Richard Digance

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:06 AM

Not as dangerous as the road towards censorship, in my opinion.

"Better, surely, to say that oppression should not be advocated on stages." I agree, but who is to decide what is "oppressive"? BE believes some of Vin Garbutt's material is oppressive, but others believe he is saying what needs to be said.

On the one hand, we have legal constraints to prevent the most extreme views being expressed. On the other, there are simple commercial constraints - if an artist's material is so contentious and unpopular that they fail to bring in an audience, they won't get booked. I don't even have a problem with an individual organiser deciding not to book an artist because they fundamentally disagree with the artist's message - that's an organiser's prerogative.

What I do object to is the idea that certain artists should be considered unsuitable to appear anywhere because some of their material expresses the "wrong" views. It is the idea that only "correct" political views should be allowed on stage which I find most dangerous.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:36 AM

in general,I agree with Howard,however if a performer were to sing asong in a folk club,and the song contained the sentiments/message send all immigrants back to where they came from I would walk out of the club [mid song],or alternatively complain to the organiser,and earhole the performer.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:12 AM

Instead of all of this IAFWAFIAWMWQ nonsense, I much prefer a line from Les Barker's Detritus - "Never argue with a fool for he is doing the same". I think that's very wise.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: foggers
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:53 AM

If we look at where the line should be drawn in terms of what views have a right to be aired and what counts as "oppressive" there are legal principles to help us; it is illegal to say things that may stir up racial hatred. This needs to be understood in the context of human rights.

In terms of human rights legislation, freedom of speech is a qualified right -i.e. it can be curtailed where it may infringe on the absolute rights of others. Absolute rights include the right to life, the right to freedom from torture, inhuman or degrading treatment; actively racist views (or sexist - and that can be against men OR against women) would constitute degradating treatment in the eyes of the law.

For all those other more grey areas, Howard Jones is right that organisers can make the decisions about who to book with an eye on the commercial implications of choosing someone with particularly contentious views. And Capt. Birdseye is also entirely right that individual audience members can express their dissent in a number of ways.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:59 AM

"Vin Garbutt does included oppressive and anti-feminist material"


Rubbish.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:26 AM

Come out Silas, show yourself...

And identify the song of which VG's critics and specify the words, then we might think you have a clue what the topic of debate is...

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:15 AM

I must say that I've never found Vin to be "anti-feminist". I don't think Pat would let him!

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:33 AM

'Even if the music is right-on, women on the wrong end of sexual harassment from those encouraged even in this day and age by backwoods beliefs that it is OK to behave so crassly will be offended and/or scared and not come back.'

So it's 'Sexual Harrassment' for a man to express an opinion that a feminist disagrees with - even if he has, by his own lights. a perfectly humanitarian and progressive reason for holding that opinion?   And what to we mean by 'Backwoods beliefs'? Anything that a left-wing or liberal university graduate disagrees with?

Are saying that there are certain matters on which men are forbidded to express an opinion altogether (unless it's the 'right' opinion)?

This sort of priggish nonsense is exactly why folk clubs are dying.

Sorry if I'm being 'predative(sic)'.

No, actually, I'm not...

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:13 AM

It's certainly sexual harassment when they sidle up and yap on in "do you come here often" stylee when a lone woman is actually trying to listen to the music. Even if they have an opinion worth listening to and something anywhere approaching sensible to say it is, at the very least, ill-mannered to voice it before the music stops. If these creeps don't know how to behave at a music venue it would do everyone a favour if they didn't go there in the first place.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:20 AM

'A festival mainstage is not the place to expound complex ideas which have such profound personal and political implications.'

I'm glad we've got that sorted out. I can't wait to hear Dick Gaughan's version of 'Dashing Away With A Smoothing Iron'.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:35 AM

Borchester,

Your last post makes for interesting reading. It reads to me like you're trying to tell us something about someone in particular. Who are we talking about here?

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:52 AM

Well Richard, I am assuming that Diane is referring to 'Little Innocents' when she spouts her posionios drivel. Some (and only some) songs on this album are anti - abortion. They are not anti - women, far from it.

Now, as for quoting words, that is a little more difficult as I have not listened to the album for several years, but I have seen Vin about six times during the last couple of years and he does not sing these songs any more as far as I am aware. I asked him to sing the siong 'Leslie'(Off the same album but about alcoholism, not abortion) but he could not remember the words!

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 10:09 AM

Sorry for coming back again, but I was just reminded of a story - a true one, as it happens.

I was at a gig about 15 years ago at a club in London. I was sitting down the front in the middle and a group of about 3 women came and sat to my right. As I went up the bar we exchanged pleasantries (as you do) and for the next half an hour or so there was one woman who I got chatting to in that rather incoherent way you do when you meet someone for the first time.

On my left was a group of people including a bloke who would not stop talking. Everyone was very polite about it but both I and my new acquaintance were both annoyed and exchanged glances to that effect. Eyes rolled, that sort of thing.

Now, a mate of mine was in the bar so I went out for a few minutes to have a drink and a chat with him. While I was there the talking bloke came out and went up to the bar. There was another bloke at the bar who it turned out was some sort of local villain. The talking bloke made some sort of nerdy folkie remark - and the other bloke smacked him in the mouth.

Talking Bloke retreated back inside with blood dripping down his mouth. After a couple of minutes I went back in myself. I made my way past the 3 women and sat down. I noticed that my new friend was staring at me.

After a moment the penny dropped - she thought it was me that had smacked Talking Bloke. I hastily (and quietly) reassured her that I hadn't and that he'd annoyed some local hard nut in the bar.

I ended up going out with her for the next 12 months.

Funny old world.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 10:15 AM

"It's certainly sexual harassment when they sidle up and yap on in "do you come here often" stylee when a lone woman is actually trying to listen to the music."

Nonsense.

Thirty years ago I did precisly that, and I have been happily married to that lady for the past twenty-seven years.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 10:17 AM

"It's certainly sexual harassment when they sidle up and yap on in "do you come here often" stylee when a lone woman is actually trying to listen to the music."

Nonsense.

Thirty years ago I did precisly that, and I have been happily married to that lady for the past twenty-seven years.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 10:30 AM

Well, good for you Silas, and my best wishes to you and to Mrs Silas and all the little Silases. Fair play to you.

Having said that, my point to Borchester was that he seemed to be trying to tell us something about someone and I wondered who it was. And if we're honest, we've all seen sad bastards trying to cop off with women who clearly aren't interested and it must at the least be bloody annoying for the woman concerned.

Clearly, Silas, not every man is possessed of the sort of sexual magnetism that you and I are clearly blessed with. It's such a burden sometimes, don't you find?

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 10:39 AM

Well, Chris, I have to confess that I am not exactly beating them off with a stick, but I am at least content with my lot!

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 10:51 AM

Silas, my dear fellow, why didn't you say earlier?

If you need a stick you can borrow mine.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Dave Earl
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 02:28 AM

Well I hope I didn't use the "Come here often" line but the last 4 ladies with whom I have had any sort of "thing" were all met at folk club/festival/event.

Some sort of common interest I suppose.

Dave

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Acorn4
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 03:28 AM

So that's why Morris Dancers have sticks - to beat off the hosts of predatory women!