheading of another over a joke, a cartoon, religion, skin colour... education is the only true weapon against evil. However, it is difficult to educate the poor in countries where the rich in power will not allow it.

Given that... how do you educate these "rich"?

Hint... the verb is close to "educate". I daresn't speak it aloud. Matter of fact, I don't even know why I am posting to this thread. Swore these threads off a while back.

Okay, nevermind. Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:25 PM

Ah, yes, how does one "educate" the rich, the greedy, and the powerful? Ask the founders of the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Cuban Revolution, the Mexican Revolution, and numerous other such revolutions...and they will tell you.

Unfortunately, however, the idealistic notions that spawn such revolutions usually give way in fairly short order to the establishment of a new and powerful elite...who once again end up exploiting most of the common people for their own gain.

When Emiliano Zapata went in triumph to Mexico City and tried to run the government there in such a way as to redress grievances with the ordinary people of Mexico, he found his purposes confounded by the corrupted bureaucracy around him at every turn. He eventually gave up in disgust and walked away from the job, returning to his own peasant people in Morelos. Sometime later he was assassinated by government soldiers. They couldn't stand to let a leader that honest keep on living...

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:40 PM

gnu ... right on.

Joe Offer .... right on.

Elimination of greed and mutual understanding is what's needed.

Now gnu ... I'm right behind you on getting out of this thread.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:47 PM

back in for just one more "word" ...

"The only thing the Arabs hate more than the Jews are other Arabs"

actually Guest ... you are very correct on this ... just watch, the whole mideast is going to be awash in civil war ... and it will be very bloody.

..with that ... I'm out for good before the fanatics and wackos come into this thread.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:52 PM

Again and Again it has been observed and is yet to be disproven that you can get these peoples to live together in peace and cooperation after they have tried everything else.

And yeah, Myles' post reminds me of an old Jewish joke where this old man brings a Nazi periodical over to his friend's house and his friend asks him "why do you bring into my house such trash?" to which the old man replies: "The news is much better in this paper. WE control the banks, WE control the media, We control the entertainment industry..."

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:57 PM

Leo Rosten had that in one or two of his many books. That's what I was alluding to. (I believe it was about Czarist Russia.) Did you hear the one about the snipers who were waiting to assassinate Hitler?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:38 PM

Then too, they lack the effective backing (financial and military) of a Superpower, which Israel has.

Actually, from the time of the creation of Israel through all of the wars that Israel fought against the massed Arab armies, the Arab nations did have the financial and military support of a superpower, the USSR.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:04 PM

Never forget that the 'refugees' from Israel were NOT driven out , they elected to leave - There are still a good percentage of Israeli citizens who are 100% Arab / Palestinian !

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM

Peace. No.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:30 PM

Too many Middle East leaders remain in power only by keeping attention focused on the alleged great enemy - Israel.

They can't afford not to have Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: NH Dave
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:27 PM

Giok, you are right it would and has been a blood bath, but for the various Arab militants who could neither work together to invade Israel, nor even fight well with their own forces.

Arab "armies" from the entire 20th centuries have been concerned with mounting a brief campaign, taking their hard knocks, or capturing and then looting the defeated opponent, and leaving for home with their loot. Israel, knowing the only place they can leave for is the Med, are much dedicated to the art of modern warfare, knowing that it is the only thing that stands between themselves and annihilation. This is not just my militaristic ramblings here, it is the experience of T.E. Lawrence, Lawrence of Arabia, from his advisory works with the various Arab tribal groups and their forces, during the desert campaign against the Ottoman Turk Empire, during WWI. Additionally, since each tribal group fights for loot and for imposing the will of the tribe, it is difficult to get them to work together towards a single goal, which may not be the goal of any of their tribes. The film used the capture of a fairly large city by Lawrence's tribal groups, with no plans to treat the wounded, get the electricity or water flowing again, and little regard for discussing the terms of peace, or ways to improve civil affairs within the captured city, to bring it back to an operating whole again.

The rest of the Arab Problem also dates back to just after the end of WWI, where the British and other allied forces arbitrarily divided up the Middle East, formerly the Ottoman Turk Empire into various Arabic states, ruled by the "princes" or Emirs who would make the best deal with the Brits for the oil that had been discovered under their otherwise worthless sands. Short years after this arbitrary division British and American oil exploratory companies had located and drilled wells that were producing enough crude oil to fuel another industrial revolution, which depended on transportation, which had been taken over by over the road trucking; as well as leisure activities that involved driving to camping or other vacation spots to recover from 50 weeks of the daily grind.

Until the various Arab states learn to work together, and form armies that can actually perform their intended mission as opposed to parading prettily for their monarch or ruler, a dedicated Israel with everything to lose, will lick them every time, provided that she can replace the armaments expended in the battle. So far the short time source for these war materials has been the US, but the IDF has also grown their own defense factories and companies skilled in taking another's product and improving it into something essentially Israeli, designed to excel in their type of war, and frequently teach the rest of the world something about waging an efficient war.

Israel was vulnerable to air attacks from their neighbors, so they built air bases with all of the base except the runway underground and safe from bombing or missile attacks. They also proved that "hot turns" simultaneously uploading bombs, rockets, ammo, and fuel to aircraft just back from a mission. This is an extremely dangerous way of doing business, requiring very precise coordination, and dedication to safety to keep the operation from deteriorating into a great smoking hole in the desert. Now that the Israelis have proved it can be done, many other air forces are making use of the method in high mission activities like Desert Storm and subsequent actions since then.

Until their Arab enemies can pull their socks up and field modern armed services, that can coordinate with their allies, they will continue to get ground into the dirt each time they attack Israel, unless and only until Israel loses the support of the US. Since Israel is the only friend we have in the middle east, a friend that can provide us with intelligence on the area, material we can not do on our own as we have neither the language skills or the requisite intelligence skills. As I have noted in other posts, the Israelis captured several Russian state-of-the-art SAM sites from Egypt, during one of the late 60's early 70's war, which they offered to the US an partial exchange for several squadrons of F-4's, to replace their recent combat losses. One of our electronic companies which fielded an electronic countermeasure, ECM, pod that saved us many more aircraft over Viet Nam to say nothing of their crews.

Israel currently works under the theory of a Texas football teams which notes, "Mess with the bulls and you'll get the horn!", in their dealings with their aggressive neighbors. Taking a lesson from other agreements hammered out by US or other agencies, resulting in very pretty treaties that were promptly ignored by the Arabian signatories, and little better from the all but useless United Nations, started taking its own defense seriously early in its short life. Its very boundaries at the formation of their little state were the results of answering Arabic attacks with counterattacks of their own with hastily formed defense forces, resulting in Israel fighting for their very boundaries. Since the Russians don't have the money to spend on satellite contrives let alone allies like Cuba and the various Arab states, I'd say they have a pretty good chance of making it in the future too.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:36 PM

Yes, C.Ham, absolutely....they did have the Soviet Union's support during that lengthy period you allude to (and that's why the Arabs fought Israel with massed armies in that period), but that hasn't been the case lately (since 1989). That was exactly my point. At present, Israel is the only one with the effective backing of a superpower, and that has helped greatly destabilize the whole situation, because you need a relative balance of power in a dispute to keep things from falling apart.

In fact, the whole world has been in far greater peril since the collapse of the Soviet Union, and has seen more wars because of it.

Great wars are triggered when an Empire starts to fall apart at the seams or collapses altogether, because a power vacuum is created and whoever is strongest will try to move into it, against the wishes of many people...and that's when the really serious fighing begins.

America has felt strong enough since the end of the Soviet Union to do as it pleases. So has Israel. That is exceedingly perilous. It's better when major powers are afraid to reach too far, because of what the opposition might do in response. When they lose that fear and become arrogant and absolutely sure of their military supremacy, all bets are off, and any crazy thing can happen...including nuclear war.

It doesn't all happen in a day. It happens in stages, through a series of misadventures, reactions, and counterreactions. At a certain point it becomes uncontrollable. That's what happened in 1914, and it can happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:38 PM

LH: Israel left Gaza under its own steam. They left Lebanon under its own steam. They do indeed have a strong military--so of course that begs the question, "Why did Hezbollah yank their tail?"

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:51 PM

I don't know, Peace. What I do know is that Israel and all its various Islamic opponents are constantly pulling each other's tail in a great variety of ways. There are probably a great variety of reasons for it too.

There is always a debate in Israel, as there is anywhere, with hardliners on one side and moderates on the other...and policies change. There are always internal power struggles happening in groups like Hezbollah or Hamas too. It's an infernally complicated situation.

The Muslims fighters have sometimes been able to exchange a few Israeli prisoners they took for many of their own people who have been imprisoned by the Israelis, and that may have been precisely what Hezbollah was after....or it may have been something else entirely. I don't know.

Now, however, both Hezbollah AND Israel are afraid of appearing weak, so both are inclined to escalate the fighting. That's dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:04 PM

What y'all are overlooking is the power of Islam, once a uniter, now a divider, in certain cases. F'rinstance in Iraq there was a peace imposed by terror of the leadership, the outnumbered Sunni leadership. The Shiite majority of Iraq are now flexing their numbers as the 'allies' attempt to install a working democracy. The first resort of the insurgency is to bomb the allies, but the second plan is to foment civil war between the two great ethnic groups, Sunni and Shiite. The Shiites resonate with the Shiite Iranians, but there is a huge ethnic divide there, between Arab and Farsi. Meanwhile, the other Arab states are controlled by governments that maintain themselves by one or another force variant. In the majority of cases the only way to oppose the government is through the religious subculture. The Wahhabis in Saudi, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria. So reform got mixed in with religion, not unlike what sort of happened with certain Catholic parts of South America.

There is a huge cultural conflict within the Arab mind, because the Arabs had a period of great cultural flowering and political/military/economic expansion, but have been sidelined for the last couple three hundred years. The reason is they have not processed religion down via the auspices of an enlightenment. The scientific method has not succeeded yet in overthrowing the religious temperament in the average mind.

There is a temporal disparity between the west and the east. Unfortunately, now that the east is getting the bomb, that disparity needs to be addressed. It's way more important than little old Israel, although Israel is like the canary in the coal mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:15 PM

Interesting post there, robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:28 PM

Perhaps this will help Guest MG understand my post.
"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".

- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -



"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".

- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -



"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".

- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -



Concerning the Holy Land, the chairman of the Syrian Delegation at the Paris Peace Conference in February 1919 stated:

"The only Arab domination since the Conquest in 635 c.e. hardly lasted, as such, 22 years".

The preceding declarations by Arab politicians have been done before 1967, as they had not the slightest knowledge of the existence of any Palestinian people. How and when did they change their mind and decided that such people existed? When the State of Israel was reborn in 1948 c.e., the "Palestinians" did not exist yet, the Arabs had still not discovered that "ancient" people. They were too busy with the purpose of annihilating the new Sovereign State and did not intend to create any Palestinian entity, but only to distribute the land among the already existing Arab states. They were defeated. They attempted again to destroy Israel in 1967, and were humiliated in only six days, in which they lost the lands that they had usurped in 1948. In those 19 years of Arab occupation of Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, neither Jordan nor Egypt suggested to create a "Palestinian" state, since the still non-existing Palestinians would have never claimed their alleged right to have their own state... Paradoxically, during the British Mandate, it was not any Arab group but the Jews that were known as "Palestinians"!

What other Arabs declared after the Six-Day War:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".

- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -



"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".

- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -



"As I lived in Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today's Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the history and origins of today's Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants".

- Walid Shoebat, an "ex-Palestinian" Arab -


How long do "Palestinians" live in "Palestine"?


According to the United Nations weird standards, any person that spent TWO YEARS (!!!) in "Palestine" before 1948, with or without proof, is a "Palestinian", as well as all the descendants of that person. Indeed, the PLO leaders eagerly demand the "right" of all Palestinians to come back to the land that they occupied before June 1967 c.e., but utterly reject to return back to the land where they lived only 50 years before, namely, in 1917 c.e. Why? Because if they agree to do so, they have to settle back in Iraq, Syria, Arabia, Libya, Egypt... and only a handful Arabs would remain in Israel (by Israel is intended the whole Land between the Yarden River and the Mediterranean Sea, plus the Golan region). It is thoroughly documented that the first inhabitants of Eretz Yisrael after some centuries were the Jewish pioneers, and not the Arabs so-called Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:02 AM

Did you hear the one about the snipers who were waiting to assassinate Hitler?

No. Do tell. I liked the one about the Nazi newspaper.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:08 AM

Two Jewish snipers were on a rooftop waiting for Hitler to come by in his open car. He was supposed to pass by the building at precisely noon. They set up at 11:45 AM in case he was early, and they proceeded to wait. Noon came and no sign of him. 12:05 and still no sign. 12:06, 12:07, 12:08 . . . . Finally at 12:13, the spotter turned to the sniper and said, "Oy, I hope nothing's happened to him!"

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Ian P
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

"Why can't the Arab nations unite"? I am having real difficulty understanding the question or, I should say, why it is a real question anyone feels has a reasonable answer. One may as well ask, Why can't the European / western / eastern / African / Asian / Christian / Islamic / Buddhist / etc. etc. etc. nations unite. They don't unite because they live in the real world of split vested interests, misunderstandings, wilful mongering of many sorts, historical legacies that become mantras, etc, etc. In other words, they behave like human beings have always done. Welcome to the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:04 PM

Well, Guest Ian P I think that was the gist of my point, (or the point of my gist, I'm not sure). Europe has gone a heck of the way toward unification, and has profited greatly thereby, but only after centuries of trying 'everything else'.

The Arabic / Muslim expansion starting from ACE 600 was an important event in human history, but my argument is it is still in process and is inherently 'younger' than the European one, which was set in motion by the Roman conquests of all or most of the barbarian tribes. The Romans gave the kick-start to European culture that the Arab world so desperately needs several hundred years before the birth of Mohammed.

Taking a somewhat remote view to that normally found here, it could be argued that the presence of a new group of Europeanized Jews in the midst of the Mid-East presented a powerful moment of potential cross-fertilization to the area, a small yet vital conglomeration of technological, social, and intellectual ferment, as receptive as it is aggressive. This could have brought a renewed development across the area, since numerically Israel has too few to present a threat to the Arab flavor and culture, just enough to add spice.

And in fact, I think more than anything else it is the force of reaction which has worked against Israel. Peoples such as the so-called Palestinians are displaced all the time. It is the powerful reacionary elements of the established and totalitarian Arab States and the reactionary anti-modernist sub-culture calling itself Islam that forces the Palestinians into their horrible situation, because it is a public and humiliating un-acceptance of Israel. The far better tactic for all would be the resettlement of the Palestinians into Jordan the full embrace of the Israeli state, which if anything would have absorbed the Jewish citizens into the far larger Arab/ Muslim entity much as the Chinese absorbed the Mongols.

At the same time that powerful religious sub-culture is capable of getting millions of human beings willing to sacrifice their lives to its imaginary ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:21 PM

That's it all right, Ian... ;-) Bloody obvious, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,Ian P
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:25 PM

"It is the powerful reacionary elements of the established and totalitarian Arab States and the reactionary anti-modernist sub-culture calling itself Islam *that forces the Palestinians into their horrible situation, because it is a public and humiliating un-acceptance of Israel.*" There's a grain of truth there, but that's a ***huge*** simplification. Now I'm no defender of antisemitism, which is an inherent part of much of middle eastern Islam. And it's also what made post-WWII Jews feel they needed to forge (that should be force) a homeland for themselves, as no one was significantly there to defend them against the final solution. But c'mon, one of the significant factors that forces the Palestinians into their horrible situation is the fact that the borders of Israel are never wide enough for the Israeli government and, guess what?, people already lived there and were forced out of their homes. As long as that happens and keeps happening, non-Israelis will not accept the state of Israel. In any event, Hesbulah say openly they will never accept the state of Israel, and the state of Israel says openly they want to destroy Hesbulah. What chance peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:43 PM

Forced out? Israel has about 1,250,000 Arabs livimg within her borders, guess the fucked up big time eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM

Oh no Dave, the Israel haters mean before the country was established, when Jewish immigration forced out so many people from the land that became Israel, the non Jewish population doubled in a few decades...

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:58 PM

Thanks Bunnahabhain I stand corrected LOL :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:03 PM

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story202.html

Forced out. I personally know two older Palestinian men who lost orange orchards. We have to know what went on here. We can't keep repeating sanitized mythology. It was brutal and ugly. That doesn't permit or excuse terrorism..I have said frequently I would shoot the terrorists dead. But we have to know the history of all of this and it isn't pretty. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM

No, it wasn't pretty. Some people lost out bigtime, and some are still losing out bigtime.

Both sides have their own mythology, and with the same purpose: to make themselves look innocent, and paint the other side as totally evil. Both sides will make excuses for their violent acts, and claim that the other side hurt them first. That's typical of such long-running disputes....it's always the "other guy" who's responsible for everything bad that happens, isn't it? (sarcasm)

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:42 AM

There is no doubt that the Irgun forced some people from lands they occupied; the Israelis will try to point out that it was mostly done to people who supported the Arab Legion. Not that two wrongs make a right; but imagine being a survivor of the Holocaust and being attacked by well armed (By the British too) Arabs, who were known to have killed and murdered jews who had surrendered. To be surrounded by nations that were determined to destroy you, and you had no safe place to go.

One of my teachers served in the British army in Palestine, he did not care for either side having been shot at by both. He did mention that one thing he always regreted was disarming Jewish settlers, who were all subsequently killed within 24 hours of his unit leaving the area. As Golda Meir opined "the only time there will be peace between the jews and the arabs is when the arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us" The simple answer is to stop killing and hating. There is enough land for everyone and there are greater enemies to fight, Poverty, Ignorance, Hunger and Disease. With enough glory for all in the defeat of these.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:48 AM

BRAVO!

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: jaze
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:00 AM

Can anyone explain to me why the Jews are hated so? This goes back several thousand years. What exactly did they do that was so terrible? I can't think of another race/religion that has been hated with such vehemence for so long. What did they do?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:07 AM

Because they are HUMAN???
Why can't the Irish, American Indians, Christians....
Your choice here..fill in the blank.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Grab
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:23 PM

There is enough land for everyone

That's rather the problem, Dave - there *isn't*. Not if you're one of the many, many Palestinian farmers thrown off their land by Jewish settlers. If there was enough land for everyone, why don't the Israelis head off over there...?

This isn't driven by a hatred of the Jewish religion or people, Jaze. Rather, it's driven by a hatred of the actions of the Israeli government. "Jew" or "Jewish" is only used as a synonym for "Israeli" in the same way that "Communist" used to be used as a synonym for "Russian".

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:41 PM

I'm kinda holding off, waiting for Myles to step back in to the thread he initiated with a progress report. Meanwhile, Graham ol' bloke, let me tell ya a question:

Do you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them?

Let's unload it a bit. I'm not asking you to comment on the actual events of the past few weeks, just a simple concept. Does Israel have borders that can be recognized and that can by right of statehood be defended?

Yes or No with additional verbage as you will.
..in the kindest possible way...

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:42 PM

Right on, Grab.

I would say, though, that there is always "enough land for everyone", provided that everyone is of goodwill. That, however, has never yet happened in the history of human affairs, has it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM

There are certain sayings that are very offensive to Palestinians, from what I have heard and read. One is about making the desert bloom. One is a land with no people for a people with no land. And the third is the one just quoted about Arabs learning to love their children. Be warned that these are offensive statements and choose whether to continue using them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:49 PM

mg:

You just used all three of 'em. I resent you trying to piss off those you call Palestinians.

I'd rather piss you off with logic and the facts.

But that's just me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why can't Arab nations unite ?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:51 PM

IMO, Myles should address this question to the Arab world.