BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:22 AM

"enthusiastically"

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:54 AM

"chastised"

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 10:08 AM

OK Ron let's recap shall we?

On any specific points please tell me where I am wrong:

Ron Davies - wants the troops of the Multi National Force out of Iraq as soon as possible.

Teribus - wants the troops of the Multi National Force to remain inplace until such time as the Government of Iraq asks them to leave or they are ordered to leave when their UN Mandate expires.

Now taking into account that the vast majority of acts of violence being perpetrated in Iraq today are sectarian bombings, kidnappings and murders, does anybody think that reducing the forces of law and order would be beneficial at this point.

When was the last time anybody heard anything about Al-Queda-in-Iraq? When was the last notable insurgent strike against "the-forces-of-the-oppressor"?

Ron Davies - Gravely concerned about the ARAB SUNNI minority, who in general are currently backing the insurgents, albeit in various degrees in terms of active support, passive support or in mainting a sort of strict neutrality. Ron's concerns are centred on how this ARAB SUNNI minority might be treated by the newly elected Iraq Government operating under the terms of the new Iraqi Constitution.

Teribus - Not concerned about the ARAB SUNNI minority in the slightest. They have exactly the same rights under law as any other Iraqi citizen. Teribus believes that it is up to the ARAB SUNNI minority to demonstrate to the entire population of Iraq that they actually want to live peacefully as Iraqi citizens. For them to do this they have to abandon ALL support for the insurrection, they must provide the forces of law and order with ALL necessary assistance in order to establish rule of law and order in their country.

"Payback" is what the ARAB SUNNI minority fear, the prospect of it causes them to distrust the Iraqi Police and Iraqi Army. OK Ron, where does this collective concern come from? Could it possibly be "collective guilt" for past behaviour towards the majority of Iraqi citizens during the period 1979 and 2003? Unfortunately in looking at this Ron employs his American mindset and outlook to the problem. So "most" ARAB SUNNI's had nothing to do with the excesses of Saddam's regime, Ron, don't look to the ARAB SUNNI man in the street to jump up and proclaim that. The ARAB SUNNI man in the street does not even have an opinion, or if he does he knows full well never to express it if it runs counter to what he was told to think and how he was told to behave the previous Friday at the Mosque. Because his local tribal chief, his local Sheik, his local Immam do his thinking for him. Politically the ARAB SUNNI minority are not a mass of individuals they are basically a flock of sheep, the same can be said for the ARAB SHIA, they will blindly do what one or two people tell them to do, irrespective of whether or not it happens to be in their best interests. This is true throughout the region.

Ron Davies - believes that their way forward is to carry on as they are doing and just sit back and demand rights and privileges, whilst blackmailing the country at large with insurrection and terrorist attacks. Ron's way supports their boycott of the political process and complete lack of political dialogue

Teribus - believes that their way forward is to actually take a step of faith in their new government. Get behind the forces of law and order. Actively engage in the political process.

All of this is demonstrated in one of Ron's posts:

"You want Sunnis to provide proof that they are willing to live in Iraq with the same rights as others. I submit that most already do so-- and would only like to have jobs, electricity, running water etc.-- the same desires as other Iraqis. However the Sunnis would also like to not be arrested or killed for having a Sunni name."

Now have a good read of that.

With regard to JOBS:
Plenty of jobs in Kurdish areas, well paid jobs too. People from Anbar and Sallahadin Provinces go there to find work. Why is there no reconstruction work in their own Provinces Ron? Anything to do with a bunch of terrorists telling them that any work on any reconstruction project will be regarded as collaboration with the "enemy", and that the penalty for collaboration is death? Don't they need Policemen and Army Recruits from those Provinces Ron? Surely the ARAB SUNNI minority would trust their own kind wouldn't they Ron? Who, or what is stopping young ARAB SUNNI men from applying for those positions?

With regard to ELECTRICITY, RUNNING WATER, ETC:
Who is it that is attacking and sabotaging the power grid and generation capacity of Iraq within those areas Ron? Shia or Sunni Kurds? - No. SHIA ARABS? - No. SUNNI ARABS? - YES

Who is it that is attacking and sabotaging water supplies in these provinces Ron? Shia or Sunni Kurds? - No. SHIA ARABS? - No. SUNNI ARABS? - YES

Are the bulk of the SUNNI ARAB population in these provinces doing anything about that considering Ron's contention that they want electricity and running water, etc - NO.

"However the ....... (Insert name of whatever ethnic/religious sect) would also like to not be arrested or killed for having a .......(Insert name of whatever point of distinction that identifies anyone as belonging to that ethnic/religious sect)" The bulk of the violence in Iraq today is sectarian both and is largely restricted to the ARAB population both SUNNI and SHIA, both sides have their concerns that I am sure they can fully justify, but somebody somewhere along the line has to take that first leap of faith, in today's Iraq that has to be the SUNNI ARAB section of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 02:56 PM

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 11:36 PM

Uh, Teribus--will you ever start reading your own questions? Even when you provide your own answers, you don't seem to notice.

Don't have much time now. But just to pick one question of yours that actually makes sense--a major step forward: Why aren't young Sunnis signing up for the Iraqi army or police? As you noted yourself, even trying to do so would be very dangerous. Do you by some chance recall the attacks on young men lining up for such jobs? It shouldn't take you long to find such references. And just think, if you wait a little while, it may well happen again.

You are falling into the old military trap (being one of the old military, it's not surprising)--you think every problem can be solved by military means.

It should be obvious to anybody with a modicum of sense--might that possibly include you?--that the Iraq situation is at bottom a political question. As long as the political issues are not settled, it won't make any difference how big the Iraq army or police is. At this point, Sunnis in general want no part of either. As much as it annoys you- it really breaks my heart to tell you--for the n th time---I wonder how many more times it will take until you start to understand--- Iraq will have to take Sunnis' interests into account.

In fact, it appears the US military may finally be realizing what it will take you a few more centuries to grasp---that actually one of the best counterinsurgency techniques in Iraq would be to provide civilian employment. The army is now trying to convince US firms to set up shop in abandoned or underused facilities. With unemployment at 70% in some areas, and breadwinners responsible for up to 15 dependents, some heads of household are taking insurgents' money to set up bombs, etc. As well as being so discouraged and infuriated as to strike out against anybody.

Both of which could be addressed by employment.

And not by your favorite solution--a bigger military and police.

So sorry--but maybe you'll realize this eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 11:44 PM

Teribus--

One more thing--no matter what you say--and it's fascinating how after a full year, you still have no sensible counter-argument--the 2 issues I have been noting MUST be addressed:

Sunnis must:

1) be able to trust the police--which means purging it of Shiite militias

2) be guaranteed more oil revenue than would accrue to them from just the "Sunni areas" of Iraq. Perhaps you might want to do some reading on the federalism plans now being discussed in the Iraq parliament--plans which are precisely the reason for Sunnis' concern on this score.

Who knows, if you start reading, you might learn something.

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:28 AM

Ron Davies - Point 1:
Ron Davies - 12 Dec 06 - 11:36 PM

"Uh, Teribus--will you ever start reading your own questions? Even when you provide your own answers, you don't seem to notice.

But just to pick one question of yours that actually makes sense--a major step forward: Why aren't young Sunnis signing up for the Iraqi army or police? As you noted yourself, even trying to do so would be very dangerous. Do you by some chance recall the attacks on young men lining up for such jobs?"

In ALL reports of such attacks on Police or Army recruitment centres Ron the attacks were carried out by insurgent groups - SUNNI ARABS.

From the same post:

"You are falling into the old military trap (being one of the old military, it's not surprising)--you think every problem can be solved by military means."

Just demonstrates your propensity to read what you want to read - In actual fact I have stated exactly the opposite on many occasions - Ron you really should work on your english comprehension skills.

Of course at bottom it has to be a political solution, and one in which the USA has no say. The Arab Sunni's, or more correctly those "leaders" who instruct the Arab Sunni's in what to say and think, decided very early on to have no part in the emergent political process. Those same people now complain that they have been left behind - their choice then, it's their choice now, what they have to do is catch up, what they have to do is actively engage. They cannot do that, Ron, with any degree of credibility if they are going to talks during the day and making bombs for insurgents and sheltering them and their activities by night. It is one of those things where a decision has to be made, same thing happened in Ireland, where Bertie Ahern stated that Sinn Fein would never form any part of government while the IRA remained under arms, because you cannot have anyone engaged in a democractic process who maintains a private army. What they are doing at the moment is they have issued a list of what the Government must do to get them to the table - That Ron is blackmail, and no Government should submit to it.

They want employment in the Arab Sunni provinces of Iraq? Then they should turn their backs on the insurgents. Last bomb went off in the Kurdish area of Iraq which is mixed (Both Sunni and Shia) two years ago - Erbil is now a tourist destination, there is no shortage of jobs in either the Kurdish North of the country or in the predominantly Shia South - Only in the Arab Sunni Provinces where the insurgency has it's base.

As far as I am aware activities relating to purging the Iraqi Police Force and Army of Shia Militia members is already underway. Has it been completed? no these things take time, but it is incorrect to say that the problem has not been recognised and that nothing is being done about it.

As for the revenue from Iraq's natural resources, the deal struck meant that the Arab Sunni provinces got whatever share of the oil revenue that they received before (the bulk of Iraq's oil coming from existing fields). New fields and exploration would be subject to a different division of revenue as the "Federal Areas" would take a share in the costs of exploration and development in partnership with the oil companies. All of that can be up for negotiation at a later date, at the moment that is not a priority, nor should it be. What the "leaders" of the Arab Sunni minority need to hoist onboard and quickly as possible is that if they do not engage in the political process (difficult as it is for those "leaders" as it will involve a bit of a U-turn with subsequent "loss of face") they will be left astern, with no other hope save their doomed insurrection, which in the ensuing "civil war" will be crushed. It is entirely their decision and they must accept the consequences of whatever it is they decide.

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: GUEST,UP AP AND THE BEANO.
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:28 AM

Big news, Bush has posponed his address to the nation, his excuse is he hasn`t it prepared yet, so far he has go to, my fellow citizens, we are now much closer to winning the war in Iraq, eh, er, er,.
Will leave that until the new year.

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: GUEST,Ramsey
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:53 AM

Five hundred to one thousand people die each year in the United States from aspirin, usually from internal bleeding.

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:22 AM

Ah yes, another point for you to ponder.

"Payback"--which you again seem to be endorsing--so much for your edging into civilized behavior--appears to have been a feint--is not in fact what Sunnis in general fear.

Why?--since it's a misnomer. Most Sunnis did not participate in Saddam's torture and killing of political opponents. So there is no ""payback" in which they should be involved.   But despite this they are being targeted by the Shiite militias, inside and outside the police--and sometimes their own neighbors.

If you look for a parallel try this: Most whites in the US did not participate in the lynching of blacks. Yet according to your analogy, it would be perfectly understandable for whites to be killed by blacks--and the only solution would be for whites to flee. Or if you want a closer analogy, perhaps the end of apartheid in South Africa.

According to you, when the black majority took over, it would be perfectly understandable for black policemen to torture and kill whites--after all, some blacks had suffered that under apartheid. Instead of that, there was a real attempt at reconcilation---very imperfect, but the process in South Africa is still going on.

One major difference in the South Africa situation--after the fall of apartheid, whites could still trust the police. This is absolutely essential.

It appears you've never heard of the old saw "An eye for an eye--and soon everybody is blind".

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:30 AM

Teribus--


If you claim to actually be aware that the Iraq situation is at bottom political, let's have a CLEAR statement from you REJECTING your recent favorite buzzword "payback". Otherwise I'll have to say you're trying desperately to straddle the fence. Must be a bit painful.

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 12:24 PM

Ron, let's just stick to the situation we are discussing, no need to transpose things to other places and othr times.

What I have said is perfectly clear - the Arab Sunni's have to catch up to the political process and get involved, they have to renounce support for the insurgents, they have to demonstrate that they are Iraqi's first and Arab Sunni's second.

By the way Ron I do make the distinction between Arab Sunni's and others of the Sunni faith in Iraq as it has generally been the Arab Sunni's who:
- were given preferential treatment during the reign of Saddam Hussein.
- made up the numbers of The Republican Guard.
- made up the numbers of The Special Republican Guard.
- made up the numbers of The Feydaheen Saddam.
- have given material support to the insurrection
- have given material suport to Ba'athist hardline elements

Elsewhere in Iraq those of the Sunni and Shia faiths seem to living together quite peacefully. Only in the Sunni triangle does there seem to be any great problem. It is entirely down to what the people who live there choose to do, back the government and get onboard politically, or continue to support the insurgency, either way the have to accept the consequences that go with their choice.

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 11:44 PM

Teribus--

If you do make a distinction between ordinary Sunnis and hardcore Baathists, this is a change. I can cite you chapter and verse from your own postings--so don't try to allege that you have not not lumped all Sunnis together as equivalent to hardline Nazis in 1945.

But you're making progress towards sense, anyway.

Now, how about that CLEAR statement rejecting "payback"-- though "payback" is your most recent favorite buzzword?

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:25 AM

Some previous questions of mine for you to answer first Ron:

1. You want the troops of the Multi National Force out of Iraq as soon as possible. Now taking into account that the vast majority of acts of violence being perpetrated in Iraq today are sectarian bombings, kidnappings and murders, does anybody think that reducing the forces of law and order would be beneficial at this point.

2. "Payback" is what the ARAB SUNNI minority fear, the prospect of it causes them to distrust the Iraqi Police and Iraqi Army. OK Ron, where does this collective concern come from? Could it possibly be "collective guilt" for past behaviour towards the majority of Iraqi citizens during the period 1979 and 2003?

3. Why is there no reconstruction work in the Arab Sunni Provinces Ron? Anything to do with a bunch of terrorists telling them that any work on any reconstruction project will be regarded as collaboration with the "enemy", and that the penalty for collaboration is death?

4. Who, or what is stopping young ARAB SUNNI men from applying for employment and positions in the new Iraqi Army and Police Force?

5. Who is it that is attacking and sabotaging the power grid and generation capacity of Iraq within those areas Ron? Shia or Sunni Kurds? - No. SHIA ARABS? - No. SUNNI ARABS? - YES

6. Who is it that is attacking and sabotaging water supplies in these provinces Ron? Shia or Sunni Kurds? - No. SHIA ARABS? - No. SUNNI ARABS? - YES

7. Considering your contention that the ARAB SUNNI population simply want electricity and running water, etc. Are the bulk of the SUNNI ARAB population in these provinces doing anything about the attacks on the people of Iraq and their essential services? Are they behind the forces of law and order trying to stop these attacks? Or are they actively or passively assisting those carrying-out those attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: US Now Officially Losing in Iraq...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:46 AM

Arne,

Science 20 October 2006:
Vol. 314. no. 5798, pp. 396 - 397

you and Teribus seem to read in my posts what is not in there. I have said nothing yet about which side I find more credible. (Though I must admit that the statement of the Iraq body count scientists made an impression on me. They are against the war in no unclear terms and at the same time criticise the Lancet people. That's a welcome change from right wing people always believing the lowest number of dead and left wing people always believing the hightest.)

My links simply refute the wrong statement by TIA: The figure has been publicly challenged, but not by scientists.
To this aim, whether these scientists are only two small groups or whether their arguments are convincing is completely irrelevant.
BTW, that a group of scientists whose methods are criticised say that the critique is wrong means nothing at all. One very rarely sees another reaction.

Wolfgang