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BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
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Subject: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Pied Piper Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:23 AM Ok it's like this. Jesus a perfect man (born without original sin) and the Son of God, comes to earth to teach and to atone, one for one, for the original sin if Adam by taking on punishment due to Adam, death. By doing this he cancels Adams debt and we can all go to heaven. We'll ignore the fact that Eve's original sin doesn't count (after all she's only a woman) To believe this scenario you have to believe the Biblical account of the Garden of Eden, and that we are all descended from this one real human being Adam. Since we know that modern humans evolved from other animals in Africa and that the above story is incorrect, the whole basses of Christianity is flawed. Or put another way you cannot be a Christian and accept the overwhelming evidence for Evolution. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Amos Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:25 AM Jesus Christ, Do you REALLY want to clutter up another part of this zoo with more of this specious claptrap? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: GUEST Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:27 AM ah yes.. but who created evolution..? see.. gotcha there... God, right ! ....errrrrrrrrm.. but what did he evolve from..??? oh **** I'm confused again now |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Pied Piper Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:28 AM As usual Amos, a well though out and cogent analysis of the issues involved. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Jim Tailor Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:30 AM actually, the premise of the thread, while I'm sure is well-meaning, is ignorant. All man, by evolutionary means OR by creation, are decendants of a single set of parents. That's why we are of one race. What you have presented are the "facts" of human origin as understood by such illuminated groups as the KKK and Arian Nation. Have a zany day! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: MaineDog Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:32 AM When you play basketball, the rules of baseball do not apply |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Pied Piper Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:32 AM PLEASE not Paley's Watch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: GUEST,bright is right,but word 'bright' is shite Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:33 AM "Do you REALLY want to clutter up another part of this zoo with more of this specious claptrap?" Happy clappertrap ?????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:34 AM Thanks, Pied Piper. You've convinced me. I'm giving it all up. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Pied Piper Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:39 AM Not true Jim. We are all descended from a very small number of people that lived in Africa about 200,000 years ago therefore we are all one "race". My point is that we are not all descended from one man called Adam that committed original sin. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Amos Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:43 AM Sorry for the bit of bad temper, PP. Trying to assess the issues of Christianity as a religion with the tools of logic is an endless, self-feeding and ultimately fruitless endeavour, something like a gerbil's treadmill. Those who subscribe are not about to pay the rationale any mind, and those who don't aren't in the religion to begin with, and aren't about to be converted by logic, Aquinas notwithstanding. Furthermore, there is a guaranteed element that will produce contention and divisive perspective in any discussion that is started with a logical attack on what some hold sacred. So I don't see a lot of merit in the discussion, because the premises are ill-chosen. Is that better, old pal? No hurt feelings, I hope? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Pied Piper Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:45 AM Thanks Amos; I'll survive. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:52 AM Arguing religion AND race in the same thread, now THAT will be fun. Let's put it ALL in, all the usual Mudcat squabble: Abortion The Irish Stuff Guns Guests Censorship Religion Race US Foreign Policy Purism And What IS Folk Anyway????? Can someone please draft some diametrically-opposing paragraphs reducing all of these at once, to simple, sweeping statements that we can argue with? Hurry up, Mudcat may go back down at any moment. And to think I was about to explore some MUSIC threads! Thanks PP for saving me from THAT! I'm saved! Hm I thought I gave that up.... Oh well! No need for a brain around HERE! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Mooh Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:54 AM No sir. I certainly can be a Christian and accept evolution. Most Christians probably doubt certain elements of their faith and their God. What makes me a Christian isn't the original sin/Adam beliefs but the teachings of Christ. That I can accept that other stuff metaphorically might be a personal test of faith, but not a test which hinders my faith. Btw, what's with this and Georgiansilver's recent threads? Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Big Mick Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:56 AM Why are we even responding to this troll? Especially those among us who are "in the business"? You have just made this person's day. Congratulations. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Bat Goddess Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:21 AM Anybody ever read "We Are the Other People" by Oberon Zell? Here's a quick quote -- "Cain left the presence of Yahweh and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. We can assume that the phrase "left the presence of Yahweh" implies that Yahweh is a local deity, and not omnipresent. Now Eden, according to (Gen. 2:14-15), was situated at the source of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, apparently right where Lake Van is now, in Turkey. "East of Eden," therefore, would probably be along the shores of the Caspian Sea, right in the Indo-European heartland. Cain settled in there, among the people of Nod, and married one of the women of that country. Here, for the first time, is specifically mentioned the "other people" who are not of the lineage of Adam and Eve. i.e: the Pagans" Linn |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: mack/misophist Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:34 AM Damn! Bat Goddess beat me to it. We preterite are the scions of Cain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:34 AM Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwn, you bored brother John ......... Yep, me too |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Bill D Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:39 AM ah, Pied Piper...it is awkward indeed when I sort of agree with your final conclusion, (that the theology involved doesn't convince me), but must disagree with your reasoning. The simple point is, there are other possibilities than the ones you note. In fact, many Christians do not take the Adam & Eve story 'literally'...whereas, you still are. It is possible to reconcile, logically, evolution and religion by simply claiming that God designed evolution and set it in motion..etc..etc... And beyond that, there is growing **scientific** evidence that the human race was reduced to a VERY small band about 55,000 years ago, due to a global catastrophe...and that we may indeed by all descended from one...or just a few, of those survivors. Beyond even that, it is seriously speculated that 5-6 million years ago, our 'line' that broke off from early primates started from just one female. Whether our early ancestors could 'sin' or not is another question...*wry grin* I, personally, do not accept the concept of "original sin", or that it even makes sense that all generations must pay for the errors of one person..etc...but I'm sorry--your analysis has as many problems as what you are trying to disprove, since you don't allow for all the possibilities. It just ain't that simple.......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: GUEST,Observer Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:16 AM Where did those folks in the land of Nod come from? There was just Adam, and Eve, and their sons, no? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Sorcha Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:26 AM From Winkin' and Blinkin'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Jim Tailor Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:29 AM "Where did those folks in the land of Nod come from? There was just Adam, and Eve, and their sons, no?" ...by Biblical accounts, Adam and Eve both lived to the ripe old age of 900+ years -- as did most of the people (alas, not Abel) that lived before the flood. As Adam and Eve reproduced at a reasonable rate through much of those 900+ years, the "sisters" from whom Cain had to draw were a small town's worth... ...but also, there is no mention in the account that Cain and Abel were the first-born -- just the first mentioned. As the rest of their siblings were also living to 900+ years of age, and reproducing at a reasonable rate in a world without birth control, Cain likely had great-great nieces his own age (as if THAT matters) from which to choose -- especially when the age of maturity probably still allowed for teen-age girls to bear children -- and that's likely to happen in a world without Television or Nintendo -- what else you gonna do but screw? Implausible? Yes, but don't forget -- that "Eve" to whom both BillD and I refer above, also, of necessity, bred with VERY close relatives. It's not the inbreedin' portion of the culture that's implausible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: GUEST,Observer Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:31 AM Well, ask a silly question.... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: M.Ted Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:45 AM I thought you had found a flaw in St. Thomas Aquinas," Summa Theologica"-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: GUEST,Observer Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:57 AM Another silly question. How did Noah get all the animals on the ark? And six weeks' worth of food? And who did the cleaning? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Jim Tailor Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:05 PM answer as given to me... most species of animals on the earth are aquatic (or insect). That takes care of them - they either don't need the safety of the ark or are VERY small. Reptiles of all kinds that needed the safety of the ark were taken as young as possible -- that way they would be small. Many animals, as we currently know them in their diverse states, still are the same animal after adaptation -- wolves to dogs, all horses, etc. Clean-up and feeding was aided by the "fact" that God caused all to "sleep" throughout the time. Some of this according to the account, other according to what I was told. I'm not vouching for the plausibility, just answering the question as asked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Peace Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:09 PM For the facts on Noah's Ark, please see Bill Cosby. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: GUEST,Observer Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:29 PM Fascinating, Jim Tailor. Ingenuity is a wonderful thing. Now I'll try to discover how all of the species of animals that did get on the ark got from the Arctic, Antarctic, the Cape of Good Hope, Japan and so forth so promptly. They didn't all live in the Holy Land because so many, penguins and polar bears, and dwellers in thick forests for example, can only survive in certain environments. Of course, these species could have EVOLVED since then. What a puzzle! How they all fit is still up for grabs, though - and the insects! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:33 PM And who did the cleaning? dingdingdingding WE HAVE A PRIZEWINNER!!!!!!!!! Silliest question of all time. Obviously that would have been Mrs. Noah! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Amos Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:35 PM If God is running a "suspended animation" number I'm going back to Chariots of the Gods!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Bill D Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:46 PM read the recent findings about the Bosphorus, the Dardanelles, the Black Sea and earthquake induced floods....here and at other sites.(a google search on bosphorus + dardanelles + noah will give you LOTS of ideas about how such a story could have gotten famous. Archeology may yet solve many of the historical confusions about how a flood could seem "world wide"...if your world is small, and everything you see is under water, but YOU survived on a shed roof with a few animals...you might embroider the story a bit, too... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Jim Tailor Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:48 PM again, the only difference between those animals that are now "arctic" and those that are from more temperate zones is simply adaptation. -- incidentally, that's not an arguement from the creationists. That's just the way it is. If you want the more implausible "rest of the story" -- many of the creationists who hold to a literal flood story also postulate that the entire earth topography and atmosphere was different pre-flood. For that reason, less of the adaptation that we've witnessed in the thousands of years "after the flood" occurred before it. Hold me closer Tony Danza Count the headlice on the highway |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:23 PM I think the logicians would call the first message in this thread argumentum ad absurdum. You take part of your opponent's position, redefine it to the point where it is absurd, and then argue against it and revel in your victory. The first message is a misleading and simplistic definition of Christian belief. Many Christians and Jews see the creation story of Genesis as an allegory, not as scientific fact. It's wonderful folklore, told in two very colorful ways. It points to a deeper belief - that however this wonderful world came to be, it came about through the power and love of a supreme, loving power. While humans are wonderful creatures, they have flaws that cause them to tend to want to destroy one another. There is another Way, however, to live on the earth with love and justice, something that is beyond the nature of humans - super-natural, if you will. Christians believe that through the love of that supreme power, there was one God-man who lived the Way, and is the Way - and that we can live the Way, too. Part of the story of the God-man is shrouded in myth - not untruth, but a myth that points to profound truth. Others define and live the Way differently, and Christians need to accept and understand that, and to learn from those others. Remember that this is belief, the way that one large group of people ponder this mystery that surrounds us - life, love, and all the rest of it. This is not a rational explanation - it is a perspective from which one develops an understanding. The first message may define the faith of a smal number of extreme fundamentalists, but it certainly doesn't come close to describing what most Christians believe. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Amos Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:59 PM Now yer talking, Joe Offer. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: annamill Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:32 PM or, maybe Adam was a monkey!! That would explain him looking down at himself, seeing himself naked and running off to hide in shame. Monkeys are ugly naked! Now, if it had been my husband looking down and seeing himself naked, all he would of done was say "Cool" and relaxed. (he's a surfer) But, of course, we all know Man was made in God's image...hmmm... Great answers Susan ;-) LOL Love, Annamill (just havin' fun) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Sorcha Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:35 PM T shirt slogan: I can't believe in evoloution. If it were true we'd all be smarter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: GUEST,Observer Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:37 PM Sorcha, shouldn't that be "wuz"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Don Firth Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:13 PM I don't know if the "Straw Man" argument is in Aristotle's official list of fallacies, but since his time, logicians have made carefully vetted additions to the list. The "Straw Man" argument is where someone makes a caricature of the what he wishes to attack, and then attacks it. Of course it falls apart. It was constructed to fall apart. Proves nothing. I keep hearing that "Christians believe this," or Christians believe that" from people who proudly point out that they don't go to church. So where did they learn what Christians (or for that matter, Jews or Muslims) believe? They often tend to fasten on a piece of the Christian myth and assume that this is what Christians literally believe. True enough, some Christians, generally those of the fundamentalist or non-deep-thinking variety do often believe that the mythology is literally true. But it is building a straw man to assume that all, or even most Christians do not understand the difference between fact and metaphor, then attack all Christians on that basis. Joseph Campbell pointed out that religion—all religions—are full of myth and metaphor, and that although the myths are not factually true, they contain truth in the form of a lesson or principle. Where a religion goes wrong is when its adherents confuse fact with metaphor. They miss the lesson, get tangled up in niggling detail, and go off the rails. The same is true of the critics of religion. They usually attack the mythology by saying "It's just not true!" Okay, sure. Not factually true, but that's not the point. Example: Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan. In his teachings, Jesus said that you should "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Someone asked him, "And who is my neighbor?" [For those who never went to Sunday school or who played hooky] In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"Jesus told this story as an example; a "for instance." The lesson he's trying to get across is abundantly clear. But if someone who reads this starts wondering about just who, exactly, was this Samaritan, what he was doing on the road, which way he was going, toward Jericho or toward Jerusalem, what his name was—and what he looked like—then argues endlessly over these details, it's damned pretty evident that the reader has totally missed the point of what Jesus was trying to say. But you don't believe that Jesus even existed, you say? Okay, as far as Christian teaching about how one should live a moral, ethical live is concerned, it doesn't really matter. Let me give you another parable—from a popular television show: Lieutenant Worf is bitterly disappointed when he learns that the man he thought was Kahless, the Klingon messiah, was not Kahless at all, but a clone of Kahless. When he expresses his disillusionment, the clone of Kahless says, "But if the words are true, what does it matter who says them" Don Firth P. S.: Once again, my disclaimer: do not assume from what I've posted here that you know what I believe or do not believe. I'm still working that out myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Jim Tailor Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:27 PM Don, I agree with your post (above) SO much, that I really hate to point out (because it makes me feel like an ungracious bore) that, even within it is contained the very thing it so brilliantly warns against. "True enough, some Christians, generally those of the fundamentalist or non-deep-thinking variety do often believe that the mythology is literally true." Is written in just such a way as to assume fundamentalists are non-deep-thinking (to have the other interpretation the word "variety" would have to be duplicated before each class). Further, that other's characterization/definition of even the word "literal" has been made for, not by, the fundamentalist -- when it is that very definition which marks the difference between thoughtful and un. I can assure you that I know MANY thoughtful, deep-thinking people who would still consider themselves "fundamentalists". Have a fine day! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: robomatic Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:09 PM My religious upbringing does not include Original Sin. However, i've run into it again and again since I get into conversations a lot like this thread that I've tried to put my own cast on it. We want to be good, but we already contain some evil. (Like Yin and Yang, everything contains within itself a portion of the opposite). Most of us believe the foundation of the United States to be a wonderful thing, but it wouldn't have happened without a compromise that included slavery. I know there is also a sexual component to Original Sin among Christians (maybe in light of Don's post I should properly say, I THINK I know...). I ignore that part. There is a Jewish approach to evil inherent in the beginning. It comes straight from God: Deuteronomy 30:15 states: See, I [God] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil. Followed by an admonition, therefore choose good that you may live. I love the immediacy of 'this day'. From that day to this each human being has the capacity (necessity? burden?) of choice. And like Don, I can't resist a Star Trek parable: The episode where the crew is captivated by a paradise planet, (the feel good spores). As they are leaving at the end of the episode Kirk observes "maybe we were not meant to live in Eden. We were meant to 'fight our way out'. Which I fully subscribe to. I think if we'd stayed in Eden God wouldn't been disappointed and what is worse, bored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Don Firth Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:38 PM Point taken, Jim. But note the word the word "or." ". . . fundamentalist or non-deep-thinking variety. . . ." I left that open. Perhaps that should have been "and/or." I did not intend to imply that fundamentalists are necessarily ipso facto unintelligent or non-deep-thinking. I do know a few fundamentalists (e.g., an aeronautical engineer I worked with at Boeing) whom I consider deep-thinking in most areas of their lives, but it's my personal contention that they have selective blinders on when it comes to matters of religion. They are logical and evidence-oriented in everything. But they regard the Bible as literal history and, therefore, incontrovertible evidence for what they believe. Since it is The Bible, they disconnect their critical faculties in a way that they never would never with any other written and presumably factual work. Re: "Literal." I have had fundamentalists say to me specifically, "Yes, what the Bible says is literally true," emphasizing the word "literally." They have said to me that the Bible is the "literal Word of God." So I don't see that I have used a word that they don't use themselves, or used it in a way that they don't themselves. Hang in there. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Justa Picker Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:52 PM The only thing that makes any sense to me, is that EVERY SINGLE LIVING THING on this planet, are transplants [sic] extraterrestrials, placed here a long time ago. The rest of it frankly makes no sense to me, since if there is only 1 God, why so many different ways to worship that Deity - with each faction thinking theirs is the only true path? All this just so we can try and come to terms with our mortality? Nah. Religion is the biggest hoax ever perpetuated on mankind, i.m.o. Take God and Religion out of the equation and the vast history of human suffering would have had to find another excuse for its cause. Also if the "Messiah" has already come, then why is the world on the brink of Armageddon? Human beings by nature are the most violent animals on the planet. In many countries and instances, it's all we can do just to keep ourselves from killing each other. I thought the Messiah was supposed to "elimate" all this? Weapons turned into plow shares and all that b.s. Now back to your regularly scheduled |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: GUEST,Frank Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:00 PM I think that true Christians follow the teachings of Jesus and don't get hung up in the details. The King James Bible is an attempt to appease different and coflicting interprations of scripture at that time. Different interpretations are read into it now. Still conflicting. The teachings of Jesus are illuminated by The Sermon on the Mount and very few Christians followor practice it. Joe Campbell says that because of this, Christianity in accordance with Jesus' teachings is a pacifist religion. Pacifism is incorrectly interpreted as a passivism. In fact, pacifism is a highly proactive way of life and encompasses non-violent resistance. That's what Jesus did. That's why they felt they had to get rid of him Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Donuel Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:03 PM by Bill Moyers http://www.rense.com/general62/MAINS.HTM |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Clinton Hammond Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:14 PM the flaw in any organised religion is the people who buy into it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: robomatic Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:20 PM My last line in my last post should have read: I think if we'd stayed in Eden God would've been disappointed and what is worse, bored. Meanwhile, a great book about the translation of Bible into English is: "Wide As The Waters" By Benson Bobrick. You won't think so much of "A Man For All Seasons" after reading it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Amos Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:50 PM Original sin is a proposition that goes back lifetimes upon lifetimes. Originally, not a sin, but a confusion which then became sinful, in my view. FWIW. And Justa Picker's ET explanation sure seems interesting to me. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Jim Tailor Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:56 PM Anyone who plays a guitar like Justa Picker just might be an ET. Understandable theory coming from him. Ella and F. Scott. Who knew? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:20 PM Pied Piper, ol' pal, there are SO many flaws in Christian theology that you could write a book the size of the Bible about them! :-) And that goes for the Muslim and Jewish theologies too. And most other theologies. It also goes for our common political and social and economic theories too...but that's a whole other subject. Or is it? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:19 PM I have to teach about original sin in many of the classes I've taught in the Catholic parishes where I've worked. I say that there's something wrong with this world, something that needs to be healed. As long as that wrongness hasn't been healed, we're all responsible for it, all bound to do what we can to make it better. We all could do a little better, so we all have to share responsibility for that wrong - poverty, war, oppression - whatever. And yes, it takes more than natural people to deal with that wrong - that's where super-natural help comes in. I hope (and I believe) that we all have a bit of the supernatural in us, because this world really needs it. I understand a mayor of Hamburg described it this way: "to the extent that I take pride in being German, I have to take responsibility for the harm that Germany has done." I think that applies to all humankind. -Joe Offer- |
