BS: Older Drivers are Killers

Subject: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Bruce Martin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 04:51 AM

Five years ago my partner was killed in a road accident.A man of 83 crossed the central line and she was killed in a head on.The gentleman died five days later.Doctors said there was no signs of any illness as a cause of the accident. Five weeks ago a young lady who works in my office was killed when a 72 year old woman drove out of a side road without stopping onto a busy carriageway. A lady in another car was also killed.The young lady was 21.These are not isolated incidents. I have wrote to government, lobby groups and the local media. The government must bring in some type of a test in the U.K. for car drivers of this age. Would any of you get into a taxi or aircraft if the driver or pilot was in his 80's ?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: gnu
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:09 AM

"This age."? How old are you? When is the last time you were "tested"? How much money would you be willing to pay to be tested? How often do you think you should be tested? What criteria would you use for driving suspension?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:13 AM

Quote from DVLA Site

"Age is no bar to the holding of a licence. DVLA requires confirmation at age of 70 that no medical disability is present, thereafter a 3 year licence is issued subject to satisfactory completion of medical questions on the application form. Notwithstanding, as ageing progresses, a driver or his relative(s) may be aware that the combination of progressive loss of memory, impairment in concentration and reaction time with possible loss of confidence, suggest consideration be given to cease driving. Physical frailty is not per se a bar to the holding of a licence."

While I sympathise with your personal situation, it remains a fact that many more accidents are caused by young and inexperienced drivers, than by older drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: s&r
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:19 AM

It may be that reaction time slows with age; experience, anticipation and caution can make up for this. Impatience and starting your journey too late are in my opinion the biggest road hazards.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:57 AM

I sympathise most deeply with your feelings of loss, Bruce, and I understand your anger and frustration.

You undoubtedly feel that these two drivers should not have been on the road in charge of a vehicle, and in this you are most probably right. I would even agree that some kind of driver assessment, including a medical and an ability check for drivers over, say, 70 might be a good idea.

My reasons, however, are not the same as yours.

The two instances you give show two drivers who, through inattention to the task in hand, caused the deaths of other road users. This may however simply show that they were very bad drivers, and age may not have been a factor in this.

Statistically, the most dangerous group on the road are aged 18 - 25 years, while the safest are 50 - 70 years.

A check into the past history of these two might well show similar incidents over the course of their driving careers.

There are many very good octogenarian drivers out there, who have never been involved in an accident. Indeed, to take your example, some years ago there was a London cabbie, who was still qualifying annually at the age of 83.

Establishing stereotypes, by generalising from too little evidence, is a dangerous procedure, as it can lead to people being put into categories in which they do not belong, and many older drivers rely on their cars for mobility, especially those in areas where public transport is poor, or non-existent.

You lost your partner in an incident that was truly against the odds, due to the actions of a very bad driver, but I would suggest that, if the driver had been 21 years old (a much more likely event) you would not be suggesting a retest for all drivers of that age.

Now, I said above that I think a check for very elderly drivers might be a good idea. My reasons for that are as follows.

1. It would point up the physical ability of the driver, allowing those who no longer have the strength to handle steering, or braking effectively to be removed from the road.

2. It would give information on bad driving habits, deficiencies in attention or attitude, and other factors, which could be remedied before allowing further driving to continue.

The thing is though, that similar testing would probably be just as useful for drivers aged 25, or 35, or.........

Once again, please accept my deepest sympathy

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:08 AM

All of the above, plus the below, from national statistics;
Although they walk less than people in younger age groups, older people are considerably more likely to be killed, as pedestrians, in a road accident. People aged 70 and over walked on average nearly a third less far than the population as a whole in 2002. However, 3.7 per 100,000 population aged 70 and over were killed as pedestrians in road accidents, compared with a rate of 1.3 per 100,000 for the population as a whole.

So the elderly are more likely to be killed by their younger compatriots if they are making a journey out of a vehicle!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:12 AM

as a cyclist;
i'd support compulsary regular refresher training & re-testing
[eg. every 5 years]
for all drivers..

and tougher banning penalties for convicted careless drivers.

.. and also a road users training/testing/licence system for cyclists
and electric disability buggy users..

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:22 AM

When I was a Police Officer, I had to deal with accidents and found that the 'majority accident' age group was the 17-25's....yes there were some serious faults made by the older generation but if we start changing the rules for them then we must also perhaps raise the age limit for young drivers...where does it stop?.
Sorry for the problems you have had but the age thing is perhaps more coincidence than absolute reality.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:38 AM

Cyclists are a bit like some of the users of this website, they have too much to say, and are often unecessarily aggressive. For the free use of the roads and/or of the Mudcat a little more gratitude and humility would seem to be in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Bruce Martin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:42 AM

The officer from Traffic Branch who dealt with me at the time of the death said that it was the third fatal accident he had dealt with in six months involving drivers over seventy. I have no reason to disbelieve him. Yes younger drivers are a serious threat on our roads and glad to see the police target this group daily. When you see a boy racer you tend to know what to expect. Insurance companies make it difficult for them, police media campaigns focus on them and the point system nails them, but there is nothing to deal with the older drivers.Since the accident I tend to be more aware of older drivers and their lack of use of indicators and junction positioning.Gnu, I am 38 a father of two young children who ask why they don't have a mother. I hold an advanced licence in both car and motorcycle. I would be willing to be tested as often as I would be required.As to the criteria I would you use for driving suspension, reaction times and control I feel would be important. Hope you never live my postion in life. Many thanks to the rest of you for understanding and kindness.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:48 AM

Two killed yesterday in Northern Ireland. 74 year old lady driver was the cause. You should phone the families gnu of 28 year old and the 17 year old and mouth off to them.Sure they would like to hear from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:54 AM

I can only endorse every word that Don T wrote. There are drivers of eighty, who drive safely and there are drivers of thirty who never will. Statistics would probably identify young male drivers as the most dangerous on the road. However, we are all well aware that neither age nor gender are any guarantee that someone will drive a certain way.
The worst traffic hooligans whom I have encountered in recent years have usually been wealthy men between thirty and sixty on the German Autobahns. Many of these yobs should never be allowed out on anything more dangerous than a bicycle.
I am very sorry to hear of your loss Bruce. It is a tragic coincidence though. Older drivers have killed people, but they still remain one of the safest sections of society to have behind the wheel of a car.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:27 AM

GUEST 06.38pm - Are you a cyclist ? I presume you are NOT a mudcat member (most of us are more or less polite) I ride a pushbike fairly
regularly and have problems all the time with totally thoughtless drivers , who seem never to even SEE a cyclist , let alone accept that
we have any right to be on the road .
That said , I have no time for the fools on bikes who ride on pavements , ignore traffic lights , and dont have any lights at night .

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:51 AM

Alanabit. I've never had a problem on german autobahns. As long as you move over after overtaking you have no problem. They can't understand our lazy middle lane driving, and neither should they. I don't either!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:48 AM

Guest 07:51 (is your name a secret?) I have been driving on the Autobahn for over twenty years and it is something I have to do regrettably often for my work. No, I do not believe in staying in the middle lane unless I am overtaking. Neither do I. What I am talking about, is the yobs who drive a metre from your bumper, when you are overtaking a line of lorries at about 120 km/h or more. You very often have them threatening your life (and that of your kids) even when you are overtaking, while keeping your distance from the car in front of you. The mentality of these bits of human filth is that they have the right to tailgate the driver in front of you. Do you want these assholes on the road?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:49 AM

How many road accident resulting in deaths are caused by drivers between the ages of 18-24??

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:02 AM

It is a problem. Five years ago, my father-in-law gave up driving because of slowed response time and age-induced macular degeneration (since stabilized). My mother-in-law (87) will NOT admit to lessened capacity, but fortunately she hasn't driven at night for many years.

I'm soon to be 61, my wife is 63. We're both going to take refresher courses the next time they're offered.

I think that after, say, 75 or whenever in the opinion of a license examiner your reflexes or other physical or mental functioning has slowed down you should be re-examined and if necessary given a restricted license (of it should be removed entirely). Re-testing should be mandatory every three years -- and if you stop or are stopped driving free public transportation should be made available.

(As a paranthetical note, the best driving course I ever had was an informal one-on-one by a pursuit driver for the Ohio State Police. He taught me things I never knew could be done -- legal, and which enhance safety at any speed (I never drove over 110 mph on the course). The second best was a cross-country driving course taught by the US Army -- my driver's education classed in high school were a joke.)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:19 AM

This fall I was forced off the road by a 104 year old driver.
This May he will be 105.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:42 AM

In the UK a driver over 70 causing a motor accident to which the Police have been caused is likely to have to to attend court in order that their ability to continue driving can be assessed. Most of the time they are not given the option to plead guilty and get fined and/or points on their license. I dealt with these cases regularly as a motor injury claims negotiator, arranging for legal representation for these peole. Most of the time the solicitor would try and persuade the driver to voluntarily give up the license and accept that they were no longer fit to drive. The company I worked for tailored motor policies for the over 60s, and made a modest profit from the motor account. We wouldn't touch drivers under 25 - that group was considered too risky - and some of the worse cases I had to deal with were caused by young drivers, who then tried to put the blame onto our Insured.

Any one of us could be the cause of a fatal accident. Driving when tired, losing attention because World War Three has broken out between your kids in the back seat and just plain old carelessness can make killers of us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:08 AM

I don't think comparing the accident rates of young to elderly drivers is a valid one. Younger drivers' accidents are most often caused by willful disregard as opposed to physical or mental deficiency due to age.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:24 AM

So Bobad, at what age do YOU consider a man to be physically or mentally unfit?

Bear in mind the fact that many of the world's acknowledged geniuses did their best work in their latter years.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: gnu
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:29 AM

Well... excuse me for asking some valid questions. Your implication that I have no "understaning and kindness" precludes intelligent discussion. Your loss does sadden me. However, I assumed you were soliciting support, not sympathy.

This is me leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:38 AM

Motor vehicle accidents are caused by:

1) Drunk (or maybe stoned) drivers.

2) Drivers talking on hand-held cell phones while driving.

3) Younger drivers without sufficient experience; especially when the car is full of their friends.

4) Young or middle-aged male drivers trying to prove that their balls are bigger than the other guy's.

5) Moms whose children in the back seat demand attention while they're driving.

6) And older drivers whose vision, reflexes, etc., are shot. No argument there. But why single out one of those groups as the bad guys?

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:06 AM

Bruce,

In your second post you quoted the officer as follows:- "The officer from Traffic Branch who dealt with me at the time of the death said that it was the third fatal accident he had dealt with in six months involving drivers over seventy. I have no reason to disbelieve him."

Any traffic policeman might expect to deal with fatal accidents on a very regular basis, and a remark of that nature without comparison to other age groups is essentially meaningless, and unhelpful.

You are entitled to blame the driver responsible for your loss, but unless you have evidence to link older drivers to a high proportion of deaths, in relation to their numbers, your basic premise is untenable.

Insurance companies sell comprehensive policies to older drivers at premiums that would not buy third party for a twenty five year old, and believe me insurance underwriters do not make mistakes in calculating odds.

You are hurting now, for yourself and your children, but trust me, your hurt will not be lessened by bitterness against the thousands of good older drivers who had nothing to do with your loss.

I know, from personal experience, that there are times when we just want to lash out at someone to relieve our feelings. In my experience, it never helps.

I wish there were something I could do to reduce the pain, but only time can do that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:22 AM

"So Bobad, at what age do YOU consider a man to be physically or mentally unfit?"

Don, It's not up to me to make the call that someone is not physically or mentally fit to be operating a motor vehicle, the responsibility for this assessment is up to the person's physician and a serious one it is as the physician can be held liable if it can be shown that he knew a person shouldn't have been driving yet neglected to have his license revoked.

This is an ongoing problem in the rural area in which I live as a car is a necessity and the revocation of one's driver's permit usually means the end of your living in your own home. My physician is also a personal friend and he often speaks of the battles he wages in trying to have elderly drivers' permits revoked.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:20 PM

Despite regular visits to her physician, my elderly mother was deemed physically and mentally fit to drive. The good doctor had obviously never been a passenger in a vehicle, with her at the wheel.

Fortunately for some on the road here in BC, we have a provision under the motor vehicle act which allows family members and I believe others, in confidence, to report in writing concerns about elderly drivers and request a driving test. As a result, my brother and I were relieved to finally get our 80+ year old mother off the road and do it with anonymity.

While its a lot more work for us and initially she was depressed, we've still managed to keep her and her dog in her own home and the cost to her, of maintaining and running a vehicle, more than covers a few hours a week extra companionship and help, beyond my brother's and mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:27 PM

Now if I could only get my hands on the SOB who talked her in to spending $500+ bucks to have her gutters cleaned on her little mobile home......

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:27 PM

"accept that we have any right to be on the road"

Didn't your mother teach you to keep your toys in the yard...   Bike paths are absolutely the way to go, cause they have NO business being on the street with motor-vehicles... or on the sidewalk with pedestrians...

When Ralph Nader was pushing for the seat-belt as mandatory gear in every car, he also invented (IIRC) a key pad system to help deter unsafe and infirm drivers... Like the old hand held game "Einstein" a key pad in the dash, when you tried to start the car would 'play' a sequence of a handful of numbers.... If you wanted your car to start, you had to play it back exactly as it was presented to you... (You may have been given 2 tries) Once you failed, your cars ignition would lock-itself-out for a certain time period. This would cut way down on the number of drunks/stoned/emotionally excited (Don't drive angry) or infirm people on the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 01:38 PM

On the other hand, when his doctor flagged my 80+ year old father-in-law as a possible risk, he lost his driver's licence after failing his driver's test, mainly because he did not do proper shoulder checks when changing lanes.

We encouraged him to practice and try the test again using both the side mirrors and physically checking over his shoulder and he did and had his licence was reinstated.

Age never seemed to affect his driving ability, just an ingrained bad habit, which he managed to change and we never felt that anyone was at greater risk for him being on the road, despite his age or the fact that he also had some physicial handicaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 01:45 PM

Bike paths ... good idea CH, I agree with you on keeping bikes off the road, and along with skateboarders ... cemetaries are good places to ride a bike in.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bert
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 02:11 PM

Bike paths, a good idea, they have some here in Colorado Springs. Now how do we keep the cars off of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Amos
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 02:18 PM

I tried to fire up a USB 2.0 external hard disk using an older driver. Crashed all to hellangone. Had to reboot and re-download the right driver.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Arkie
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 02:48 PM

In this little town of 2800 people we have aggressive, rude drivers of every age.   As for older drivers being particularly dangerous we have had several involved in near fatal accidents. Before those accidents those drivers had been involved in minor scrapes and had amply demostrated they should no longer be behind a wheel. I have a very close friend who suceeded in persuading his father to give up driving.   Some accidents involving older drivers could be avoided and are avoided by the driver or close family members reading the signs and realizing that a person should not be at the wheel of a motor vehicle.   The same could be said of younger drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bert
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 03:25 PM

It takes two vehicles to have an accident. Just a couple of weeks ago I (age 67) had a driver come at me who was on the wrong side of the road. It was a man, I guess in his twenties. I just pulled over and let him pass.

I have been looking on the web to find statistics on traffic accidents but couldn't find any that listed accidents by the driver at fault. General statistics seem to point to high accident rates by age which starts to decline at ages around the mid forties and doesn't pick up again until the late sixties.

I guess I should be looking at taking a driving course pretty soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 03:34 PM

younger drivers are a serious threat on our roads and glad to see the police target this group daily. When you see a boy racer you tend to know what to expect.

Surely what the police would be doing here would be focussing their attention on people who are driving too fast and aggressively? It wouldn't normally be possible,until they were stopped, to tell whether the driver was a boy-racer, a middle-aged bloke with a mid-life crisis, a woman with severe PMT, or a old person who'd lost his or her marbles.

My point is, what matters isn't who you are, or what category you fall into, it's what you do. (And about the worst common crime on the road is tailgating. Anyone of any age who drives too close to a car in front, meaning a speed where a collision would occur if the car in front ran into a block of concrete lying in the road, deserves to lose their licence for life.)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 04:58 PM

Bruce Martin told us:


The officer from Traffic Branch who dealt with me at the time of the death said that it was the third fatal accident he had dealt with in six months involving drivers over seventy.

That comment tells us nothing!

First, "involving" doesn't mean "caused by".

We need to know how many fatal accidents in toto he saw during that period. You can't have a meaningful statistical result without a large enough sample. If the sample is too small, the flukes and freak accidents and one-time circumstances can shoot your results all kerflooey. If, for example, he only saw four fatal accidents, then even three which we might assume were caused by drivers over 70 could be a fluke. If he saw sixty, three is not a huge percentage.

Supposing it's a large enough sample to be meaningful, you then need to know how the accident causes were distributed. My guess is that the causes would be overrepresented in the late-childhood (15-18) and early adulthood (19-25) groups.

As I say, the officer's comment, at least as reported, is meaningless.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:10 PM

In the interest of full disclosure, I should perhaps tell everyone that I just turned 75.

I believe I am a safer driver now than when I was in the 25-40 range. (I start that at 25 because that's when I learned to drive.)

My eyesight without glasses was lousy then, and it's lousy now. But I did and do have glasses that correct very well. I assume that my reactions are not as fast as in that period of my life; true enough. But my attitude toward driving is much more settled now than then, and I don't take some chances now that I did then. I don't drive as fast.   However, I'm not the kind of a slow driver you sometimes see in older drivers who makes problems by his slow speeds in traffic.

Whether this makes you think of me as a poster child for the no-older-drivers position or the opposite (which I adopt) is neither here nor there, because generalities are not ruled by particular cases. But I thought everyone was entitled to this look into the source and (in?)validity of my previous post.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:22 PM

Good one Amos !

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:22 PM

Age has nothing to do with it - except in cases where dementia, Alzheimers or some other physical ailment is involved. There are also physical and mental conditions that should prohibit younger drivers from getting licenses as well.

I was always taught that driving is a privelage, not a right. That privelage can be taken away and I think that retests should be mandatory for all drivers. Yes it will cost money and time, but if you wish to have a license - you pay for it.

I think restrictions against drunk drivers should be harsher. First offense for being behind the wheel of a car while drunk should be mandatory lose of license even if there wasn't an accident. The potential is too risky.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:39 PM

For every story about an older driver being a problem, there is one about one who does fine...and as has been noted, many MORE about careless young drivers. That being said, I am ready and willing to begin being tested every 2-3 years now that I am in my 60s. I know that 'some' older folks stretch it too long, and I don't want to be one of them.

My mother drove for 55 years with NO accidents, until she was 77...and a few years ago I shared driving from Maryland to Kansas & back with a man who was 88! He was amazing, alert and careful, and lived to be 98.
...maybe I've got a few years left.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,drive 'em out
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:23 PM

Bad & dangerous drivers of all ages need culling;

Minimum age should be raised to at least 18.

[exceptions could possibly be made for rigorously tested special licences for 17 year olds
who can prove their job depends on driving need]

Lifetime bans should be more readily imposed for 1st serious driving offense,
and also for persistent serial medium category offenders.

Maximum age should be negotiable for each individual over statutory retirement age,
dependent on regular medical competance checkups and driving skills retests.

High performance vehicles should be restricted to over 25 year olds
only after passing advanced driving course.

Car ownership should be restricted to no more than 2 per household.

Cyclists should be trained and tested, and not allowed on roads without
a valid license and roadworthy bicycle.

Motorcyclists should be legally enforced to permanently weld a sidecar
to every motorbike and only be allowed on the road
with the mother-in-law as a passenger.

fat rich middleaged Harley owners need a serious talking to about self image and fashion style..


..etc..etc..etc..


ok, some of that was not entirely serious, but I meant most of it !

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:36 PM

First offense for being behind the wheel of a car while drunk should be mandatory lose of license even if there wasn't an accident.

In the UK that is the case. You lose your licence automatically for 12 months if you try to drive when over the limit, and you are spotted. The fact that there might not have been any kind of accident or driving error doesn't alter that. You might just have been stopped because you had a rear light which was a bit dim. You can get fined or jailed as well, dependimng how far over the limit you are.

Here's a page with deatils about the penalties and so forth. The limit? Two pints of beer will likely put you over it.

All seems reasonable enough to me. They're only trying to keep us from killing ourselves and other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:40 PM

That same law is in effect in Canada. However, that is no assurance that the newly-suspended driver with a DUI (driving [while] under the influence) doesn't then drive without a license.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:41 PM

" Maximum age should be negotiable for each individual"
Then so should minimum age...

>
" Cyclists should be trained and tested, and not allowed on roads without"
Childrens toys have no business on the roads at all....

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:45 PM

caught driving without a license -> Prison

caught driving drunk -> even more Prison


caught drunk driving without a licence -> twice as much and even more Prison

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:48 PM

..and what out of interest are the statistics for accidents
caused by heart attacks/strokes while in charge of a vehicle..

a) car drivers ?

b) cyclists ?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Robert Ellis
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:56 PM

79 year old man just killed three hours ago in Broughshane Ulster. drove out of driveway of his home onto road without stopping, three people in passing car in hospital, two on danger list. So sad thoughts with all of them

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:59 PM

I saw a cartoon many years ago which had an elderly couple in a brand new expensive car and a young couple in an old and possibly un-roadworthy banger both shaking their fists at each other and demanding that "These old crocks should be kept off the road!"

I have been driving for 37 years now - I'm not, I hope, a worse driver, for my "advancing years" and experience but, I'm certainly a more scared one with the agressive, driving that I find particularly from younger men who seem to have no respect for speed limits, mobile phone use or even the most basic road safety. (sorry being a grumpy old woman doesn't mean I haven't just cause)
However, might I make one plea - that maybe there should be an offence for driving TOO slowly in reasonable driving conditions thereby causing extremely frustrated drivers to take possibly uncharacteristic risks.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Royston Robbie
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:13 PM

Older drivers are a total menace on our roads. They drive below the speed limits causing many to overtake with risks.Would put more faith in younger drivers anyday. Old coddgers have no place on our roads full stop.Take them them off at 65, just like the workplace.Talk to traffic cops about them, my brother in law is one and what he has told me said enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:17 PM

A mom and her teenage daughter were killed in a road rage incident here in Texas today. It seems they were in the left lane and a 25 year old male wanted to get past them. They didn't move fast enough for him so he tailgaited them and eventually bumped them hard enough to send them into the other lane of traffic where they had a head on collision. Two people killed just because someone thought they weren't driving fast enough. The 25 year old has been arrested.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:27 PM

gee, Royston Robbie...we wouldn't want to mak any generalizations, would we?
"They" do NOT all " ...drive below the speed limits.."....I certainly don't, and to hear you tell it, I should have quit driving last year.

I notice you didn't specify YOUR age....let me know if you still feel this way when you are 64.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Royston Robbie
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:51 PM

47 and will know when to throw to towel in and admitt my age, not grab onto the top of my car door with both hands and get out on the swing of it.Also their parking, no use of trafficators and taking the wrong lane at every road junction. Yes they feature high on my list of road murders. If they face court by the way, it's said but they held a clean licence for over 50 years and get a smile and a nice bye bye from the judge.Makes me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:33 PM

never mind....you are judging the rest by the problems of the few. It is the same with most people who like to say 'they' and color everyone in a certain category as 'guilty'.

"All Indians walk in single file....I know, because I saw an Indian once and he was walking single file."

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:34 PM

The speed limit is just that - the top speed for that particular road. It is not the mandatory speed that vehicles should travel at.

There are occasions such as bad weather conditions, congested roads due to parking and in areas where children play when it would be foolhardy, if not criminal, to drive at the limit for the road. In the area I used to live I always drove with great caution on the road leading into mine. Paid dividends one day when a three year old ran aout from between parked cars into my path. If I had been driving at the limit, 30mph, it is highly likely that that child would be dead now. Age and experience have taught me that children don't always think about the dangers of the road and that not all parents take the best care to keep tiny children from playing near roads. Yet the number of young men who drove way over the limit on that particular road never ceased to amaze me.

Maybe retesting every three years for all drivers would be the way forward. I bet that the majority of us have picked up bad driving habits over the years. I never trust anyone who reckons that they are good drivers - it's too easy to be over confident and that can also lead to accidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:02 AM

"My point is, what matters isn't who you are, or what category you fall into, it's what you do. (And about the worst common crime on the road is tailgating. Anyone of any age who drives too close to a car in front, meaning a speed where a collision would occur if the car in front ran into a block of concrete lying in the road, deserves to lose their licence for life.)" (McGrath of Harlow)

That is probably the most telling comment I have seen here. We all make mistakes. But it is the arrogant, "I know better than you," type of driving that kills people the most frequently.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Denis More
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:34 AM

Let's look at the real reason why there is so much slaughter on the roads. Speed, lack of experience,drink or drugs used. older unfit drivers, careless or wreckless attitude. And all of these occur simply because there is no deterrent when it comes to sentences at the courts. How many times do you read of a drunk driver or a Joyrider killing someone and getting off or max, a few months in prison. In my local newspaper a well known guy was up in court for being caught drunk driving, no insurance, a banned driver and leaving the scene of an accident. He got six months in prison suspended for two years. Another was caught driving without insurance, he was fined 40.00 ! Cheaper than paying for insurance I'd say. Courts need to send out a clear message and until they do it will be slaughter. Do agree with the point of older drivers being tested at 65 and then every two years.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:59 AM

Thoughts

People retire at 65 in the UK, and then have to live on a reduced income, made worse by successive governments keeping their pensions non index linked.
Retaking a driving test over 65 would no doubt be mandatory, but it is equally unlikely to be free of charge. Not good news for people on a low fixed income.
The UK government derives vast sums of money from Road Tax, Excise duty on fuels, and income from speeding fines. Is it likely that they would fund these mandatory tests, even though they rake in vast sums of money from drivers? Not very likely one thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 06:04 AM

Royston Robbie, your comments on older drivers are so patently ludicrous as to merit no consideration. I suspect that they say more about your attitudes as a driver, than about those you so arrogantly deride.

I suspect that you belong to that dangerous breed of middle aged tailgaters (fortunately a minority), who believe that they have a God given right to proceed unhindered by other road users, regardless of conditions, common sense, or safety.

In the forty years that I have held a CLEAN driving license, I have had two accidents. In both cases I was rear ended by people who seem to share your contempt for anyone who obeys speed limits.

My eyes are good, I am physically fit, and I had my reflexes tested three years ago, the results showing above average (not above average for my age, just above average). I am almost 65.

I do not travel everywhere with a half mile tail of frustrated motorists, even when towing my caravan, and have never occupied an overtaking lane for one second more than was necessary for safety.

Pray tell me on what possible grounds you would demand that I be retested before being allowed to continue driving?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 08:27 AM

My Dad had his first ever accident at the age of 87. He was on his way to see my mother, who was terminally ill in hospital, when a 4x4 in front stopped suddenly and he ran into the back. His licence was taken away after that and he never drove again.
In my father's defence I have to say that I was often a passenger in his car and never once felt unsafe; he was a careful and considerate driver.
The fact is that there are far too many cars on the road - everyone, including family pets, now have a car! And far too many of these drivers think that only they have a right to be on the road and only their careless, selfish and eccentric driving style is acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Mo the caller
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:05 AM

I am 62. My car has been damaged twice in the last few years. Once in slow, stop-start traffic by young lad "sorry, I dropped my cigarette" who ran into the back of me.
The other time we were in a house, heard a bang, and found that my parked car had been hit so hard that it was undriveable. We invited the driver (in his seventies I'd guess) into the house to take his details, it became obvious the he was more confused than just from the bump. He had difficulty remembering his present address. We fetched his wife, who said he had had other accidents recently.
Afterwards I felt concerned enough to give the police the details, his insurance company also knows what is happening but he is still seen driving in the area.
It can be hard to know when to give up. People who suffer heart problems can be confused at times, OK others.
And being without a car when too old to walk to the shops is not good.
Maybe the supermarkets could work out some scheme to deliver cheaply to all the OAPs in certain area on a particular day.
My car is insured by Saga, who stress the safety of careful older drivers, maybe my renewal form should have some questions, or suggestions as to the alternatives to driving, when the time comes to stop.
The UK system where your own GP signs the form to say you are fit to drive is dodgy. It would damage his relationship with you and he knows how you need to drive.
Dont know the answer, maybe we should all ride bikes and save the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:02 AM

It is easy to look at someone of advanced years and make assumptions. Not everyone over the age of 65 has Alzheimers or dementia.   Most still have all their motor skills.   

There is a great deal of bigotry concerning age, and most of it comes from people who have not reached that stage in their life. All bigotry comes from not understanding something that is different from the viewers lifestyle.   Skin color, sex, religion and age are all targets for descrimination. People make assumptions and then try to find sterotypes that fit the image.   

A person with Alzheimers should not be behind the wheel - but neither should a 25 year old with very poor vision or impaired motor skills. Look at the cause, not the carrier.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: tarheel
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:42 AM

Well bruce,sorry to hear about your loss due to an elderly driver,but as an (almost elderly driver now...69)there is an ole song by the late Charlie Poole that goes..."so remember while you're young, old age to you will come,then you'll be Old and Grey, and only in the way!"
it's true too,bruce...
tar

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: nutty
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 12:08 PM

I am a driver on a restricted license. I have to re-apply every 3 years and I could have my license withdrawn at any time, for any misdemeanour.

My crime is that I drive constantly under the influence of drugs ....in my case insulin as I am a diabetic.

I also have restrictions placed on me with regard to the type and size of vehicles that I am allowed to drive.

In all other respects I am a very competent driver. Even now , although retired, I cover approx 12,000 miles a year, have held a license for over 30 years and have never caused an accident.

I would maintain that I am far safer than many many other drivers, particularly those who knowingly drive while their senses are impaired by drugs and/or alcohol.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Mrs Trellis
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 01:44 PM

Pancreatic junkie :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 01:54 PM

Nutty - You are restricted because of insulin ? Details please. Have you passed out due to glucose levels ?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 02:32 PM

Hi nutty - I have similar restrictions due to medication: I only have a one year licence now (renewable if my condition remains stable). It's a bit of a pisser really - I had some very cool categories on my licence (minibus, 3.5 tonne truck with trailer, that sort of thing) that got retracted too. I have never caused an accident in 12 years of driving. And they took away my lovely Norn Iron licence too and made me have an auld UK one instead, gah!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 02:36 PM

(p.s. Wesley S - it's standard in the UK for people on certain medications or who have certain illnesses to have their licences restricted (or indeed revoked entirely: http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/dmed1.htm)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Fibs Fan
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 03:04 PM

You'll be OK for Mouth to Mouth resuscitation round here FM

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 04:32 PM

Childrens toys have no business on the roads at all....

That'd do for motor cars then...

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:16 PM

To say that a slow driver caused someone to pass is like saying that the weather caused the accident.

Studies have shown that inattention causes most accidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Naemanson
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:35 PM

My first thought when I saw this thread is that the initial poster left off a word. He should have written, "Older Drivers are Killers TOO."

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 09:55 AM

gee, thanks guest of 30 Dec 05 - 03:04 PM :)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Tootler
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 04:56 PM

They drive below the speed limits causing many to overtake with risks

I take it, Royston Robbie, you include the idiot in a BMW who passed me at at least 60 on a road where 50 was probably too fast, or the pratt who overtook on a bend at night when I was doing 40 because of restricted vision ahead. Or many other similar incidents too numerous to mention.

It isn't the older driver driving carefully at a speed he or she judges to be safe that is at fault but the driver overtaking with risks who is at fault and is the cause of the accident when it happens. If you are one of these, you are not fit to be on the road whatever your age.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Joybell
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 05:17 PM

I was wondering when the "slow drivers cause accidents!" idea would show itself here. It's a common statement here in Aus. where you are constantly tailgated, abused, and overtaken while driving at the speed limit. Not allowed into a right turn lane when you need one.
I drive on country roads - narrow, winding, no clear views ahead, and the speed at which I'm overtaken every time I drive takes my breath away. I'm doing 100 kms. (the speed limit) so I guess I'm one of those elderly slow drivers! Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 07:56 PM

Understanding and thoughts with you right now Bruce. That was a terrible experience you have lived.Focus on the kids and get smiling again for their sake. The roads would be a lot safer if judges made examples of ALL drivers. Take care friend and the two kids need you. remember that and honour your partners memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 09:39 PM

Here in Austrlia they have on the news road deaths/accidents and most of them are caused by YOUNG PEOPLE.

only 25% of road accidents are caused by 'old' people and that means 75% of accidents are caused by young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 09:48 PM

Oh I'm a cyclist in Scotland and I think that there are two types of people that are bad drivers, men and women espialally men.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 04:17 PM

Too many men get the idea that their car is an extension of their dick. Road rage is caused by testosterone poisoning; a condition that over rides common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 04:33 PM

A driver who blames a slow driver for making them do something crazy, such as overtaking in a dangerous way, is a bit like a rapist who says it's all the fault of the way the girl was dressed.

Subject: So are younger drivers.
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 05:43 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Kaleea
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 06:54 PM

It would be illuminating to see actual statistics on the agges of drivers who are found to cause accidents. I have noticed that the age group which seems most costly to insure is the teen aged to early 20's male. However, it was an old man in an old pickup who broadsided & thus killed my little brother 20some years back.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Naemanson
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 07:27 PM

I think we all know of an accident caused by an older driver. However we also know of those caused by younger drivers. It is a tragedy but it is fact. CARS are dangerous! It takes attention to detail to operate dangerous machinery. Those who loose that attention will have accidents. Loss of attention can be caused by age or by "knowing" that you can control the machine by operating it in your own fashion. Thus some people drive dangerously because they believe they are superb drivers. Accidents are caused by a number of elements. You can be the world's best driver and one second of distraction will kill you or somebody else. Stephen King was seriously injured by a guy who was focused on his dog instead of on the road. It was a young guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 07:29 PM

But it was an old dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 07:30 PM

This thread is singularly lacking in statistics/facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 08:58 PM

Indications were that King was walking on the wrong side of the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 09:28 PM

oh, Joybelle!!...about that problem of being overtaken while driving at the posted speed....you mean you really didn't know that the number on the sign is the MINIMUM? All the other drivers seem to know it...even here in the USA!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 08:10 PM

The other important thing to recognise is that _all_ speed limits are optional and only apply to someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: JennieG
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 12:58 AM

My husband maintains that many drivers (not pointing the finger at anyone here!) can't read the number on the speed sign properly. They think it's a game where you double it and add ten.

Cheers
JennieG who was caught by a fixed speed camera last year.....bummer! Remind me to tell you the story sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jonm
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 08:48 AM

To all those who, like myself, have lost people they cared about through the carelessness and incompetence of others, you have my deepest sympathy and best wishes for a hopeful future.

All accidents are caused by mistakes.

Both the very young and the very old, in driving terms, can make the mistake of overestimating their abilities relative to the conditions. Retesting and retraining seem to be viable options where you have exceeded your own personal limits.

Some people make the mistake of underestimating the effect other distractions (phones, cigarettes, alcohol etc.) can have on their ability to drive safely. As above or punishment through a ban where an offence has been committed.

Where a mistake has been made, someone must undergo some form of inconvenience from which they emerge a better driver, otherwise it will always be an accident which happens to someone else until it's too late. Not Draconian punishment, just re-education. Wouldn't it be better if those who were unfit to drive made the decision for themselves? Perhaps as a result of a spell in a simulator?

Drink-driving advertising campaigns always target the "you just caused a horrific accident" viewpoint. I would recommend the "I was stopped for a lightbulb, tested and lost my licence and my job as a result" as a better deterrent for the hardened drink-driver.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 10:43 AM

McGrath said: A driver who blames a slow driver for making them do something crazy, such as overtaking in a dangerous way, is a bit like a rapist who says it's all the fault of the way the girl was dressed.

Or the case in Maine I read about where a deer hunter blew away a housewife who was outside her house hanging up laundry, and the hunter was acquitted of manslaughter on the basis that the victim was wearing white gloves, and so brought it on herself because everyone knows that deer hunters will shoot at any flash of white, and if you wear white outside in deer season, it's your own fault if you get shot...

I swear I am not making this up. At least, that's the way I read it.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:01 AM

Old people who insist on driving past the age of 50 should be re-tested every few years, or shot on sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:25 AM

GUEST,Royston Robbie - "Take them them off at 65, just like the workplace."

A story for you, it doesn't concern driving but flying. Lord Brabazon was the first person to be given a Pilots Licence in the UK, Licence No.2 went to an Army Major. The rules at the time followed what you prescribe, the licence had to be relinguished on achieving the age of 65. As this major's 65th birthday approached he tried in vain to keep his licence, he was fully fit and capable, but red tape prevailed. The day before his 65th birthday he went down to the airfield, took off in his Auster and then proceeded to fly under bridges on the river Thames. He was arrested on landing, his only comment was that he had always wanted to do it and that if he was going to lose his licence he might as well lose it for a valid reason, not purely because some civil servant decided so.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:58 AM

Peter, you are right. That was so shameful. Too many deer hunters on the jury.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 01:31 PM

Indications were that King was walking on the wrong side of the road.

So he couldn't jump out of the way of an oncoming car? My analogy about rape and the victim's clothing applies here too. In both cases the fact that the victim might have been doing something a bit stupid doesn't take the blame off the perpetrator.

A driver has a duty to watch out for people on the road, whichever way they are looking, and to avoid running them down.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Naemanson
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 09:39 PM

I remember the deer hunting accident too. Happened in or near Bangor didn't it? What a shame. The wierd part is that nobody said, "Why don't we increase the training requirements for hunters?" And the hunters in the state, at least the vocal ones, seemed to line up with the idiot who killed the woman.

Many years ago, long before the requirement to wear international orange while hunting, my father spent a week in Washington County, Maine, deer hunting with a friend who wore white pants in the woods. No accidents and the guy was not shot. Either that says something for the other hunters or he was lucky enough not to be seen. I have seen photos and a home movie of that trip and sure enough the guy is wearing white.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: HuwG
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 10:15 PM

*All* drivers are potential killers. From the pensioner shaking with Parkinson's Disease, who last had an eye test in 1976 and whose lens prescription was hopelessly inadequate (a recent case which appeared in the local paper), to the juvenile imbecile who nearly ran me down in Tesco's car park while gabbling on his mobile phone.

It is unfortunately a part of anyone's character to blame the other driver for the crunch. Even the police advice is "make no admission of responsibility". The attitude has gone so far as to make some mothers deliberately purchase heavy SUV's for the school run, on the grounds that should there be a collision, the other car is more likely to be damaged and its occupants more likely to be injured than her own precious offspring. This apparently selfish attitude is justified by the assertion that the other drivers on the road are more likely to cause the accident.

Incidentally, my own car was written off on November 21st last year. It was parked on the road outside my house. I live on a steep hill; the gradient, restricted visibility and propensity of the road to ice up have led the County Council to declare the road "Access Only". However, this does not stop many drivers using the street as a "rat run" to get round congestion on the main road. One learner driver losing control going downhill and making the fatal mistake of hitting the brakes.

I have to forgive the unfortunate L-Driver. I did tell her husband, "Lucky my car was there, or you'd have gone into the builders' skip". I wasn't joking. Cars absorb a lot of energy as the mutually annihilate each other, a builders skip is an unyielding solid object.

The fault lies at least partly with the County Council, who for ten years have failed to provide a gritting bin at the top of the road, and who have ignored the greatly increased volume of traffic in the immediate area (a garden centre, a pub/restaurant and a drive-through junk food outlet have all opened within the last three months). Furious letters from me to the Council have yet to be answered.

My car, which was a lovingly cared-for L-Reg (manufactured 1993), was worth £500 as a write-off. Mechanical condition is not considered when valuing cars for insurance purposes, only the age and original value. The lesson for motorists is clear. Buy unnecessarily large and expensive vehicles. Deny responsibility. And if you do run into somebody, just have a laugh at the thought that the compensation they receive will be pitiful if they are poorer than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 01:24 AM

Of course Bill. Silly me.
I do have to say that while driving in America on holiday - and we've done it a few times now, that the behavior of drivers there is much, much better than at home in Aus. I don't know if it's to do with the harsh penalties or what but the difference is marked. I had to stop myself saying all the time, "Look at that! He just let us in!!!" and "No one is tailgaiting us!!" "Look! that truck's allowing us past!!"
AND we drove through LA and several other big cities (Fort Worth at peak-hour by accident included.)
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 01:00 PM

I suspect that roundabouts on English roads may encourage people to develop a kind of dodgem mentality. You know - you wait till it's clear and you're waiting for ever, and the cars behind start honking, and the pressure is to edge forward and rely on someone letting yoim in tom avoid a collision...

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 06:07 PM

Roundabouts, back in the days when nobody had right of way, used to work rather well. The principle of "Let one go, then go yourself" was largely adhered to by drivers.

Then, in the late 50s and early sixties, a new phenomenon appeared. The young driver in his Mini Cooper, or VW Golf, who believed he had a God given right to be first, threw away the book and made up his own rules.

As a result the current system of "Give way to traffic from your right" came in, and guess what. The same drivers now ignore that rule.

Same old same old.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Col K
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 06:15 PM

100 up and from an older driver

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 06:53 PM

Roundabouts can work very well, if there's not too much traffic around. The fact that you have to take account of other people, and not just follow the green light, when sing a roundabout can in fact encourage courtesy towards other road users, which is the most important driving quality of all.

But once the traffic builds up, the balance swings the other way. Harlow is a town with roundabouts on just about every junction, and they've been forced to put traffic lights on quite a few of them now, and thank God for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: HuwG
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:49 AM

An update on my post above.

My car was officially written off, as the estimated cost of repairs (over £1000) was more than the value of the car (£500). Well, a bit of shopping around and calling in a few favours got the car fixed for £600. Less write off value, provided by other driver's insurers, net £100 cost to me. It was worth doing, as the car was in excellent mechanical condition.

After almost a fortnight of dry but very cold weather, it started snowing last Friday (03/03/06). I hastily moved my car off the steep hill and parked it in Tesco's car park, as the street once again became a piste. I was woken up on Saturday morning by the sounds of spinning tyres and crunching metal. A van had just piled into a car nearly outside my house; pushing it downhill into another car; and another still. That's four vehicles with crunched bumpers (fenders), radiators, lights, wings etc. The second car down had the worst damage, as it was shovelled into the rear of one with a prominent towing hook fitted.

I have once again told the local authority we need a gritting bin. I have added a threat that in the event of future damage to my car as a result of similar accidents, they will face legal action for negligence. (Have I a case, or even a leg to stand on ? I have no idea, but I feel a lot better for blowing off steam).

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:24 AM

You folks in the UK seem to lack someone to bitch at. Here, if we have a problem, there is always an elected official to go at, and they respond because they want to get re elected. Sad, but it works.

Ref Steven King, walking on the wrong side of the road means you are walking WITH traffic, and therefore, unable to see what's coming up behind you.
Of course it doesn't absolve the driver of responsibility; However, if you are walking on the wrong side wearing dark clothes at night you are asking for trouble. I see it all the time, young people with their "I'm bullet proof" attitude. Children on bicycles are really bad about this. Here, a bicycle is considered a vehicle and it belongs on the right with traffic. I swear, parents don't know or care where their kids ride.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 01:12 PM

Sad event in County Fermanagh here last weekend. Four young people killed in the one car. Looks like speed was the cause, no other car involved. The funeral of a 16 year old girl killed in it took place yesterday. Another funeral of the other teenage girl was to take place this afternoon. When you think what hell the families have been through and it could not get any worse, today it did.

The funeral today was cancelled because yesterday they buried the wrong body. This morning they dug up the one buried yesterday and cancelled today's funeral.It was claimed today that the problem was with the D.N.A. tests. I am sorry this story is so horrible, but it highlights both the danger of speed, and it's mostly among young drivers, not older ones, and also how we depend on D.N.A. nowadays.

I think all our hearts go out to these families.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 09:47 PM

Generalisations cannot, and should not, be allowed to dictate policy.

Here in the UK, we have a driver's licence that remains in force from the date of passing the two part test, until the 70th birthday.

Thereafter, a medical is required, every three years, to renew the licence.

Professional drivers are even more rigorously controlled, but there have been Bus drivers still qualified in their late 80s, and I believe I am correct in saying that the oldest London Hackney (taxi)driver was in his nineties (and still able to satisfy physical and memory requirements).

Contrast that with the number of young drivers who can't remember that speed limits are maximums, and apply to all road users, or think that parked cars have been left for their use, provided they can get the doors open and jump start the ignition.

See, us oldies can generalise with the best.

The point is, as has been said above, IT ISN'T HOW OLD YOU ARE, IT'S HOW BADLY YOU DRIVE.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 03:25 PM

The title of this thread is both ageist and inaccurate. I know a fair number of older people who are very good drivers—much safer that a lot of younger drivers.

My father was an excellent driver right up into his early eighties. When he was young, he spent ten years as a chauffeur for a wealthy family (which, as well as driving, included doing mechanical work on the Packard limo). He knew how to drive safely and smoothly, and maintained those abilities until his health began to fail, at which time he said, "I don't think I should drive anymore," and that was it.

Right now, I'm 75. A couple of years ago, I was driving in a residential area, and suddenly a kid on a bicycle—a boy about ten or eleven years old—darted out between two parked cars right in front of me. Had it not been for a) a lot of experience as a driver, and, b) quick reflexes despite being what some regard as an "older driver," I could very easily have strained the kid through the grill of my Toyota Corolla. It scared him so bad he fell of his bicycle. As he reassembled himself, he was about nine shades of pale slightly tinted with green. I just stared at him, and he looked back, very guiltily, then mounted his bike and pedaled off. I don't think he'll pull that trick again.

Barring professional race drivers, I'll match my reflexes against any driver out there. At least you don't find all that many older drivers working on a laptop computer on the passenger's seat, talking on a cell phone, and eating an Egg McMuffin while zipping down the freeway and weaving in and out of traffic at seventy miles per hour.

If you compare accident statistics between older drivers and drivers under twenty-five, you might be in for a surprise. The younger drivers may, in general, have faster reflexes, but many older drivers have sufficient experience to anticipate and avoid dangerous situations in the first place.

Don Firth.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

I'll match my driving skills with anyone half my age.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:19 PM

I think the initial point was that a significant number of eldery drivers are no longer capable of driving safely due to age related factors.

There are also undoubtly a large number of young drivers who are excessivly dangerous due to inexperience, and many, many people of all ages who drive badly and dangerously for various stupid reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM

"Older Drivers are Killers"

Listen: ya don't like how I drive then stay off the fookin' sidewalks.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:34 PM

Define elderly, and explain how you reached that conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:50 PM

Interesting study here.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:33 AM

Peace, that is indeed an interesting study. I've never had a great sense of direction (but I can read a map....) and the amount of road signage these days is appalling... not least for the fact that as a pedestrian, my pavement (sidewalk) is being cluttered up by road signs and poles.

I live about 60ft from a fairly busy junction (2 schools and a major rat run). The powers that be decided to slow traffic by putting a mini roundabout at this junction. They put the sign warning people of this new roundabout 30ft from the junction, behind a tree. You could only see the sign when you were level with the tree, by which time, it was too late to stop. Incidentally, the police, the ambulance service and everyone who lives around that junction all say that the rate of accidents has increased since it was put in.

So often street signs are obscured by traffic signs, and in many cases, especially London, traffic signs are obscured by other traffic signs.

Add this to the maniac population we have here (people who dress entirely in black then jump out from between parked cars at night - I swear all we saw of one guy was his eyes and teeth as he turned to swear at us...) who have the road sense of your average possum, and it makes for some very fraught journeys whatever age you are.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:10 AM

Here in Edinburgh, there are moves afoot to remove alot of the road signs from the city centre at least, not beacuse there are too many and they're hard to read, which they are, but because it helps the streets look more Georgian, in line with the World Heritage site status....

Kendell, I was trying to state the general case without going into numbers, as, as that link shows, doing so is probably a thesis at least. But if you want to be picky:

Elderly: Is 70 an unreasonable age to use here? By defining any particular age as elderly, there will be some people above that age who are fit and well, and in better shape than those half their age, and also those below that age who are suffering whom you would assume are decades older than they are, again in terms of their generall fitness.

Significant: Well, even one driver on the road has very slow reaction times, memory lapses or impared vision, that is significant for them, and anybody around them.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:43 AM

I'm going to defend older drivers.

My mom is 80ish and still drives in the daytime (country roads) but not at night because her night vision is very bad.

The point is this. She knows her limits all too well. On occasion, she wishes she could drive at night but she doesn't want to kill or injure herself or anyone else. She asks other to drive her at night. She is quite capable of deciding what she is and isn't able to do anymore.

As far as I know, she has never had an accident or been given a ticket. She has been driving for at least 60 years. Why do people automatically assume that because you are old, you can no longer govern your own behaviour? Most of the elderly that I know are very sharp and would resent others limiting their activities.

Stereotypes are destructive. Please show a little respect. You, too, will be old one day.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bert
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 02:27 AM

OOOEEEE. Sorry Kendall, but I can't resist this one - you laid yourself wide open.

You say "I'll match my driving skills with anyone half my age."

but anyone half your age is already OLD. *HEE HEE*

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Green Man
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:50 AM

If old drivers are the cause of accidents why do the 'young' drivers pay the higher premiums.

I sympathise with your loss but must say you have it wrong. Younger drivers are the biggest killers on the roads by a huge margin.

GM

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

Green Man is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 04:36 PM

It is entirely reasonable to pay extra attention to older people, where medical concerns as to driving ability are concerned, as most relevent conditions will either be life-long, so they will never start driving, or are far more common amongst older people.


The question is really how to regulate those who do not govern themselves, regardless of if that is in driving drunk, dangerously fast, whilst attempting to read a map and directions, or whilst suffering from some medical impediment. The enforcement of traffic laws is strongly biased to wards some of these dangerous behaiviours, and away from others.

It's not old and young, or any other arbitary decision. It's simply responsible or irresponsible, and we should act against the irresponsible, wether they refuse to concede their eyesight is no longer good enough for driving, or that speed limits are not a minimum target....

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 04:47 PM

"Younger drivers are the biggest killers on the roads by a huge margin."

I would guess that's true, mostly because younger drivers are faster drivers, and the spped of impact sure does have an affect on the severity of the crash. Older folks are likely to drive a bit slower.

There also should be a differentiation made between the types of accidents. By far, I see more young and middle-aged people in car rollovers and bad MVCs than I do older people. Another thing to consider is this: older people do not fare well in accidents. This is because of various things associated with aging: bone density being lsee and the bones breaking more easily; other existing conditions exacerbated by the injuries sustained in the MVC.

I know many 'old' people who are excellent drivers. I know some young ones who aren't. I do think that when people are no longer reliable behind the wheel, they SHOULD be taken off the road. That goes for those who drink, people who have lots of accidents that they cause, etc. There is nothing wrong with asking people to verify their competency to drive--and if night driving is a hazard, then they should be restricted to daylight hours. Most of this stuff is a no-brainer.

The hellish difficulty, IMO, is finding reliable statistics that differentiate accident rates amongst age groups. Until people can look at those stats, it's all just matter of opinion and "I know someone who . . .". Not really helpful stuff to do with the premise of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

I would guess that insurance companies could provide those stats - they use them to work out premiums, which are partially based on age. The company I worked for had a special over 60s policy and targeted the age group - the stats suggested that, when that group had accidents, they cost less than other age groups. My company wouldn't touch drivers under 25.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:12 PM

I could find very little on the www, Jacqui. If the info's out there, it's hard to find (by me, anyway). I love to see the ststs if you know of a few sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM

I don't know the sites and I wonder if they would release the info as that is what they base their premiums on and, as such, they would probably not want to give it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

That's what I gathered after looking yesterday for about 20 minutes. The stats are around, but they seem not to be viewable by the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: ragdall
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 07:32 PM

I found some very old charts:
Drivers Killed in Crashes, by Age and Driver’s Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC)

This is from Central Mutual Insurance Company Accidents by Age of Drivers

Transport Canada 1984-2003 Collision Statistics (Page 6 of 7)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 07:39 PM

Good sites, Ragdall.

However, the stat that would be of great interest to me would be the one about who caused the accident. I would think that insurance companies keep those cards quite close to their collective chest. Wouldn't do to have rates change too quickly. It would likely upset the stock market.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 08:55 PM

Yep, Bruce, all old people should be put to death. Question is, how old, and who makes the decision? Hopefully not you Bruce. I'm sure you probably have not taken consideration that someday you too will be old. Want somebody to make the fateful decision about whether you live or die when you reach...say...70?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:07 PM

What the hell are you talking about? I have made no such suggestion. Read the bloody thread you jackass.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:08 PM

On second though: FUCK YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:13 PM

Peace - I think Doug was replying to the originator of the thread, also called Bruce! (At least, I hope he was)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:13 PM

BTW: I do not think for a minute that the GUEST posting as DougR really IS DougR. If someone checked the post origins of both GUEST Bruce O and GUEST DougR, someone would probably find they are one and the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: ragdall
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:35 PM

This study has some information about "at-fault" Florida drivers in fatal accidents, by age, in 2000. There is a bar chart on page 7 of 22.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:38 PM

GOOD ONE Ragdall.

The chart sure blows the premise outta the water. I wouldn't think it's substantially different in other pleces. Neat-o.

Hey, ORIGINAL POSTER: Yer WRONG!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:44 PM

Incidentally, I am not impervious to the frustration and anger the OP must feel. I lost many friends over the years who were t-boned or hit head-on. However, as Don W pointed out so eruditely, generalizations based on a few instances can lead to erroneous conclusions and assumptions. Sometimes 'the other half of the story' helps explain things.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:52 PM

The case FOR older drivers.........

(;<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:53 PM

Cheap shot. He doesn't have intersections to deal with!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:57 PM

Yeah, I know it........But the guy is still turning some fast laps in some pretty potent machinery! BTW, I was watching that race where the pit fire occured and he was pretty spry in exting the cockpit!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:59 PM

I hear that, Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 05:49 AM

Good Link Ragdall. Many of the trends in those figures weren't surprising, but the whole lot together is sobering....

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:18 PM

Anyone watch the programme on ITV tonight about older drivers. They are lethal ! Accidents waiting to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:42 PM

How old is 'older'? Yer talking to a huge bunch of 'older' people here.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:13 PM

Guest Roger,

If you are going to cite evidence to support your campaign, it might be as well to choose a scientific study, rather than a biased report cobbled together by someone as agist as yourself.

This program carefully selected a bunch of incompetent elderly drivers, and devoted three quarters of the time to showing how incompetent they were. The two competent elderly drivers used to present a fraudulent semblance of balance received about 5 of the 60 minutes.

Nobody is denying that there are bad older drivers out there. There are also bad middle aged, and bad younger drivers, but no one is singling the young or the middle aged out for special measures.

Logical examination would lead to the conclusion that you should be campaigning against BAD drivers, no matter what their age.

For you, it would be good if all drivers over 65 were removed from the roads so that you youngsters could kill one another unhampered by traffic. Of course, the downside is that you would then have nobody to blame but yourselves.

Don T.
66 years old and currently a professional driver. And yes, I took a driving test just five months ago, which confirmed that there is good reason for my forty five years of driving without a serious accident or conviction.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:18 AM

Don't react Don, he's a prick.
Second thoughts, hes not that useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:35 AM

Ouch ! Backwoodman feeling age threatened !

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:43 AM

The program did say, worryingly, that mile for mile drivers over 70 had more accidents than anyone and the accidents were more likely to be serious. A guy on there also said, very sensibly, that age should be no bar from driving. Better to measure ability. It is wrong that the over 70's should have to take a test after an accident and those under that age can carry on regardless. If it was up to me anyone causing an accident or having a motoring conviction against them should automaticaly be re-tested.

I don't think the program should be cause for much serious debate though. How can introducing a feminist comedian as presenter represent a serious attempt at addressing the subject?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:54 AM

Well, it wouldn't have been intended as "a serious attempt at addressing the subject" any more than any of the other "reality" shows are. They don't set out to be documentaries, they are a cheap way of making entertainment programmes to hold audiences.

It would be interesting to see a serious study into these kind of questions, which would try to disentangle statistical affects that might be related to the different way people use their cars (I suspect a higher proportion of the journeys made by older people are for short distances), and to the fact that older people are likely to be more vulnerable than younger people in an identical accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:43 AM

"Ouch ! Backwoodman feeling age threatened !"

Not at all. Just dislike pricks. Especially ones who can't spell.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:47 PM

I remember my father reading a letter that someone had wrote and they didn't like old people either, and his letter sounded all right until he finished with 25% of road Accidents are caused by old people aged 25 and older which mean 75% of road accidents are caused by young people Aged 25 and younger, Somehow I think his argument was flawed don't you

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:50 PM

Oh and by the way I ride a bike as well, and we pay taxes the same as you

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:51 PM

Young drivers think that they are good drivers, to me there are two very bad drivers on the road MEN AND WOMEN

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:13 PM

Young women talking on cell phones.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:06 PM

Guitar, that's nice to know, if true. When exactly did you cyclists start paying £190 annually for a road fund licence?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 24 May 07 - 03:50 AM

what about concil tax, that helps to keep the you people on the roads, and Income tax and other forms of taxes, and most cylcists are motorists themselves, so we do pay £190 a year

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:10 AM

I mean have not seen these cars with bycle racks on the backs of their cars or roof racks.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:15 AM

When exactly did you cyclists start paying £190 annually for a road fund licence?

I reckon they will as soon as they take up as much space as a car, cause as much polution as a car, damage the roads as much as a car and kill as many people as cars do. Fair enough?

How come you pay £190 btw - what the hell are you driving? Why not get a nice sensible economical car and pay £110 like me?:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:19 AM

So, DP, you concede you should pay something and be tested every year to make sure you are safe?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:51 AM

I'd be quite happy to pay a proportion of the £110 on the detailed above:-) So - What are we saying? % of size? 10%? % of polution - None. % of damage to the roads and other road users? Very little I should imagine - 1%? So, lets average it out 10+0+1+1/4 = 3 3% of £110 = £3.30. Yes, I'd be happy with £3.30 a year. As to having to be tested for safety every year - Do you mean the vehicle or the driver? If it's the former, again I agree. Cars have their brakes, emmisions, windscreen wipers, chassis, bodywork etc etc etc tested at a cost of, what? £45? Seeing as very little needs to be tested on a bike how about 3% of that as well? £1.35 then. How about we go for £5 for the tax and MOT? I could live with that as long as that then gives cyclists the right to use roads without being abused and threatened by car and van drivers.

Now, if you mean the driver needs to be tested to be safe. Yes - I will happily be tested every year to make sure I am safe as soon as all other drivers are:-)

Cheers

Dave

PS - It's all academic to me - I haven't been on my bike for about 3 years! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:08 AM

Road footprint - about 30%
Obstruction of other users - about 200%
Riding on the footpahts - about 1,000%
Head down with helmet on into door of stationary car - ooh, a fair bit
Atmospheric pollution - have you ever stood next to a cyclist who having tried to do a mile in two minutes is now carrying his bike onto a train? A phew extra pounds, I think.

Oh, and then there is the association of lentils with cyclists - greenhouse gases worse than cows....

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:24 AM

The tax paid by cars in both fuel duties and Road Tax goes mostly into the exchequer, and only about 15% of it is actually spent on building and maintaining roads. So to say your taxes help support road users is fatuous, it is fact the reverse that is true, and road users subsidise others.
As for the accidents caused by older people, why do insurance companies charge higher premiums for younger drivers?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:46 AM

"As for the accidents caused by older people, why do insurance companies charge higher premiums for younger drivers?"

Spot on, Giok. You're absolutely correct. I find it astonishing that kids with little real experience seem to think they're better than us old 'uns who've been driving for years. 43 years in my case, and not one accident.

Clearly, higher premiums are charged for younger drivers because, having their heads so far up their own arses, they have difficulty seeing the truth, let alone the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:03 AM

You know - either the gremlins ate a post or I have just had one deleted! I hope it's the latter - I was getting paranoid about being left out of the Mudcat conspiricy...:-)

Anyway, what I said, I think, was -

Hehehe - Nice one Richard! Don't believe the 200% obstruction though - I can usualy pass a bike easier than go round a bus or avoid a double parked delivery man in the Manchester rush hour!

Riding on pavements I agree with - but I thought you wanted then off the road anyway;-)


I don't do fast on a bike or eat lentils so no pollution on that score:-)

Cheers

D,

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:08 AM

"I find it astonishing that kids with little real experience seem to think they're better than us old 'uns ... "

Now when WE were young, we NEVER would have thought we were better than the old 'uns ... It's just plain unnatural ... !

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:11 AM

Who was it said "I left home when I was 20 because my father knew nothing. When I returned 5 years later it was amazing how much he had learned..."

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:49 AM

Who was it said "I left home when I was 20 because my father knew nothing. When I returned 5 years later it was amazing how much he had learned..."

Mark Twain, I think.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 24 May 07 - 10:28 AM

Because someone worked it out that 25 percent of road accidents are caused by older drivers, whereas 75 percent of road accidents are caused by younger drivers

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Mickey191
Date: 24 May 07 - 11:39 AM

My really close calls (4 of them) were all caused by young drivers. One still haunts me-Kid traveling behind me on a straight road for over a mile. As we approach a severe bend he decides to cross the double line and pass. I slow down to a crawl-He's along side me & coming around the bend is a propane truck. He had just inches to get in front of me & miss the truck. Had I not slowed down-we would have all bought the farm.

It happens we were both headed for a hospital parking lot. I pulled in beside him - got face to face with this twerp & said:"Because of your stupidity Your Mom & Dad might be planning your funeral tonight." There was a young child in the car. Neither said a word. I hope he always remembers that.

My husband was killed by a drunk driver who got away. I think, as someone said earlier, they should have their car taken away & their license revoked for 10 yrs. Let 'em all walk!!! There is a judge who wants to have drunks have a pink license plate--nationwide. So we'll know them. That's a start.

I'm a senior who has never been stopped by a cop-let alone gotten a ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 24 May 07 - 11:48 AM

How can a cyclist cause pollution, and they are road users the same as you becuse they use the road

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 24 May 07 - 11:50 AM

oh by the way, when i see these eejits on the road i say thank God I don't drive, I wish it was much more simpler, the horse, I mean ther only ollution you got from that was the stink of gas that came from it's arse and it's shit

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 May 07 - 11:58 AM

Cyclists fart and shit too!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GRex
Date: 25 May 07 - 03:27 AM

I have been driving regularly since 1948 with no offences, not even a parking ticket, and only two minor accidents, both of which when I was young. I'm now in my eighties and still enjoy driving. I realise that my reflexes aren't quite as good as they used to be and so drive accordingly.
             GRex

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 07 - 04:58 AM

"I reckon they will as soon as they take up as much space as a car, cause as much polution as a car, damage the roads as much as a car and kill as many people as cars do. Fair enough?

How come you pay £190 btw - what the hell are you driving? Why not get a nice sensible economical car and pay £110 like me?:-)"



Thank you so much, Dave Polshaw for you snotty response. It's about what I would expect from you.

1. They do take up as much space as a car, weaving in and out as if their lives depend on getting closer to the front at traffic lights.
Trying to pass without killing them means pulling out so far as to be at risk of knocking over pedestrians on the far pavement.

2. I'll grant you the pollution bit, apart from that caused in the manufacturing process.

3. I'll grant you the road damage also.

4. They don't kill people. True, in general terms, but they cause accidents aplenty, they mow down elderly pedestrians on the footpaths, which has resulted in huge sums of money being wasted on largely ineffectual chicane barriers, and if they cause permanent damage, they carry NO insurance, unlike motorists who pay hundreds of pounds yearly. They also ride around in pitch darkness without bothering to purchase any form of lighting, endangering themselves and anyone they meet.

So NO, not fair enough

As for your second point, it's none of your bloody business why I drive a larger car, but I'll tell you anyway.

I am a pensioner trying to have some sort of life on the miserable pittance our government naively calls a sufficient income. I cannot afford the price of rail travel for two people, nor the price even of the cheapest B&B, and foreign holidays are a distant dream.

So, I have a caravan. Try pulling one of those with your sensible motor, and see how long it lasts, not to mention the reactions of motorists stuck behinds you as you stagger up the smallest hill. What is sensible for you, may very well not be so for others.

Before you arrogantly judge other people, you need to know something about their circumstances. Failing this, just don't judge!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 07 - 05:32 AM

And what, pray, is "about what you would expect from me", Don? Do you know me? Have we met? How do you 'know what to expect'. The 'snotty response' you seem to have taken so much offence about is a question. "Why not get a nice sensible economical car?" It has a question mark on the end. It also, had you noticed, has a smile on the end for all to see. You answered the question quite ably when you said you towed a caravan. That would have sufficed but for some reason you chose to go off on one. I was initialy going to post what would have been a real snotty response but I shall put your fit of pique down to a temporary lapse in judgement.

Carry on enjoying your twighlight years in whatever manner you see fit and sod the consequences! you won't be around to see them anyway...

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 07 - 06:11 AM

as a Cyclist, I just don't like these 4x4's or people carriers that you see in town and city, I mean a 4x4 is all right for the country and a people carrier is all right if you have more than two people in you family, but not just one person or 4x4 and you jsut use it in town or the city, I mean what a waste and the pollution that you lot cause, please explain how a cyclist causes pollution

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 May 07 - 08:50 AM

Would you have somebody in their 80s running a country? It has happened! Bus drivers worry me! As a bunch, they look so unhealthy! Overweight, and prime for a heart attack. A friend of mine was a bus driver, and unfortunately he died during a heart by-pass operation, but he was overweight, smoked and drank too much. Bus drivers should have to pass some sort of physical aptitude test before being let loose on the general public.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 07 - 10:43 AM

"And what, pray, is "about what you would expect from me", Don?"

Review your posts on a number of topics, Dave, and you may become aware of a tendency to be brusque, dismissive, judgemental, and to spme extent intolerant. I don't doubt that you may be a completely different persona in the real world, but I can only respond to what I see of your attitudes in this virtual one.

Re-examine the question, reading the whole of it rather than the innocuous snippet you refer to in your reply, and in spite of the smiley, it reveals a rather superior , perhaps even supercilious attitude.

Enough already, this thread is not about our disagreements
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 07 - 09:08 AM

I am indeed brusque and dissmisive, Don, that is my way. Judgemental? Never sure what people mean by that. Each and every one of us makes judgements every day of our lives. It is only those that disagree with those judgements that tend to use the phrase 'judgemental'. Which brings us to intollerance. I am only intollerant of fools and I can assure you that I am not including you in that group.

Look back at the thread again. You will see that the major cause of intollerance seems to be against cyclists for some reason. Most others are in support of older drivers like yourself.

As to my attitude being apparantly 'superior'. Well, what can I say. If you have failed to notice the many self deprecating remarks against most facets of my persona then I do not know what else will convince you that such a remark is blatantly untrue. Maybe you need to address sone sort of inferiority compex? (Just kidding btw!)

But, yes, lets call it quits. Look after yourself and your caravan. You never know when I may need your hospitality at a folk festival:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 May 07 - 02:02 PM

If you ever do, rest assured you shall have it Dave.

Don T.