BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!

Subject: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 09:36 AM

I see that it's finally been launched by its namesake, Sir David Attenborough.
I'm heartbroken that they rejected the suggestion of 'Boaty McBoatface' for a name.
Anyone else feel the same?

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Jos
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 10:00 AM

They are using the name for one of its mini-submarines - I think that will suit it well (and it does go to show that just because the 'great' British, American, whatever ... public vote for something, even by ever so small a margin, that doesn't ALWAYS mean it's a really good idea).

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 10:01 AM

I think the original name was ridiculous. It is the daft sort of name greenpeace would come up with. It trivializes the role of the vessel.

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 10:53 AM

Iains - I am surprised that someone who is disparaging about Greenpeace would feel comfortable in the folk / traditional / music and songs of rebellion community?
James Hand, who originally suggested the name, was only adding to an existing list of amusing suggestions by members of the public - and those with a sense of humour (or a sense of the ridiculous) were delighted to add their support! Don't think he has any particular connection to Greenpeace?
- Canny be any more ridiculous than the launch ceremony where David Attenborough pressed the 'go' button to - according to the screen text, Land of Hope and Glory - but in actual fact the sound system was delivering the (English) national(*offensive) anthem, so I guess he has somehow become royal?
(* the alleged national anthem was originally composed as a rallying song for the citizens of London who were fleeing Bonnie Prince Charlie and his Jacobite army as they approached the city. Not sure how it managed to drop the nasty verse about the Scots then segued into god save the king/queen?!ggggrrrr)

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 11:56 AM

Greenpeace is not quite as pure as driven snow:
https://andymaypetrophysicist.com/greenpeace-crimes-and-lies-2/

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 01:03 PM

Gallus Moll: but in actual fact the sound system was delivering the (English) national(*offensive) anthem, so I guess he has somehow become royal?
(* the alleged national anthem was originally composed as a rallying song for the citizens of London who were fleeing Bonnie Prince Charlie and his Jacobite army as they approached the city. Not sure how it managed to drop the nasty verse about the Scots then segued into god save the king/queen?!ggggrrrr)

That is not in fact the case. The National Anthem is in fact the anthem of the United Kingdom of Gt Britain and Northern Ireland, not the "English" national anthem, although it's used as such at many sporting events.

The lyrics were written in 1744, not 1745 as you assert, but they were published in the "Gentleman's Magazine" in 1745, and are nothing to do with a rallying cry for citizens of London fleeing Prince Charles' army (which didn't in fact "approach the city"....unless you mean the city of Derby, which is as near as he got).

The "nasty verse about the Scots" was never part of the original lyrics, and didn't appear in either the original publication and performances in 1744, nor in the 1745 lyrics published in the Gentleman's Magazine. It certainly originated in 1745, but so did a great many "alternative" verses, including Jacobite ones such as:

God bless the prince, I pray,
God bless the prince, I pray,
Charlie I mean;
That Scotland we may see
Freed from vile Presbyt'ry,
Both George and his Feckie,
Ever so, Amen

None of these alternative verses, be they anti-Scots, anti-English or anti-French, were ever part of the official anthem, but Scots with a chip on their shoulder (and I do have Scots ancestry myself) always seem to bring this up to "prove" that the anthem is anti-Scotland.

Now I'm neither big on anthems, nor on nationalism, nor have any particular fondness for the royal family....but I do hate historical inaccuracies repeated as "facts" and the "Braveheartisation" of history.

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 01:03 PM

Absolutely not, Sen. If anything ever demonstrated the potential infantile stupidity of social media & of the pandering to it, it was that.

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 01:05 PM

And very well said, Rob!

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 02:42 PM

Sorry Sen, for once I have to disagree with you (although I'm still your greatest fan!). It's not a 'boat', it's a ship so, strictly speaking it should have been 'Shippy McShipface'. :-)

But, I much prefer her being named after our wonderful Sir David Attenborough, a fitting tribute to a great broadcaster and ecological champion.

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:11 PM

Ah, well...I always did feel drawn to the ridiculous! Major failing I suppose.
But I have always adored Sir David Attenborough, and met him at a book signing in a Norwich store some years ago. Lovely man. So the ship is well-named really.

(I do like 'Shippy McShipface' though)

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:19 PM

That "Boaty McBoatface" vote was a warning of THINGS THAT WERE TO COME. In 2016 we elected Boaty McBoatface.

And "McShipface" is too easy to mishear.

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:22 PM

Lol, Robo. There's nothing wrong with being drawn to the ridiculous, Sen. It's when you're ridiculous to be drawn... *sobs* ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:29 PM

Heh heh Raedwulf. :)

I could think of quite a few people in public life who could be named Shitty McShitface robomatic!

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:57 PM

Hi Rob, if you research a little more you will discover that there were 'god save the king' type songs on the go from very early times, and like many folk songs they seem to have been tweaked to suit different countries, eras, events, kings/queens - -apparently the Jacobites had their own version of this song. And there was certainly a verse composed in 1745 - and used for the short term - regarding 'rebellious Scots to crush'.
Some edited bits below:

"Historic Jacobite and anti-Jacobite alternative verses[edit]
Around 1745, anti-Jacobite sentiment was captured in a verse appended to the song, with a prayer for the success of Field Marshal George Wade's army then assembling at Newcastle. These words attained some short-term use, although they did not appear in the published version in the October 1745 Gentleman's Magazine. This verse was first documented as an occasional addition to the original anthem by Richard Clark in 1822,[36] and was also mentioned in a later article on the song, published by the Gentleman's Magazine in October 1836. Therein, it is presented as an "additional verse... though being of temporary application only... stored in the memory of an old friend... who was born in the very year 1745, and was thus the associate of those who heard it first sung", the lyrics given being:

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.

On the opposing side, Jacobite beliefs were demonstrated in an alternative verse used during the same period:[40]
God bless the prince, I pray,
God bless the prince, I pray,
Charlie I mean;
That Scotland we may see
Freed from vile Presbyt'ry,
Both George and his Feckie,
Ever so, Amen.

Various other attempts were made during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to add verses to commemorate particular royal or national events. For example, according to Fitzroy Maclean, when Jacobite forces bypassed Wade's force and reached Derby, but then retreated and when their garrison at Carlisle Castle surrendered to a second government army led by King George's son, the Duke of Cumberland, another verse was added.[43] Other short-lived verses were notably anti-French, such as the following, quoted in the book Handel by Edward J. Dent:[44]

From France and Pretender
Great Britain defend her,
Foes let them fall;
From foreign slavery,
Priests and their knavery,
And Popish Reverie,
God save us all.

However, none of these additional verses survived into the twentieth century.[45] Updated "full" versions including additional verses have been published more recently, including the standard three verses, Hickson's fourth verse, Sheridan's verse and the Marshal Wade verse.[46]["

As for me - - I have refrained from acknowledging / standing for any **english/british national anthem - apart from the occasions when I am at a 'top table' - then I do stand, but pass my glass of whisky over a glass or jug of water, whispering 'king over the water' under my breath - I refuse to acknowledge the conventions the establishment tries to impose on me!

(**can someone PLEASE tell me why so much about life in these allegedly united kingdoms has UK /Britain/England being interchangeable? - and you wonder why Scots complain - -- ???

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 04:38 PM

Sooooo… Because you can find a polluted verse that might possibly include something you personally object to... Therefore the whole thing is... Pardon me, Gallus, if you think I am doing you a disservice, but you do rather read that way! ;-)

We all surely know that any popular tune got bent all which ways, in exactly the way that you're demonstrating. These days it's bloody memes - take one photo, and what it gets bent into, Your Favourite Composer's X Number Of Variations On A Theme, right? But it's still the same thing, innit? ;-) Look for an -ism, you'll find it; look for an anti me/wot-I-want, you'll find it, It's easy to be anti-; it's harder to find reasons to feel sympathy (rather stupidly). Am I wrong?

Scots complain for the same reason the English support the underdog / queue - it's genetic. Go on, tell me I'm wrong! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: That Polar Explorer Ship!
From: Jos
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 05:41 PM

"why so much about life in these allegedly united kingdoms has UK /Britain/England being interchangeable"

It's probably the same reason that Trump thinks his owning property in Ireland proves how enthusiastic he is about the UK ...