BS: Education, Race 'n Community...

Subject: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 06:31 PM

Well, well, well...

Just when we thought that ol' Jim was long dead seems that the Robert's Court has resurrented him with their decision that intergration is just way too much a bother...

Yeah, some will argue that it ain't all that bad but ***it is*** all that bad...

Yesterday's 5-4 ruling will long be seen as the rulin' when some Americans gave up the struggle to desegregate themselves... This ruling will be used in federal courts all over the country that have been packed with right wing ideologe activist judges who are just licking their chops to turn the clock back...

Make no mistake about this... Tghis isn't moving our country forward... This is like a quarterback fumbling the ball on purpose... This is terrible and makes me ashamed for my country...

Yeah, people wanted Earl Warren impeached but when we look at the Warren Court, which was the last of the true activist courts in modern time, the decisions made our country fairer and more compassionate...

This Roberts Court is the exact opposite...

Impeach John Roberts...

BObert

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 06:34 PM

I didn't know he left...

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 06:35 PM

Eisenhower appointed Earl Warren to be Supreme Supreme because he thought Warren would be conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 06:40 PM

A link to the relevant story would be helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 06:43 PM

Link to story.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 06:45 PM

here's one link

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 06:58 PM

This decision is not as clear & simplistic as some would have you believe. Yes, it sure DOES reverse older rulings which mandated certain kinds of integration, but a lot of the practical attempts to make those mandates work were...ummm....less than successful.

We are struggling against human nature and prejudice here, as well as the expense and practicality of controlling BOTH school requirements and people's willingness to associate. (don't tell me they DIDN'T de facto attempt to do that).

This court decision is BOTH a setback and an opportunity to craft some legislation which accomplishes what is needed - without thousands of busses and complex bureaucracies.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:26 PM

Problem is, Bill, that this Court is so activist and the legislative branch is so dysfunctional that the reality is that the "opportunities" you amy see are not politically achievable...

I can't begin to see any good in this decision... Ahhhhh, how can we fight segregation if "race" cannot be a factor???

That's like askin' a doctor what's wrong with you if he's not allowed to perform any tests or ask you any questions about how you feel???

Are you suggesting, my friend, that this ruling will create a an atmosphere for greater "success" in desegregation??? If so, please explain the in's and outs of your theory 'cause, fir the life of this ol' hillbilly, I'm having a hard time getting my head wrapped around much other than angry white men standing in school house doors...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:29 PM

Pretty inflammatory thread title.

The actual situation is more complex (and more deserving of careful, calm, rational thought) than the thread title reflects, or prompts.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:40 PM

The Robert's court also said that big corporations can fix minimum prices for their products. If a store discounted below that fixed price they could be sued big time.
If consumers get a discount below the new price fixes they may also be breaking the law.

Justice Kennedy is roaring mad at Roberts right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM

"Are you suggesting, my friend, that this ruling will create a an atmosphere for greater "success" in desegregation???"

No...I'm not saying that....I flatly don't know. I DO know that after all these years of having "Brown v. BOE" in place, there were still ways around it, and implementation was costing lots of $$$ and getting very mixed results.
You oughta know that *I* sure do want to see discrimination reduced and fairness made 'fair' for everyone....I just am finding it harder to be sure what IS fair as society changes these days. NO law seems to cover all the bases. I'm not happy with what the obviously newly moved-to-the-right court has done, but I see what gave 'em the opening.

Maybe in 18 months we can take another run at crafting better rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:59 PM

Well, WYSuzie, I meant it to inflame...

There are times when folks have to get beyond taking crap... The progressive/moderates of this country have been taking crap for 30 years now...

Yeah, the right wing killed off the progressive movement by assasination of our leaders in the 60's...

Yeah, it would be nice if we could "all just get along" and we could if we would *all* just adopt the corporatist/racist doctrine which is racist and greedy...

But after a week of seeing 50 years of progress on 1st ammendment and 13th ammendment rights get run thru the shredder there isn't a **true*** progressive in this country who isn't really pissed off...

What I am saying is being said all over this country tonight... Check out Eugene Robinson's op-ed in the Post today and you'll find that what I've said is purdy mild in comparasion...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:04 PM

Bill,

Agreed, kinda...

The problem is that the legislative branch ahs been trivialized... The prsident, and now his judical buddies, have usurpted the power...

Congress tried to craft a better way to control the $$$ in politic with the McCain-Feingold legislation... Congress spent months debating and compromising and came out with a product... Then, in a single fowl swoop, 5 idealoques, all appointed by Republican laid waste to the thousands of hours that some 600 duely elected representatives had produced...

I don't see the sliver lining here...

But yer still my bud...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:33 PM

WYSIWYG has understated the situation by calling it complex.

Public school choice plans did much to weaken the public school system. An unintentional result was the growth of many charter and faith-based schools, leading to new kinds of segregation.

The growth of charter and faith-based schools owe much to the old ruling. In some areas, fewer children attend public schools than the 'pay' schools, and public money is going to the pay schools on the basis of numbers of students. A number of cities, including New Orleans, have more 'other' than public school students. Separate boys and girls schools are becoming popular again.

The result is that, with fewer students and less money, public school programs are much diminished.

Calgary in (Ha, ha) prejudice-free Canada now has Muslim, Jewish, charter, and Christian-religion-based schools of all stripes receiving their shares of the tax money, based on number of students in each school. Catholic ('separate') and public ('other') schools in Canada have long separated Catholic and Protestant students but now the latter are being separated as well.
Of course, here in Calgary the well-to-do and those looking for the best schooling for their kids for some time have had two or three private schools with restricted admissions. Some students are sent down east.

Small towns and rural areas have always had their segregated separate and public schools, but are much less affected by the other divisions of the cities.

An interesting situation has developed in Atlanta where there are now wealthy gated African-American in addition to white communities, and the charter (called something else in the States but I can't think of it) schools are performing the function of keeping children with their proper peers.

I don't know the answer, but to me, it seems that kids are being separated from each other, as they always have, by the drive of their parents to keep them with their own kind. The 'real' segregation.

The old ruling had only re-inforced that bent.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:42 PM

I should also mention that in Calgary, the public schools now have many immigrant and ESL (English as second language) students, making teaching very complex. This has added to the desirability, in the minds of parents, of keeping their kids out of public schools, at least below high-school level.

Another problem is the difficulty of absorbing children with some learning disabilities into the classroom. This also has caused difficulties.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:45 PM

True, Q. Integrating special needs kids has caused great problems. Of course, if the government funded the kids properly . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:46 PM

Yeah, Q, this is what happens when a country takes it's eye off the ball... Yes, it is complex and folks have figured out how to keep their kids from having to go to school with kids of another race... This ruling will go along way toward making it even easier for these parents to keep their kids from having to go to school with kids of another race...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 10:33 PM

Race has become less important than mindset- which is determined by beliefs and shared interests, both social and religious. Income is a factor in determining interests. But I can't deny that it isn't an important force in much of the world.

In this case, I think legislation exacerbates the problem.

Home schooling, allowed here in Alberta, and also growing in the States at the expense of the public system, is leading some kids into very peculiar beliefs indeed. Nothing wrong with the old tutor system, if the material covered in broad, but some parents ideas of education outside of the basic 3-R's is limited to their own very narrow mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 10:54 PM

For McGrath and others, here is the news story from the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/washington/29scotus.html?ref=todayspaper
Supreme Court

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 12:30 AM

There is a lot a rhetoric about this, but it may be instructive to read the decision itself. I don't have a lot of faith in the ability of this particular bunch of black robes to come down anywhere near the center on anything, but what they actually said is that deciding what school children should attend based only on their race is a violation of the equal rights clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. What the childrens' families were arguing is that it is better for the child to go to a neighborhood school (Kentucky case) or to their preferred high school (Seattle case) rather than be assigned to another school because the one that they preferred, and to which they would be otherwise assigned, was over quota for a particular racial group.

IMHO, if a city/state is legally given the authority to decide that black kids should go to a particular school because there aren't enough children of color there, or that white kids should attend a school because there are too many black kids there, than they have an equal right to decide that all black or white kids should go to a particular school. George Wallace would have loved it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 01:27 PM

"Home schooling, allowed here in Alberta, and also growing in the States at the expense of the public system, is leading some kids into very peculiar beliefs indeed. Nothing wrong with the old tutor system, if the material covered in broad, but some parents ideas of education outside of the basic 3-R's is limited to their own very narrow mindset."

          Q - I see this as a huge problem. Parents imput is very important in education to be sure, but at some point there has to be an effort to make sure everyone has some general understanding. We now have a university that caters only (or maybe mostly) to home schooled kids. When you see them on television, it's like they grew up on some other planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:30 PM

Riginslinger, I agree. Kids need interaction with other kids and a broad range of contacts.

On reflection, tutoring is useful as an adjunct, or, in special cases. Of the latter, I am thinking of musical or others of genius level who need special schooling and guidance. But interaction with people is just as necessary for them, otherwise they can never perform properly in public or on the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 08:55 PM

Well, one thing I gotta say, Clarence Thomas' got a lot of nerve.

Check out this quote from the link that Bruce posted:

"Thomas took a harder stance against the choice plans: "Simply putting students together under the same roof does not necessarily mean that the students will learn together or even interact," he said. "Furthermore, it is unclear whether increased interracial contact improves racial attitudes and relations."

-snip-

So how much interracial contact does Thomas have being the sole spook that sits by the door?

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 09:13 PM

Clarance Thomas is a disgrace to mankind... He woukld roll his own mother under the bus... He makes Uncle Tom look like a flaming revolutioary...

Might of fact, I am embarrassed for Clarence Thomas seein' as he has been consistently used by the white power structure as some kind of representative for the black community... He is a bad joke... He is boderline retarded and nuthin' but a court jester... He is a disgrace to the black community... There are millions of black folks with high school diplomas that are smarter than Clarence Thomas...

Thergood Marshall had more intellegece in his fingernail clippings that Clarence Thomas has in his entire body...

He is the least qualified Supreme Court jstice in the history of our country...

Impeach him too along with that lieing sack of crap, Roberts... Neither belongs on this court... One is brain dead and the other an ideologue... Might of fact, Scalia is so prejudiced that he doesn't belong either... He has his mind made up before the arguments... That is not what good judges do....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 09:27 PM

Btw, Bobert. I like your title {though I keep wantin to put an apostraphe in it so it reads "Jim Crow's Back in Town"}.

But I agree with Mrrzy that Jim Crow never left.

I also agree with folks on this thread who have said that this is a complicated subject.

I know that diversity is important and that it can add to a quality education.

With regard to public education in the USA, I'd love to see MUCH more attention given to a better plan to fund public schools than using the tax base of the community-since that screws poor children regardless of their race/ethnicity.

I'd also love to see MUCH more attention given to ensuring that the curriculum in public schools is cultural competent and is not just a tourist, sometimey approach to non-Eurocentric history, cultures, and current events like it appears to be now in most schools.

And I'd love to see teacher's colleges and continuing education programs pay more than lip serve to this cultural competency curriculum so that they may actually know what they are supposed to be teaching and role modeling.

I'd love to see "No Child Left Behind" and other "teaching to the test" programs scratched.

In addition, I'd love to see MUCH more attention given to eradicating institutional racism in employment opportunities, the health care system, housing, public welfare, child welfare, mental health system, drug & alcohol system, public transportation, juvenile justice, and criminal justice systems.

I'd also LOVE to see more culturally competent arts and other cultural programs and more recreational programs available for and accessible to children, and teens, and adults.

Furthermore, I'd love to see more people who have "made it" working with children & youth who are in danger of not making it and/or working to address the real systems dysfunction that exist across the board in this nation.

All of these action steps impact whether all children and teens-regardless of race/ethnicity, or economic class get a quality education.

And all of these action steps should be doable in the richest nation in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 09:58 PM

Hi, Azizi! Not quite sure what you mean. Please expand.

I think there is much truth in the statement by Thomas.
Here in 'multicultural' Canada, where I am now, public schools have been much diminished as many parents have taken their children out of 'contact' situations. This has no bearing, however, on the integration problems in the United States.

If the contact is not handled correctly, it can lead to disruption of the system. My sole example from the States is Decatur, Georgia, because it is the only one in which I knew some of the participants. Decatur was a small town on the margins of metro Atlanta, nearly all white middle class demographics. Before busing, the high school was known for the quality of its work. Teaching staff included a few well-qualified African-American teachers had been added to the staff. The library was top quality, teachers and administrators having worked to build it up with the help of a trained library scientist (a sister-inlaw of mine).
The powers that be demanded integration of African-American students from metro Atlanta into the system to provide 'balance' and 'contact.' The metro Black' kids were bused into Decatur.
The school fell apart. Students spoke different languages, although called English. Their understanding of social interaction was mutually shocking to both groups. Teachers had no training or help and could not cope with the new charges. The library was destroyed. I remember my sister-inlaw's upset, to put it mildly.
Of course, the white students for the most part left and were enrolled in private facilities.
Decatur still has 'political' identity although, being a part of metro Atlanta, its demographics have changed considerably.

I am sure similar case histories influenced Justice Thomas and his collegues of the majority decision.

I am sure that the situation in much of the northeast and northern midwest, with different culture, would have been better handled.
The busing of students into different neighborhoods is a sore issue in the south and western cities, and many applaud the decision.

In the southwest, the problem was entirely different; the large Latino group complicated matters and the full impact of Court decisions made in far-off Washington was not felt.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:00 PM

Yeah, Mizzi...

I agree with you 100%...

"No Child Left Behind" is a cruel joke palyed mostly on predominaently balck schools in inner cities... Like these schools are supposed to correct a very screwed up social system??? And level the playing field between the haves and theve-nots???

Sick!!!

No, "No Child Left Behind" is nuthin' put a punitive sysytem that allows for grater segregattion thru charter schools and tuition vouchers which don't de-segregate but re-segregate... It teaches rote memory as opposed to critical thinking... It is void of the arts... It is void of much of what it takes for adults to be informed and vote responsibly... It is a charade with a fancy name....

What we need for the future our our country is more diversity and more creativity, both of which the recent Supreme Court ruling and "No Child" set back decades... Maybe a century...

And, yeah, I know that Jim Crow has never been dead... I live in the South and I know what is in the hearts of way too many white people and it's "hatred"... What they hate is their own miserable predictaments but "Boss Hog" has convinced them that the reason that they are so miserable is because of balck people... And these folks don't have the crityical thinking skills to see that they are being used like pawns...

Just as Clarence Thmas is being used as a pawn...

I certainly hope and pray that we win the next revulotuion 'cause the US is running out of time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:11 PM

Here's an article about the USA's poor educational system {pun intended] and its impact on other systems in the USA:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/19/Dobbs.June20/index.html

Dobbs: A legacy in search of a president
POSTED: 8:32 a.m. EDT, June 20, 2007

Here's an excerpt from that article:

"...The Education Week report shows Detroit's public high schools will graduate only 25 percent of their students. Cleveland, Ohio, and Baltimore, Maryland, will graduate less than 35 percent; Dallas, Texas, New York and Los Angeles, California, about 45 percent. In fact, 10 of our nation's biggest cities will graduate fewer than half their students. This is nothing less than a national crisis.

Christopher Swanson, director of the Editorial Projects in Education Research Center and supervisor of that national dropout rate report says: "I think that really speaks to the challenge of getting students to graduate from high school at a time where it's more important than it's ever been...to provide opportunities for our young people to have a successful career and for the United States in general to be competitive in the world."

The Alliance for Excellent Education estimates that each high school dropout earns about $260,000 less than a high school graduate over his or her lifetime. The Alliance also reports that dropouts not only earn less money but also drain state and federal budgets through their dependence on social and welfare programs. Those students who drop out make up nearly half the heads of households on welfare, and they constitute almost half of our prison population as well. The cost to our society is overwhelming.

But even our students who are graduating are often not receiving the education they deserve. In low-income schools, students have less than a 50 percent chance of being taught by a mathematics or science teacher who holds a degree in the subject he or she teaches, according to the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. This explains at least in part why less than a third of our fourth-grade and eighth-grade students performed at or above a proficient level in math, and why American 15-year-olds fall below the international average in mathematics literacy and problem-solving in the Program for International Student Assessment".

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:21 PM

There are many factors that influence results of the PISA. For example, Japanese kids do very well in their math scores; however, what is not taken into account is the fact they also attend school for more hours than most North American kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:40 PM

Here's two other perspectives on this subject:

More On Desegregation/Resegregation Options ; By George E. Curry
The Curry Report for "Black New Yorkers For Educational Excellence"

"...schools in the South and Border states among the most desegregated in the nation. On the other hand, schools in New York, Illinois, California and Michigan were the most segregated, with the average Black students attending schools that had less than a quarter of students who were White.

Unlike the 1960s, school desegregation is no longer a Black/White
paradigm. Latinos are the fastest- growing group in the U.S. and ...
"Latino segregation is higher than black segregation on some measures in the South and West," the Harvard study said. "In the West, where Latinos are concentrated, 81 percent of Latinos are in schools with nonwhite majorities, followed by 78 percent in the Northeast and South."

Schools are a preview of what is to come.

"Since the 2000 Census a great deal has been written about the
demographic transformation underway in many American communities as the U.S. moves toward the day when citizens of European background will no longer be the majority, but the changes are much more rapid and dramatic in the school age population," the report stated.

Although the White population in the U.S. is not projected to dwindle to 50 percent until 2050, that ratio has already been reached in many schools systems...

But no one should be confused about why African- Americans sought to
enroll in desegregated schools.

"There is no evidence that the long struggle of civil rights groups to end segregation was only motivated by a desire to have minority children sit next to white children," the Harvard report stated. "There was a strong belief that predominantly white schools offered better opportunities on many levels..."

It is disturbing that at a time when the U.S. is undergoing a major
demographic transition, few high-ranking officials have publicly voiced the need for all groups to prepare to live in a fast-approaching multi-cultural society in which Whites will be in a minority and no group will constitute a majority"...

**

http://www.cal.org/resources/Digest/0009programs.html
December 2000
"Programs That Prepare Teachers to Work Effectively With Students Learning English" Josué M. González and Linda Darling-Hammond

Introductory statement:
"Schools and teacher education programs have begun to rethink preservice and inservice professional development to take into account the need for teachers to work effectively with students learning English. New approaches to teacher education are based on the belief that English language learners' access to challenging content can be enhanced through teaching strategies that provide multiple pathways to the understanding of language and content. Because students must use language to acquire academic content in mainstream classes, second language teaching must be integrated with the social, cultural, and political contexts of language use.

This digest provides a summary of some of the problems associated with traditional teacher education and describes preservice and inservice programs that prepare teachers to work effectively with English language learners".

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:52 PM

And yet again there are other considerations. Most teachers ARE teachers because they were able to 'pss' the exams and move on into post-secondary institutions to receive the paper qualifications needed to teach. We have produced countless teachers who teach subjects. Really, we need teachers who teach kids.

Howard Gardener's excellent research into multiple intelligences is a case in point. Not all kids learn the same way. We give lip service to believing that, but the truth is that not many schools have the economic 'oomph' to support it. In Alberta, special needs kids are sorely under-funded, and not too many school divisions actually fund gifted and talented programs because the cost is not supported by government--despite the requirement being part of the Education Act in this province. We have known for decades that the optimum learing ratio is 17 to 1. However, that takes money, so the bullshit flies about 'do more with less' until eventually teachers/schools are trying to everything with nothing. Until such time we put bucks where the research proves it should go, we will none of us have the education systems that would produce students who have been challenged to their fullest potentials. And society will pay as a result of that. Indeed, it is becoming a national disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:16 PM

As much as I disagree with him politically, when I've seen Clarence Thomas on television, he comes off as a very smart guy. I think there is merit on both sides of this discussion.

          But.

          I was watching a presentation by Howard Zinn on C-Span, and he was asked, if he could do just one thing to correct the problems in America, what would he do?

          His answer was, "Double teacher's salaries."

          When one stops to think about it, this would address a number of issues. Teachers would get the respect they deserve, but more importantly, the profession would begin to attract people who, for one reason or another, had a lot of talent, but felt like they simply couldn't afford to go into teaching. Frankly, I think Howard Zinn was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:43 AM

Below is a link to a series in the Washington Post investigating the school system there. There is SO much great information that points up and attempts to explain problems in one of the worst districts in the nation. The fact that I CAN EVEN WRITE THAT SENTENCE ought to piss us off enough to march out our front doors this morning!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/interactives/dcschools/

What struck me, though, was a graph (I'll make you read around and find it yourself) that stretched down the right side of a page of newsprint, ranking district schools by poverty levels and proficiency. It was disturbing in its simplicity: poor equals poor-performing. I think most of us know that on some level, but this graph HAD to make people sit up straight and pay attention.

There was, however, ONE school that jumped out of the trend, and I wish I had time to go find out more and read about what's happening different there.

I'm so glad to see this discussion here. All due respect to you, Bobert, I wish we could change the title to invite the same kind of thought and discussion I see in the Poverty thread.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 12:54 PM

I came across this poem on the internet and thought some teachers out there might enjoy it.





What Teachers Make, or
Objection Overruled, or
If things don't work out, you can always go to law school

By Taylor Mali
www.taylormali.com


He says the problem with teachers is, "What's a kid going to learn
from someone who decided his best option in life was to become a teacher?"
He reminds the other dinner guests that it's true what they say about
teachers:
Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.

I decide to bite my tongue instead of his
and resist the temptation to remind the other dinner guests
that it's also true what they say about lawyers.

Because we're eating, after all, and this is polite company.

"I mean, you¹re a teacher, Taylor," he says.
"Be honest. What do you make?"

And I wish he hadn't done that
(asked me to be honest)
because, you see, I have a policy
about honesty and ass-kicking:
if you ask for it, I have to let you have it.

You want to know what I make?

I make kids work harder than they ever thought they could.
I can make a C+ feel like a Congressional medal of honor
and an A- feel like a slap in the face.
How dare you waste my time with anything less than your very best.

I make kids sit through 40 minutes of study hall
in absolute silence. No, you may not work in groups.
No, you may not ask a question.
Why won't I let you get a drink of water?
Because you're not thirsty, you're bored, that's why.

I make parents tremble in fear when I call home:
I hope I haven't called at a bad time,
I just wanted to talk to you about something Billy said today.
Billy said, "Leave the kid alone. I still cry sometimes, don't you?"
And it was the noblest act of courage I have ever seen.

I make parents see their children for who they are
and what they can be.

You want to know what I make?

I make kids wonder,
I make them question.
I make them criticize.
I make them apologize and mean it.
I make them write, write, write.
And then I make them read.
I make them spell definitely beautiful, definitely beautiful, definitely
beautiful
over and over and over again until they will never misspell
either one of those words again.
I make them show all their work in math.
And hide it on their final drafts in English.
I make them understand that if you got this (brains)
then you follow this (heart) and if someone ever tries to judge you
by what you make, you give them this (the finger).

Let me break it down for you, so you know what I say is true:
I make a goddamn difference! What about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 01:14 PM

Well, Dani, if you have another name for the thread that you think would be better then PM me, I'll give it a think over and if I like it as well, I'll ask Joe Offer to change it...

Okay???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 02:07 PM

Bobert, Jim Crow is a man with a coat of many colors; I think your thread title has brought some interesting responses.

Clarence Thomas in many ways is self-made. He also reflects views found in rural Georgia which differ from those of urban Blacks.
He was born a 'Geechee,' but when a child was dumped into Savannah, perhaps the most socially stratified city in America. He suffered taunts and discrimination from lighter-skinned Blacks and was not accepted by them.
He did learn Georgian English, but isolated and being bookish, largely taught himself. Still uncomfortable in the language, although he has learned it very well, he rarely gives oral opinions.
His views seem to reflect those of many rural Georgian Blacks, but not those of urban, or urban-influenced Blacks.

A recent book, "Supreme Discomfort, the Divided Soul of Clarence Thomas," by Merida and Fletcher, Doubleday, provides some understanding of the man, but their knowledge of southern rural Blacks, like mine (although my wife is from rural GA), is superficial.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 02:58 PM

Q,

I'm sure you didn't mean to, but you insult people of Gullah {Geechee} descent or other "rural Georgian Blacks" by equating their views with those of Clarence Thomas.

I've known some Gullah people, and the people I know definitely do NOT have the same views as Thomas.

Besides which, how you gonna lump all people from one area together and say they think this way or that way?

There's lots of different viewpoints among Gullah people. But my bet is on the fact that most people of Gullah descent-like other African Americans think that Clarence is not only a disgrace to Black folks, but he-like his massa Georgie-is a disgrace to the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 02:59 PM

I found a review of the book Q mentions in his last post.

I'm gonna post the whole thing since some people on dial-up Internet access may be interested in reading it.

Metrotimes {Detroit}

ONE SACRY GUY
by Larry Gabriel
5/16/2007

"I'm not sure that anyone really needs to read a biography of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. But I must admit that Supreme Discomfort: The Divided Soul of Clarence Thomas ($26.95, Doubleday, 432 pp.), by Washington Post reporters Kevin Merida and Michael Fletcher, provides fascinating insights into the character of the man so many of us on the left have come to vilify.

And the new book's title is dead on. The man is uncomfortable in so many ways. Indeed, he seems uncomfortable in his very skin. And that is the crux of the man. He is a conservative's conservative whose votes and opinions fly opposite the major opinions, judgments and philosophies of the civil rights era. And he seems to reserve a special hatred for affirmative action.

Merida and Fletcher's book goes a long way in explaining the contrarian bellicosity that Thomas displays. He never got over the slights and injustices that school kids mete out to each other. Thomas was teased as a child for his Geechee-Gullah speech patterns, for his dark skin, for his Negroid features, for his kinky hair. And all this teasing came from other black kids, who Thomas viewed as the lighter-skinned black middleclass — the families of doctors and lawyers who didn't accept his entrepreneurial grandfather who made a good living delivering heating oil.

At the same time he felt himself an outcast among the white students at the private Catholic schools he attended. So Thomas grew up a man without a country — adrift with nothing to cling to but his increasingly rigid beliefs. He had a growing disgust with the way poor blacks became dependent on entitlements. He seems to think that whites see his achievements as tokenism or the result of quotas. The bottom line is most professional blacks deal with this attitude on a regular basis, but it doesn't turn into a bitter crusade against the very thing that helped them along the way. Nor does it lessen their professional aptitude and effectiveness.

The guy seems to have so much inner conflict that you begin to feel sorry for him. Then you look at the votes he has cast, and your compassion becomes tempered by how much he has harmed progressive causes, and how much potential he has to cause further harm. He favors capital punishment, supports executive power of the sort President Bush flouts, and isn't big on the rights of those accused of crimes. He voted against the University of Michigan in the affirmative action case that came before the court in 2005.

Thomas is an odd character who is a friend to Rush Limbaugh and former Texas U.S. Rep. Dick Armey; he and Armey are fishing buddies. And Thomas defended Strom Thurmond from charges of racism because the senator spoke nicely to him when he first arrived in Washington. He seems to long to be accepted by black people but lives an insulated life protected from those who he feels have turned against him. He doesn't forget either, keeping a detailed mental checklist of those wrongs.

Although Anita Hill's is the name most often connected with Thomas' in public memory, there's relatively little discussion here of the 1991 Senate confirmation hearings where she accused her former boss of sexual harassment and nearly scuttled his ascension to the high court.

Still the authors make clear that if all the available evidence had been allowed in the hearing, Thomas would probably not have been confirmed

The odd inner workings of the Supreme Court come into focus in the latter part of the book. In some cases, Supreme Court justices' opinions have evolved as they study and argue about the U.S. Constitution. Don't expect Thomas to change. He is rigid and seems to have little curiosity that would change his hardened mind-set.

Discomfort is well-written and told in anecdotes that make for good storytelling. However, when you step back and consider the man, Clarence Thomas is scary."

http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=10502

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 04:19 PM

Yes, there are many different views in the South, of course I oversimplify by trying to indicate that views in rural Georgia differ from those held in other parts of the country. I can only speak from what I learned there which admittedly is superficial- only someone born there or with long exposure there can speak with authority. I have only met one Gullah (having a hard time outside of her area and of course one is never representative) but talked with a number of rural Blacks in central Georgia.
(Perhaps I should also say that educational money in rural Georgia is often mis-spent and wasted).

Another review of the book, "Supreme Discomfort," appeared in the New York Times Book Review, June 17, 2007, reviewed by Orlando Patterson, a professor of sociology at Harvard University.
In a note "Up Front," The Editors say Patterson thinks "extremism on both sides is flatly rejected. The great majority of black Americans, including the black poor, do not blame their problems on race, as the academic army of social scientists insists on telling them they should, and getting lifetime tenure for it." Patterson considers Thomas a "disappointment" because he lacks compassion and often is extremely "right-wing" in his views.
The review: http://www.nytimes.com/pages/books/review/index.html
Book Review
Put Supreme Discomfort in the Search box, check books. This will link one to the review "Thomas Agonistes," no. 2 on the list that appears.
The review is too long to insert here. The reviewers conclude: "...the book remains invaluable for any understanding of the court's most controversial figure. It persuasively makes the case that "the problem of color is a mantle" Thomas "yearns to shed, even as he clings to it." In doing so, it brilliantly illuminates not only Thomas but his turbulent times, the burden of race in 20th-century America, and one man's painful and unsettling struggle, along with his changing nation's, to be relieved of it."

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:37 PM

Thanks, Mizzi...

Okay, I understand what you said about Clarence Thomas... I've known a lot of rural black folk who have stuck it out in the South and I have found many of them to be as ignorant as the "rednecks" they live with about worldly things...

I was living on farm back in the last 60's in Montpeleir, Va. in an area that was purdy much black... I'd gotten in purdy good with the family one farm over and would go over there at night an' they'd make a fire outside and we would sit, drink and talk 'bout stuff...

Well, this was when the US had sent a man to the moon and their were pictures on the TV showin' Neil Armstron landin' on the moon and there was this ol' black man over at that other farm that was sayin' the same ignorant stuff I'd just heard at the general store from some white ruarl folks about it being fake???

Man, I'll never forget that night... I was trying to tell this ol' black man that it was fir real and he was spoutin' that same ol' dumb stuff that the white guys were sayin'...

I think this is Clarence Thomas... It ain't just Georgia... It's anywhere in the South where black folks just dug in and tried to get along... Clarence Thomas is still just trying to get along...Problem I have with Clarence Thomas isn't that he's trying to get along but with whom...

His decisions are not world view decisions... They are, excuse me, "Uncle Tom" decisons... He is, IMO, what was once know as a "Porch (house) Negro"... These were the hose servents and the overseeres... They took care of "master" and they also beat the living crud outta "uppity slaves"...

Sorry, that is my view of the man... He's no Thorgood Marshall who stood by the 13th Ammendment...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: GUEST,Natasha Woods
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:06 PM

"So how much interracial contact does Thomas have being the sole spook that sits by the door?"

Now in what context is the word "spook" being used in the above sentence?
There seems to be several definitions of this word:
1. A type of spirit in native American folk lore
2. A colloquial term for a spy
3. An alternative term for a ghost
4. Spook (band), an Australian trip-hop band.
5. Spook: Science Tackles the Afterlife, a book about the afterlife by Mary Roach
6. A racial slur for a black person.
7. A character from The Wardstone Chronicles
I sincerely hope that racial slurs are not acceptable in any discussion here on the Mudcat regardless of who is being discussed. So, if this is the case, I will take it that #6 on the above list is NOT the intended definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town...
From: Dickey
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:19 PM

Another Bobert Inc. stink bomb. To call someone Jim Croa is both bigoted and racist but Bobert does it just to get folks stirred up for a laugh.

"Come listen all you galls and boys,
I'm going to sing a little song,
My name is Jim Crow.
Weel about and turn about and do jis so,
Eb'ry time I weel about I jump Jim Crow."

Jim Crow 1828 +-

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 11:09 PM

Thread name change per frquest from Bobert.
Maybe he's not so Jim Crow as you think....

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 11:19 PM

Bobert can be a real pain in the arse to some folks, but calling him either bigoted or racist is libelous. Best you apologize for that remark. You may strongly disagree with his politics, and that is your prerogative. But you have no place calling him a bigot or a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 11:33 PM

A very progressive school district where I worked was located in a community just over the border from a very poor and very violent section of Chicago... a mostly-black area (to use the language in place at that time). That community (generations of whites) reacted to a sudden influx of African-Americans at a particular point in the town's history by deciding to take on race concerns, head on.

A progressive housing policy was drawn up and VIGOROUSLY supported, decade after decade, by the originally-mostly-white political party in power. The policy openly and aggressively encouraged integrative housing policies and backed them up with extremely progressive school registration policies to continually massage folks together.

In no time at all, people of ALL ethnic backgrounds flocked to this town because it was truly a place where diversity was not only important, but something SO important that people were willing to try new ideas to achieve it. Openly. Persistently. Creatively. I tell you what, it was a thrilling place to live and to work. Not a melting pot. A paella.

Now I can't recall what the formulas and policies were, exactly. I do know that within the very small footprint of that town, busing helped maintain the policies; no one, however, was bused very far because it was, in total, a very small place with a very high population density due to a good mix of apartments and single-family houses on smallish lots-- a lot of people to "juggle." Around the time I was there, they were starting to transform most of the elementary schools into a series of magnet schools-- an arts emphasis here, a science emphasis there, and so forth. With a permissive-transfers policy.

Well, by the time I got into this picture, "diversity" had spread throughout the community. At businesses. At lunch tables. At wedding showers. On school boards. In back yards. Around police and fire personnel. In town gummint. In both active political parties. On 20-30 extremely active town boards and commissions. Not diversity in name only-- friendships, alliances, dynamic partnerships, business opportunities. And "affirmative action" didn't have a thing to do with it. "Affirmative action" LEARNED from it.

Was it perfect, hell no. But people still wanted in on it, into it, to work with it. Multiculturally.


Since this decision came down, my main thought has been, "They must be flipping now." I cannot imagine that they are going to be willing to go backwards. I hope the same creativity and ability to work together that made the town what it became will inform their response, now, and continue to show us the way.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Dickey
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:20 AM

Education, Race 'n Community sounds a lot better, more PC than Jim Crow is back in town. Thanks Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:33 AM

Well, well, looky here! Guest Natasha Woods is back in town!

Natasha, you were right on the money that I meant #6. But perhaps you didn't get my allusion to the novel "The Spook That Sat By The Door", written in 1969 by the African American author Sam Greenlee.

Check out this excerpt from the wikipedia article about that book:

["The Spook That Sat By The Door" is] "A book written by Sam Greenlee in 1969. It was made into a film in 1973. An explosive, award-winning novel in the black literary tradition, "The Spook Who Sat by the Door" is both a satire of the civil rights problems in the United States in the late 1960s and a serious attempt to focus on the issue of black militancy. Dan Freeman, the "spook who sat by the door," is enlisted in the CIA's elitist espionage program as its token black. Upon mastering agency tactics, however, he drops out to train young Chicago blacks as "Freedom Fighters." As a story of one man's reaction to ruling-class hypocrisy, the book is autobiographical and personal. As a tale of a man's reaction to oppression, it is universal.

It also reflects the CIA's odd tradition of giving training to persons and/or groups that later use what they have learned against them".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spook_Who_Sat_By_The_Door

-snip-

Needless to say, I'm not going to waste my energy hoping that Clarence Thomas will see the light, leave neoconservatism behind, and actively work against it by using the powerful legal means at his disposal. But, still, it would be very sweet if that occurred.

**

Btw, Guest Natasha, when's the last time that you took a look see at this thread on children's rhymes that you started? thread.cfm?threadid=102055&messages=37 "Folklore: Play Ground Hand Jives"

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 06:06 PM

Yeah, it would be nice, Mizzi... But it ain't gonna happen because Clarence Thomas is who he is and most foplks don't change, they just get more so...

And, Dickey??? Shame on you, creepo... I ain't no bigot unless having a distinct distaste for ignorant people makes me one... If so, where do I sign up???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 09:51 PM

We first moved to our small Southern town about 6 months before my eldest began kindergarten. We found that a long-closed neighborhood school was being cleaned up and re-opened as a year-round school of choice. Somehow they got this shiny new model ready in this very old building, and my child was in the first class to start bottom up.

Sidebar: Turns out (and this is important later in the story) that the school in a long-ago life was the Black high school in our town, when it was still OK to do that (ancient history? In most of our lifetimes!) There are old movies in our library where you can see the kids at the White school parading, waving, yelling, smiling. Then the filmmaker goes to the Black school, and you mostly see very subdued, serious looking kids hugging their books to their chests and looking down or away from the camera.

In any case, with the dedicated help of some of the neighborhood folks who graduated from that high school, this school became very, very successful. In the beginning, there was a good mix of Black and White families, and a good socio-economic cross-section. There were all KINDS of students there, 'cause no one quite knew what to do with year-round education yet. In so many ways it was a unique and wonderfully nurturing school environment for both of my kids.

But it changed over the years. As it became clear that the school was doing well (highest performing elementary in the district) demand grew, and as it became more difficult to get in, the diverse population became more wealthy (now only 13% 'free and reduced lunch"), and more White. We had moved on by then, so I'm not really sure how that all happened, and it saddens me.

Well, this is where it gets interesting….

Not one block away, there is another school, where the neighborhood kids are naturally assigned unless they opt for year-round and get in. They have nearly 65% "free and reduced lunch", much higher percentage of Black kids, and some of the lowest test scores around.

But here's the thing!! ANY parent in the district can and could have applied to send their child to the year-round school! Those of us who started out there got lucky. I know that the district did a great deal of outreach in the Black and Hispanic communities. The reasons families chose for staying in an underperforming school are a mystery to me, and one that I would like to understand.

So now, faced with the facts of a very successful school, and a very not-successful school, steps away from each other, the Board of Education is struggling with the correct response. They are working on a plan that will merge the two schools into a hybrid model, putting K-1-2 in one building, and 3-4-5 in another.

School Board member 1: "Diversity for diversity's sake is not something I'm on board with."

School Board Member 2: "I'm pleased the board spent the time on the process, eventually articulating that socioeconomic balance is critical to the academic and life success of our school children."

But they need to have the buy-in of the parents to make it all work. It will be very interesting to see what 'buy-in' looks like. And what 'buy-OUT" looks like.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 10:17 AM

I think that if people would pay attention to income rather than to race a lot of animosity would vanish. Income is variable; race is not, Michael Jackson notwithstanding.