BS: Education, Race 'n Community...

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 10:48 AM

I found it interesting that when I was taking the education courses for my teaching certification in art (a field in which I'd already spent more that 20 years), I couldn't help but notice that the natural teachers already understood, by common sense, that children learned differently from adults.

And those who were not natural teachers were in no way helped past this lack of natural ability by informing them that children learn differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:18 PM

But would an indepth knowledge of Art History, of instance, help you teach a group of 7 year olds who were learning to finger-paint?

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:14 PM

Clarification:
NCLB current requirements (Act of 2001)-

"(1) IN GENERAL- eash local educational agency receiving assistance under this part shall insure that all paraprofessionals hired after the date of enactment of the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 and working in a program supported with funds under this part shall have-
(A) completed at least two years of study at an institution of higher education;
(B) obtained an associate's (or higher) degree; or
(C) met a rigorous standard of quality and can demonstrate, through a formal State of local academic assessment-
   (i) knowledge of, and the ability to assist in instructing, reading, reading, writing, and mathematics; or
   (ii) knowledge of, and the ability to assist in instructing, reading readiness, writing readiness, and mathematics readiness, as appropriate.

(2)CLARIFICATION- The receipt of a secondary school diploma (or its recognized equivalent) shall be necessary but not sufficient to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (1)(C)."
------------------------------------------------

NCLB Act 2007 (not yet enacted)

"The No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB) recognizes this. The law requires that all teachers of core academic subjects in the classroom be highly qualified. This is determined by three essential criteria: (1) attaining a bachelor's degree or better in the subject taught; (2) obtaining full state teacher certification; and (3) demonstrating knowledge in the subjects taught."

Find the full documents here: http://www.ed.gov/nclb/landing.jhtml
NCLB

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:46 PM

"But would an indepth knowledge of Art History, of instance, help you teach a group of 7 year olds who were learning to finger-paint?"

You're setting up a false choice/question. Simply answered, fingerpainting isn't taught.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:04 PM

What would you call it?

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:28 PM

Fingerpainting, in Canada, anyway, may be 'taught' in Kindergarten, but by age 7, the student should be using pencil and brush.

Requirements for a BEd are more or less equivalent but differ across Canada.
The basic Bachelor Ed. for the Elementary teaching route is a four-year program. At The University of Alberta-
"In the first two years of the 4-year BEd program, students complete non-education courses in seven specific elements that provide a necessary breadth in content background. Core requirements include courses in educational psychology and 13 weeks of field training. In addition to the core requirements, students select a minor consisting of 18 to 24 units of course weight.
Fourteen minors are listed; including: Native Studies, Math/Science, Music, Social Studies, English as a Second Language, Second Languages, Language, etc.

A Diploma course (1 yr.) is offered, requirements are completion of the above, plus a valid teaching certificate.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:40 PM

D,

In the US all it takes is Bacelor's Degree in Eductation which can be achieved in 4 years... 124 credit hours...

In Virgina, and this may be the same in most or every state, one semester of student teaching is also required...

Now here's where it gets tricky.... The actual number of credit hours required to teach various subjects is somewhat fuzzy... My 1st degree was a Bachelors in Eductaion... I was certified to teach governemnt, history and economics at any high school in VIginia... Problem was that I only had 2 sememsters of economics with the bulk of my credits being in American History and Political Science... However, with just 2 semesters of Economices I was certified to teach it???

But I really don't think that mattersd as much as what kind of teachers we have... Some folks can teach, others can't... And teaching folks to teach was hardly on the radar when I was in college... I don't recall how many credit hours I had in eductaion but when you take away student teaching, which was around 12 credits, there weren't many eductaion credits required...

BTW, d. I really admire the way your community operates... Mine is a million miles from that level of civil-ization...

Dickey,

Either you quit calling me a "bigot" or a "racist" or I'll have Joe Offer have you investigated and bring charges against you criminally for harrassment... Pure and simple... You don't think it can happen??? Where's Martin Gibson...

John,

I didn't ***say*** that ***you***, ***John Hardly*** made that statement... Did I??? You are granstanding here with yer righteous indination...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:49 PM

I didn't ***say*** that ***you***, ***John Hardly*** made that statement... Did I???

Yes, you did.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 06:33 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 06:44 PM

No, JOhn... Reread... Waht I said is that's it easy to say... It was a generalized statement about some folks inour society... I didn't say that you said it... It was an observation... Not a direct quote of yours...

You perfectly well know the difference... You ain't no stupmo... You are just using what I said to grandstand... Pure and simple...

(But, Bobert... Maybe John doesn't know the difference...)

Bull, he knoews perfectly well...

What he doesn't like is for someone to call into question his and others motivations in supporting the Robert's court decision...

Yeah, there are a lot of folks who hate ingtergration who hide behind this rather thinly veiled "Oh geeze, if only that mean ol' court would let my kids go to school with black kids" crap...

(But, Bobert... Now John will say that you said that he said that...)

No, I didn't say that John said that...

What I am asking is purdy danged simple here...

John,

Do you believe that schools should be intergarted???

Do you believe segregattion is wrong???

And lastly, if your answer to the above two questions is "yes" then how does a society go about doing that if "race" cannot be figured into the plans that bring these about???

Pure and simple...

Lets get this stuff out on the table, once andor all, and leave all this Robert's/Alito mumbo jumbo alone...

Let's talk turkey...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:06 PM

"...leave all this Robert's/Alito mumbo jumbo alone..."

                Why? Roberts and Alito are clowns. Don't you think we needed a little humor on the Supreme Court?

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:22 PM

LOL, Rig-ster...

Personally, I have always felt that Clarence Thomas is the real clown... Now, there's more clowns than Carter has liver pills...

I understood the Warren Court...

But not these guys...

They think they are like, ahhhhhhhh, 2/3's of the governemnt...

Talk about activism

Nevermind...

Bong hits for Scottie and...

...beam me up...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:26 PM

John Hardly, with regard to your 24 Jul 07 - 09:08 AM post:

I wrote that at a particular period of time during my college years at an overwhelmingly White college, I "sat at the lunch table with other Black students instead of sitting at the "integrated table". I also wrote that "that was just what the doctor [in me] ordered at that time and in that space."

Note that I said "at that time and in that space". I did not say "all the time". I also did not say that I was forced to sit at a certain table or prohibited from sitting at another table.

I think that it's important to note that I made a VOLUNTARY decision about an action in a SOCIAL SETTING and not in an academic setting. While the location of the lunch room table was in the cafetaria of a federally funded college, the students concerned did not have the power or the desire to enforce a ruling that only Black people could enter the cafetaria at a certain time or that no non-Black people could be served or that the food or service for non-Black people would be inferior to the food and service for Black people.

Fwiw, I see nothing wrong with students VOLUNTARILY deciding to join organizations with persons of the same race/ethnicity or VOLUNTARILY deciding to room with people of the same race/ethnicity or VOLUNTARILY deciding to sit and eat with persons of the same race/ethnicity-particularly if most of their academic-and many of their social interactions-are with persons "outside" of their race/ethnicity. As long as these organizations don't exclude persons of other races/ethnicities, or people aren't prohibited from sitting at a certain table, then I think it's their own choice and their own business.

However, I believe that it would have been [and still is] not only wrong, but illegal if students, or college personnel segregated other students in classrooms, laboratories, or other academic settings by race, ethnicity, gender, religion, sexual orientation, or for whatever reasons except those based upon academic criteria.

I also think it would be wrong and illegal to segregate students by race/ethnicity/religion in college dormitories and in social organizations which receive money from the college or receive city, state, and/or federal monies.

John Hardly, with regard to your statement that "It isn't about whites wanting to segregate from blacks. It is quite often, and for their own reason, blacks who wish to segregate themselves", I'm not going to attempt to quantify which groups of individuals wish to segregate themselves more. Besides not having a clue what the wishes of 20 million or more Black people are and the wishes of how many million White people are, it seems to me that what is important is to safeguard the rights of people to have racially diverse experiences in institutions that receive public funding or are supported in part or in whole by tax dollars.

Finally, John, I have concerns about your statements that "Recent studies have shown that, contrary to the "diversity" model that has been pushed on us as "better" for education, actually blacks in their own controlled schools are doing better academically without all the social engineering pressure that requires them to excel in a cultural setting that is an obstacle to their better learning."

I find these statements to be too simplistic. For instance "which studies?" And what "diversity model"? And who is the "us" that this model [or models] have been pushed on? And who is doing the pushing and why? Also what is meant by "blacks in their own controlled schools"?

And what in the world is meant by the sentence that these "blacks" are "doing better academically without all the social engineering pressure that requires them to excel in a cultural setting that is an obstacle to their better learning."

I've no doubt that there have been times that some Black students in segregated schools did better academically than some Black students in integregated schools. However, there might be any number of reasons why students in one type of school would have better academic records than students in another type of school. For instance, I'm curious about how the curriculums between these two types of schools differed, how these schools were funded, what the economic status was of the each schools' students, and what the faculty composition by race/ethnicity and gender was in these schools.   

In case there is any doubt, let me take this opportunity to state for the record that I strongly believe in racial diversity and other forms of multiculturalism in educational settings -and other settings.

Furthermore, I strongly believe that multiculturalism should be not only valued, but also taught, promoted, facilitated, and safeguarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:33 PM

Q - Your first paragraph deals with paraprofessionals. Paraprofessionals are not accredited teachers, they are considered support staff (special educ. assistants, alternate program workers, etc.) Teachers are professionals.

The second paragraph (NDLC) sounds similar to what is required in B.C. but you can obtain a bachelor of education with a major in the subject you wish to teach at the secondary level. An additional year (three terms) of professional development is also required. This includes upper level education courses and three practicums.

The only problem I see with the NDLC is that it does not seem to include courses specific to teaching. Fingerpainting may not be something that is 'taught' but try managing 20 or so children on how to share space, use the materials appropriately and do their share of the clean-up. After the paintings are dry, they must then discuss the image with the teacher or with the group. Then, of course, you must assess the lesson according to criteria that was previously set.

Most artists would have a very difficult time managing the lesson let alone the behaviours that occur when some children use paint. While teaching all of this, don't forget that at least 20% of the class have individual needs that must be met. These needs include behaviour, medical, vision, hearing, autism, etc.

Knowledge of a subject is definitely important at the secondary level but at the elementary level, it is far more important to understand child development and to be able to manage a variety of behaviours. Its a delicate balance creating a classroom environment where all children feel safe enough to learn.

If they don't learn the social skills required as part of a group, it won't matter how much the secondary teacher knows about a subject. Nobody can teach or learn in a chaotic environment. NCLB needs to pay more attention to teacher education at the elementary level and more money needs to be spent on early childhood development.

NCLB is just another feeble attempt to put out the fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 07:36 AM

So you're for volitional segregation but forced integration. How, exactly, does that work? You get to segregate when and where you wish -- except when the government tells you that you can't?

As to the story of the all black schools, I think it was a 60 Minutes segment.

As to "diversity" and "multiculturalism" I just don't care. I don't think you could STOP our country from being multi-cultural. I'm all for learning the best that any subculture has to offer. I don't give a damn if some subculture wants to participate in some practice as long as it doesn't adversely affect me or my rights. I'm part of a subculture -- Christian. I don't expect ANYONE to take communion with me.

Bobert,

I am the king of the typo. I rarely, if ever, submit a post without a typo in it. But even I cannot understand a word of your last post.

I think that what you are proposing, though, is that a person cannot be simultaneously against forced integration (in any way), and not be a racist. That is a false choice.

And, in fact, there is far more racist thought and intent (albeit unwitting) in the "well-meaning" forced integration. Forced integration is almost always proposed by those who think one or another group (usually blacks) are incapable of thriving on their own without governmental aid.

The only time when forced integration makes sense is when it has to do with equal access to goods and services provided by the government. And in that case, race plays very little role.

And, curiously, those goods and services provided by the government also have very little to do with good education. I live in a county where the smallest, poorest elementary school was WAY outstripping the other schools in the county, despite a fifty-year-old facility and the poorest kids in the county. In fact, that poorest school ranked as one of the top scholastically in the State -- while the other, newer schools with the rich kids did not make the list of top schools in the State.

Curiously, it became an embarrassment to the school administrators -- it flew in the face of asking for ever more money that the least provided for school performed the best. So they closed that school and integrated the children into the other schools. Now the poorest kids in the county have the farthest to travel each day to schools where they no longer get the attention that they did in their old school. But the blessed school board no longer faces the embarrassment of an over-achieving, under-funded school.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:04 AM

John Hardly, I suppose that the first part of your 26 Jul 07 - 07:36 AM comment was directed to me. My response to you would be that yes, there are certain circumstances and certain settings when I feel it is acceptable and legal for individuals to use their free will to congregate where and with whom they want, and other circumstances and settings where it is not acceptable and legal to do so.

It seems to me that at least one criteria for distinguishing when such "voluntary segregation" is whether the individuals are congregating in a public institution {and not at street corner}, whether that public institution or facility receives any city, county, state, federal funding; and whether the institution or facility prohibits persons from entering, and fully participating in an integrated manner, i.e. whether discrimination occurs within that facility on the basis of criteria that is not allowed by ammedments to our [USA] constitutions and laws.

I don't think having a table where some Black students encourage other Black students to sit but where they are not forced to sit [or having a table where Jewish students; or geeks, or football players, or cheerleaders, or members of a particul sorority or fraternity sit-or where certain people who have shared experiences and interests] sit within a public university cafetaria- is de facto against the law.

Of course, I'm not a civil rights attorney. Nor have I ever played one on television. And I didn't sleep last night in a Holiday Inn hotel {or whatever ad this half-remembered script comes from}.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:32 AM

"... and whether the institution or facility prohibits persons from entering, and fully participating in an integrated manner"

exactly. No school that I know of is prohibiting persons of any color from entering. THAT would be illegal.

....well....except that, when the government interferes by forcing integration, THEN people ARE prohibited from entering the school of their choice. That is exactly why the supreme court ruled against the forced social engineering in Seattle. It was determined that, on the basis of race alone children were forced into a school not of their choice -- or said as you worded it -- children were prohibited entry to the school of their choice on the basis of race alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:57 AM

John, there you go with that "forced social engineering" lingo.

I'd love to continue to exchange comments with you, but I gotta go out of town and may not be near a computer for a while.

I leave it to other folks to respond to your comments if they care to.

Best wishes to all and to all a good day.

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Dickey
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:24 AM

Bobert:

Do you or do you not believe that people of different races should be treated differently?

I do not.

Do you believe that people should be sent to different schools based on their race?

I do not.

Therefore I believe the Supreme Court's decision was correct regardless of who appointed Roberts.

I believe this thread is just an inflamatory statement. A stink bomb of yours designed to stir up an argument. Then when you get the argument you get hostile and make threats.

If I am wrong, be direct and tell me where I am wrong instead of attacking with personal insults and threats.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 11:12 AM

No, Dickey...

You have turned it into a stink bomb... But that is yer forte'....

When I use the term "racist" I don't use it as a ***Noun*** but an adjective... There is a major difference...

In a discussion or race the term "racist" is not necessarily a bad thing except when it is used as a noun...

Your repeted use of calling me a bigot and/or racist because I don't agree with you7 or the Robert's decision is beyond any stink bomb that I could evr conjure up...

If you were to call me that to my face, I would punch you out... And you can take that to the bank...

I'll match my life's work in the field of civil rights with yours anyday of the week...

Now if you want to rephrase that in ***your opinion*** that my opinions seem racist of bigoted, fine...

But I will not have you call me a racist (noun) or a bigot (noun)...

It is not only beyond hatefull and inflamatory but just might be considered criminal considering yer stalking me here in Mudcat... If you think not, PM Joe Offer and gets his thoughts...

Azizi,

Thanks for your thoughtfull posts... This is really what it comes down to... Products and serices (John's term, I think...) that are paid for from taxes paid for by all which are not equally avilable in a multicultural/diverse manner to all... And I understand that sometimes folks just want to be with folks (within that multicultural/diverse environment) who are of the same race, or religion, or whatever... That is not segregation... And that is not what we are talking about here...

What we are talking about here is the wholesale desegregation of publicly financed schools...

I've asked John how that can be acheived if race cannot be factored in but as yet haven't heard anything that makes sense... Lotta smoke and mirrors but no concrete plan...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:23 PM

"I'm part of a subculture -- Christian."

                There it is. There's the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 10:06 PM

Now, now, now, Rig-ster....

It's okay to be Christian as long as ij doing so one accepts the very basic premise that others may not share one's "Faith"...

In spite of my threatenin' to punch Dickey out, I am also a follower of Christ... I think of the Dickey's of the world as the money changers in the temple... I'm sure that Jesus was outta his mind over them...

But, when we speak of intergration, there is a big ol'
tent for all those who have a "belief system"... Let's just get in that tent an' talk... Many of tyhe world's problems would just go away if folks would do just that...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Dickey
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 09:37 AM

I believe that people should be able to go to school where they live.

I believe that it is wrong to force people to go elsewhere regardless of their race or religion. To force them to go to a certain place based on their race is forced desegregation. This forced desegregation causes racial hatred and hostility far beyond what occurs with de facto segregation.

What does this have to do with Jesus and the money changers in the temple?

What is so wrong with predominately black schools? If they are not working the logical thing to do would be to fix them. Pouring more and more money into them has not helped. The DC school system spend 50% above the national average. The problem is an inefficient bureaucratic system, low teacher salaries and a lack of parental participation.

Education is the key to reducing poverty, not rearranging where people go to school.

Civil rights leaders should concentrate their efforts on improving the schools and getting parents involved rather than blaming problems on someone else which stirs up more racial hatred and deepening the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 10:37 AM

Well, if our communities aren't intergrated then how is going to school where one lives going to bring about an integrated school system???

"The is a democratic element: an interest in producing an educational environment that reflects the "pluralistic society" in which our children will live. It is an interest in helping our children learn to work and play together with children of different racial backgrounds. It is an interest in teaching children to engage in the kind of cooperation among Americans of all races that is necessary to make a land of three hundred million one Nation" (Justice Breyer)

I concur and I also believe that thuis decision is going to come back and haunt not only our nation, the conservative movenemnt and the Republican Party...

I believe that most Americans don't wnat to reture to segregated schools... That's what you get when you have kids going to the neigborhood schools unless we are willing to take a mamouth step in creaating diverse communities... If you think the conservatives have been livid in the past just try doing that...

No, the real issue the desegregation/intergartyion of our schools... I have yet to hear any argument/idea on how that can be done if "race" cannot be "a" factor in determining how this can be done...

Yea, I wholehearted support imporving our schools form top to bottom... I believe that "No Child Left Behind" needs to be reviewed so that kids aren't being turned into fact regurgitating machines but can't actally, think and reason and create... I believe that teachers as grossly underpaid and that if they were paid more we would get higher quality people staying in the profession and not leaving in a few years because they can make a lot more money elsewhere...

But, and I know that some folks here are sick and tired on me harping on this, Justice Breyer and I are very concerned that the cuurent court is using some very weak logic in opening a big, big loophole that will allow communites to resegregate...

This is shamefull....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: John Hardly
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 11:31 AM

Most of America has moved on, Bobert. Most of America doesn't even give a second thought to whether their school is or isn't integrated. Most of America, unlike you, doesn't make judgements about the value of people based on their skin color. So most of America lives with the mixed society that has naturally occurred over the past 200 years. We don't care. We intermarry without a second thought. We work side by side. We go to school side by side. We don't care anymore. It is a non-issue with everyone but the race-baters like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and a news media who can still make a buck from the PERCEPTION of strife.

We don't think that as white people, blacks need us to complete their cultural experience. And we don't believe that we need blacks or orientals or any other group to complete ours. We're all part of a bigger, ever-changing culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM

"

Most university students believe that if they're "trying hard," a
professor should reconsider their grade.

One-third say that if they attend most of the classes for a course, they
deserve at least a B, while almost one-quarter "think poorly" of
professors who don't reply to e-mails the same day they're sent.

Those are among the revelations in a newly published study examining
students' sense of academic entitlement, or the mentality that
enrolling in post-secondary education is akin to shopping in a store
where the customer is always right.

The paper describes academic entitlement as "expectations of high
marks for modest effort and demanding attitudes toward teachers.""

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:37 PM

"Most university students believe that if they're "trying hard," a professor should reconsider their grade."

                I would think if they are trying hard and come to "all" of the classes, they probably deserve a "C," if that's the best they can do.
                Sometimes you might have an Art student who is having trouble in a Math class, or a Chemistry student who might be having trouble in English.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:51 PM

I could've told them that ten years ago when I was grading high school essays!