Origins: Tramps and Hawkers

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 12:59 PM

MtheGM alludes to the use of the Tramps and Hawkers tune by Tommy Armstrong for "The Durham Lockout".

I did a little reading up about the Durham song a few years ago and what I seem to remember is that Tommy used the tune of "The Ball at Killiemuir" not only for "Lockout" but for most of his other compositions as well. It was A. L. Lloyd who popularised the use of the less risible Tramps tune for Durham Lockout.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 01:07 PM

Yes, Bob; now you mention it I had heard that before. It is given to the T & H tune in Bert's collections, indeed.

If I may be a bit pedantic, the place the notorious ball occurred [or not!] was supposedly Kirriemuir, Angus, a real place; as well as venue of the ball, it was the birthplace of Sir J M Barrie, author of Peter Pan.

~M~

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Greg
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 05:10 PM

Thanks for the translations of Can raise the Wind, and "doss."

I should have had the good sense to check an English dictionary on the latter, though, as a speaker of American English, I have to say I have never encountered that word (or if I have, I have definitely forgotten it). I should read more English novels.

Thanks for the help!

Greg

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 06:31 PM

Jim Reid composed his lovely tune to make 'The Wild Geese' - a poem by Violet Jacob - into a song, Norland Win'

Subject: RE: Origins: Tramps and Hawkers
From: GUEST,JaredM1988
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 02:09 PM

Didn’t Alex Campbell do a song with different lyrics, but the same melody as Tramps And Hawkers?

Subject: RE: Origins: Tramps and Hawkers
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 02:42 PM

ALEX recorded tramps and hawkers words to the tramps and hawkerstune

Subject: RE: Origins: Tramps and Hawkers
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 03:50 PM

I think he did the Durham Lockout using the same tune as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: Tramps and Hawkers
From: Roughyed
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 03:51 PM

Sorry, that Guest was me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Tramps and Hawkers
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 04:16 PM

"Ah Cannae raise the wynde"   means being unable to summon up the effort required ....to perform a task.    Out of breath.

Subject: RE: Origins: Tramps and Hawkers
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 11:50 AM

Apparently Dylan learned the tune from Canadian Folk singer Bonnie Dobson's version of "Peter Emberley" (Northeast/Maritime/Atlantic Canadian folk ballad about a Prince Edward Island lad who dies in a New Brunswick lumberyard accident).

"Emberley" usually has a distinct arrangement/tune that I wouldn't feel comfortable calling the "Tramps and Hawkers" melody. It's similar but not the same. Yet, Dobson mixes the standard "Emberley" melody with the "Hawkers" melody, especially in the first and last lines. Dylan is supposed to have written that rare "Donald White" ballad using the melody and later recording it with the "I Pity The Poor Immigrant" lyrics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAzBpHtzXnQ

Interestingly, there is a second and rare Prince-Edward-Island-Boy-dies-in-lumberyard song entitled "John Ladner". This man died in a Maine lumberyard in 1900 and his body sent back to PEI to be buried. Ladner is buried in little country cemetery where some of my family and friends are also resting. "Ladner's" melody is "Tramps and Hawkers" (in all the versions I've heard thus far).

"John Ladner" seems never to have made the acoustic guitar folkie evolution. The only recordings I have heard or can find were done by folklorists Louise Manny and Edward D. Ives in the 1940s-1960s. These are from unprofessional, mostly retired labourer senior citizens recorded in the field and have never (or rarely) been published.

As you can hear from this 1947-48 recording of "Ladner" by Stanley MacDonald from the Louise Manny Collection, it is the "Tramps and Hawkers" melody. No one knows who wrote the words but it must have been a chum from Maine who knew Ladner well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUyLesf-9QE

Edward D. Ives wrote an essay about the song that I'm looking for and may contain more info but this is an interesting instance of the melody usage in the Northeast of North America.

Subject: RE: Origins: Tramps and Hawkers
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 09:01 AM

Just recently re-discovered one of my old LPs of the McPeake Family, on which there is a lovely instrumental track led by a Uilleann piper called “The Winding Banks of Erne”: thought the tune sounded familiar, and yes, the sleeve notes say it is otherwise known as “Tramps and Hawkers”.
The notes also mention that the tune was used for another song called “The Smashing of the Van”, “commemorating a blow struck by 4 Irish freedom fighters in Manchester in 1860. The original Gaelic song from which they are all descended is An Col Druimin Og - the slender-backed girl - if you translate it not too literally.”

Subject: RE: Origins: Tramps and Hawkers
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 01:13 PM

I think that's a bit definitive really- talking about the 'original' version of anything is a bit dangerous- this should be an IMHO moment?

Subject: RE: Origins: Tramps and Hawkers
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 02:44 PM

It wasn’t IMHO, Jim, viz the quote marks! I merely copied the sleeve notes from the album! No idea whose VHO that was as the notes are not signed.

Subject: RE: Origins: Tramps and Hawkers
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 03:27 PM

A. L. Lloyd used the same tune for the forebitter "Paddy West," and Mick Jagger - in "Ned Kelly" (1970) - used it for "The Wild Colonial Boy."

Subject: RE: Origins: Tramps and Hawkers
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 05:47 AM

OK sorry Tattie- misread it- a bit late to dispute ancient sleeve notes ! but that's how such nonsense gets to be the accepted truth.

Especially from respected musicians like the McPeakes- it could as you say it's unsigned, have been written by the company tealady or somebody 'from Barcelona'.