BS: What is The American Way of Life?

Subject: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:16 AM

I keep hearing politicians, advertisers and the like refer to The American Way of Life and assume that every American must know what this is. As a non-American can you enlighten me? As a left-wing, radical, atheist, gun-hating, peace-loving environmentalist, fundamentally opposed to the death penalty, is there anything in The American Way of Life that I could identify with?

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:47 AM

cheat lie, steal by force of arms.....

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:20 AM

From correspondence with several American friends across the pond, I think kindness, hospitality, humour and sincerity also spring to mind. I can live with those things.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:56 AM

Well, Leveller, while I am not pro-American in general, I think you could find virtues in the US constitution. It is widely admired.

Again, while it has its sinister aspects, the American Entertainment industry has in some respects enriched many of our lives, and its alter ego probably gave us the protest song as an art-form. Oh, and there are Marvel comics and descendants.

And while the US legal system has many vices, there appears to be a deep-rooted attachment to the rule of law (despite the Shrub's attempts to get round it or dismantle it).

I have greatly admired the American muscle cars, although you may not. They stirred the blood in a way that more refined European performance cars did not. And of course the USA probably gave us the production line car industry, without which our horizons would be much more local.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:18 AM

I can also live with blues, ragtime, gospel, early country music, rockabilly, rock'n roll and jazz - all of which have wafted their way across the water. Getting to grips with American folk songs in the early 60s was, ironically, the key that opened the door for me to the traditional music of these islands.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:04 AM

Thanks anonymous guest. I particularly like:

"It affirms the supreme value and dignity of the individual"

and

"We are different because our government and our way of life are not based on the divine right of kings, the hereditary privileges of elites,"

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:34 AM

Ironically, I believe that the American way fundamentally fails to affirm the supreme value and dignity of the individual, subordinating them to wealth. Hence the general antipathy in the USA to inheritance taxes and the marked creation in the USA of ologopolistic hereditary elites.

I don't think that anyone much has believed in the divine right of kings since the 1600s.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:19 AM

The concept of the divine right of kings pretty much ended on the block on January 30th 1649.
It's just a shame that so many of the republican ideas that were around in the momentous days that followed eventually found that the most fertile soil was on the far side of the Atlantic. It would be nice to think that one day the ideals of Lilburne, Overton, Walwyn and Winstanley could flourish in their home turf.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:22 AM

There's No Way Like The American Way

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:34 AM

"It would be nice to think that one day the ideals of Lilburne, Overton, Walwyn and Winstanley could flourish in their home turf. "

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:51 AM

Most of the Americans I know (and I work with a few) seem to live the way we do in the UK, with a few differences due to climate, tax and health systems, legal and political systems etc. But in the main, they're like us, and they like what we like, they have similar values as us. Just people who speak with a different accent. IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:57 AM

Good picture, Bobad

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:19 AM

Most of the Americans I know (and I work with a few) seem to live the way we do in the UK, with a few differences due to climate, tax and health systems, legal and political systems etc. But in the main, they're like us, and they like what we like, they have similar values as us. Just people who speak with a different accent.

As a Brit living in the USA I would agree with you there BW. There does seem to be more overt patriotism here, with the Stars and /stripes being more in evidence on private homes.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:29 AM

Of course, we know that all English are football louts; lecherous, peasant-raping, lords, or brolly-carrying bankers who eat beans for breakfast, kippers anytime, and swill down bad tea by the Imperial gallon while queuing for the National Health Service. They also talk and spell funny and all the women look like the Spice Girls.

You really shouldn't get your opinions of others from the media.

I live in the American West of dime-novel fame, where Butch Cassidy (real name: Robert Leroy Parker), Boone Helm, mountain men, and the Oregon Trail all traveled. Not very far away are the sites of various Indian fights, including the Little Big Horn.

114 people here lost their jobs to environmental litigation a couple days ago; the group heading the litigation call them "unfortunate by-products of litigation." Nobody has strapped on a .44 and gone hunting the insensitive lout, thought -- instead, the Greater Yellowstone Coalition has lost all support in the Greater Yellowstone Area.

In fact, the last murder here was Tuesday. In the true, Old West style a guy beat his father-in-law to death with a piece of wood. Of course, the guy who did it has been charged with murder and is currently in jail, held without bond or bail.

Sure, there are stereotypes and nutcases. I'd no more let them assume my view of "The Amemrican Way Of Life" than I assume all Scotsmen wear the kilt or no one in France bathes.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:34 AM

It depends on the American, of course; much of it involves cars, and love.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:37 AM

"You really shouldn't get your opinions of others from the media"

Rapaire, that's exactly why I'm asking what The American Way of Life is. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:03 AM

Theleveller, "The American Way of Life" is a cliche.

It is weird for me to be discussed as a stereotype. This reminds me of the threads that are discussions of men or women as stereotypes. jacqui pretty much gave you the appropriate response.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:13 AM

Rapaire, you forgot about the bad teeth, a la Austin Powers.

It would be nice to think that one day the ideals of Lilburne, Overton, Walwyn and Winstanley could flourish in their home turf.

On any turf for that matter.

There really is no "American Way of Life". Americans are more diverse than anyone with many multitudes of ways of life. If anything it might mean the right to have multitudinous ways of life, but usually it is a meaningless shorthand that politicians use. I'm sure your PMs
and Mps etc. are just as guilty of mouthing platitudes as our politicos.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:28 AM

If you go to Wikipedia and read the entry for the phrase "American Way of Life", you will get some history of how this phrase has been used, especially during the Cold War.

But, as I said, it is a cliche.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:35 AM

Gandhi said it with a beautiful sense of irony when he visited England in the 1930's. A journalist asked: " what do you think of Western civilization, Mr. Gandhi?" He replied: " I think that would be an excellent idea."

Some say: people are the same where ever you go, however, I lived the first half of my life in SE Pennsylvania, the second half in Canada (various places) and now working on the third half - 8 years in SE PA, and the last 2+ in the Pacific NW.

I miss the gentler Canadian "way of life" tremendously and rue the day I left - second biggest mistake of my life. (my marriage) There are different attitudes in the NW than in PA . This is, for me, an easier place to live, esp here on the south end of Whidbey Island which is, qualitatively, very different than the north end!

The "American way of life" ? Like any other "group" - ask ten people and get ten dif answers. People are, individually, the same every where, depending on the depth of connection. But as a group??? Which group where? On mudcat, there seems to be, mostly, the same sorts I delight in here on Whidbey - but up the road 25 miles is a different world. I would dislike it there as much as I did SE PA.

Everyone is correct - it is like the blind men and the elephant!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

If it's a cliche, why is it used so much? The reason I started this thread is that I was listening to a discussion of environmental issues on BBC Radio 4 this morning and they played the soundtrack from an American TV commercial for Clean Coal which referred to preserving TAWOL. So, I assumed that it was some tangible concept that all Americans knew about.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM

Well, I had a long response, but clicked the wrong thing and lost it.

I don't think that you can have one "way of life" that encompasses over 300 million people. Certainly, "American Way of Life" is a term often used by some politicians and TV commentators. If I had to describe what I think that means, to me, I'd say it is the right to live as I wish, with limited outside interference, subject to the rights of others. We have a saying that "your rights end where mine begin".

Theleveler describes himself as a left-wing, radical, atheist, gun-hating, peace-loving environmentalist, fundamentally opposed to the death penalty. He would fit in fine with the very large number of Americans who think exactly the same way, although we may not really have a "left-wing" as that term is defined in the UK and Europe in general, and many of us tend to reserve "radical" for the nuts on the right. We also mix things up a lot - that is, it's as common to find gun-hating Christians as gun-hating atheists, and gun-loving environmentalists are pretty normal.

I'm not sure what an oligopolistic hereditary elite is. Sure, if grandpa made a pile of money, that might still be in the family, but the grandson is more likely to work full time for the family foundation giving it away than living like we think the idle rich do in the UK. Family foundations are the way we (but not me - I will never be wealthy) avoid inheritance taxes, which are very high in the US - or at least we think 45% to the Federal government plus whatever the states take (they are all different) is high.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:43 AM

Lots of cliches are used "so much"!!!!! Go to Wikipedia, as I said.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM

"What is The American Way of Life"

it depends on where you live in the U.S.A.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:00 AM

The term "clean coal" is an oxymoron. But not everyone has discovered this verite. It came to me in a flash of light while visiting the local office of our congressman and made it into the local rag. Spread the word!

Cliches are, by definition, used a lot! Maybe people want to believe them?

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:07 AM

theleveller, many Americans would probably quote the Declaration of Independence and say it is "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". But if you read this, wiki - American way of life,
you will see that it has been used in so many ways, from Superman comics, cold war media campaigns, the Simpsons cartoons, wiki even describing it as Woody Guthrie songs, that the cliche is colored by the intent of whoever is using it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:46 AM

Right, I think I'm getting it now. If, whenever it's mentioned, you were substitute the phrase "your way of life", would that be right?

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:48 AM

Not sure what you mean by that.
It is used in satire probably as much as not these days.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:49 AM

I think no matter what State you live in, or if you are from the country or from the city, or what your background is, or what country or culture your family originally came from, if you want to know what is the American way of life, just have a look at our Constitution and the "Bill of Rights"

that is the common thread that binds all Americans together

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:55 AM

Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM

In general, we try to use the best of technology and organizational knowhow to get things done, but we have deep soft-spots for teddy bears, sensitive blondes, suffering independent-minded noble cowboys and woods-savvy Indians, as well as market-savvy inventors.

We are very fond of driving, lively music, and central heating and multiple bathrooms per house where possible. We believe strongly in hot and cold running water and having enough outlets. We are fond of supermarkets and long walks by the sea. We are in love with love.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

LOL Amos, is that the eharmony online dating profile for America? LOL LOL

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

by the way, for those who don't know, "outlets" are electrical plug-in sockets

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

I've been in 42 of the 50 states, and I can guarantee that for some, "The American way of life" means to them the Mississippi way, or the Montana way or the Maine way.....while for others it just means basic freedom and opportunity.

Just read the page Alice linked to, and imagine how hard it is to get a clear answer in a country this large and populated by so many different ethnic groups for 200++ years.

The cliché was used to compare 'us' to 'them' during times of turmoil.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:24 AM

Amos
LOL you forgot reading poems out loud and puppies

Where is SPAW ... I know he has the right answer

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:27 AM

I think self-criticism is a big part of it. We love creature comforts, but are fond of "roughing it". We love to buy all of the things the TV sells us, but whine about our own materialism. We want everyone to be able to live free of convention, but complain about the lack of religious guidance in our lives. We want the government to stay out of our private lives, but we endorse wiretapping to enhance our safety. We sell "the American Way of Life" all over the world, and are horrified when the Chinese strive for it.

To me, Daniel Boone was the quintessential American. He was a free spirited man who loved nature, indigenous people, and wilderness, yet continued throughout his life to develop land, fight Indians, and settle the frontier. As he moved West, he sought the things that he loved, and often replaced them with things he didn't. He was driven by a strong sense of what is right, but usually regretted his actions, because they rarely lived up to his ideals.
There is a statue of Boone standing in a park in St Louis. He is dressed in buckskin, shouldering his long rifle, and looking west into a sprawl of concrete buildings.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:32 AM

The cold war "the American Way" versus "Communism" is now what many people think of when they hear the cliche. If you read that wiki page, you will notice the satire of the Simpson's song. It is often used in satire to make fun of people who would be the self righteous in America who pontificated against Communism during the cold war.
It was also what the founders of the multi-level marketing scheme Amway based the name of the business.
See... now when you can also connect it to the meaning of many of Woody Guthrie's songs about the lives of Americans (This Land Is Your Land... etc.) you can see that the meaning of the phrase is all in the intent of who is using it.

Mostly I think it is now seen as a phrase to satire self-righteousness.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:32 AM

LOL!! Lonesome, that last sentence is an amazing epithet, the quintessential picture of American idealism stuck at the turn of the eighteenth century!! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:46 AM

I know we Americans like to say that we don't have a class system in the US - but of course, we know that is not true. We speak very comfortably of upper class, middle class, lower class- although by that we are referring mainly to money or the lack of it.

(In addition to the above mentioned classes, we also have 'poor white trash', 'inner city gangs' and 'the very rich', in which class we tend to put 'celebrities' and 'sports heroes'.)

On the other hand, our class system is not cut in stone. It is entirely possible to go from one to another (and back again).

Some American ways of life are distilled in the city of Juneau, Alaska. We have less overt class bias than anyplace I've been, and the city has a tradition of inclusiveness.

Typifying this, in my opinion, is this story:

I was the docent caretaker of a house museum. One day a tourist came in and over a cup of tea he said, "I've got to tell someone this. As it happens I'm a lawyer and while I was romaing around today I went inside your District Court building.

"See this t-shirt? This surfing scene is of Hawaii in one of the spots that haven't been found yet, for the most part.

"Anyway, this guy in a suit and tie rushed up to me and said, "I've surfed there!"

"So we talked and finally he invited to come have a coffee with him so we could talk some more.

"And we introduced ourselves. It was Justice of the Alaska Supreme Court Carpeneti. He didn't know I'm a lawyer.

"That would not have happened at home."

So I would postulate that included in the "American Way of Life" is the ideal of individual worth.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

Ebbie's example is the way the phrase would be used as it would describe Woody Guthrie songs - EQUALITY - (see the wiki link).

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

Check out Annie Oakley -- the real one, not the one in the musical comedy. She was five feet tall and began shooting to supply food and money to her family. Born in 1860 she died in 1926. The time between was and is part of "the American Way."

Here's my "American Way" so far today:

Awakened too early at 0544, picked up and turned on my cell phone, did a finger stick for blood sugar, ate breakfast, went downstairs to my office and checked my email, the weather, the news, and MC. Came back up, gathered the trash and put it out for collection. Got my clothes ready, took a shower, brushed my teeth, shaved, dressed, and drove to work; on the way my wife called from Back East In Philadelphia. Called a guy about the external design for the bookmobile we'll be getting soon, then had a meeting with three of staff and asked them to design the design.

So far today I haven't raped, burned or pillaged even though I'm a veteran; I haven't had any shoot-outs in the streets and high noon is reserved for lunch (IF I'm out of the dentist's office by then); apart from stepping on an ant when I took out the trash I haven't rampaged through the environment any more than I do any other day.

Home, work, maybe church you believe in that sort of thing, a bit of shopping, perhaps some television....

And the paper said this morning that the Court has put a temporary stay on the temporary stay which put the 114 people out of work, saying that it would cause "unnecessary economic hardship at this time."

I've never figured out "the American Way" and I've been in 47 states during my 64 years. I guess it's whatever you want it to be.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:55 AM

Ebbie should be on the Supreme Court

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:56 AM

Some of Mark Twain's work is an example of satire of "the American Way of life".

There is also a book (2007) called The American Way, A Politically Incorrect Satire.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: heric
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:57 AM

Wow such a diverse array of answers and I agree with every one of them. Richard was perceptive to pick up on muscle cars at the git-go. But on the quesion of why do politicians throw it around so much, I agree with Neil D: It is a meaningless shorthand that politicians use (to stir emotion or jingoism without saying anything, and offending no one.)

If Mom, muscle cars, and apple pie means anything, I think it implies a love for place, detached from the trappings of "sophistication."

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM

Humph. We've heard way too much already about that. What you really need to contemplate to get truly excited is.....The Canadian Way of Life!!!! (grin)

I guess I oughta start another thread, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM

Speaking of 'equality', here is the other side of the Juneau aisle:

At that same house museum I had volunteers from all over the US who signed on to help for a period of time.

A couple of years it was a retired woman from Chicago. After retirement she had taken up photography in a big way. She told me this story:

She had photographed from up the hill and then descended a block or two and set up her tripod again.

S garbage truck squealed to a stop in the intersection and the driver called to her, "If you want a better view, go up the hill."

And, she said, "I stood in the intersection discussing photography with a garbage man. That wouldn't have happened at home."

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:58 PM

"The American Way of Life" is a buzz-phrase used to evoke the several-million definitions in people's heads. Ask Leadfingers-- the country is not geographically amenable to a consensus about the meaning of anything. "What is folk music" would be easier to capture.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM

And I just had a discussion -- quite pleasant, actually -- with a man who is just slightly upset because the Internet filter won't let him go to a site in England run by a Holocaust denier. I told him I couldn't change the filter (which I'm going to do) because of a lack of money to do so and so we talked about the Library's funding for the next Fiscal Year.

As for the Canadian Way of Life -- you might read "Why I Hate Canadians." I got my copy in Edmonton.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 01:22 PM

Beer, beaver, and snow...with the occasional perfervid bout of brilliance thrown in to keep it from getting all too dull.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

So, is the consensus that the American Way of Life is nebulous, changeable according to many factors - which can also be nebulous - indefinable and unrelated to any fixed ideas????

Please, LH, Let's just leave the Canadian Way of Life alone! I love it just the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 01:41 PM

Amos, You hoser, you forgot, great fishin EH!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 01:46 PM

(a good part of the "American way of life" is monitoring and shaking our heads at the attempted stereotypes and labels foisted on us by the rest of the world.) ☺. We haven't even managed to explain yet, that we DO indeed have good beer available in most areas.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: frogprince
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 01:54 PM

A few of the definitions that I've heard implied, if not stated explicitly:

1. The idylic life that we lived during the Eisenhower years.

2. Firmly believing that we have more human rights, and better living conditions, than absolutely anyone else on earth, and looking down on every other country because of it.

3. Appreciating the fact that we live with a credible amount of personal freedom and opportunity, and happy to see that extend to others around us.

All of which may just be rephrasing good observations that have already been made here.
                            Dean

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:07 PM

"kathy, Im lost, I said, though I knew she was sleeping
Im empty and aching and I dont know why
Counting the cars on the new jersey turnpike
Theyve all gone to look for america
All gone to look for america
All gone to look for america"

excerpt from America by Simon and Garfunkle

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:26 PM

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amergin - PM
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:47 AM

cheat lie, steal by force of arms.....

That's only the politicians, big corporations and bankers, much like in the UK.

Stepping outside the philosophical definitions of The American Way.

The reality, day to day living, for me and most I knew/know was to work long hours (often more tha 60 hours a week at more than one job), just to pay premium price for second rate housing, car, food, etc. It was living hand to mouth from month to month, constantly worrying that next car repair or health problem was going to push you over the edge financially.

Personally, though people I knew/know were typically friendly, honest and conducted their lives with integrity in the face of some pretty horrendous events. In short we are human, just like everyone else.

I hate threads like these.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:13 PM

Don't be silly, Rapaire. Nobody hates Canadians. ;-)

The fact is, the USA has already generated so much hatred in the world that there just isn't much left over for foreigners to direct at Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:19 PM

The American Way of Life (in a nutshell):

We all eat apple pie and love our moms. We proudly fly the flag on our front porches behind our white picket fences. We're always saving the world from the bad guys and evildoers, and we are responsible for every important event, discovery and invention in the history of mankind. We never do anything gratuitously, and we never do anything we shouldn't. We're more free than any other people in the world, and poverty and disenfranchisement don't exist in America. Our children are the smartest, most well balanced, best looking, and most accomplished of any children in the world. We never boast or brag about ourselves or our accomplishments.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM

Forgot this one: we are never motivated by self-interest. Everything we do is our of our bottomless sense of do-goodery, and for the benefit of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:12 PM

Well, LH, the author (Will Ferguson) is Canadian....

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:40 PM

We all eat apple pie and love our moms. We proudly fly the flag on our front porches behind our white picket fences. We're always saving the world from the bad guys and evildoers, and we are responsible for every important event, discovery and invention in the history of mankind. We never do anything gratuitously, and we never do anything we shouldn't. We're more free than any other people in the world, and poverty and disenfranchisement don't exist in America. Our children are the smartest, most well balanced, best looking, and most accomplished of any children in the world. We never boast or brag about ourselves or our accomplishments.

Sounds like Lake Woebegone

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:50 PM

It is common here on Whidbey to talk about "going to America" when taking the ferry to the mainland. (also "across the pond" or "creek" ) A friend commented, "If we cannot be in Canada (3 hours north), at least we are on Whidbey. Different attitudes.....

I never saw the same latitude of differences in diverse parts of Canada. When my son did his year abroad, he was quite clear about being Canadian so people would have a good first impression. "The Ugly American" was rampant and detested. (1983)

This thread is amusing in its silliness. Everyone is having so much fun.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:03 PM

Here's a different glimpse of the USA:

Should African Americans Celebrate 4th of July?
Submitted by minpaul on July 1, 2007 - 11:16pm.

Fighting for Your Right "Not" to Party:
Why I'm Not Celebrating July 4th

On July 5th 1852, the great orator and abolitionist, Frederick Douglas delivered an electrifying speech where he posed what was possibly the most significant
question of his time; "What to the slave is the Fourth of July?" He received a thunderous round of applause. A hundred and twenty some odd years later, July 4th 1976, as a nine year old junior militant, I stood defiantly on a picnic table, raised my sand shovel and posed a similar question. Why do black people celebrate Independence Day, anyway?"
The response I received? "Shut up and eat your hot dog!"

The issue of whether African Americans should celebrate the 4th of July is one of those eternal questions that is often asked this time of year but never receives a valid answer. Why do black folks feel obligated to dress up in red white and blue top hats and sing the Star Spangled Banner when our ancestors were in the field picking cotton while the
colonists were getting their party on ? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a day off work and a trip to the beach as much as the next guy but it's time to replace political correctness with historical correctness.

As a matter of full disclosure, I've never prided myself as the all American boy type. I hate baseball and even the thought of apple pie makes me nauseous. So my view of American history may be cynical at best. African Americans were not free in 1776, did not have
full citizenship in 1876, were still fighting for equal rights in 1976 and with people still around like Don Imus and Michael Richards, 2076 ain't looking too promising.
Contrary to popular belief, America's victory in the Revolutionary War did not bring my ancestors one iota closer to Independence than if the Red Coats would have won. Just if the British had won, instead of having a Big Mac and a Pepsi for lunch, I would be
dining on crumpets with a spot of tea. And I would probably be listening to Sir Paul McCartney in my ipod instead of 50 Cent.

Although, many overly patriotic zealots claim to cherish freedom of speech, speaking against this country's day of national pride is considered sacrilegious, worthy of a trip to the woodshed, or worse. Although the constitution grants freedom of expression, in the 21st century, freedom of speech comes with a heavy price. There is always the distinct possibility that you could wake up one morning in a cozy little cell in Guantanamo Bay or at best find yourself sitting across the desk from a stone faced IRS agent trying to explain why your last year's vacation at Disney World was tax deductible. Should I have to live with the fear of "America love it or leave it" being graffitied on my front door just because I will have the only house in the neighborhood not proudly flying Ole Glory ?

As America becomes increasingly more culturally diverse she will have to deal with the blatant contradictions in her history books. While Tony Romano may be throwing a big party for Columbus Day maybe he shouldn't invite his coworker Blue Sky Runningbear to
the shindig. And while John Smith may pay tribute to his WWII veteran grandfather to commemorate every V-J Day, his neighbor, Yoko Tshima, may morn the death of
hers. Americans must begin to respect each others rights to party or not to party on July 4th. While some will dismiss my views as those of some ultra militant, left wing radical who is still miffed that Rev. Jesse Jackson didn't get the Democratic Party nomination back in 1988 , could it be that I represent the views of millions of the silent minority
who are afraid to express themselves for fear of McCarthy-like persecution?
So, don't expect to see me at the annual fireworks show this year with my finger stuck in the potato salad. I'll be home reflecting on the fact that for millions of African Americans, on July 4 2007, the road to Freedom is still under construction".
-Paul Scott
http://share.triangle.com/node/7295

based in Durham NC

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:00 PM

It is great, but of course not perfect. And let she who is without sin cast the first stone.

Anyway, we have amber waves of grain, ice cold beer, stout-hearted men, very soft toilet paper (the best is made from virgin Canadian forests), Smokey THE Bear, windmills sprouting up everywhere, lots of wind to fuel them, polka parties in the Midwest at least, crawfish recipes..oh I could go on. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:03 PM

"let (s)he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Well, that leaves my dachshund out, I'm afraid. Way too many sins to even count.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM

I can think of more. Real maple syrup, a whole city named after and devoted to chocolate, a library in almost every town, occasional great public transportation, (often lousy), visiting nurses (not enough), public drinking fountains almost everywhere with good enough water that you're not scared to drink it, buttons you can push to make the light turn green, 911 that quite often comes before you hang up the phone, a basically generous population, and great community colleges at least in my state. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:11 PM

That sounds just about like Canada, mg.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:25 PM

"let (s)he who is without sin cast the first stone"
-Little Hawk

Little Hawk, it's my position that the only way that the USA will reach its potential as the greatest land on earth is to face up to and work through its problems. Racism has been a problem for the United States of America even before this nation's legal founding. Because I love my country, I dare to speak about these issues even in a feel good thread such as this one.

**

Here's another facet of racism in the USA:      

DAVID CARRADINE'S LEGACY OF SHAME
by Guest Contributor (and regular commenter) Atlasien [a writer who has some Asian ancestry]

http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/05/david-carradines-legacy-of-shame/#more-2498

..."For many Asian-Americans, tributes to Carradine's careeer feel like a cold and bitter insult. Bruce Lee was originally considered for the lead in Kung Fu, but the producers decided America was not ready for an Asian man as a heroic lead. David Carradine was chosen instead. His character, Kwai Chang Caine, was supposed to be half-Chinese and half-white. All the rest of the characters reacted to him as if he were Asian, when he was quite obviously 100% white. This confused the hell out of me when I first saw the show. Once I realized he was supposed to be Asian, it made me angry.

Why did I watch it in the first place? Well, Kung Fu was a pretty good show. It was plotted and shot and edited skillfully. It touched on important philosophical and cultural themes. It was ground-breaking, unique, and had some of the only respectful depictions of Asian culture available on American television in the 1970s. What were the alternatives? The servile, scraping, Hop Sing on Bonanza? Minor characters on M.A.S.H.? A scattered assortment of cackling Fu Manchu-type villains? It would be hard for Asian-Americans not to want to watch Kung Fu. But every time we watched it, we were reminded that it was possible for white people to take the best of what they wanted from Asian culture. Asian culture was mysterious and cool, but real Asian people were unwanted and superfluous. They could easily be replaced by the right kind of white man. And nobody remarked about it, nobody complained… at least it seemed that way.

I was very young when I saw reruns of Kung Fu, but I caught on quickly, and began to dread the sight of David Carradine's face. I still have some fond memories of sequences that didn't involve Carradine, such as the training sequences set in China. Then I stopped watching the reruns because the experience became too painful. Sitting there and watching was like… offering your body up to be erased. It's hard to explain."

-snip-

Here's a comment from a reader of that essay:
"The biggest reason for rejecting Bruce Lee was that ABC didn't want a prime time show with an Asian lead, even though the main character of the show was Asian and Asian cultural themes were being explored. They must have figured that there would have been less racist hate mail if the lead role was played by a white guy pretending to be Chinese. Guess that made it more palatable to people who liked Asian culture but not Asian people.

Kung Fu was similar to the popularization of Rock and Roll in that something that was exotic, underground, and outside the mainstream had to be given a white face. The dynamic in America has always been to separate the culture of non-white people, which white Americans like, from non-white people, who white Americas generally marginalize.

-Miles Ellison; Posted 05 Jun 2009 at 2:48 pm

[my italics for emphasis] ¶

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM

I see that mg was the first person on this thread who wrote that sentence "She who is without sin cast the first stone". Little Hawk was quoting her.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:34 PM

Azizi, I think you are misunderstanding me. I was quoting that "let (s)he who is without sin cast the first stone" because "mg" had posted those very words earlier, and I did it strictly to make a goofy joke back to "mg" about my dachshund (who is steeped in sin, I can assure you).

See "Guest, mg"'s post of 05 Jun 09 - 06:00 PM

I was not in any way commenting on or referring to anything you have posted on this thread.

I agree with you that the USA must face up to and come to terms with its problems, past and present, and racism is one of them, perhaps the biggest one of all. The election of Barack Obama has been very fortuitous in healing at least some of those wounds of the past.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:38 PM

What a lot of people don't realize, and we don't really talk about it, is the various shades of "white." What many people now would call "white", would not really have been considered "white" white.I think that Armenians, Italians, Greeks, Jews, French-Canadians who had intermarried, Turks, Eastern Europeans..Gypsies, Portuguese, would have been not welcomed with open arms, would not have been movie stars for the most part (Danny Thomas..Lebanese, Annette Funacello, Mousekateer Extraordinaire), would have taken the more difficult, dirty jobs, etc. etc. And many of the people who could conclusively be called white..still in my day worked in some of the most hazardous and unappreciated situations -- logging, deep sea fishing etc.

And trust me..this is not primarily a feel-good thread..

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:48 PM

Little Hawk, we obviously cross-posted.

I'm glad that Barack Obama is the President of the United States. However, while that fact may "heal at least some of the wounds of the past", unfortunately institutional racism and personal racism still exists in the United States -in the present.

To paraphrase a rather widely known army advertisement, addressing these issues is one way of helping this nation "be all that it can be."

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM

The American Way of Life is CONSUMING

(more than our share of natural resources; more than we need of consumer goods; more than is good for us of just about anything).

It is driven by advertising which tells us that every American needs a house, two cars and a huge flat screen TV. Throw in the curse of patriotism ("Greatest country in the world!"), and the parallels with the Roman Empire's decline become obvious.

British filmmaker Adam Curtis's 2002 BBC documentary The Century of the Self lays out how it happened. Highly recommended.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:14 PM

There have been a whole lot of people who were grossly discriminated against when they first arrived in the USA. The Irish were a prime example of that...they were often depicted as brutish apelike subhumans in the popular press of the mid-1800's. So too the Italians and many other southern Europeans and Eastern Europeans were looked down on. They were definitely seen as "less white" than the more monied classes of white people in America when they arrived...and the prejudice was based partly on the poverty of the new arrivals, partly on ideas of Anglo-Saxon and northern European racial and cultural supremacy.

Now it is Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims who are often getting treated as second or third class citizens...as well as Native Americans who have been having a rough time of it ever since Columbus arrived in the Caribbean.

****

Michaelr, I think you have it right. The central and most outstanding feature of the American Way is massive consumption, combined with Jingoistic patriotism. The old motto was: "Give me liberty or give me death!" The new motto is: "Give me convenience or give me death."

But that's just looking at the bad side.

On the good side, America is a place of boldness, exuberance, optimism, vitality, and adventurous frontier spirit, and that is its great strength. That exuberance and vitality can easily be seen in the wonderful history of American popular music over the past hundred years, and in the writing of its greatest authors, people like Walt Whitman and Mark Twain to name two of the best.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:27 PM

LIttle Hawk:

While I cannot dispute there are large-scale consumerist trends afoot in this country, I think your demeaning and condescending attitude of applying those traits to the whole nation is unpleasant, and not something you really have a place from which to offer it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:35 PM

But Amos, LH was quoting my post. Why not tell me why you disagree?

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:35 PM

I don't know people who massively consume or have huge houses or even big TVs..that I know of. They might have two cars if two or more people are working and need them (or think they do)to get to work..and it is a big country and often commutes are long and not doable by public transport. I am without a car now and maybe forever and I just can not get places here.

I think America is a country of very poor people, combined with many barely making it combined with a good but worried middle class and some instant millionaires. There are pockets of old money, but it is always being replaced with new.

Condescension towards Americans is nothing new, but it is unbecoming I think...especially if you are one. Look around, there is something to like somewhere. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:03 PM

Well above all else
Americans ... well we have SPAW
and that makes us unique
we only loan him to mudcat !!!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:11 PM

Yeah, Amos, fight it out with Michealr... ;-) But did you not read the good stuff I said about America?

Anyway, Canadians are just as guilty of massive over-consumption as Americans are, so how am I being condescending? It's North Americans who are the world's champion consumers up to the present time...and that includes us Canadians.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:18 PM

Azizi

Well we certainly made progress over the last 55 years I been alive. There is always room for more progress. Great thing about the US is we put our sins in the window for everyone to see and we eventually get it right. It seems sometime it takes a long time for wrongs to become rights but we as a nation do more in moving toward the right direction anyway. Now if we an address the inner city problems and our health care but at least we now have a clear thinker as President. We still have too many forgotten people left by the curb, not just African Americans ... but all types of people.. Always room for more progress. I am amazed when i saw on 20/20 how slavery still exists in many countries. In Africa people forced to work mines. In China forced labor .... many places where the horror exists and needs to be stopped even today sadly

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:25 PM

olddude - "Great thing about the US is we put our sins in the window for everyone to see and we eventually get it right."

Whereas we Canadians have been quietly watering down our export stocks of Maple Syrup with reconstituted moose urine for decades and have NEVER ONCE admitted to it through offical channels!

Oh, the shame! I can hardly hold my head up when I think of it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:29 PM

"It's North Americans who are the world's champion consumers up to the present time."

.... along with China, Britain, Portugal, Brazil and any other country that has a large population population that has xtra money left from their paycheck after paying rent and food.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:30 PM

"The American Way of Life" is a nebulous myth created by people with something to sell. They may want to sell a political philosophy (Americans are proud of their country!), a new car (Americans are independent and can go wherever they want whenever they please!), or underarm deodorant (Americans who smell nice are more American than Americans who stink!). It's a myth aimed at those who either have money or can be convinced that behaving as if they have money is just as good. It permeates our psyches to the point where many of us believe it is our birthright when, in fact, it's a manufactured vision.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:31 PM

Little Hawk
dang I thought it was tasting different LOL

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:39 PM

Had the Redcoats won, slavery would have ended a hell of a lot sooner in what is now the United States than it did.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:44 PM

Perhaps...

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:50 PM

LH, that is why I always buy Pennsylvania or Vermont maple syrup.

I think it's interesting that the citizens/residents of the US (aka Americans) responding to this are almost all saying that the American Way of Life is many different things or is different in different places, while those who don't live here, and presumably get their information and impressions second hand at best, are uniformly saying it is one or two specific (and mostly negative) things.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:56 PM

It would definitely have ended long before it did in the US...

"(In) 1834...the British Parliament's Slavery Abolition Act finally abolished slavery in all parts of the British Empire."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Canada

And they didn't have to fight a war to make it happen, either.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:28 PM

Little Hawk
do Canadian wiener dogs say EH when they bark LOL
my Pennsylvania wiener dogs all do a youse guys when they bark

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:37 PM

"Most of the emancipated slaves of African descent in Canada were in the 1830s sent to settle Freetown in Sierra Leone and those that remained primarily ended up in segregated communities such as Africville outside Halifax, Nova Scotia."

From the link. Oh, yeah. They done good.


We might remember: It was Britons, by and large, who brought the institution of slavery to the new land.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: mg
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:46 PM

Well, wasn't it being practiced here and there in the new land already? mg

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:33 PM

MichaelR:

My profuse apologies for aiming my sarcasm at the wrong person. You may ignore my remark about "not having a place from which to offer it", too.

Funny, how that works.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:55 PM

"What is The American Way of Life?"

I think it was probably something that was dreamt up by Madison Avenue sometime around the later part of the 1950's ... some people try buying into whatever it is, not only in the U.S but the world over ... but when you look at every day life people just live their lives and thier dreams day by day from Toledo, Ohio .. Montevideo .... Berlin ... Nagasaki ..... and on and on.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:12 PM

When I said what I did about slavery being ended earlier had the Redcoats won, I was just correcting a supposition from a commentary that was posted earlier in the thread. The person who wrote the commentary was supposing that the only difference for people of African descent in this part of the world had the Redcoats won would have been tea and crumpets. I was disagreeing with that supposition. And I was entirely correct in my disagreement.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:25 PM

mg - You're quite right. Slavery was practiced by a good many North and South American Indian nations. It reached a very well organized level in the big city-building states of Central and South America and was practiced on a much smaller and more informal scale amongst various tribes in what is now the USA or Canada. Slaves were generally people from other tribes who had been taken prisoner in raids. They were made to do a lot of hard work for the tribe that had captured them for the remainder of their lives, and had a considerably lower status in the community...although, a slave that was clever and gifted enough could sometimes work his way up the status chain a fair bit.

Slavery was also very common all over the world long before the British Empire engaged in it. ;-) In fact, the Roman and Greek societies and many others could not have maintained their economic systems without vast numbers of slaves. Again, slaves who were clever and gifted enough could sometimes rise quite high...but they were still slaves unless their master decided to free them. (and that could happen)

It's silly to blame slavery all on the British...but they should indeed be credited for abolishing it throughout their empire in 1834. In that respect, they showed considerably higher social ideals and more progressive thought than many other nations of the time, the USA included. It was seen as a moral issue in Great Britain, and the progressives won out...by peaceful persuasion.

*****

Olddude - Yes! Canadian dachshunds do often add a small interrogative note to the end of a bark, and it can be compared to "...,eh?" They do this when they are not quite sure who or what they are barking at...or they're not quite sure what might happen next. A dachshund always has in mind that a quick strategic withdrawal might be necessary, even when he's hurling dire threats or challenges with what appears to be great confidence. He may be arrogant, but he ain't stupid! ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:57 AM

Slavery is totally evil, but it should also be noted that it was relatively easy for Britain to have supported abolition of the slave trade and (later) slavery itself because it had no real need for slaves. Whether or not the British would have supported emancipation as early as they did if they had needed slave labor is an unanswerable question.

The industrial revolution and the enclosure process resulted in an excess of labor in the English south. There was no need to import workers, enslaved or otherwise. The opposite was true in the Sugar Islands (West Indies) where the local (Indian) population had long-since died off because of imported disease and transported English convicts and prisoners of war either died rapidly or escaped and melted into the "free" population, and in the Southeastern US. Agricultural products (rice, sugar and cotton) in these areas required a large and basically unskilled labor force, and laborers who were free to move on did so.

That is the basic reason for the use of slaves - there simply were no other workers available. The economy of the West Indies basically died in 1838 with the enactment of the British Abolition of Slavery Act, not to be revived until the tourist trade arrived over a hundred years later.

Whether slavery really ended in the American Southeast after the Civil War is very questionable. Former slaves were free to leave, but they had no real place to go and, if they stayed, their living and working conditions wouldn't change much for at least a generation.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:20 AM

Actually, slavery did not end in the US after the Civil War. Many locations in the US south had a system of arresting and imprisoning innocent African Americans specifically for the purpose of using them as slave labor. This continued well into the 1900s. Some might argue that the way our drug laws are set up is a continuation of this practice even today.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:58 AM

"Slavery is totally evil, but it should also be noted that it was relatively easy for Britain to have supported abolition of the slave trade and (later) slavery itself because it had no real need for slaves. Whether or not the British would have supported emancipation as early as they did if they had needed slave labor is an unanswerable question."

Art, the British had never used slaves in Britain except on a small scale. The slave trade was the means by which a group or class of people, ship-owners, merchants and financiers, became very rich and powerful, indeed they controlled government (or at least had a very powerful influence on government) and it was the influence of this group that had to be broken - which is what Wilberforce and his followers achieved. It should be understood what an incredible achievment this amounted to, given the huge political power of the slavers themselves.

The slave trade, for the British, was never about taking slaves to use here, it was about the things we were very good at - buying (or stealing) and selling, and making a lot of money for a few people.

The British were no doubt prime movers and shakers in the slave trade, but let's not forget, too, that people of many nations worked and made money in the trade - including Africans themselves.

Wilberforce and his followers were driven, not by a lack of need for slaves, but by their humanity, their religious beliefs, and their enlightened conviction that slavery was inhumane and unacceptable in a civilised society.

Surely what's important isn't whether it was easier for the British to abolish the trade, which led to the abolition of slavery itself (and given the power of the rich ruling class at that time that's open to debate - money talks, and very loudly indeed) - it's that they did it and led the way for the rest of the world? Let's not belittle that achievment - had Wilberforce not prevailed, there might still be slavery in the USA, who knows? Perish the thought.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:59 AM

IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:03 AM

One of my favorite sayings is: "Brevity is the soul of wit."

If I were to describe the American way, I would say simply, THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE."

To gump it out a bit, during the McCarthy witch hunt, Granpa Jones sang a song called I'm No Communist, and one line went,...I believe a man should own his own house, a car and cow. I like this private ownership and want to be left alone; let the government run its business and let me run my own.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:41 AM

LYRICS/TRANSCRIPTION:
I'm No Communist: Carson Robison [1952]

We're living in a country that's the finest place of earth
But some folks don't appreciate this land that gave them birth
I hear that up in Washington they're having an awful fuss
'Cause Communists and spies are making monkeys out of us

The bureaus and departments have been busy night and day
They're figuring out just how we gave our secrets all away
And Congress has appointed a committee so they said
To find out who's American and who's a low-down Red.

They call them up to Washington to speak for Uncle Sam
But when they ask them what they are, they shut up like a clam
I wish they'd take and put me on the witness stand today
I'd yell so loud old Stalin could hear me all the way

Refrain: I'm no Communist, and I'll you that right now
I believe a man should own his own house and car and cow
I like this private ownership, and I want to be left alone
Let the government run its business and let me run my own

Our government is bigger than it ever was today
The more they hire to work for it, the more they have to pay
Our public servants should be proud and honest you would think
Instead of taking bribes and dressing up their wives in mink

The taxes keep on going up of that there is no doubt
But still they just can't take it in as fast as they dish it out
Our national debt is monster size and growin' every day
Our children's children, still unborn are gonna have to pay

Our dollar used be the soundest money on this earth
But now two bucks won't even buy a good old dollar's worth
Unless we stop inflation and take care of what we've got
The Communists may win the fight and never fire a shot

Refrain



Carson Robison [1952]
I'm No Communist
(Scotty Wiseman

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:42 AM

This is not in the DT. It should be.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM

IMO, McCarthyism is one of the times when Americans did not live up to our stated ideals of freedom.

Here are some excerpts from The Age of McCarthyism (Schrecker, Ellen. Boston: Bedford Books of St. Marvin's Press, 1994. (pp. 92-94)

The Legacy of McCarthyism

"In the late 1950s a group of graduate students at the University of Chicago wanted to have a coffee vending machine installed outside the Physics Department for the convenience of people who worked there late at night. They started to circulate a petition to the Buildings and Grounds Department, but their colleagues refused to sign. They did not want to be associated with the allegedly radical students whose names were already on the document.

This incident and it is not unique exemplifies the kind of timidity that came to be seen, even at the time, as the most damaging consequence of the anti-Communist furor. Since political activities could get you in trouble, prudent folk avoided them. Instead, to the despair of intellectuals, middle- class Americans became social conformists. A silent generation of students populated the nation's campuses, while their professors shrank from teaching anything that might be construed as controversial...

Was McCarthyism to blame? Obviously the congressional hearings, loyalty programs, and blacklists affected the lives of the men and women caught up in them. But beyond that, it is hard to tell. The statistics are imprecise. Ten thousand people may have lost their jobs. Is that few or many? ...

Quantification aside, it may be helpful to look at the specific sectors of American society that McCarthyism touched. Such an appraisal, tentative though it must be, may offer some insight into the extent of the damage and into the ways in which the anti-Communist crusade influenced American society, politics, and culture. We should keep in mind, however, that McCarthyism's main impact may well have been in what did not happen rather than in what didthe social reforms that were never adopted, the diplomatic initiatives that were not pursued, the workers who were not organized into unions, the books that were not written, and the movies that were never filmed.

The most obvious casualty was the American left. The institutional toll is clear. The Communist party, already damaged by internal problems, dwindled into insignificance and all the organizations associated with it disappeared. The destruction of the front groups and the left-led unions may well have had a more deleterious impact on American politics than the decline of the party itself. With their demise, the nation lost the institutional network that had created a public space where serious alternatives to the status quo could be presented. Moreover, with the disappearance of a vigorous movement on their left, moderate reform groups were more exposed to right-wing attacks and thus rendered less effective...

In the realm of social policy, for example, McCarthyism may have aborted much-needed reforms. As the nation's politics swung to the right after World War II, the federal government abandoned the unfinished agenda of the New Deal. Measures like national health insurance, a social reform embraced by the rest of the industrialized world, simply fell by the wayside. The left liberal political coalition that might have supported health reforms and similar projects was torn apart by the anti-Communist crusade. Moderates feared being identified with anything that seemed too radical, and people to the left of them were either unheard or under attack. McCarthyism further contributed to the attenuation of the reform impulse by helping to divert the attention of the labor movement, the strongest institution within the old New Deal coalition, from external organizing to internal politicking...

The impact of the McCarthy era was equally apparent in international affairs. Opposition to the cold war had been so thoroughly identified with communism that it was no longer possible to challenge the basic assumptions of American foreign policy without incurring suspicions of disloyalty...

The nation's cultural and intellectual life suffered as well. While there were other reasons that TV offered a bland menu of quiz shows and westerns during the late 1950s, McCarthy-era anxieties clearly played a role. Similarly, the blacklist contributed to the reluctance of the film industry to grapple with controversial social or political issues. In the intellectual world, cold war liberals also avoided controversy"...

-snip-

Click http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/schrecker-legacy.html
for more of this bool excerpt.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

Thanks everyone. I've found all this really interesting and I've learned a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:26 AM

I'm sharing this excerpt of a review of a book about the USA astrological chart with the Rising sign (Ascendant) in Sagittarius for the purpose of this discussion, and not for the purpose of proselytizing.

Soul-Sick Nation: An Astrologer's View of America, by Jessica Murray.

"Jessica Murray has written an astounding work that looks at the entity we know as the USA from the viewpoint of a master astrologer interpreting the birth chart of an individual. She writes with depth and clarity from the viewpoint of politics, history, and astrology. Her knowledge of each is extensive and pervasive.

Starting with the premise that our world as a whole is in crisis, which I believe would be hard for anyone to refute, she posits that the USA, which leads the pack and is the primary world superpower, is hopelessly inadequate to live up to the role it is cast in. America, as a country, is hardly out of diapers, historically speaking. Unfortunately, she says, this immature entity " has ended up being more or less in charge of the fate of the Earth."

Murray suggests that in order to correct this situation and get our country back on track, we should start with understanding before we commit ourselves to any action. One way to this understanding is through an analysis of the birth chart of the nation.

Murray begins with the rudiments of the sun, moon, and rising sign. Starting with the sun in Cancer, the sign of the mother and ruled by the emotional, ever-changing moon, she writes that the USA invokes the image of Mom, apple pie, family picnics, hearth and home. We have, also, used the image of being protective of the family and even exported this image of "taking care of" the rest of the world as a kind of Supermom.

The USA moon, on the other hand, is in the sign of Aquarius, which is ruled by the planet Uranus, god of chaos, innovation, insurrection, and futuristic ideas. Murray points out the difficulty of having the moon, a very emotional planet, in such a mental sign—also the sign of science and technology. This inherent conflict, she suggests, is responsible for the disconnect between intellect and emotion that is prevalent in this country.

Sagittarius is the US rising sign, ruled by the planet Jupiter, the King of the Gods. This is the persona we Americans tend to project to the rest of the world. We are noted for our enthusiasm, optimism and excesses. Jupiter is known as the Greater Benefic in astrology, and we love to see ourselves as benefactors to the rest of the world. We have a "can do" attitude.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world doesn't always agree with our self image. With this outline to start, Murray sets the stage for the personality dissection of this entity known as the USA. "

http://www.daykeeperjournal.com/aarch07/0701jan/bkrev.shtml


-snip-

For those interested in reading more about Murray's book which uses the Sibly chart that gives Sagittarius 12 as the USA Rising sign, click on this link:

http://www.astrologysoftware.com/community/sessions/show_review.asp?ID=28&orig=

For those interested in viewing an astrological chart which uses Sagittarius as the USA Rising sign and one which uses Gemini as the USA Rising sign, click on this link:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/countries/usa.php

**

Astrology appears to be one of those subjects on Mudcat that people can not seriously discuss without those who don't accept it (and who may know little about it) declaring their opinions about the subject in comments that can mostly be described as "put downs". Be that as it may, as I mentioned in the beginning of this post, I'm sharing these links to provide more insights about the character of the USA, and not to debate the efficacy of astrology.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:19 AM

I'd like to make one more comment on this subject, I agree with Ebbie's 05 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM comment about Americans being equalitarian. I don't think that equalitarianism extends to all circumstances, but those circumstances where Americans are equalitariam may involve persons of the same race or ethnicity and economic class or persons of different races or ethnicities* and economic classes.

* By "ethnicity", I mean the USA Census definition of that term as a referent for "Hispanics"/"Latinos" who can be of any race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group defines "ethnic group as "a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or presumed.

Ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness and the recognition of common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioral or biological traits,[real or presumed, as indicators of contrast to other groups."

-snip-

I think that most Americans are aware of a number of European ethnic groups (which used to be called separate races) such as Italian, Irish, French, and German. And I think that most Americans are aware of different Asian ethnic groups-though on second thought, we probably mistake nationalities such as Chinese, Japanese, and Vietnamese as ethnic groups. But I think that far fewer Americans are aware that there are distinct ethnic groups-or at least different cultural groups-among African Americans. For instance there are Gullahs, Louisiana Creoles, African Americans with Caribbean ancestry, and African Americans who have at least one birth parent or birth grandparent who was born in an African nation.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM

Sorry. I hit submit too soon.

I meant to end with the statement that members of different ethnic groups often have different experiences and perhaps also different expectations that will factor into how they view the nation in which they live and also may influence how that nation experiences and set expectations for them.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:08 AM

Backwoodsman, the point I was attempting to make was that the British had no economic need to have an imported source of cheap labor, so the opposition to the Wilberforce campaign and the later one to abolish slavery itself was much less than it could have been. (It is interesting that the Act of 1833 did not abolish slavery in India where, arguably, there was a need for a cheap non-mobile labor force.) This is the same reason that the Abolitionist process was much easier in the American Northeast than the Southeast. Perhaps if there had not been a surplus of labor in both places, and if their respective economies had not been amenable to industrialization, the course of history would had been different.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:40 AM

The freedom to choose is not something unique to the USA. People in Canada, France, England, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Australia, Sweden, Iceland, Spain, Japan, and I should think a great many other places also have the freedom to choose, and they excercise that freedom every day of their lives. It would be good if American school children were made aware of that, I think, rather than growing up thinking that they are the only people on Earth who live in "freedom".

True freedom is the ability to think independently for oneself regardless of the continual pressures of social conformity, customs, traditions; and government, school, and media propaganda. How many Americans are truly free? How many people in the world are truly free? I think you would find that the truly free are in a rather small minority almost everywhere.

Most people don't think independently for themselves. They think as they have been told to think by the authority figures around them.

America may well be one of the least free developed countries in the sense that I am alluding to in those last 2 paragraphs, and therein lies the problem. I've lived in Canada and I've lived in the USA. I've seen the difference. Canada is a freer country when it comes to people's mental flexibility and their independence of thought...regardless of the hierarchical influences around them. Still, there's a lot of room for improvement in both Canada and the USA when it comes to that. Canadians also tend to conform and tend to think as they are told to think by the authority figures around them.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:05 PM

"the British had no economic need to have an imported source of cheap labor"

No, we largely relied on the Irish and our own abused labouring class.

The major seaports on the west coast of England, in particular Bristol and Liverpool, owed their properity to a large extent on the slave trade. Slaves were simply a commodity to be bought and sold - listen to Show of Hands 'Bristol Slaver'. Wilberforce came from Hull, a port on the east coast that had as its backbone the whaling and fishing industries and was not a 'slaving' port. I wonder if Wilberforce had come from Bristol or LIverpool whether he would have had the success he did.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: heric
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:40 PM

>America may well be one of the least free developed countries in the sense that I am alluding to in those last 2 paragraphs, and therein lies the problem.<

That is where, IMHO, you are wrong, and where Art and Amos are right that you have been misled by the media and mutltiple hearsay. I think your few childhood years in Buffalo were insufficient. I have spent my life about equally divided between the two countries. The great cacophony of noise that is American democracy looks bizarre, overly excited and even ignorant when viewed from a distance and through American magazines or television. Immersed in it, you see something quite beautiful instead.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:48 PM

How many of those other countries have a bill of rights?

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: heric
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

Well the Canadians now do, but they're a little slow in warming up to it. The British invented it. It's been my general impression, from the way the Brits brutalize their politicans, that the habit of loud, noisy messy democracy thrives there on a parallel course.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM

Well, heric, I understand what you're saying in the sense of American diversity. Yes, there is great diversity in the USA.

What I was thinking was more along the lines of the American tendency toward extremes in authoritarianism and severity of various social rules...and how much that is supported by an emotionally reactive population.

For instance, capital punishment is still practiced widely in the USA. It is not practiced in most other western democracies any longer. The reason it's practiced widely in the USA is not because it reduces crime. It doesn't reduce crime. It's because Americans tend to let violent emotions think for them...and violent emotions do not lead to good decision-making. Capital punishment is NOT something that improves law enforcement, it's something that satisfies people's lust for vengeance.

You can see this kind of tendency throughout American history. The 13 states opted to secure various rights and representation through a violent revolution against the English crown. The population in Canada and/or Australia secured those very same rights through peaceful negotiation with the crown. The USA fought over 500 Indian wars. Canada, in the same historical period, had one Indian war (the Riel Rebellion). The USA has a far higher per capita incidence of violent crime than is found in Canada or western Europe....and far more of its own people in prison per capita than Canada or western Europe.

Do you follow my line of reasoning on this? There has, historically speaking, been a strong tendency in the USA to sanction the uses and glorification of violence and extreme punishment to solve problems, and it has been passed on in a subliminal fashion to the whole population through the dramatic tales of violence and frontier lawlessness found in American history, movies, books, comics, etc. That's the problem. It's an attitude problem. Punitive attitudes lead to a punitive and authoritarian system.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: heric
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:39 PM

Yes I follow inasmuch as the "USA has a far higher per capita incidence of violent crime than is found in Canada or western Europe....and far more of its own people in prison per capita than Canada or western Europe" and that would certainly be a valid component in decscribing "The American Way of Life."

Your big picture generalizations though, causing objection by various American mudcatters, are often overbroad and describe unfair stereopypes. That crime and punishment principle is probably related to pervasive economic angst, not ingnorance (I would guess).

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:55 PM

Well, there is a difference in attitude, and it's very perceptible to western Europeans or Canadians who visit the USA. On the one hand, Americans tend to be warm, hospitable, and generous people...and those qualities are delightful. No doubt about it. I remember visiting Atlanta awhile back, and I found the southern hospitality of the people there just wonderful.

On the other hand, I find these very punitive attitudes in many Americans toward anyone who is perceived as a threat. Those people might be criminals, they might be foreigners, "liberals", "communists", "socialists", "Muslim terrorist", "right-wing nutjobs", "limp-wristed tree huggers", "faggots", Democrats, Republicans, Blacks, Whites...whatever... ;-) That's when the nasty side comes out of the emotionally reactive individuals in America who have an ax to grind. Are they ignorant? Well, sometimes they are and sometimes they are not. Sometimes they're quite well-informed and STILL just that nasty.

It may, as you say, be driven partly by economic insecurity. In fact, I'm sure that's a big part of it. It is also, however, driven by a very long tradition of solving problems through violence rather than through law and non-violent negotiation.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 05:24 PM

Is making sweeping, inaccurate generalizations something all you Canucks do???

Seriously, LH, you really need to get over these categorical imperatives. The tendency to make "them" categories and assign costumes thereto is, I assure you, not a national one, but a human one, and I have seen it in a far more severe form in Canadian friends of mine than I have in American friends. You are obviously part of the Great Satan Conspiracy, not to mention the :eft-Wing Dupe Club and the Folkie Fogminded Society, and probably a faggot hippie commie yourself, to blame this generic human fallibility on us Amurkins.

;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: heric
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 05:44 PM

We should take a summer road trip to go up there and kick his ass and see the Apple Hollow Festival.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:09 PM

I think the point is a good one, though, if possibly somewhat overgeneralized. We do tend to have a culture of retribution in the US. A lot of people don't subscribe to it, but I think more do than don't, and I would say it's definitely a very visible aspect of our culture here.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:14 PM

CarolC is, as always, entitled to her opinion of Americans, although very few Americans share it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:25 PM

LOL!!! Well, yeah, I expected to stir up some reactions...though I was careful to qualify my statements with words like "many" and "tend to"...so as to make it quite clear that I didn't mean ALL americans are thus and so.

But to answer some specifics, Amos...

"Is making sweeping, inaccurate generalizations something all you Canucks do???"

No. I had an uncle once who didn't do that...and...um...oh, yeah, there was this girl I met in Sudbury who didn't. Other that that....um.....well, gee... Lemme think.

"You are obviously part of the Great Satan Conspiracy, not to mention the :eft-Wing Dupe Club and the Folkie Fogminded Society, and probably a faggot hippie commie yourself, to blame this generic human fallibility on us Amurkins."

Damn! You've found me out. My cover is blown. ;-D

I promise to do nothing but praise America for the next 36 hours until I am fully absolved...or until pigs fly...whichever comes first.

Heh!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:16 PM

If they fly, I am confident I can predict where they will be flying out of, buddy...


A

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:55 PM

theleveller,

As a right-wing, libertarian-leaning, Christian, gun-rights-supporting, peace-loving environmentalist, fundamentally supporting the death penalty, and as an American, I'm sure you would find plenty in The American Way of Life with which you could identify.

We have a lively left-wing flapping about the body politic, including quite a few Mudcat members. They speak with perfect freedom here, just as they do in the U.K.

We have plenty of radicals of all stripes, rightist, leftist, libertarian, environmentalist, you name it. You would fit right in and be, I suppose, at least as welcome to your views here as you are welcome to them at home.

You could certainly identify with our home-grown atheists. We probably have as many here as you do there though, of course, they are a smaller proportion of our population.

As a gun-hater, you'll have millions of allies here too though, again, they are a smaller proportion of our population.

As for peace-loving, well, I'm 48, have lived here all my life, and have never yet met an American who wasn't peace-loving. (The sound you hear across the Atlantic is the heads of leftist Americans exploding with rage at this statement, but please read on.) Americans disagree among ourselves about how best to achieve peace in the long run, and about what price we are willing to pay to achieve it. Obviously, since we disagree among ourselves about the means to peace, some of us, maybe most of us, are wrong about the best means. But 99.999999% of us agree on the goal: long-term peace, with liberty. Some, like our thriving Amish and Mennonite communities, are completely pacifist. Most of use probably agree with our late President Franklin Roosevelt (and your current Prime Minister and our current President) that defending, and even imposing, democracy is a worthwhile goal, even though it costs American (and British) lives. Our left-wing sometimes speaks as though our right-wing, like the Spartans of old, actually liked war. That's just rhetoric, not reality. There was a time when my countrymen supported war to seize land from others, but no living American can remember those days. Our last acquisitions, the Northern Mariana Islands, are free to go their own way if they choose, as did Palau, the Marshall Islands, and Micronesia. We did not try to hold Japan or South Korea or Kuwait, and are not trying to hold Iraq or Afghanistan. If you love peace, you'll love it here, just as you love your own country.

As a fellow environmentalist, I know you would love it here. I've never made it up to Wrangell-St. Elias National Park, our largest, but I'm sure we would both love it. At over 53,000 square kilometers, it's about the size of the Irish Republic, Northern Ireland, and Wales combined and is almost entirely wilderness. I don't have to travel far, though, to enjoy nature. On my way to work last week, I saw cottontail rabbits, ground squirrels, groundhogs, deer, gray squirrels, fox squirrels, red-tailed hawks, turkey buzzards, a wild turkey, and a barred owl. Lake Eire, which we share with Canada, is no longer dead and our Cuyahoga River, which flows into it, hasn't caught fire in decades. Last year, I saw a beaver swimming there. As an environmentalist, you would not find it perfect here, but you would find a lot to love.

As for opposing the death penalty, you would also find plenty of support. My gun-loving home state of West Virginia, in spite of the redneck fundamentalist stereotypes, does not have the death penalty. If I am not mistaken, Michigan was one of the first jurisdictions in the world to abolish the death penalty (1846). You might also like Alaska, Hawaii, Maine, New Mexico, North Dakota, or another of the 14 states without the death penalty.

From what I've read, I would probably love the English way of life almost as much as I love the American way of life. We are both very blessed by our respective countries.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:12 PM

If very few Americans share it (and I don't know if I agree with that assertion) it's because most Americans aren't very introspective. If we didn't have a culture of retribution in this country, there would be no death penalty, and people couldn't get elected using Willie Horton type tactics. And we wouldn't have seen the majority of people in this country wanting to take revenge on Saddam Hussein for shit he didn't even do.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:13 PM

Another thing we wouldn't have if there wasn't a culture of retribution in this country is kids getting tried as adults.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:29 PM

"... the majority of people in this country wanting to take revenge on Saddam Hussein for shit he didn't even do."

Huh?

Amnesty International listed Saddam Hussein's "lifetime body count" at 1.4 million. That is the same as Pol Pot.

Seems he must have done something wrong, don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:35 PM

As it is with the venerable old process known as the ORAL TRADTION, the American way of life is based on borowing or just taking outright from others, making it your own, and not getting blamed or caught or killed.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:53 PM

Yes, but the majority of people in the US wanted to take Saddam out because they believed he was responsible for 9/11. If I had a nickel for every time I heard or saw someone saying we should turn Iraq into a parking lot for committing the acts of 9/11, I would have a lot of nickels.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:08 PM

I just wonder how they could possibly have gotten such an incorrect idea!!!




A

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:30 PM

Yeah, it's pretty mysterious, ain't it, Amos... ;-) Gosh! I wonder if the Bush administration and the right wing talk show people had anything to do with creating that impression? Ya think?

pdq - The average American voter didn't give two hoots about the 1.4 million Middle Easterners (mostly Iraqis and Iranians and Kurds) who died because of Saddam Hussein. Not even one hoot. They couldn't care less about those people. But they did give a hoot about the 3,000 people who died in New York on 911, and that's why they foolishly backed the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: mg
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:02 PM

How dare you say that? That is going too far. Of course many people cared about them. You are caught up in your own pretensions and dare to speak for the average American voter? You don't know shit from shinola. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:42 PM

I'm not saying you don't give a damn about the Middle-Easterners, mg. Just the average American voter doesn't, that's all. As for shit and shinola...I don't even know what "shinola" is. I've lived long enough, though, to know how much attention the average North American gives to the lives of a lot of unnamed Middle Easterners, and it ain't too much.

If an airplane crashes somewhere, you know what I will hear on the news in Canada? I will hear how many Canadians were on it. If I was in the USA, I'd hear about how many Americans were on it. A good while after that I might hear about the other people who died...maybe a sentence or two about them.

That's the way it is out there. I'm not saying that only Americans are guilty of that kind of national self-absorption. It's very common.

What I am saying is that the main reason Bush got support in the USA for his invasion of Iraq was lingering anger over 911, and Saddam did not cause 911.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: mg
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:52 PM

You pompous creep. Sorry. Kick me off the board if you have to. They are dying over there for unnamed Middle Easterners. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 12:08 AM

I don't know how the people who were saying we should turn Iraq into a parking lot could possibly have given a shit about the people of Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 01:05 AM

I have no intention of kicking you or anyone else off the board, mg. I don't mind in the least that you and I disagree now and then about some political issue. That's life.

I have often defended various of the few conservatives (such as DougR or Bearded Bruce) on this forum against really outrageous bullying by big gangs of my fellow (so-called) "liberals". Keep that in mind. I am no conservative, but I don't like to see people engaging in self-righteous bullying of someone who doesn't parrot their chosen party line.

I have also agreed with many things you have posted here. So what if we disagree on some of them? I don't feel that gives me any reason to insult you...or any reason for you to insult me. We disagree, that's all. That happens in a democracy. It's part of the democratic process that occurs in a free society.

I know that American soldiers are dying over there. I bet some of them fully believe they're dying for unnamed Middle Easterners, and if they do believe that...fine. I salute them and their courage and idealism in that case. But I do not think they are truly dying for those Middle Easterners. I think they are dying for the ambitions of corporate oil magnates and other very rich people who sent them there.

I'm not against the individual soldiers themselves. Soldiers mostly try to do the best they can in a very tough situation and they face what most people would never want to face. I appreciate that. Every honest soldier who serves has my full respect.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:42 AM

Hi, Kent. Thanks for that excellent post. That's the most balanced view I've heard to date. Sounds good to me!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:24 AM

Stereotypes afford us the luxury of not thinking. But, in time they will extract the PRICE of our not thinking." (Stranger in two worlds)

When you say Americans, that is such a broad sweep. In my state we have guns in almost every home; we have over 10,000 concealed carry permits, and we do not have the death penalty. Yet, we have one of the lowest murder rates in the country.

It is my opinion that too many people crammed together is the main cause of killings. We have just over one million people in an area covering over 30,000 square miles.Even rats will kill each other if confined in too small a place.

I am a Liberal. I do not support the death penalty. Too many cases of innocent people in prison have been discovered by DNA and the victims had to be released.There is no return from extinction.
My dear wife on the other hand, does believe in the death penalty for the most awful crimes, and she is more conservative than I. Go figure.

I also believe that our leaders are more responsive to our demands than they are in, say, England.If I'm wrong there, tell me.

Can someone list the bill of rights for Canada? I didn't know you had that.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:03 AM

Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:47 AM

Very interesting. Thanks Bobad.
I find the "Not withstanding clause" very interesting. Our bill of rights is carved in stone.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM

Yup. A whole lot of lawyers and judges busted their brains over that one, and they're still doing so. ;-) It's the old thing about federal powers versus provincial powers, isn't it? Same as the state's rights arguments in the USA.

Kendall, what use is a bill of rights that guarantees habeus corpus when your government simply moves prisoners offshore to illegal facilites in foreign lands and then denies them habeus corpus?

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:45 AM

Frankly I'm rather tired of all this stereotyping ... it's been going on too long through time .... one of these days (maybe/hopefully)we will evolve beyond it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:45 AM

Kendall: Clearly, the US Bill of Rights is NOT carved in stone. The previous regime did everything possible to take away as many of those rights as possible. You might try reading the short but horrifying book, You Have no Rights. It is factual, including people being arrested for wearing t-shirts with unacceptable - to the police - mottos on their T-shirts. As a "liberal" you need to take a closer look at the reality. Any "bill of rights" is only as good as those in power allow it to be. Thousands of people in the US have to struggle daily to retain those rights. We can hope for improvement under the current govt. but the struggle will continue from the local level on up.
"Life" - ask the families of those who died to protect big business
"liberty" - ask the thousands in prison for the crime of being poor, willing to stand up for those alleged rights, and other inappropriate reasons
"the pursuit of happiness" -   the hungry children, the parents who cannot afford to feed them, and on and on... and those murdered by the state (us?) for crimes they did not commit.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 11:20 AM

Most of the discussion about habeas corpus as it applies to Gitmo concerns this case:



Algerian Six

"The Algerian Six are six Muslim men who had been imprisoned without charges at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba since January 2002; five of them were ordered released after a long disputed habeas hearing before Judge Leon in the Federal District Court in Washington, D.C.; three were then flown to Bosnia to reunite in 'protective custody' with their families while three remained at Guantanamo, one, Belkacem, as a suspected terrorist and the other two, including Lakhmar Boumediene, as effectively stateless because Bosnia did not want them. The men were all born in Algeria, but five of the six were naturalized Bosnian citizens and the sixth had been a permanent resident of Bosnia prior to his detention. Five of the men worked for humanitarian organizations in Bosnia before they were sent to Guantanamo. After falling under U.S. suspicion of planning an attack on the U.S. embassy in Bosnia, the six men were turned over to the U.S. in January 2002 in Sarajevo by the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina at the express demand of the U.S. Though they have remained imprisoned at Guantanamo since that date, the U.S. has yet to charge any of the men with any crimes.

The six men were formally arrested by Bosnian authorities in October 2001. They were held in Bosnian custody during a three-month investigation into U.S. claims that the men had plotted an attack on the U.S. and British Embassies..."

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:59 PM

theleveller,

You are welcome. Incidentally, I was just reading about the group which is, I believe, the source of your name. According to this source, the "Leveller program included religious toleration, reform of the law, free trade, an extended franchise, rights guaranteed under a written constitution and a government answerable to the People rather than to King or Parliament". That sounds a lot like the program of Ben Frankin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Thomas Paine, etc. in this country, a century after the English Levellers: http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/glossary/levellers.htm

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:21 PM

A great many countries have a Bill of Rights, but there is usually a wide gulf between what is officially supposed to be done by police and courts and government, and what is actually done behind closed doors but isn't spoken of or reported on in the mainstream media.

You could call it the "hypocrisy gap". This is so not only in the USA, but in virtually every other country on Earth, including my own.

A Bill of Rights in itself is not enough (although it's a good start). You must also have a government, police, and judiciary who are honest enough to obey it to the letter and in every case, no matter whose interests are involved.

That, in practice, has turned out to be virtually impossible.

What's a lot worse, though, is a place that HAS no Bill of Rights. So we can count our blessings, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:38 PM

The American Way of Life? Isn't it

• baseball
• hot dogs
• apple pie
• and Chevrolet?

...or is the apple pie supposed to be something else?

Nope. I'm right (click). And instead of Chevrolet, I think I'd like a Solstice before Pontiac goes out of business. I suppose it hasn't done a lot lately, but Pontiac has historically been the GM division that knows how to make cool cars. We had a terrific 1964 Pontiac Tempest station wagon. People don't think of station wagons as cool, but this one was. I learned to drive in it.
-Joe, originally from Detroit-

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:51 PM

Also:

basketball
Wrigley's chewing gum
Ford motor cars
football
the Stars and Stripes
the Pledge of Allegiance
Davy Crockett and the Alamo
coonskin caps
cowboys and stetsons
Hign Noon
John Wayne
Jazz and Blues
the Three Stooges
Mad Magazine
I Was a Teenage Werewolf
drive in movies
Frank Sinatra
Al Capone
Bonnie and Clyde
Mr Magoo
Bugs Bunny
Walt Disney


It's endless, really...

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Neil D
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:38 AM

Much earlier in this thread Lonesome EJ used Daniel Boone as an example of the contradictory nature of Americans ending with "There is a statue of Boone standing in a park in St Louis. He is dressed in buckskin, shouldering his long rifle, and looking west into a sprawl of concrete buildings". I love that imagery. Another example of that American split personality is that our glorious Bill of Rights was written by a man who owned human beings. That's why it's important to "get it in writing". The man who wrote "all men are created equal" may not have believed it, but once it's in print people do start believing. Eventually they will fight, even die, for that belief.
    Would slavery really have ended here 30 years sooner, and without the upheaval, if there had never been a break with Great Britain. Perhaps, but remember that for 160 years slavery in North America WAS a British institution. It would not have been so easy to abolish slavery in 1834 if The United Kingdom contained an area 20 times the size of England whose entire economy was based on slave labor. Even after 1834 Great Britain was complicit in the American institution of slavery. The British textile industry, a major segment of it's economy, relied heavily on the cotton being exported from the American south, providing slaveowners with their biggest market.
   During the American Civil War there was even some fear in Washington that Britain might use it's navy to break the Northern blockade of the South which had cut off that supply of cotton, thus strangling the Southern economy and cutting them off from manufactured goods and raw materials they desperately needed. That would have neutralized the North's greatest advantage. Actually there was never any real threat of this happening, probably because of emerging cotton cultivation in other parts of the British Empire.
Nevertheless, there was strong sympathy for the Confederate States in Britain and The Emancipation Proclamation was aimed at swaying British public opinion as much as for any other reason.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:50 AM

Who was picking the cotton in those other parts of the British empire?

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:56 AM

"That sounds a lot like the program of Ben Frankin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Thomas Paine, etc. in this country, a century after the English Levellers"

Yes, Kent, that's correct. Paine and other political thinkers were greatly influenced by the Leveller writing, especially Agreement of the Free People of England (I have a copy in front of me at this moment).

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 07:08 AM

What I was referring to was the "Not withstanding clause". There is no such clause in our bill of rights.

Furthermore, no one has ever been jailed for being poor!

Habeus Corpus is often suspended during war, even the great Abe Lincoln did it.

Yesterday we drove by a protest rally near the capitol, and the signs all said ONE MAN ONE WOMAN FOR MARRIAGE. They were blocking traffic and really pissed me off. I hate that kind of control freak behaviour! What they were doing was exercising their right to free speech while denying others the right to marry whom they please.

No document can ever cover all contingencies; not even the Constitution of the USA, one of the greates documents in the history of man. As long as humans are running things, there will be problems.
I do believe that I live in one of the greatest countries ever created, but, as great as it is, it is not perfect.The last administration proved that!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:15 AM

Kendall, I'm not sure if your statement that "Habeus Corpus is often suspended during war" is accurate.

See these two articles:

Olbermann: The Day Habeas Corpus Died
By SilentPatriot Monday Oct 16, 2006 11:14pm

"Today, 135 years to the day after the last American President (Ulysses S. Grant) suspended habeas corpus, President Bush signed into law the Military Commissions Act of 2006. At its worst, the legislation allows President Bush or Donald Rumsfeld to declare anyone -- US citizen or not -- an enemy combatant, lock them up and throw away the key without a chance to prove their innocence in a court of law. In other words, every thing the Founding Fathers fought the British empire to free themselves of was reversed and nullified with the stroke of a pen, all under the guise of the War on Terror...

Jonathan Turley joined Keith to talk about the law that Senator Feingold said would be seen as "a stain on our nation's history."

Turley: "People have no idea how significant this is. Really a time of shame this is for the American system.---The strange thing is that we have become sort of constitutional couch potatoes. The Congress just gave the President despotic powers and you could hear the yawn across the country as people turned to Dancing With the Stars. It's otherworldly..People clearly don't realize what a fundamental change it is about who we are as a country. What happened today changed us. And I'm not too sure we're gonna change back anytime soon."

-snip-

Supreme Court rules that Guantanamo detainees have right to habeas corpus (6/12/2008)                          

"In a remarkable decision issued today, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Guantanamo Bay alien detainees have a right to challenge the lawfulness of their detentions in U.S. federal courts. The 5-4 decision was issued in the combined cases of Al Odah v. United States and Boumediene v. Bush.

In its decision, the Court ruled that Congress had not validly suspended habeas corpus. Under Article I, Section 9, Clause 2 of the Constitution, the writ of habeas corpus may only be suspended in times of rebellion or invasion -- neither of which have occurred.

Just as significantly, the Court also ruled that the alternative to habeas corpus that Congress set up in 2005 under the Detainee Treatment Act, which only permits detainees to challenge the lawfulness of their detentions under very restrictive and limited terms, is an inadequate and ineffective alternative to habeas. The DTA, according to the Court, did not provide sufficient legal protections to detainees who sought to challenge their detentions under the DTA scheme."
http://www.humanrightsusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=99&Itemid=38

[italics mine for emphasis]

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM

My observations,made over the last 60 years or so,lead me to believe that the "American Way of Life" is to resolutely deny the facts of history, and to claim,despite the evidence,that the British (or English) brought about the Irish Potato Famine by means of Biological Warfare ( in the 1860s, for Christ's sake !):
That they won both the First & Second World Wars single-handedly,except for the help of John Wayne,without any help or assistance from anyone else,especially the British,despite waiting until the war was /wars were nearly over before actually joining in and giving a hand;
That they are responsible for World peace and stability,singly and wholly,and that all other nations are totally inferior;
That they are totally OBSESSED with guns (don't get me wrong---I have spent a lifetime studying the developement of firearms in the USA !!)to the point where they do,indeed,shoot first & ask questions later;
   That they are the Absolute World Masters of Conspicuous Consumption, and their average individual daily calorie intake,Per Capita, is enough to maintain about 20 refugees in ,say,Somalia.
    And ,worst of all,of course, is that,to paraphrase Pete Seeger,their Government is "Always Right and They're Never Wrong".
    Aside from that ,Yanks are OK, I guess !

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:40 PM

I do not have any current statistics, however, I know it is a fact that a very large percentage of those in prisons in this rich country would not be there if they were not poor - too poor to have had decent nutrition, too poor to get a decent education, too poor to hire a decent lawyer, etc. To me, that means they are in prison for being poor.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 07:10 PM

Being in a Debtors Prison is quite, quite different from being in prison for behaving in some illegal way that stems from being poor, imo.

A debtors prison, imo, is government's way of dealing with a problem; a poor person committing crimes is the action of an individual.

They really are not the same animal.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:57 PM

Dorothy Parshall,

I appreciate your concern for the poor.

The great majority of my patients are poor. They have expressed all sorts of concerns to me. Not one has ever expressed a fear of being imprisoned due to poverty.

Many of my patients are on probation or parole, and a few are currently incarcerated. I always ask them why. Many name a crime which they admit they committed. Some state they were falsely accused of an actual crime. Not one has claimed he was imprisoned because he was poor.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 09:29 PM

Here's an excerpt from an article about crime and poverty in the USA:

Poverty and Crime

By Joseph Williams, Christian Association for Prison Aftercare; 2007

"A study by McClatchy Newspapers, released in March finds that the ranks of the severely impoverished are rapidly escalating. The study found that the percentage of poor Americans who are living in extreme poverty has reached a 32-year high. Today nearly 16 million Americans live in "deep or severe poverty." This is defined as individuals living at half of the federal poverty line. This drastic rise in the level of poverty extends beyond the traditional ghetto and reaches to suburban and rural communities.

The relationship between poverty and crime has been a controversial subject over the years. Many scholars argue that poverty does not have a causal relationship to crime because there are countries in which poverty is very high but the crime rate is relatively low. I would say that in this country it would be hard to argue that there is not a relationship between crime and poverty. Poor people make up the overwhelming majority of those behind bars as 53% of those in prison earned less than $10,000 per year before incarceration"...
http://www.capaassociation.org/newsletter_N009/Articles/PovertyCrime.htm

**
FWIW, I think that that article would have been better if it had made a distinction between the relationship between poverty and certain types of crimes and if it had considered the relationship between poverty and incarceration. Generally speaking, if you have money to hire good lawyers, you're probably less likely to be incarcerated at all or less likely to be incarcerated for as long a period of time as those who used overworked public defenders.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg regarding this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 09:32 PM

Sorry, I meant to write that I think the article would have been better ..."if it had more thoroughly considered the relationship between poverty and incarceration".

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 09:46 PM

Thank you, Azizi. I knew there were appropriate stats somewhere. I too have worked in the criminal INjustice system. I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Janie
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 10:37 PM

Dorothy and Kent,

It is not an issue of either/or. There is a significant correlation between crime and poverty. It is a gross oversimplification to assert that poverty causes crime. It is also a gross oversimplification to say that poverty does not cause crime. Correlations do not signal cause and effect. Strong correlations invite exploration, not positions, in my very humble opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: number 6
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 10:51 PM

Prisons ... Leavenworth? .... debtors prisons ..... Oliver Twist?? ... what the hell has this this got to do with the American way of Life .... how did we get here??

whew!

now ... outta here and back to whatever I was doing.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Janie
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 10:54 PM

Sorry bILL, you're right. I responded to the last couple of posts without regard to the context of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: number 6
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:01 PM

No problem Janie.

Actually I find it interesting how some threads evolve.

Good topic though ... might make an interesting thread on it's own.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:21 PM

Also, Janie, At no point did anyone state that poverty causes crime, only that a disproportionate number of the poor are in prison in this country. I guess that is part of the American way of life.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:36 PM

Janie,

To the best of my knowledge, I have not stated a position on the issue of whether or not poverty causes crime. Since I have said nothing about it at all, I fail to see how I "over-simplified" the issue.

I responded to a different issue: whether or not there are, as Dorothy Parshall stated at 10:45 a.m. on June 7, "thousands in prison for the crime of being poor". As Ebbie and kendall have pointed out, it is one thing to say that poverty produces conditions which increase the crime rate (or the arrest rate or the incarceration rate). It is quite another to say that people are in prison "for the crime of being poor".

There is a strong correlation between maleness and imprisonment, far stronger than the correlation between poverty and imprisonment. Azizi's statistics (9:29 p.m.) indicate that 53% of those imprisoned are poor, but over 90% of those imprisoned are male:http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:BqjLYBnegqIJ:www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm+prison+population+by+gender&cd=1&hl=en&ct=cln   

What would your response be if someone were to state that there are "thousands in prison for the crime of being male"?

My response would be to point out that none of the prisoners or ex-prisoners with whom I have worked have even claimed that they were "in prison for the crime of being male". Writing that would not constitute a denial that maleness and imprisonment are correlated.

There are many problems with the American way of life. Imprisoning people "for the crime of being poor" is not among them.


Kent

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Janie
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:38 PM

I did not read the posts carefully, Dorothy, and was imprudently reacting to the last few, especially to the last one or two posts from Kent and yourself. I apologize if I misconstrued what either one of you were saying through my lack of careful reading.

I suspect, but do not know, that there are a disproportionate number of the poor in prisons throughout the world, and that the condition is not unique to the American Way of Life, whatever the hell that is.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Janie
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:41 PM

Kent, I didn't see your last post while I was writing my last post. It could (should) have been addressed to both of you.

Again, please accept my apologies for not reading through the thread and simply reacting to the tail end of a conversation.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Janie
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:53 PM

Can I blame it on being tired and ready for bed, but trying to stay awake to see if "the Consortium" ends up with the high bid for blue-eyed Joe Offer?





No?



Well hells bells. Guess that means I got to take responsibility for myself.





Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:05 AM

It's Ok Janie. OK to disagree; OK to be tired; OK to whatever! And as I said a couple days ago, I think, the American Way of Life is whatever, whoever, where ever thinks it is! And we shall need to agree to disagree and let everyone believe what they choose to believe. Have a good sleep!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:07 AM

Janie,

Gladly accepted.

Kent

P.S.

If you get a chance, let us know your perspective on the American way of life.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:11 AM

You're right, Dorothy. It is whatever whoever thinks it is. You could go on saying what it is forever and not come to the end of it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:20 AM

How did I end up getting blamed for this?

G'nite, all.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:56 AM

The most significant part of being an American has to do with the respect for the evolution of our Constitution which has been repeatedly violated by jingoists and many politicians.

Separation of Church and State is unique to our country and was what the founding Fathers intended. There were no prayers at the meeting of the writing of the Constitution.

Ben Franklin said that Democracy was great if we can keep it. (paraphrasing, here).

Those who accuse others of being unAmerican are often themselves the violators of the principles of the Constitution.

Freedom of thought and belief is one of the hallmarks of our Constitutional principles.
The right to dissent is built in from the Boston Tea Party to present times.

Saving the country from the tyranny of the majority is also declared.

Americans are best described as those who think the way they want and not given to
accept edicts handed down by so-called "rulers". We have no king or queen in this country.

The "Exceptionalists" that have emerged recently violate the principles of American Democracy. This notion of "Manifest Destiny" has to be re-evaluated as to its efficacy.
Democracy can never be forced on unwilling countries. That in itself is an American principle that needs to be underscored.

Americans have traditionally been advocates for public education. "Inalienable rights"
is a concept not to be taken lightly. We can be proud of the principles that were brought forth in the signing of the Constitution with the caveat that slavery was not addressed.
This is a terrible inconsistency.

The rise of corporate fascism in the US does not correlate with American basic principles.
Powerful lobbies have stolen these ideas to further their interests. (Greed).

Unfortunately, the mistreatment of Native Americans at the inception of our country
belies "all men our created equal" but that principle is not found in other documents
in other constitutions. It shows how inconsistent we are with our principles and how we have a long way to go to honor them.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

bubblyrat,

Did you read my comment on stereotypes? To save you the trouble of digging around for it, I'll repeat it.

"Stereotypes afford us the luxury of not thinking, but eventually, they will extract the PRICE of our not thinking." "J. Harris, author of Stranger in two worlds.

Years ago I made a broad sweeping statement about something and my wife, Annie, said in response, "Yes, and all Indians walk single file."

I said, "What? why do you say that"? She replied, "Because I saw an Indian once and he was walking single file."

Finally, we serious historians know the facts about history, and we don't get our information from John Wayne movies either.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:46 PM

"We have no king or queen in this country."

Oh, yes you do! He's called "the president", and he gets to be king of the USA for 4 years....or sometimes 8 years. ;-) No other western democracy has a chief executive who looms so large in their national consciousness as the American president does in yours. He's like an emperor. He's like Caesar.

You don't realize it simply because you're so used to it that you don't notice. You'd have to live in another country for awhile, and then you'd get it.

(Now, when De Gaulle was the leader of France he was like that too. He had such a big ego that he made it that way. It was as if De Gaulle WAS France. That's rare in European democracies these days.)

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:36 PM

Our president can and is over ruled when he gets too big for his britches.
The Executive, the judicial and the legislative all have equal powers. It's called checks and balances. They have never had the power that the old Kings enjoyed.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:40 PM

LH:

With all due respect you are talking through your hat.

The prerogatives and perks of the office are impressive but he is a chairperson, not a monarch.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:47 PM

Ah, but gentlemen...monarchs have also had to deal with the judiciary and the legislature and have often been overruled by same. Study your English history. If the crown could not get Parliament onside for funding or policy, then the crown was stopped dead in its tracks. There were plenty of checks and balances in the British system long before the advent of the USA. The main problem with the colonies was that they were not given proportionate representation IN the British parliament...and that led to unresolved issues (mostly monetary ones, in fact) that culminated in the Revolutionary War.

The main difference is this: Your president is (usually) not placed through heredity and cannot serve for life. He or she is limited to 2 consecutive terms of 4 years each, providing he or she gets elected.

I am not saying your president is identical to a monarch. I'm saying that the position of chief executive in your country has taken on the psychological dimensions of a monarchy in the minds of the general public, that's all. It's gone a bit out of proportion, I think.

As for talking through my hat...(grin)...well, if you had as handsome a hat as I have here in my possession, you'd talk through it too. It's my folk festival hat, and it's a beauty.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM

You, of all people, should know the difference between substance and the clouds of media glitter which strangle the airwaves of our fair land. For fie on you for failing to make the distinction clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:11 PM

Oh, piffle. I know how Americans fixate on their presidents. It's bizarre. The president is considered like he was some kind of surrogate father figure for the whole nation...the commander-in-chief...and also the most important man in the entire world. Canadians don't take their prime minister nearly so seriously, because they know he's just some other guy in a business suit. ;-) You'd have to grow up here to know what I mean about that...or at least live here for a few years.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:49 PM

Well, I'd guess that I know a few Americans - or citizens of the United States, even - and none of them would ever consider the president a surrogate father figure for the whole nation...and also the most important man in the entire world. He would rarely even be considered the most important person in the US. He is, for those of us with military backgrounds, the commander-in-chief, and that is by definition.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:20 PM

When was Bush overruled?

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:39 PM

One example of the failure of the impotent congress.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:04 PM

Back to the topic: "The American Way of Life" is a phrase that was once used when someone was trying to sell a bill of goods in the name of patriotism. It usually was preceded by "to Defend.." or "To protect..." or "to fight for...".

People were pretty wise to it's uses when Jessica Mitford parodied it by naming her expose of the funeral business "The American Way of Death" back in 1963.

There are a couple other aphorisms that we tend to subscribe to, though-- "The Land of Opportunity" and "There is no free lunch"--and of course, the "Golden Rule"--"The one with the gold makes the rules"--

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:08 PM

The previous president was not even legally elected - Read The Betrayal of the American People. Otherwise I would say the US got what it deserved. NO country deserves the last 8 years. No new president deserves to have to clean up the incredible mess left behind by the criminals who ran this country - into the ground.

Constitution?? Bill of Rights?? Not worth the paper on which they are printed with criminals in office who betrayed the people every step of the way. We can only hope we will regain the lot rights during this administration.

Sure there are countries with much worse. But that begs the point. I do not accept any of this blithering about the "American Way of Life". There is no such thing. Just a bunch of folks trying to get through the best they can - like anywhere else.

I'm with LH. I never should have left Canada. I know folks are unhappy with the current state of affairs there but they have not had to endure Bush - except by fallout and there was probably plenty of that.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:46 PM

While, IMHO, it should have happened many more times, Congress overrode Bush's veto of at least four bills and the Supreme Court ruled against him several times. One example of the latter was when the Supreme ruled in June 2008 that Section 7 of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (which basically eliminated habeas corpus for Guantanamo prisoners) unconstitutional. One example of the former was the override of his veto of the Medicare Improvements for Patients and Providers Act in July 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Janie
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:38 PM

Kent,

As many others have essentially expressed here, I think it a pretty meaningless cliche in this day and age. That is probably as it should be.   


I confess I get a little thrill when I hear President Obama say the words "....consistent with our values." I understand that to mean the values that are expressed in our Constitution. As a nation we did not invent those values, but our founding fathers were brash enough to think those values could be institutionalized on a grand scale, and they were.   However, the world is a different place now. There are more people and fewer resources.   This country does not present the same opportunities to individuals that it once did. Makes sense. Fewer resources means fewer opportunities, especially if "opportunity" is viewed as the opportunity to create wealth. The human race has reached, and perhaps exceeded, the available resources to sustain all of us.

It seems to me we are faced with a dilemma. We hold values that we deem to be of universal application. But the universal application of those values, given human nature and the limits of resources, could mean our demise.



LH, I think you do not grasp the USA system of governance, nor the national psyche of the USA as well as you suppose. The office of president in no way has the same power that a monarch has in a monarchial system.   Our democracy is very different from a parlimentary democracy. Not saying it is better or worse, only that it is different. The role and function of a President is not the same as that of a Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 02:58 AM

I do grasp the USA system of governance, Janie, and I actually think it is quite good in some respects. I particularly admire, for instance, the idea of having 2 elected levels of Congressmen: the representatives and the senators. That's an excellent idea. In the Canadian parliament we have only one elected group: MPs (members of Parliament) and one appointed group: senators. Both vote on passing legislation.

Since the senators are appointed by the ruling party, the public has no say in who gets to be a senator. The ruling party naturally appoints people who will support it in future against the other parties. This opens the door to all kinds of dirty dealing and influence peddling by the party in power.

The American system is WAY better when it comes to that.

And it has some other very good points.

No, what I was referring to was not so much the president's actual powers in a technical and legal sense...but the way he is seen in a psychological sense by the population. Americans take their presidents far more seriously than we take our prime ministers, they expect more of their presidents and idolize them more...and that can lead to presidents having perhaps more influence over the public than they ought to. That's what I'm referring to.

Not the rules. The psychology. It's like an imperial presidency in the USA. The Canadian prime minister is just one of many MPs, the one who has been chosen to lead his party. He's still, however, just an MP. He has to get elected in his local riding, just like any other MP. His position, accordingly, is intrinsically more humble than the position of president is in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:17 AM

It doesn't really matter what form a government takes; the bottom line is; humans run it, and humans are flawed. Pride, greed and intolerence rule.
Reminds me of that bumper sticker, "If it has tires or testicles you will have trouble with it."

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:17 AM

Little Hawk's preferred system of governance is that of "The United Federation of Planets"--

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Janie
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:10 AM

Ooh, I want one of those bumper stickers, Kendall:>)

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:27 AM

If you do, Janie, I'll get one that says "If it floats, flies, or fucks, rent it!.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: heric
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:24 AM

If you think on it LH, you will see that no one has asked or implied that you should say nice things about the US or Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:12 PM

I don't care. I'll say nice things about America and Americans if I damned well want to and nobody can stop me! ;-D










*****

M. Ted is right. The form of government I favor is that used by the United Federation of Planets (see reruns of "Star Trek - The Next Generation" for instruction on how it all works in that society).

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:16 PM

Dan, good on you for suggesting that the question can be answered by the reading of the US Constitution. Every American should read it.

The problem with Congress, Kendall, is that they have been co-opted by corporations who have violated the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Also by former presidents who have done the same. I don't see as how they represent an American Way of Life.

The prognosis for the future is that these corporations will become more global and neoliberal and the rise of the right-wing in Europe is disturbing along with the Democratic capitulation to porous borders and corporate affiliations.

The checks and balances are built into the Constitution. Unfortunately these are trespassed as in the infamous case of Gore V. Bush.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:43 PM

An illustration of Frank's point is the HUNDREDS of "signing statements" GW Bush issued, saying essentially "I'll do what I want, because I AM in charge... and we'll let the Constitutional lawyers fight over it later... after we have done what we intended!"

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:23 PM

Ja! Ven der fuehrer says "jump"...you bedder JUMP!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:12 PM

"It's like an imperial presidency in the USA. The Canadian prime minister is just one of many MPs, the one who has been chosen to lead his party. He's still, however, just an MP. He has to get elected in his local riding, just like any other MP. His position, accordingly, is intrinsically more humble than the position of president is in the USA." Little Hawk

May I suggest that a primary reason that US citizens 'fixate' more on their presidents than Canadians do on their prime ministers is that we, in the US, know that we are stuck with him for a period of time. In Canada, the PM may find himself out the door on a much less predictable timeline.

I have read that human nature reports itself as more content with a known measure than with unpredictability.

"It's known as 'hope impedes adaptation'. In other words, if you're stuck with something, you learn to live with it. And the sooner you learn to live with it, the happier you will be."

Why We Make Mistakes
Joseph T. Hallinan
Chapter 12

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:22 PM

Ebbie - Are we supposed to learn to live with "it" ? Abusive presidents, eroded rights, abusive spouses...... And that would make us happy?????

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:03 AM

T'ain't my postulation, Dorothy P. Repeated studies evidently show that.

My question in my mind was: If you are given life in prison without possibility of parole are you happier than if you were sentenced to 40 years, say, with time off for good behavior?

That doesn't sound right.

On the other hand, you took the question in a different direction. So far as I can see, neither the reported result nor my citation of it apply to "Abusive presidents, eroded rights, abusive spouses......" That would denote defeatism and that's not at all what the studies are talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:25 AM

200 - dunno why...

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:51 AM

Good point, Ebbie. Yes, that does have its effect. Your president is definitely in for four years, short of death or a successful impeachment (and that's very unlikely). A Canadian prime minister is in a more vulnerable position unless his party has been elected with a majority government. If so, he's basically all set for the next 4 to 5 years, but he must call an election before 5 years have passed. Many Canadian governments have been minority governments (since we have a genuine 3 to 4 party system going most of the time in this country). A minority government can find itself forced to go to the polls at any time if the other parties gang up on it over some major piece of legislation, and that makes the future uncertain for our prime ministers much of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:42 PM

I have an old book, Humanity and Happiness, which was written by a Norwegian during the Nazi occupation, hidden, and published after the war. The author maintains that the Norwegians were never happier than when they were united in striving toward a common cause - surviving the occupation. He postulates that humans must strive, have reason to strive in order to be happy.

The corollary to this is the comment made to me by then president of Antioch College, Arthur Morgan, as we walked across campus (1957): that the highest incidence of suicide was appearing in those countries with the most socialism because people no longer needed to strive.

There is a line, different for each individual and, perhaps, each society/culture, between life being too stressful and having nothing, or insufficient, to strive towards.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 01:15 PM

That's another fascinating angle on human existence, Dorothy. I remember my mother telling me that the happiest time she can recall in (Canadian) society was the war years during WWII. She says that the common sense of urgency and shared purpose in fighting the war brought people together in a way she hasn't seen before or since, and that it was wonderful. She was living in the small province of Prince Edward Island and the big city of Toronto in Canada during those years.

People do indeed need a sense of purpose and something to strive for to be happy.

It's not necessarily true that socialism deprives people of this...but it can...depending on how a socialist regime conducts itself at various levels and on what is happening generally in that society. Over-regulation of life depresses people. This is so in both capitalist and socialist societies.

I've been in Cuba, for instance, and I found the morale of the Cubans I met...their general sense of purpose and happiness...to be stronger than that of North Americans. Perhaps that is because they are under an American embargo...thus they find a sense of common purpose and pride in surviving it.

At any rate, I found them to be very happy and motivated people who most certainly were striving.

And, yes, I know some Cubans try to get out and get to North America...but so do many people in ALL the Latin American countries, so that's not a situation unique to Cuba. The biggest flight of Latin Americans to the USA comes from Mexico and Central America.

As for socialism and capitalism, they work best in a healthy mix, I think. I just had a friend who was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He started getting headaches last week, and the doctor was concerned about it. He was sent for a Catscan, and they discovered a tumor in the right frontal area of his skull. He was immediately sent to hospital on the Wednesday of that week for further observation. On Monday of the following week the operated on him, opening up the skull and removing the tumor. The operation went well. He is now back home and rapidly recovering.

What did all this cost him and his family? Nothing. Such medical care is free in Canada because we have a universal socialized medical system. No charge for the examinations. No charge for the Catscan. No charge for the hospital stay. No charge for the operation.

And yet we also have capitalism, of course, and my friend supports himself by running a small construction company, so he is not lacking for reasons to strive. He works hard.

That's what I like in a society. Socialism where it is most needed, which is in a few vital public service and administrational areas, and capitalism to take care of all the rest (the rest being normal businesses, marketing, manufacturing, entertainment and all the usual stuff that capitalism does so well).

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 01:41 PM

Happiness requires obstacles that are at least partially known, and the sense they are being or can be overcome. Of course, the presence of obstacles implies the presence of some goal, purpose or intent against which the obstacle is seen to operate.

Magically having everything "be" perfect is a delusory version which in fact (if it were possible) would breed a kind of mute unhappiness unless it included more goals to go for. Having everything provuided for you forever--the fate of some trust fund babies, for example--generates brain-dead humans, or, in stronger souls, rejection or rebellion.

This is why Jefferson's great wisdom in using the phrase "the pursuit of happiness" was so enduring.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 01:57 PM

I personally have no particular desire to strive toward anything and would be quite content if everything were provided for everybody. I think trust fund babies are different because even if they have everything they can look around and see that others don't.
But anyway, if the magic wand ever got waved, I for one would be quite happy to sit and watch the sunsets and read National Enquirer..might even subscribe rather than reading them in the grocery store...I would rock in a rocking chair and gossip and scold wayward children and drink real coke. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 02:04 PM

Really, mg? Hmmmm.

Well, I think I'd be reasonably content too if everything were provided, cos I have a lot of hobbies and interests that keep me going.

Nevertheless, I can say that I've been happiest when I was involved in some project with other people that really made sense to me and that seemed valuable. It went way beyond reasonable contentment to being genuinely inspired and truly excited about what was happening, and enlivened and strengthened by it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 02:42 PM

I have state benefits so I have achieved my personal highest goal already...just have to coast now. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:12 PM

How mindnumbingly boring. There is no way I would just sit and rock if everything were provided for me.

This speaks to what I've often said: When a person or a company or a town has reached optimum growth, don't think you have to make it bigger, instead turn your attention toward its enrichment. And I do not mean money.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM

The times when I have been unemployed have been so busy with volunteer work that it was hard to fit a job back into my life! I guess I do like to be meaningfully - to me -occupied. I am currently striving to organize trip to Quebec and back and to have things to occupy me when I return in late August. Striving to help my community be the best possible place to live, to improve lives of those I meet in whatever way possible. Maybe someday this will, in fact, be an international way of life. I'm sure it is for many people, world-wide, now.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:35 PM

Ah. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, Dorothy P.

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:04 PM

A man died and when he regained his wits he realized that he was in paradise.
Suddenly, his guardian angel appeared, and informed the man that he could have anything he wanted in any amount for as long as he wanted it.

For a year or so he pigged out on booze, rich foods, stacks of money and loose women. In time he became bored and he asked his Guardian angel for something to do.
Angel said, "No. That is the one and only thing you can never have again."
The poor guy groaned and said, "You mean I am doomed to spend eternity with nothing worthwhile to do?; I may as well be in Hell"!

The angel said, "Where do you think you are"?

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:13 PM

LOL!!!!!!!!! Great parable, Kendall!

Subject: RE: BS: What is The American Way of Life?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:03 PM

HE shoulda wished for a toolshed and a stack of lumber and invented his own things to do.

A