BS: Meaning of German word - kuer

Subject: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Joybell
Date: 15 May 07 - 01:21 AM

True-love has taken to doing German crosswords. Can anyone help with the meaning of this word.
Here's the background:

the word is "kuer", that is, k, u-umlaut, r. i think it may have something to do with improvised gymnastics. i've consulted all 4 of my german-english dictionaries, and googled in german, but the translations i get just render it as "kuer". is it an acronym, or somebody's name? many thanks, hildebrand

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 May 07 - 01:36 AM

Hi, Joy - can you give us more of the context?
"Kur" without the umlaut is "cure," which is the course of treatment you get in the mud baths and such at a health spa (Kurort).

My Cassell's says die Kür is a gymnastic term for "optional exercise" or "free skating." So, I'm wondering if it also means "open swim." As a historical term, it can mean "election."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Ernest
Date: 15 May 07 - 01:53 AM

The word is often used in connection with ice-skating:

Tournaments have an obligatory part (certain figures that have to be done = "Pflicht") and a freestyle part (Kür).

The verb "küren" means to elect, nominate or choose.

Here is the online dictionary I used:

http://dict.leo.org/

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 15 May 07 - 02:07 AM

The verb küren is now obsolete. It was used in the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation for electing the Emperor by the seven Kurfürsten. Note that in this composite noun Kur- has nothing to do with treatment in a spa but with election.

the link to Ernest's dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 May 07 - 02:46 AM

Ernest, that's the difference between a native speaker and somebody who has learned a language in school. My Cassell's dictionary defines Kür as "optional exercise" or "free skating."

I interpreted that as having free time to goof off on the ice ring and do whatever you want. You, being a native speaker, knew right off that this was the opposite of "compulsories," or specified skating exercises.

These little nuances make it hard to perfect one's knowledge of a language. I'm glad you were here to straighten me out.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Joybell
Date: 15 May 07 - 02:49 AM

hildebrand here: many thanks to Joe, Ernest, and Wilfried for your help. i thought it might be something like that, but the references i'd found were unclear. i found the verb "kueren", and "kuer" as a combining form, but not as a noun. i'm very pleased to see - as i suspected - that it has a special application in certain types of competition, and to learn exactly what that means. i hadn't come across the leo dictionary, and i think it will be useful in further puzzle-solving. all the best. hildebrand

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 May 07 - 05:11 AM

"Kür" and "küren" are remotely related to the "cern" part of the English "discern".

I'm sure I could find at least ten sports with a Kür-part (what is the English word fore "Kunstradfahren"? Figure cycling?). The verb "küren" is not obsolete. Just the range of contexts in which it can be used without eliciting laughter is smaller.

It remains today a (the most?) frequent choice of journalists to describe who is the winner of a beauty pageant:

"...wurde zur Schönheitskönigin Schwabens gekürt"

Another context in which this verb is often used is the "word of the year".

Fanmeile" wurde zum Wort des Jahres 2006 gekürt"

Some more uses from a random Google search:

"Küren Sie die besten Airlines" (Capital)
"Bester Deutsche Jungbrauer gekürt"
"Nicolas Sarkozy zum Präsidentschaftskandidaten der UMP gekürt ..."
or in Denglish:
"User küren beste Website"

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 May 07 - 05:49 AM

Even the old meaning (election) of the noun is still in (rare) use:

"Die Kür der Deutschen Weinkönigin..."

I guess the really rare verb "kören" (rank males for breeding) is related too.

Whether "erkiesen" (very, very rare for elect) is related as well I don't know, but one may guess so from the PP "erkoren" or even "auserkoren" which I only know from old Christian songs:

"...von einer Jungfrau auserkoren"

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 May 07 - 01:39 PM

Footnote: Looked in my German science dictionary, and the verb küren*. is defined as to choose, elect.

Words in science or technical fields may depart from meanings or frequency of use in German speech, e. g.,
kören is neither obsolete nor rare in technical German writing; in the broad sense it means to assay, or to inspect but in certain senses, to select.

auserkoren*, as chosen, selected, also is common in German scientific writing (as well as common speech, if I am reading you correctly, Wolfgang?).

erkiesen, according to my dictionaries, as Wolfgang says, is found in poetic use, along with erkoren, but not in ordinary speech (old German songs, as Wolfgang says).

I had to read a lot of technical German but I have lost a lot since I retired. Unfortunately I never learned to speak German. Technical German is quite different from spoken German.

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 May 07 - 01:56 PM

In my field of scientific writing these words are not used, but that means nothing, for the different technical languages often have close to no overlap with spoken German and with each other.

If I remember, I'll ask tomorrow some dozen students whether they know some of these words.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 May 07 - 02:13 PM

True! My fields were geology and paleontology on the one hand, and chemistry, spec. geochemistry; each has developed its own vocabulary. Fortunately, we had a couple of German university graduates one in physical chemistry and the other in engineering- and they could help with constructions with which I was unfamiliar.

I would also be certain that these techincal languages are continuing to evolve. If one doesn't keep up with his speciality, he would be lost (which describes me since I retired years ago).

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 07 - 02:23 PM

The only morsel of info I can offer is the name of a German WWI dreadnought: the Grosser Kurfürst

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 15 May 07 - 03:34 PM

if bat is fliedermaus
and man is mensch

is batman - fliedermaus mensch?

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 May 07 - 04:01 PM

I have never seen any other word in German than "Batman". But if it would be translated it would be "Fledermausmensch" or Fledermausmann".

We use lots of English words. We even invent some of them. So we call our cellphone (mobile phone) "Handy" (plural: Handys) and pronounce the word the English way. It is really confusing for a German to talk to a native speaker and find that they do not understand the word "Handy" which for us just must have an English origin.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 07 - 05:01 PM

"Da-da-da-da-da-da-da...Fledermausmensch...Fledermausmensch...Fledermausmensch....
Da-da-da-da-da-da-da...FLEDERMAUSMENSCH!!!!!!!!!!!!"


Hmm. Just doesn't seem to do the job, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Meaning of German word - kuer
From: Joybell
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:51 PM

hildebrand here, wishing to add my thanks to Q, Wolfgang, and petr for their additional insights. if the romance root "cern" is related to "kuer", that suggests a common indo-european root, and possible cognates beginning with s- in the eastern ("satem") languages, e.g. slavic, armenian, persian, sanskrit... but that's way out of my field.    all the best, hildebrand