ShadowGov-DarkRiders

Subject: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 03:02 PM

so many questions---

who elected these?

how long is the term?

Can we "write to them" when we differ like we do with congress etc., without fearing "retaliation"?

Where are the "checks and balances"? (probably in the balance column before they write themselves another check a-la ENRON.

So many more.

Smacks of overkill to me.

Your thoughts.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 03:53 PM

There is an article explaining some of it here

As long as they can prey on our fears they will do as they like in the name of national security. This whole thing, since Bush took office, has been about scaring the American public and taking away the checks and balances. Instad of uniting us in a positive way, he has the entire nation so fear-filled, he could just about say anything and most would go along with it. Those are the tactics of bullies, of despots, and dictators.

Guess you might've guessed, I ain't happy about it!

kat

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM

Will read that, Kat. Thanks. I do suspect that I'm a bit naive.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 06:43 PM

Kat pretty much covered the bases, Art. In today's Washington Post there is another article about the orchestrated attack by the Republicans on Tom Daschle for daring to ask the question about goals of the war and future operations. None went as far as calling Saschle a traitor but came real close. My own feeling is that the one person who benefited the most from 9-11 is Bush and his coharts. As Kat pointed out, this asministration is going to milk every drop out of this. Every right wing position that I can think of that Bush and others have tried to further is now back on the table now and 9-11 will be used to sell these positions. This is like the dopuble whammy. First 9-11 and now an unelected puppet is beating America as far right as he can, using fear and intimidation as his tools. This is the most dangerous time since Pearl Harbor in the development of this country and, personally, I am more fearful of Bush & Co. than Osoma. And the promotion of peace is not even a goal. We are sitting on out thumbs in the Middle East war. We are offering no reason for hope but plenty for fear and war. And a lot of Bushes contributors stand to get rich by their nasty little world war that they have drawn up on paper, mean while insuring that we are going to bring up yet another generation of folks who are hell bend on revenge that futrue generations will have to clean up. Why is it that after every Repulican administartion the American working class is left holding the bag and has to clean up these greedy peoples messes. Sorry, looks like the ol' bobert got to ranting a bit...

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 08:46 PM

Thanks. Art I didn't mean to imply you weren't up on what you were posting about. I figured you'd probably already read more than I knew.:-) BTW, heard you twice on Wyoming Public Radio, today: Craig Johnson's song North Country and the one about "Jerry go an oil that car!" Everytime they do that I feel like stopping the car, getting out and yelling at people, "Hey! That's my friend on the radio! Ain't he GOOD!!":-)

Back to the serious shit. Sen. Daschle is taking a lot of hits from the GOP who are accusing him of being unpatriotic to question the Bush admin on the war, the "shawdow-government" and other things. I guess they never heard that true patriotism is the courage to question conventional wisdom. Anyway, I figured as Senate Majority Leader and the only most vocal Dem with the balls to speak up, he could probably use some signs of support, so I moseyed over to his site and sent him some fan mail.

Thanks, again, ya'll. Bobert, I think you hit it sqaure on the nailhead, too.

kat

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 09:23 PM

I get the feeling that this is precisely the kind of thing that September 11 was intended to achieve. The system gets subverted in a way that, in the long term, destroys the very things that give it resilience. At the same time the States are set in confrontation with much of the rest of the world.

A few wars and overthrown regimes and dead people, wherever they are and whoever they are, are just pieces to be sacrificed in a long drawn out game.

The goal would be an America turned in on itself, taking on a siege mentality in which much of what makes it special is undermined and eroded, and acting globally in ways that turn friends into neutrals and neutrals into enemies; winning all the battles, but gradually losing the war.

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 10:02 PM

Danged, McGrath! Well put. Thats exactly what happens when folks decide that killin' other folks will solve the differences between people. It won't. Just makes things worse. Yeah, you can win a few battles. Maybe most of 'em but in the end.... you are always going to loose the war. And by Einstien's definition of insanity being "repeating a behavior expecting different results"... this is insane. And this war...is lost. Why? Because there are no other alternatives on the table. Just smarter bombs dropped by stupid people. Like John Lennon said, "Give Peace a Chance." Peace may be more time consuming and involve folks who have only known "win/loose" having to rethink their old thinking, but in the long run, is inevitable if we as earthings are to survive... Nice points, McGrath.

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 10:55 PM

Einstein also said something about not being able to simultaneously prepare for war and expect peace.

And, of course, peace, would require a whole different kind of economy with more equitable share of the wealth, unless the big corporations figured out a way to make it as profitable as war...but I don't think they are smart enough and I DO think they are too lazy to figure that out. It's much easier to stick to the "tried and true."

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 12:03 AM

We are forgetting that the "Big Corporations" are us. We buy and own the stock (that includes most of the voting stock) and expect rich dividends. The Ontario Public Employees are perhaps the biggest single stockholder group in Canada and one of the two largest landlords (in our city, over 1500 miles from the Toronto megapolis; they own 1/3 of all the office highrise and class A business office space here). All this in addition to the stock portfolios.
Their holdings are small potatoes compared to similar employee holdings in the United States. When I was employed by one of the major oil companies, I remember that the pension fund built and owned the company's skyscraper in Houston. I don't know what other holdings they had, but they were large. These stockholders are ordinary paid employees; computer typists, busdrivers to teachers to stockroom clerks to parks employees etc. etc. These are the people that you must convince that change is needed. Company directors act to protect the interests of the stockholders, who, as I say, are us.
Is this the "working class" that you are going on about? I think the term is obsolete, having vanished with the company store, the large mills that used human labor,etc., that we have shipped abroad to the less affluent countries. It takes a real crisis to worry the ordinary public; real deep depression or the like or they will never join together and vote for change.
"I'm all right, Jack." "What, me worry?"

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 12:13 AM

There's something about you, Kat, that I really love... According to the polls, we (you and me...) are in a "Big time" minority. Pretty scarey that there are so many folks caught up in the treadmill of payin' a house payment and keeping the credit cards half paid, that they have to catch the late news to tell them what they're 'sposed to think. "Eighty two percent of Americans think that Gergre Bush is doi...." Oh, so whats what I'm supposed to think. Okay I got it... Used to be that folks actually thought about stuff. Sad to have so many sheep...

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 12:20 AM

It takes a real crisis to worry the ordinary public; real deep depression or the like or they will never join together and vote for change.

Or one or two more Enrons and an Argentina or two.

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 11:50 AM

"Change" isn't always a good thing. It seems to me that the present crisis may have produced a willingness among many people in America to go along with changes that are likely to be disastrous.

It was an appetite for change arising out of social and economic cruises that gave the world Thatcher, Mussolini, Hitler...(I'm not equating them, no call for anyone to accuse me of doing that.)

"Change" is a completely neutral word. All too often it gets used as if the word always implied change for the good. Maybe it's getting to the stage where it's taking on the same loaded meaning as the word "reform", which also in itself should carry a completely neutral meaning. Perhaps we should drop it, in the political context, and use the term "alterations" instead.

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 12:15 PM

BBC Radio 4's Broadcasting House programme tackled this subject this morning - are the measures being taken in the aftermath of 9/11 ultimately counter-productive?

Bobert, it's good to know that we share common concerns on both sides of the Atlantic,

Kitty

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 02:26 PM

Ol' Bobert, the feelin's mutual, darlin'. I also think Dicho brought up a good point; the government, by and large, is US, but, those at the top are not, imo. They are the elite, big money corporate cats (now that seems to be a real slur on felines!) who have Bush in their pockets. Dicho is right, though, it is the rank and file who have to be convinced otherwise. Geeziz, I keep getting the feeling I'd better start doing those op/ed pieces, again! Dammit!*bg*

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 07:11 PM

And how does one get the "shadow government" to step down when it seems obvious to most that ought to be the way to go?
Turning a very bright light on the situation might do it---but I'm not holding my breath.

The "dark riders" I referred to in this threads title are the nine NAZGUL fom Tolkien's good books.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 07:35 PM

ORCS even sounds like the acronym for a governmental agency.

Office for Restoring Civic Security, perhaps.

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 07:53 PM

There's actually been a shadow government for a long time, but it's becoming more extreme and more blatant than every before, and that's why you're hearing about it. The men you vote for are merely its errand boys, and they only last if they do what they are told to do.

- LH

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 11:14 PM

Oh, Kevin, that was good! Damn! Just finally got to see Lord of the Ring, yesterday, brought it all back to me!

Good call, Art, nine riders, indeed.

My brother has been reading about the "shadow" government for years, in odd books msot people don't know about. It is said that even certain presidents were told to lay off certain investigations/questionings if they wanted to survive their terms.

So, is this where the left join up with the right in the gov. conspiracy shit and have a revolution? Ugh....can't think of anything I'd hate worse. The latter would want Armageddon and the former would want to turn weapons into plowshares. Which leaves the ones in the middle, looking for balance.

I've even heard theories about cell phones being cheap and easy to use as an enticement towards "them" having that much more control over the populace, and this is from people I do not consider extreme. They also cite the discount cards which grocery stores track one's purchases with. Makes one want to head for the hills, eh?

kat

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: GUEST,Coyote Breath - opinionated as all get out
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM

The song "Pharaoh" by the House Band has, if I recall correctly, a line which says; "Hidden from the eye of chance the men of shadow dance a dance, we're all stuck into a trance, we're all working for the Pharaoh"

CB

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 11:45 PM

Yep, the King's men and all of that.

BTW, I didn't mean to imply there is anything wrong, imo, with turning weapons into plowshares, but you probably already knew that about me.:-)

HeyaCoyoteBreath...just had a nice phone call from our mutual friends. Good to see you around here.

kat

Subject: RE: ShadowGov-DarkRiders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 06:25 AM

Near where I live there's the Secret Nuclear Bunker where the British Government was planning to hole up in case of Nuclear War. They decided it was surplus to requirements a few years ago, and let it go back to the farmer on whose property it had been built.

So there are big signs by the side of the road to Brentwood saying "Come and see the Secret Nuclear Bunker."

Anyway, I imagine this is much the same kind of set-up as the ones these ORCS live in. Maybe a little less plush. Click on here and you get to make a virtual tour of the place.

It's fascinating actually to go round it, and fairly chilling. It's got a little TV studio, with a mock-up of Maggie Thatcher talking to the nation, if it had come to that, and there is a picture of that on the site.

Last autumn there were stories in the paper about people renting accommodation in the bunker just in case...