BS: Sigh

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Megan L
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 10:57 AM

Think for a moment of the question "Why did the chicken cross the road?" There were two men who witnessed the event. One man on each side of the road.

Now on the side the chicken left from the pavement (kerb)dipped down a little to a garden hedge. The man on that side stated emphatically "the chicken crossed the road to escape from a cat that was coming through the hedge."

On the other side of the street a farmer had been carrying a sack of grain with a small hole in it had stopped for a while to talk to a friend. The witness on this side of the road stated equally emphatically. "The chicken crossed the road to eat the grain.

Each statement may have contained an element of the truth, while a third person may have been able to say that the hen house was on the side with the grain.

Nigel Tranter (writer of many novels based on historical characters) once told my brother when looking at history always read accounts from at least three views,the truth will lie somewhere in the middle.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 11:04 AM

Very good advice, Megan. I myself use the AP, UPI, CBC, CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, Yonhap, Reuters, and others when I read the news online. Then, for wrapping fish entrails, I subscribe to the local paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 11:08 AM

Bollocks. They were all in agreement that the chicken crossed the road to ask Col Sanders for political asylum.

Rather releived to see Raedwulf thinking he disagrees with me. I would like to leave it at that but have sneaking feeling that if he understood my stance, he would be able to say whether he agrees or not, rather than the Keith style "I'll disagree with him anyway."

The Donkeys. Written by a historian, apparently. If he hadn't developed that brain tumour and snuffed it, he could have qualified to be on Keith's little list. 😂😂😂


Yeah Steve, usually manage to bag vineyard visits when on holiday, and spent our honeymoon searching California for the perfect Pinot. (Found it a couple of years later in South Africa but I digress.)

Snag is, the beer references seem to be by those of us at Whitby festival. Beer, basically. Getting in touch with my masculine side. A bit like my feminine side but could do with a shave.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 11:11 AM

Primary sources are essential to historians. I know of no historian who does not consult them. However, eye witness accounts are sometimes not very helpful as a number of people describing the same event will see it very differently. Diaries, documents, maps, contemporary newspaper accounts, cartoons, letters and so on, are all primary sources and historians consult as many as possible.
As for "revisionist" history..it should be kept in mind that over the past number of years more and more documents have become available for study as have letters and diaries.
As a teacher of history I would not tell students that eyewitness accounts always trump historians..I would tell them to read and think critically, regardless of the source, that is objectivity. Historians are not neutral but they can be objective.
What I see a lot of here are people who are not historians misusing
history in order to support outdated views.
As to historians having "agendas", yes some do, but they are not highly respected by their peers. Good, historians, inform and enlighten us, read them and learn and enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 11:43 AM

Can we please reject any truth in the oft-quoted 'history is written by the victors/winners' assertion?

Of course, some of it is, but much is also written by those who were 'defeated' or who were non-participants. The quote is also based upon the mistaken belief that all history is concerned with conflict of some kind when, quite clearly, it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 11:44 AM

I agree Megan,little or nothing in this world is truly black or white it is usually a shade of grey with possibly a hint of another colour.
Your perspective of an event depends on where you are standing,someone in a different place sees it differently only by combining what each one sees can a reasonable agreement on what actually happened be arrived at.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 11:47 AM

Al, I am not being unfriendly, and I am sorry if I come across as that.

I'm not sure where your point of view comes from. are you?

It comes from reading history.
For the last twenty years at least, there has been agreement about those issues I posted about.

You are just shooting the messenger.

What you said about "original sources" from your course was correct, and I said at once that I agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 11:52 AM

Am I the only person round here who loves to pour neat limoncello over my sorbet?



OK, as soon as I find me coat... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 12:04 PM

I agree with Hilo, History can only be properly written when all available facts and sources have been examined.

An eye witness at the Battle of the Somme(like my grandfather) could never be in possession of such facts. He admired General Haig and had the intelligence never to take part in the 1930's revisionism.

"There was no option, it was sacrifice or defeat" he used to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 12:10 PM

Megan/Derrick: a really good example of that can be found by reading some histories of the Scandinavian countries. It is very common to come across (for a made up example) Olaf the Great on one side of the water and Olaf the Terror on the other, when they are one and the same Olaf. Viewpoint is crucial.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 12:35 PM

You are forgiven, Al. To mis-quote someone being tortured to death, you know not what you did. :-) One thing I have noticed though, on this thread and the last, you don't need abuse or libel or incivility to close a thread. Just mention history and sure as eggs is eggs, closure will shortly follow. Wonder why?

Anyway, did I read somewhere back up the thread someone groundlessly accusing me of abuse? Never mind, I forgive them as well. Which answers someone else's question about what I would do if it happened to me. Everyone can see that I have not used any in either thread so it is obvious that the allegation is nonsense. Just as would any allegation of being a troll, wiping my bum with the wrong hand or drinking girly drinks.

Talking of which, yes Steve, I enjoy a drop of the grape juice as well. Just relaxing with a small glass of rather too Rioja as we speak :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 12:35 PM

Anyway, did I read somewhere back up the thread someone groundlessly accusing me of abuse?

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 12:39 PM

Does no mean no-one made the accusation or that it was not groundless? It's not often a one word answer can be ambiguous but if anyone can do it, it will be on Mudcat! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 12:46 PM

No one accused you of abuse, I said you were a troll....which you obviously are.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 12:53 PM

With no examples of trollish behaviour that is just another unsubstantiated allegation. Yet again, I forgive you. It is obviously nonsense and everyone can see it as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 01:27 PM

How's about pouring Baileys over vanilla ice cream which has a dollop of clotted cream on top when it's not even Christmas? Is that forgivable?

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 01:40 PM

Nah. You would be doomed to discuss historians for an eternity :- P

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 01:41 PM

Just one example of many.

Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 12:35 PM

You are forgiven, Al. To mis-quote someone being tortured to death, you know not what you did. :-) One thing I have noticed though, on this thread and the last, you don't need abuse or libel or incivility to close a thread. Just mention history and sure as eggs is eggs, closure will shortly follow. Wonder why?

Anyway, did I read somewhere back up the thread someone groundlessly accusing me of abuse? Never mind, I forgive them as well. Which answers someone else's question about what I would do if it happened to me. Everyone can see that I have not used any in either thread so it is obvious that the allegation is nonsense. Just as would any allegation of being a troll, wiping my bum with the wrong hand or drinking girly drinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 01:54 PM

And that is trollish because..? Do you actually understand what an internet troll is? I am more than happy to help if you need help with modern colloquialisms. Free of charge of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Raedwulf
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 01:58 PM

Mr Mather, I'll agree or disagree with your expressed opinion. The way you express it is too often objectionable, which I always disagree with. Sometimes, I admit, I respond to you in the way you respond to others and, yes, you're quite right, two wrongs don't make a right (not that I expect you to admit that you ever give anyone else just cause...).

Given the "revisionist" remark, I don't think it was unreasonable of me to presume that you fall more on the "Butchers" side of the argument. But I phrased what I said carefully (carefully enough that we seem to be talking instead of slanging each other, anyway! ;-) ), because I don't know for sure.

Incidentally, we do often... well maybe agree is going a bit far, but we're often on the same side of the argument. More often than you may realise. So, out of curiosity, what do you think, broadly, on WWI? Butchers, blameless, or somewhere betwixt & between? (Incidentally, The Donkeys - written by someone who later happily admitted that he made up at least one very well known quote!)

And Ake, I've been known to tell you're being a bloody idiot in public. I've no idea why, but you seem to accept it from me, when you object to it from others. At the minute, you're being a bloody idiot again. Give it a rest, eh? You're not doing yourself any favours, old son.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 02:00 PM

I know exactly what an internet troll is, and you are one...a clumsy and easily spotted one, not dangerous, simply irritating, but one all the same.

Anyone reading your post, the one above, will spot three instances of trolling in one post.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 02:06 PM

:0)....Its because I like you Raed!...and your application for Scottish residence sealed it for me.
The kilt, brogues and sporran await you.

and a great big dram if we ever meet.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 02:08 PM

I think not, but am, as always, willing to be educated. In what way does the post in question indicate that the sole purpose was to cause an argument? I would take Raedwulfs advice if I was you. Or go back to not responding to my posts. Either will be better than digging any deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 02:11 PM

I'll leave the trolls in peace....for now. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 02:22 PM

The last word of someone with no good argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 02:54 PM

Err.. Raedwolf. Just one point. Of course there are many but just a small one.

You said Mr Mather. There is a Musket called Dr Mather, to afford him title as you insist on using it, albeit wrongly, but unless I am mistaken, I am the only Musket on this thread?

And I am not Dr Mather or indeed Mr Mather. (I know he doesn't use his title other than in academia. I do but there again I enjoy profession too.)

Now, I could also have just said fuck off, but I'd prefer to give you respect, even though your outpourings don't seem to deserve it.



I love wine but not too keen on the whining I read on Mudcat these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 03:06 PM

I have just set my two grandsons, aged 4 and 6, talking on a party call to their Mum and Dad. The result sounds very similar to these threads. Lots of noise and whingeing with very little sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 03:40 PM

Am I even allowed to be forgiven for chucking an excessively large amount of sherry in the trifle, a la Futtock's End? Anyone for tennis? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 04:07 PM

Any excessively large amount of sherry is instantly forgiven by me. Which end your Futtocks are is not relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Raedwulf
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 04:31 PM

Whichever Musket I happen to be answering... See? That right there is one very big problem. It's well known that there's three or four people who post under the soubriquet of Musket. Apparently, you're not Ian Mather (who I have run across before (and we have violently disagreed in the past). Now there's you, and you sound just like him.

Max & Joe, and Uncle Mudcat Cobbley & all, have always been very much against restricting Guest privileges, despite all the arguments about it over the years (years before any Musket appeared). You know who you're talking to, because (barring Guests masquerading as members) there's only one person who can legitimately post as.... Raedwulf, Dave the Gnome, akenaton, Whoever. Presuming that we don't share our passwords with anyone else (I don't).

Right now, I've no idea who I'm talking to. Except that you're effectively anonymous. I could, of course, add a string of insults, of sneering, but what would be the point? Forgive me if I've mis-remembered the name, but I refer to Ian Mather, claimed doctor & etc, to distinguish a very odious Musket from less odious Muskets. I'm not, right now, in the mood to track back through past postings to verify whether I've screwed up or not (entirely possible, I admit!). Why does the Musket clan have a problem with adopting unique handles? Most other users seem to be able to manage it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 04:45 PM

But this is Steve Shaw being mischievous, not Raedwulf (sorry, mate). So there's more than one person who can "legitimately" post as you. I promise I'll never do this again!

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Raedwulf
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 04:48 PM

As I said, Steve, legitimately. Bastard. (See what I did there? ;-) )

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:06 PM

One of the joys of Christmas-egg nog and your choice of spirits. Everything else is a plus.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:08 PM

Trouble is there are some people too thick to see the joke and will assume that you are really calling someone a bastard, Raedwulf. The legitimacy of their claims may bar sinister conversations. OK, OK, I have done with that line...

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:16 PM

More about the beer festival tomorrow boys and girls

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: gnu
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:16 PM

"I'll leave the trolls in peace....for now. :0) " Hahahahahahaa! That is fucking hilarious!!!! Ake, yer so fulla shit yer eyes are brown you troll of repeated renown. You've been at it for years yet you have the balls (sorry, it's just a saying) to post that? Sigh

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:21 PM

Come on gnu you know I never mock the afflicted, sleep...sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:22 PM

Thanks for seeing the idiocy, gnu.

Gnight, gnight.

I was in desperate need of a brandy due to lower intestine problems, Raggy. I cannot talk about good beer at the mo. You don't want any more details. Honest!

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:28 PM

You see, red wolf answers his own question. By assuming who you are addressing, you bring your prejudice to the fore about that person.

That's why three of us, all old mates, all sad singers etc decided to share a log in. We got the idea from Musket who had a patient he spoke to on the phone about his problem with his heart and at the end, the patient said "Thank you. It is nice to have a doctor concentrate on my heart complaint rather than speak to my wheel chair and associated visible problems."

It was after Keith A Hole of Hertford trawled threads in the music section to find things to use against Ian whilst at the same time, Jack the Sailor found a snippet against me in my other log in.

Fuck 'em. It's great to read Keith and Akenhateon squawk about multiple personality. I met Keith once at a folk club, before I ever became a Musket. Lovely to read his "I guarantee I am right when I say I have never met you."

Not that I asked for his autograph, you understand...

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:36 PM

I must say, I often find it difficult to spot who is who but I love the concept. There are loads of tossers who post with multiple names but nothing seems to be said about them. Yet 3 people post with the same name and the usual suspects crap themselves. Keep it up, Musket(s) but I doubt if anything will ever be done about the ludicrous situation that caused the tri-partite morph :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: gnu
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:48 PM

Oh... I remember the old days. When men were men and women were whatever the wanted to be and trolls were beaten unmercifully by 'the herd'. I recall one thread. It was a masterpiece of troll tromping. I must seek it out. It was fun, in a twisted way.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: gnu
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:52 PM

My favourite MC thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:53 PM

True..

It can be difficult to spot, even for moderators as the main reason we know each other is through NHS circles and the NHS Net VPN that we all have on our iPads polls out onto the Internet through proxy servers, or put another way, one of half a dozen static IP addresses.

If moderators ever start moderating, (and after Musket emailed me the contents of a PM he had recently from Joe Offer, I doubt there is hope..) then there would be no need for this.

I notice Ian uses Musket occasionally in music threads. I use my other log in for decent debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 06:05 PM

Even if the members of Team Musket have the same general outlook on life, there must surely be times when the views of one Musket contradict the views of another. As the owner of a unique Mudcat identity, I would be very wary of letting others put out statements which appear to come from me.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: gnu
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 06:07 PM

"... after Musket emailed me the contents of a PM he had recently from Joe Offer..."

Sigh... gnightgnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 06:20 PM

Yeah. Musket can be a bit of a twat at times. If someone is sad enough to notice, we contradict each other all the time. I find it hilarious.

Musket isn't a person so how anyone can be wary of statements is beyond my / our / Gaia comprehension. To be fair, we could have found a better name because one of us had already started using it and some assume it is him. Makes it all the funnier for me really.

Gnu. Don't let the bed bugs bite.

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 07:16 PM

Makes it all the funnier for me really.

There we have it, I think.

As I understand it, Team Musket is claimed to be a deliberate confusion as a defence against those who might attack the individuals. Any fault lies with others and the ruse would not be required if 'they' would only play within the rules.

Despite these lofty claims, I suggest that, in truth, it is no more than a silly jape, a schoolboy wheeze, a way of having a laugh at the expense of the rest of us. For myself, I am tired of it. It does Mudcat no favours. It is time that the members of Team Musket grew up and started acting like adults.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: gnu
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 07:30 PM

I re-read that thread I linked and it's fun... here is my fav post... says it all...

Subject: RE: Eminem Rules
From: Big Mick - PM
Date: 10 May 01 - 11:52 PM

I told y'all this worked better than arguin' with these folks!! You are all brilliant........I love this thread!!!

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: gnu
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 08:00 PM

When you eat your Smarties, do you eat the red ones last?

Subject: RE: BS: Sigh
From: gnu
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 08:04 PM

Smartie up!