BS: Afghan War mistake or wise

Subject: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM

If we do not continue these endless foriegn civil wars, be it 17 to twenty years at a stretch, the US would leave a vacuum to be filled by some other country to play policeman to the world with a better or worse agenda than our own. Who would do it? Russia, China?... So we slog on.

On the other hand we have already been economicly defeated by our own rich citizens who control our banks and Wall Street. As a result we have no capital to engage in war. (and that bears repeating)

If the world wants us to be the police then they will continue to prop up our treasury with loans. If not, the loans will dry up and so will we.

So we fight out of tradition and a fear of someone else doing it instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 09:29 AM

What is winning?

Putting the atomic bomb genie back in the bottle?
That seems undoable. Getting a stable Pakistan that does not desire nuclear war?



If Pakistan were the USA their version of California has been taken over by a right wing evangelical militia. They could use help but their soverignty and religious differnces forbid it. Will France dome to their aid? I doubt it. Short of Pakistan going to the UN and pleading for help, our intervention may only make things worse.

Even after the Obama speech I am still left wondering what is winning?

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 09:34 AM

I read an article this week about how the US is losong its status as a first rate force in the world economically and politically to China. My reaction? Go for it! Let us send 1000 troops while China sends tens of thousands. It works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 09:44 AM

Whoa, What would Rush Limbaugh say? What if China mopped up the mess in one year? The thought of hoards of Chinese troops, even as Allies, scares the hell out of your average American. They could march 3 million troops over the mountains into Afghanistan if they had to.

But seriously I do not know what mopping up means. I do not know what winning is. ( which makes for a good song title if it isn't already)

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 10:44 AM

The most enlightening discourse on the Afghan decision I have heard today was on the Diane Rehms show.
Col McReedy was eye opening amid the other voices of the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:02 AM

I'm not real worried about Bin Ladin and 3000 deaths total.

Been Drinkin' kills between 16,000 and 20,000 in traffic fatalitiesANNUALLY in the U.S.

I don't have the statistics for Been Arguin', Been Shootin' or Been Dopin', but suspect they're each about the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:57 AM

I'm not at all sure invading Afghanistan was the best course of action following 9/11, but the logic of equating accidental deaths, no matter how preventable nor how irresponsible the behaviors that caused them, with cold-blooded murder escapes me. Even the legal system, no paragon of logic itself in many regards, makes such a distinction. It's not a matter of quantity, but of intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:33 PM

Maybe the 3000 dead remark was a reference for revenge and the need to avenge those deaths with 10 times that many. Or maybe its just the drink talkin.
......................

I have been trying to read between the lines as I listen to all the various experts on the subject. None of them say it outright, as if they did say it outright it might extinguish the magic, but I think I heard that this 18 month strategy in Afghanistan is only camoflage and the real policy will be to hold the western border as Pakistan pushes the Taliban into our forces. I hope this is the case since the stated purpose of fighting a virtually non existent Al Qeda is actually absurd.

There is more we don't know about this region and people than we do know. We have more understanding of Dolphin vocabulary than we have of the Poshtun. They are alien to the way Wsterners think or even imagine. They have been atWar for 43 years without a break. This is similar to the experienced North Vietnamese having a long established route to travel be it above ground or underground.

We have certain friends in Afghanistan as long as we keep giving them huge sums of money. That's not a very good foundation for a lasting friendship.

Perhaps I am just hoping we are faking right and then go left and declare victory, but it bugs me that I do not know what winning is.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:38 PM

It was all a horrible mistake...and almost every day over here there is yet another dead soldier buried...especially here in The West Country where so many of them come from...

Why are they dead?

WHO has benefitted from this craziness?

The troops should be sent into Wall Street and the White House to arrest those who have done far more damage to the Western World than Bin Laden could ever hope to do..

It is time to end this 'war' and bring those young people home.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:50 PM

What has happened to me?

I used to say exactly what Lizzie just said.


(on the far side however I don't think the World Health Organization has benifitted from this craziness.)

Did Obama fear he would be called weak??
There will still be the crzies who will say Obama is still being weak.
Maybe Obama is trying to avoid a civil war here by having one over there.
Maybe there is a national security report to hot to be communicated to all of us who pay for, fight for or die for this war.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:51 PM

Home to what? A ruined economy, no jobs, homes foreclosed, politicians as corrupt as any in Afghanistan?

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:29 PM

wise move for the War profiteers, military industrial complex, possible pipe-line from the Caspian basin to Pakistan/India, the multi billion dollar drug trade....

I didn't watch more than a minute of the Presidents address last night, sounded like re-packaged GW Bush....

reminded me of a song from the 60's by 'The Fugs'... "Kill for Peace"

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: DougR
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:40 PM

Jeeze. What a bunch of downers.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:41 PM

...what bankley said.

It is re-packaged GW Bush, because the same basic forces are running the scenario regardless of who sits in the Oval Office pretending to be "the leader".

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:59 PM

Doug, you've got to start reading Eric Margolis regularly to get a refreshing new viewpoint on things. ;-) It could change your thinking quite a bit. Go to EricMargolis.com and read all about what a huge mistake the Afghan War has been and continues to be.

Margolis is a Canadian newspaper columnist. He has had extensive experience in central Asia, and he's written some books about the overall situation there.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:00 PM

Y'all remember when I kept sayin' that politics is strictly a matter of methodology? And that once the method is established, its almost impossible for anyone in the system/methodology to do anything significantly different?

Yeah.........Been working that way for years and will continue to do so until the method changes (read: revolution). Sorry, I'd love to see Obama find a backbone to go with his beautiful rhetoric.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:01 PM

I am trying not to give an MTV analysis of this complex situation but Occams Razor and common sense whould not be disregarded either.

Some say If we got India to stop all warefare over Kashmir we would castrate the Al Quada party in Pakistan who rely on the India conflict to sell their bile and bombings. Some say it would not help.

If India would go along I say try it. The Kashmir sheep would agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:03 PM

The telephone number for the Hal Lindsay Report linked to above is 1-888-RAPTURE.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:04 PM

Ya' know Donnie, I dated a girl once who wore Cashmere sweaters and I dunno' what I liked best........feeling her tits or the sweaters.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: gnu
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:18 PM

Ahhh... fish or bait hook?

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: bankley
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:37 PM

c'mon gnu, take a nibble...

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:42 PM

There weren't any Afghanis on the planes of 9/11 any more than there were any Iraqis. They were from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, and they got their flying training in the USA. Two out of the 19 involved may have had some training in a camp in Afghanistan back in the 1990s.

Attacking Afghanistan was a gesture, an exercise in public relations seen as politically necessary in the wake of 9/11. There is good reason to believe that the Afghani leaders could have been persuaded to hand over Bin Laden, but that wasn't the gesture which was required by Washington.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: number 6
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:47 PM

"Sorry, I'd love to see Obama find a backbone to go with his beautiful rhetoric."

Too many "leaders" these days with beautiful rhetoric and no backbone.

but .... too many people are falling for all this "beautiful rhetoric".

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:02 PM

You have hit the nail exactly on the head, McGrath.

"Attacking Afghanistan was a gesture, an exercise in public relations seen as politically necessary in the wake of 9/11. There is good reason to believe that the Afghani leaders could have been persuaded to hand over Bin Laden, but that wasn't the gesture which was required by Washington."

But that, of course, is assuming that 911 was really just a foreign-planned attack on the USA and not a made-in-America operation to provide an excuse for launching wars in central Asia. If it was not an inside job, then your interpretation of it as a PR gesture is dead on. If it was an inside job, however, then it was much more than just a gesture and an exercise in PR to attack the Afghans...it was part of a pre-arranged plan of action, one that has played perfectly into the hands of the military-industrial complex and their corporate friends and masters.

I tend to think the latter, but I can't say I'm 100% sure about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:32 PM

The plan for 9/11 was hatched by KSM in 1996 when it was presented to OBL. At that time it was much bigger. OBL was of the opinion that it was too big to organise and keep secret. The operation was discussed by Osama bin Laden, Kahlid Sheikh Mohammed and Al-Qaeda Chief of Operations Mohammed Atef. That caused the first delay and the operation was scaled down and was given the go ahead by bin Laden from Afghanistan in 1998 or very early in 1999. The first "pilots" were dedicated Jihadists from the Yemen and they were sent to the USA but their english was not good enough and they were not good student pilots, this caused the second delay to the mission.

Late in 1999 Mohammed Atta and four others left Germany and travelled to Afghanistan where they were selected for the operation by Osama bin Laden personally. They were chosen because they were used to living in the west, were proficient in english and it was easier for them to get entry visas to the US from Germany.

The attacks were thought of, planned and financed from Afghanistan. Where those who carrried out the attack were born is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 04:25 PM

Agree with McGrath. And with the Russian position, which is that it is a no-win situation.

A large part of the Pushtuns in Afghanistan have no representation in the government; most of the Taliban are young men of their group.
They are conservative, with an Islamic culture that dates back to biblical time. Treating them as if they were Al Queda is wrong.

Stepping up the war will cause them to back off for a while, but does not change their culture and they will be back after the troops leave.

The same people in Pakistan were left alone and caused little trouble, until the war stirred them up and Pakistan started to support the U. S. and alliance policies.

Recognition of their culture and guarantees to leave them alone in their area could lead them to expose the Al Queda members.

Obama has made a bad mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 04:31 PM

The attacks were thought of, planned and financed from Afghanistan. Where those who carrried out the attack were born is irrelevant.

Why is "planned and financed from Afghanistan" more relevant than where those who carried it out came from? There is no evidence I have ever seen that Afghanis were involved in the planning, still less the finance, or were in the know.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:01 PM

It could work either way.

There'll be those who won't want to miss a chance to kill the invaders while they are there, including those whom are up for "martyrdom".

But on the other hand there'll also be those who decide that they might as well just sit it out until the occupying forces do leave, and be better ready for the takeover battle then.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:05 PM

"Sit it out" (McGrath) is the likely result. There is no win to an action of this kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:16 PM

It's "Pashtuns", Q.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:35 PM

Sorry should have made it clearer. Mohammed Atef, Al-Qaeda's Chief of Operations, on instruction from Osama bin Laden was told to organise the the attacks that were eventually carried out on 11th September 2001. Those instructions were given in Afghanistan, those activities were carried out by Atef in Afghanistan, Al-Qaeda operated from bases inside Afghanistan where that organisation was protected and sheltered by the Taleban.

Mohammed Atta the leader of the 9/11 hijackers travelled to Afghanistan late in 1999 where he was selected to lead the mission by Osama bin Laden himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:42 PM

Little Hawk, Pashtun spelled more than one way, but yours is the usual. And one I used in previous posts on the region. Two or three threads about the war in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:44 PM

"A large part of the Pushtuns in Afghanistan have no representation in the government; most of the Taliban are young men of their group.
They are conservative, with an Islamic culture that dates back to biblical time. Treating them as if they were Al Queda is wrong."

IIRC Hamid Karzai is Pashtun from the Durrani tribe. The Ghilzai tribe and the Durrani tribe have been enemies for centuries. The Taleban have been given every opportunity to join the political process.

Obvious point I know but no Islamic Culture dates back to biblical times. Islamic religion kicked in around 640 AD hardly biblical. I was not aware that they are being treated like Al-Qaeda.

US-Operation Enduring Freedom-Afghanistan troops if they find Taleban assisting Al-Qaeda will attack them, that is after all their mission and mandate from the UN.

NATO-ISAF troops were deployed to provide security for UNAMA's Provincial Reconstruction Teams and to train and mentor the Afghan Security Forces. When they deployed throughout Afghanistan in April 2006 they had no combat role. The Taleban in Helmand; Kandahar & Uruzgan Provinces declared war on NATO-ISAF troops not the other way about.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 06:27 PM

Invading Afganistan was the wrong thing to do in the first place... It didn't make anyone any safer... Just got alot of folk killed and exdtracted more cash from the American working class... The rich don't pay for these stupic Bush wars in the manner that the woking class does... The rich will still be rich but the working cvlass is going backwards at an astounding rate... And with each day, the rich are the ones profiting from these stupid ass wars and the working class are diein' in them...

Hell no, there was no reason to get into Afganistan... If you wanted to go after the folks who were responsible for 9/11 then look at Saidi Arabia, folks... That is where these folks were from... Not Afganistan...

(But, Boberdz... These folks all trained in Afganistan...)

Who cares where they trained??? Had the US not had such a stuck-up and dogmatic foreign policy it would have had better access to information and then it could have taken out these training bases... But no... The US has to go and get all huffy puffy when another country does this or that and then the US pulls it's people out and shuns these countries or worse... Like sanctions... Then the US wonders why the heck they don't know what the heck isd going on in those countries??? Duhhhh??? Dumb foriegn policy...

The Afganistan war was wrong then and is wrong now...

Get the F out...

Bad Obama, bad...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 07:22 PM

Logic doesn't always play a great part in these things, but the logical thing to do for the Taliban (which in practice seems to mean all those engaged in fighting against the current regime) is to phase down operations for the next 18 months.   That makes it look like "the surge" is working. Reduced American casualties would be seen as proof of that.

If the pullout doesn't actually start on schedule in July 2011, with the Presidential elections coming up, Spring 2012 would be the time to build up activities again, especially concentrating on trying to kill as many American forces as possible.

The thing is, with Al Qaeda, normal logic doesn't work, because they aren't in it to hold territory, but to provoke the Americans etc into over-stretching themselves. Nothing would suit them better than to see America bogged down in Afghanistan for as long as possible.

But that's not true for "the Taliban". They actually do want the Americans out of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 10:11 PM

Obama's analysis is worth listening to.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 10:14 PM

Published: December 2, 2009 in the NY Times:

A month ago, Donnie Jones, a 40-year-old Republican who lives outside Dallas, told pollsters that he was not sure President Obama had a plan for the war in Afghanistan. But after hearing the president speak Tuesday night, Mr. Jones feels reassured that Mr. Obama not only has a plan, but also one he can generally support.


Margaret Gilbert, 62, a Democrat from Portsmouth, Va., told the same pollsters that she did not want the United States to send more troops to Afghanistan. But after listening to Mr. Obama, Ms. Gilbert now believes that he has no choice.

And Dave Cegledi, a 66-year-old independent from Olmsted Falls, Ohio, says he does not like Mr. Obama any more today than he did in November. But Mr. Cegledi thinks the president gave a good speech — good enough, indeed, that he might vote for him for re-election if the strategy for Afghanistan works.

Mr. Obama intended his speech on Tuesday at West Point to rally Americans behind his plan to send 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan and to set an 18-month timetable for starting a withdrawal. And interviews on Wednesday suggested that, while opinions on the war remained wildly diverse, Mr. Obama managed to persuade a significant number of people on both sides of the political aisle, though it was impossible to know how many.

Many Democrats who opposed the war said they now understood the need for escalation, in some cases to the point of supporting it. And Republicans who had thought Mr. Obama unwilling or unable to send more troops praised his decision, though many also criticized him for articulating a timetable for bringing troops home.

"I like the fact that he's sending more troops," said George Bronner, 45, a Republican from Knoxville, Tenn. "This speech does change my opinion about Obama, and it changes it for the better. I didn't think he was going to step up to the plate and get more people over there."

The people interviewed on Tuesday night and Wednesday were randomly selected from a list of respondents to a poll conducted last month by CBS News, which is a frequent partner with The New York Times on national polls. In that poll, 53 percent approved of Mr. Obama's overall job performance, compared with 36 percent who did not, but only 38 percent approved of his handling of the war in Afghanistan. Opinions on troop levels were almost evenly divided, with 39 percent supporting a decrease, 32 percent calling for an increase and 20 percent saying to keep it the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:58 PM

"Invading Afganistan was the wrong thing to do in the first place"

Who "invaded" Afghanistan Bobert? Certainly not the US.


"... It didn't make anyone any safer"

The intervention in Afghanistan immediately made about 58% of the population of Afghanistan safer for a start.

"Hell no, there was no reason to get into Afganistan"

Take that one up with the United Nations, they declared Afghanistan a "Failed State" in which case they are compelled to act. Their "Failed State" status had nothing whatsoever to do with Al-Qaeda or with the attacks on the USA launched by Al-Qaeda on 9/11. The overriding reason to get into Afghanistan was to return the country to stable governance for the good of the country and the region as a whole.

"The Afganistan war was wrong then and is wrong now"

IIRC Obama said throughout his election campaigning that he was going to redirect US effort away from and out of Iraq and into Afghanistan. So Bobert he is only doing what he said he was going to do all along, if you believed that to be wrong why did you vote for him?

My objection stems from the way he has done this and the time it has taken him to do it. It was always as plain as a pike-staff that McChrystal's reading of the situation was right and that Joe Biden's was wrong (again), there never was an decision or choice to make. By dithering as he (Obama) did it just made him look weak and signalled lack of resolution or commitment.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: GUEST,Goose Gander
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:58 PM

It was a mistake, unfortunately Obama seems determined to dig that hole deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 12:21 AM

T:

If you watch his speech, he makes it clear that his deliberation--NOT "dithering"--was sober and deliberate and well-justified given the number of conflicting pressures converging on the issue.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 12:42 AM

If one is supposed to bomb and invade a country simply because some few people based somewhere in that country get together and secretly plan attacks of their own choosing that are launched on other countries, then virtually every country in Latin America and many in the Middle East and elsewhere would have very strong reasons for bombing and invading the USA right now...because the USA has long served as a covert base for CIA-sponsored and USA-financed wars, assassinations, coups, and many acts of terrorism in a great variety of foreign countries, and the CIA is even an official arm of the American government....while Al Queda was certainly not an official arm of the Taliban. They acted independently, not on behalf of Afghanistan, its government or its people. They were not an instrument of Aghan policy.

There's a much more direct and serious responsibility behind CIA terror tactics than the Taliban can bear for anything that a few people in isolated Al Queda camps in the mountains may or may not have done.

Yet, I do not hear supporters of the Aghan War suggesting that all the countries which have been covertly and overtly attacked in one way or another by the CIA and the US military in the last 60 years get together and launch an anti-terrorist crusade on the USA, bomb it into submission, invade it, and occupy it with their armies. (assuming they had the power to...they don't)

I wonder why we have such a double standard in international ethics? Could it be that it's nothing more than "might makes right"? I think so. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, you know. But when the gander's a superpower, well, then the gander does what it bloody well pleases, right? And it attacks whom it bloody well pleases. Every superpower in history has done that. And they all act as if their own hands are clean when they do it, but that is not the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 12:55 AM

Let me amend one sentence above to say: Every great power in history has done that (committing aggression and terrorist attacks), and they all act as if their own hands are clean when they do it, but that is not the case.

Russia has done it. Japan has done it. Britain, France, and Germany have done it. Italy has done it. China has done it. Spain used to do it when they were a great power. Rome did it. Persia did it. All the great powers in history have done it when they had the strength to do it and when they thought they could get away with it. The USA presently holds the crown for doing it more than anyone else in the last 50 or 60 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:47 AM

Still sent all the wrong signals Amos. Blethering on about timetables for withdrawal is another major mistake. Barack Obama is going to prove to be as big, if not a bigger disaster than Jimmy Carter.

When the Soviets were in Afghganistan they deployed some 154,000 troops of whom around 104,000 were combat troops. Take a look at the combined numbers for US-OEF & ISAF and you will be round about 100,000 of which you will be lucky if one third of them are combat troops.

Mullah Omar has been talking about "stalemate" in Helmand for two years now. Back in the old Soviet occupation days when the Mujahideen were fighting the Russians there was never any such talk.

As soon as McChrystal had made his request for additional troops Obama should have stated loud and clear that they would be deployed. Why??:

1. Send a clear signal to the Afghan people that the international community is not going to run away, or turn our backs on you.

2. Send a clear signal to the Taleban and to Al-Qaeda, that things are only going to continue to get worse for you if you continue to fight and obstruct the reconstruction of Afghanistan.

3. Send a clear signal to the Government of Pakistan that the Taleban and foreigners that they are fighting in the FATA and NWFP will not be able to shift across the borderwith impunity.

It is only in the MSM of the west that you get this defeatist view, every single member of the UK armed forces that I have talked to is of the opinion that the military facet of the reconstruction of Afghanistan is "do-able" and that the Taleban can be defeated. They remark on the complete and utter lack of reporting of the positive changes that have been brought about to date that lends itself to the general impression amongst the public in the UK that nothing has been achieved, when in actual fact massive improvements have been made.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:24 AM

See, T-Bird, this is where you obviously have some wirin' problems... 58% of the Afgan people safer??? Why not 59% 'er 99% 'er 110%??? I mean, when people throw out arbitrary statistics like that it's almost like watching the dumb toothpaste commercials where Suzie Creamcheeze says that since she's been brushin' with ToothBrite that she has had 58% fewer cavaties... I mean, you are an otherwise somewhat intellegent person so you must realize that when you start you defensive rebuttal with such a bogus and arbitrary claim that you have seriously hurt your arguments...

Here's my beef with cowboy foriegn policy... It doesn't work... It can't ever work because it is flawed... Okay, if it's a conventional war with one side (country) amassing its armies aginst another then maybe... But when you have a few bad apples in an area killing all the apples ain't real smart... Like who is to know the bad apples from the good??? Think Vietnam here...

No, a much smarter way to deal with bad apples is to get in the apple sack and remove them one by one...

(Well, Boberdz... How do you do that???)

First of all you maintain diplomatic relations with the sack with the bad apples... You don't do anything that will kill off the good apples, like sanctions... That's a good first start... Then you get some of the good apples, since they look very much like the bad ones, to work for you (spies, if you will) and tell you who are the bad apples... Then you arrest or surgically removed the bad ones... You know, like police do in civil societies...

But to just blow the crap outta the entire sack of apples, while being very entertaining to folks with IQ's on the southside of a hunnert is plain stupid... That is what George Bush did in both Afganistan and Iraq and it was and still is stupid...

And I understand the politics that Obama is dealing with here but I expected him to not fall into the same trap as your heros, Bush, Cheney, Wolfy, Pearle, Rice, and Rumsey... But, alas, the politics have overwhelmed Obama and looks as if he's takin' what I consider to be the politically expedient way out... You know, hearing a burgular in downstairs and called the police asking them to just blow the entire house up...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 12:18 PM

An imperial order always has its enthusiastic proponents, its dupes, and its apologists. I bet Heinz Guderian was in favor of occupying Poland, France, and Russia too. From his angle, it looked like an excellent idea and one that was fully justified. The Poles, French, and Russians didn't see it that way, though, and they resisted until the invaders were forced to leave. So will the Afghans.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 12:43 PM

Upon a meeting with the Pakistani PM, Gordon Brown admitted about 3/4 of terror plots here have stemmed from Pakistan NOT Afghanistan - as I've suggested in verse, what would make the world safer is regulating immigration/emigration far more strongly, the world over.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:53 PM

Posh tunes ?

So far I have heard its really the Pakis, the Suadis, the Taliban, the Al Qeada, the Pashtun, tribal warlords --- who are the enemy to be defeated.


So far I have heard that winning is giving the moderate Afghans control of the country while modifying the extremeists who live there into silence or peaceful compliance.

How is that done with 100,000 troops?

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:54 PM

"I bet Heinz Guderian was in favor of occupying Poland, France, and Russia too." Not according to his autobiography, your comment doesn't surprise me you only think of people in terms of stereotypes.

The arbitrary statistics Bobert? Simply the well published official demographics of Afghanistan provide those Bobert - roughly 42% of the population are Pashtun the only ethnic group from which the Taleban draw support from, leaving the other minority groups collectively making up 58% of the population. Afghanistan's population is some 32 million people only around 4% of them support the Taliban mainly from the Haqqani and Ghilzai Pashtun tribes. The current President one Hamid Karzai is also Pashtun from the Durrani tribe, they have been enemies of the Ghalzai for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 06:11 PM

"who are the enemy to be defeated" In Afghanistan? The Taleban they are the only ones who are fighting, Al-Qaeda pretty much became irrelevant as far as Afghanistan was concerned the minute they ducked over the border into Pakistan's FATA and NWFP.

It is not done with 100,000 troops in a country of 32 million that would be ridiculous. But start discounting commonly held "Myths"

- The US invaded Afghanistan (They didn't)
- The Foreign troops will suffer the same fate as the Soviets (They won't, the whole country was up in arms against the Soviets, in Afghanistan at the moment it is only the Taleban and they represent a tiny proportion of the population - First rule of a successful Guerrilla Movement?? You must have the people on your side, and that the Taleban do not have)
- All Afghan civilians are killed by NATO/US troops (Not true two out of every three Afghan civilians killed are killed by the Taleban)

How do 100,000 troops do the job?? McChrystal asked for the troops so they "belong" to the NATO-ISAF Mission NOT US-Operation Enduring Freedom Mission. The extra troops accelerate the scale of training for the Afghan Security Forces. ANA current strength is 94,000 they take part in 90% of all ISAF Operations and take the lead role in 62% of those operations (Source NATO-ISAF web-site) So within about 12 months you will have over a quarter of a million men available. It is winter now so that means if the Taleban are going to do anything they only have spring & summer of 2010 to do it in, while they cannot fight in winter both NATO-ISAF and US-OEF Troops can.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 06:23 PM

Sorry,My finger slipped !!

How much has this war cost ? Surely the money wasted could have been better spent. For example, helping the starving nations of this world.