BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?

Subject: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:11 AM

I will use this thread to post things that might be considered improper if the Republicans did it, but of course are acceptable when done in support of Democratic candidates...


HOMELESS 'DRIVEN' TO VOTE OBAMA
By JEANE MacINTOSH
Posted: 9:34 pm
October 6, 2008

CLEVELAND - Volunteers supporting Barack Obama picked up hundreds of people at homeless shelters, soup kitchens and drug-rehab centers and drove them to a polling place yesterday on the last day that Ohioans could register and vote on the same day, almost no questions asked.

The huge effort by a pro-Obama group, Vote Today Ohio, takes advantage of a quirk in the state's elections laws that allows people to register and cast ballots at the same time without having to prove residency.

Republicans have argued that the window could lead to widespread voter fraud because officials wouldn't have an opportunity to verify registration information before ballots were cast.

Among the volunteers were Yori Stadlin and Vivian Lehrer of the Upper West Side, who got married last week and decided to spend their honeymoon shepherding voters to the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections.

Early today, Stadlin's van picked up William Woods, 59, at the soup kitchen of the Bishop Cosgrove Center.

"I never voted before," Woods said, because of a felony conviction that previously barred him from the polls. "Without this service, I would have had no way to get here."

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:18 AM

Hell, if that was the worst thing Republicans did to try to get elected, I would be elated.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:25 AM

And if that was the worst that the Democrats diod, I would be astonished!

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:26 AM

Bruce, it would be such a refreshing day when you posted something positive here at Mudcat. I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Bee
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

I'm trying to see why this is 'wrong', bb. Here it is common to call any party for transportation, sometimes they will call you, if you have no way to get to the polls. Then you vote for whoever you want to.

And I would think homeless people especially deserve to be able to exercise their right to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:33 AM

Oh, PLEASE do!

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:38 AM

The huge effort by a pro-Obama group, Vote Today Ohio, takes advantage of a quirk in the state's elections laws that


**************************************************************allows people to register and cast ballots at the same time without having to prove residency.************************************************

Republicans have argued that the window could lead to widespread voter fraud because officials wouldn't have an opportunity to verify registration information before ballots were cast.

...
"I never voted before," Woods said,

*******************************************************because of a felony conviction that previously barred him ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

from the polls. "Without this service, I would have had no way to get here."

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: TIA
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:19 AM

This is just stupid.
Seems to me what we have here is a perfectly legal and sensibel method of combatting the Republican Tricks detailed in this link.

Not the much talked about machine quirks, but challenges at the polls (by out of state hacks bussed in to intimidate), caging lists, purges of the rolls, understaffed and under-equipped polling places, phony letters warning of police at the polls checking warrants and parking tickets, on and on and on.

And you've got a beef with this?

You don't give a damn about democracy - you're just shitting your pants 'cause you see that you're about to lose.

About damn time.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:30 AM

I'm with Bee here. Registering and/or voting drives are completely legal and should be.

And it seems to me that homeless people have perhaps a greater stake in what direction a country goes than most of us. (In the coming months or even years it appears that there will be more homeless than in generations- would you have them not be able to vote? Would YOU like to be turned away? I wouldn't.)

Here in Alaska a local homeless shelter's address is a valid address. However, each registration follows the same procedure: The form specifies length of residency in the state, (although in a presidential election any American can vote for the top spots, just not in local elections or issues) as well as other attested statements, including an acknowledgment that your signature can be used against you.

In the same manner, if one is NOT on the precinct registeer one wishes to vote in, one votes a "questioned" or "provisional" ballot which is later checked against voter rolls. In other words, simply voting does not mean that your vote will be counted as valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:32 AM

Sorry, TIA.

I have commented that illegal actions by ANYONE are to be criticised. As long as the actions of EITHER side are given a free pass, it will be "acceptable" to falsify the results to whatever that side wants.

I see a sufficient number of posts here giving the sins of the Republicans: Do you imply that the Democrats should NOT be held to the same standards you want to impose on the Republicans???


I have a beef with ANY acts that lead to an election where the votes reported do not reflect the valid votes AND ONLY THE VALID VOTES cast in that election.


Losing 38% of the Green Vote, and 40% of the Republican vote ( DC, 2006) or reporting 9000 votes cast when only 5000 voters voted ( DC, 2008 Primary) does not give me any confidence that the election results will reflect other than the desires of the party in charge of that specific voting district- WHATEVER party that is.

I will NOT give the Democrats a free reign to falsify votes just becouse some here would like to see specific results.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:34 AM

"In the same manner, if one is NOT on the precinct registeer one wishes to vote in, one votes a "questioned" or "provisional" ballot which is later checked against voter rolls. In other words, simply voting does not mean that your vote will be counted as valid. "


And when this is the case I have no protest. But it is incorrect to assume that all cases are such: It appears that the vote is counted and NOT verified as to residence or voting status.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:51 AM

The provision of aid to people to get to register (or to vote) is in no way wrong, for either party. It is standard get-out-the-vote procedure.

Now, every State has its qualifications for registry and voting. If the people subject to this operation honestly meet those qualifications, all is well.

If that State requires a fixed place of abode (just for instance), and the individual doesn't have it, (s)he should be turned down. If (s)he falsifies that information, that is indeed wrong, and what's more, criminal. And other qualifications for the voting franchise follow the same logic. BeardedBruce implies and seems to assume that there would be fraud, but doesn't say so outright, probably because he would not be able to establish that. In fact, both parties have been guilty of fraud in many states, and neither party has a patent on it. Whoever commits fraud, it should be stepped on.

Among other things, BB seems to complain about organized use of the quirk in Ohio's laws which result in the possibility of registering and voting on the same day. As a matter of fact, I also think that is a bad feature of law. BUT, that is in fact the law of the State of Ohio, and people are entitled to take advantage of it. I don't know whether Ohio's laws make such simultaneous registry/voting result in a provisional, checkable-later ballot, as in some other states. If it is not, it is my opinion that it should be a provisional ballot if the quirk is allowed to stand. But those questions are up to the legislature of the State of Ohio.

Vote Today Ohio and the voters involved have every right to utilize the law as it exists. If you don't like the law (and you're an Ohio citizen) work to change it.

In any case, it's not up to non-Ohio Mudcatters to deal with.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: TIA
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:51 AM

Okay, fair enough. But I see nowhere in your article an allegation of anything illegal, fraudulent or sneaky. So, why do you (or the author?) fear the votes of the homeless and other downtrodden? Does it really have nothing at all to do with the way they might vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM

Dave,

I agree with all of your points.

" Whoever commits fraud, it should be stepped on." is the important one.

I have noted a number of posts in the past criticising the Republicans for such "dirty" tactics as LEGALLY calling into question some registrations that had errors, or purging the rolls ( as specified by state law) of voters who diod not meet the registration requirements. I did not note any support of those tactics, although they were in accordance with the laws of that state. So, I see no reason not to note the actions, even if legal, of Democrats, who appear to be acting in a manner that would lead to improper voting.

As I stated: " things that might be considered improper if the Republicans did it, but of course are acceptable when done in support of Democratic candidates..."


Neither side is acting illegally, but it is "dirty" when the other side does it, and ok when in support of our rightous party.




"and the voters involved have every right to utilize the law as it exists. If you don't like the law (and you're an Ohio citizen) work to change it."

Except for Republicans seems to be the unspoken part...

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Alice
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:07 AM

Giving poor people a chance to use their right to vote. You think that's wrong? You are living in backwards land. If an American voter doesn't have transportation and volunteers from any party give a ride to registration and voting, that is exactly what should be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:16 AM

Geeziz........Learn some history ..........Ohio was involved in voting problems in the past two Presidential elections (Admin in Ohio was Republican) and the changes to bring about mass mailings for absentee ballots and vote today rules were Republican started and passed with bipartisan support. Although the current governor is a Democrat, the voting changes including additional ones in equipment (still undergoing revisions) were started and agreed to by the Republicans. Much of the feeling here is that the state doesn't need to look so bad in this election and everyone will be offered the easiest setup in the country to vote so no one is left out (as was the case before).

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Bee
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:21 AM

Beardedbruce, some of us with no horse in your race have asked you why this activity is wrong, and I haven't seen your response to that. You seem to think some of these voters might not be eligible, but surely there are methods of sorting that out. The alternative seems to be not giving these legitimate voters a chance to vote. And sorry, that just sounds like elitist nit-picking that would rather ignore these voters' rights in order to score vague 'points' against the opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:21 AM

TIA,


"Okay, fair enough. But I see nowhere in your article an allegation of anything illegal, fraudulent or sneaky. So, why do you (or the author?) fear the votes of the homeless and other downtrodden? Does it really have nothing at all to do with the way they might vote? "

What I fear is the influence on some to vote according to the desire ( given the human desire to please those who are doing something for us) of the ones providing the service, and the possible voting of those not permitted to vote under other circumstances ( felonies, residency, etc.)

And as I said, if the Republicans were to do this, would it be just as satifactory?


And the protests here about Republicans who legally challanged registrations with errors, or legally purged the rolls of voters? Does it really have nothing to do with the what THOSE voters might vote?????

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: TIA
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:25 AM

"And as I said, if the Republicans were to do this, would it be just as satifactory?"

Absolutely! I would love to see Republicans rounding up the downtrodden and taking them to the polls. If you spot any of this, please take pictures, and send them to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:26 AM

"You seem to think some of these voters might not be eligible, but surely there are methods of sorting that out."


When the methods to sort that out ( ie, challanging the rolls, and purging ( according to the law) those who were dead, there was a vast outcry about how the Republicans were keeping people from voting.


IF those methods are in place here ( not acording to the comments in the article) THEN it would be fine and desireable. If they are not, it is as much "dirty" politics as asking that those who do not qualify to vote should be prevented from voting, wouldn't you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:26 AM

If the "this" you're talking about is providing transportation, your question is meaningless. Do you honestly think any Republican would get his BMW dirty taking homeless people to a voter registration center? Think of the consequences! He'd then have to take his car to a detail shop for a complete cleaning. And you know who works in those places, don't you? Mexicans!

If the "this" you're talking about is the Ohio law allowing same day registration and voting, that's an Ohio issue, not a Democrat/Republican issue. I assume the law was passed by that state's legislature. If it's an unfair law, they need to fix it. I don't live in Ohio.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:11 AM

BB said:

What I fear is the influence on some to vote according to the desire ( given the human desire to please those who are doing something for us) of the ones providing the service, and the possible voting of those not permitted to vote under other circumstances ( felonies, residency, etc.)

Exactly! That is of course the purpose of assistance given to people in get-out-the-vote drives. You don't tell them how to vote, and of course they know that you'll not know how they voted, but you establish you and your organization as their friend. Some good number of them will vote "right".   And even without that hoped-for advantage, the reason that Vote Today Ohio is working with this population is that they know the statistics of that population are for a higher than average Democratic vote.

That is why Democratic forces are plumping for a big vote, and why Republican forces (except in heavily Republican areas) are putting every roadblock possible in the way of a big turnout.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:08 PM

Hooray for early voting!

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:25 PM

Seems to me rounding folks up to vote is a lot preferable to some of the tricks used to PREVENT people from voting, in general.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:39 PM

BTW, it's not possible to "get me back" for something I say about Republicans by attacking Democrats. I'm not a Democrat.


LOLOL


:rolleyes

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:52 PM

All the Democrats and Republicans are trapped in their own mental boxes as far as I'm concerned. Those 2 parties are the main thing that's wrong with the American political situation. I look forward to the day when they both vanish into the dustbin of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM

Last I heard, no Dems were going into states, sending mail to known foreclosures, getting that mail back as undeliverable due to the addressee having moved due to the foreclosure, then using that returned mail as proof the person should be purged from the voter rolls, thus ensuring they will not be able to vote on election day, and oh by the way, most of these were in neighbourhoods known to vote for Dems, so of course that's why the GOP members tried that tactic.

Here's what some are doing to ensure voter's rights: Click Here for links mentioned below.

Republican Dirty Tricks, Secret Purges Aimed at Suppressing Votes
        

by James Parks, Oct 6, 2008
        
        

In four weeks, millions of voters will go to the polls to choose our next president, Congress and state and local officials. But even if you are eligible to vote, you could be denied a ballot, illegally purged from the voting rolls or face challenges to your voting status.

To ensure that every eligible voter can vote and have their vote counted, union members and activists are working through the AFL-CIO My Vote, My Right voter protection project to ensure the ballot process is run fairly. (A new website now offers help to voters who have questions about voting, including where to register. The National Campaign for Fair Elections launched www.866ourvote.org and spotlighted a toll-free voting rights hotline, 1-866-OUR-VOTE, operated by a nonpartisan coalition of groups, including the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights and the AFL-CIO. Also check out the Voter Bill of Rights for Michigan, Missouri, Ohio and Pennsylvania by clicking the state name.)   

A new report released by the nonpartisan Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law finds that states are secretly purging roles with no supervision or national standards. As a result, the cleaning up of voter rolls is not as precise as it should be and eligible voters are often wrongly removed. (See video.)

The report calls the nationwide purging process "chaotic," "shrouded in secrecy," "riddled with inaccuracies," "prone to error" and "vulnerable to manipulation."

The report uncovers widespread errors in voter purges, including the purges of 700 voters in Muscogee County, Ga., 10,000 voters in Mississippi and 7,000 in Louisiana. Read or download the report, Voter Purges, here.

It cites Muscogee County, where a county official removed 700 people from voter rolls allegedly for criminal convictions. But many of the people who received letters informing them of the purge had never even received a parking ticket. In Mississippi, a local election official recently discovered that another official had wrongly purged 10,000 voters "from her home computer."

In another report, the public interest group USPIRG shows 19 states are ignoring federal law, which prohibits voter purges 90 days before a federal election. Those states include the key battleground states of Colorado, Ohio and Nevada. To learn more and to read the report, click here.

Republicans are using various techniques to try and suppress the vote. A new website, stealbackyourvote.org, recently learned about "caging" plan for parts of Florida. Caging is a process in which letters are sent to registered voters and when the letter is returned, the voter's name is taken off the rolls.

The plan was to send letters to voters in majority black districts, including soldiers at an army base in the black community in Jacksonville. Of course, many of the soldiers might not be on base anymore, points out Steal Back Your Vote founder Greg Palast. He has teamed up with Robert Kennedy Jr. to put together a comic book guide for voters to take your vote back. Check out their video here, and download the comic book voters' guide here.         

In Ohio, the AFL-CIO and SEIU District 1199 filed briefs in a successful effort to stop Republicans from suppressing student voting. Republicans in the Buckeye State challenged Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner's ruling that a state law allows some early voters to register and vote on the same day. A recently enacted state law allows residents, for the first time in a general presidential election, to vote early by absentee ballot without providing a justification. But with a huge voter registration effort to get college students, a group that traditionally votes for Democrats, the Republicans sought to nullify the law. The state Supreme Court and the federal courts upheld Brunner's interpretation of the law.

In New Mexico, the AFL-CIO My Vote My Rights program has teamed with the Lawyers Coordinating Committee to convince the secretary of state to distribute a poster that lists the types of IDs that are acceptable and is placed in polling places. Voters can advocate for themselves if asked for more than the IDs mandated by law. The AFL-CIO also was instrumental in bringing to the attention of state attorneys general that voters cannot be removed from the rolls for being on a foreclosure list. As a result of our efforts, Maryland Attorney General Douglas Gansler sent a letter to local and state election officials to ensure that voters who have lost homes to foreclosure know they have not lost their right to vote. Lots more voter protection news:

    * Even though they have no concrete evidence of intentional wrongdoing, the Republican National Committee (RNC) has launched an attack against the activist group ACORN, which has helped register millions of poor voters and voters of color. In a series of press conference calls last week, the RNC labeled ACORN as a "quasi-criminal" organization. When pressed to explain what exactly ACORN had done, RNC only could cite cases in which ACORN registrars had submitted fake registrations. Mike Slater, executive director of Project Vote, which helps ACORN with its voter registration drives, says it's the Republicans who are causing confusion and misleading voters. He says in most cases, ACORN has pointed out registration problems to local election officials.

The RNC also accused ACORN of using felons who had completed their sentences to register voters in Wisconsin. But again, when pressed during a conference call in which AFL-CIO Now participated, RNC Chief Counsel Sean Cairncross and Communications Director Danny Diaz admitted it was not against state law for felons to register voters and that there was no evidence of any misconduct or criminal activity by the ACORN workers.

    * Daily Kos's Mcjoan reports that Montana Republicans are trying to shore up their lagging gubernatorial campaign by challenging the eligibility of 6,000 registered Montana voters in seven counties historically considered Democratic. More than half of the people challenged statewide live, or previously lived, in Missoula County. Montanans who are registered to vote in the seven counties who filled out a change-of-address card with the U.S. Postal Service in the past 18 months likely will need to verify their correct place of residence before the Nov. 4 election. More than 36,000 new voters have registered in Montana, mainly through due to Democratic efforts, election officials say.
    * Andrew Appel reports that a New Jersey state judge has stopped the scheduled release of a report on the security and accuracy of the Sequoia AVC Advantage voting machine used in the state. Appel blogs on Freedom to Tinker, which is hosted by the Princeton Center for Information Technology Policy. He is one of a team of experts the court designated to report on the voting machines. The report is part of a lawsuit by filed by the Rutgers Constitutional Litigation Clinic. The Sequoia model used in the state cannot be audited and do not produce a voter verified paper ballot trail, so there is no way to know whether the machine is actually counting votes as cast,. Appel says.
    * Markos at Daily Kos notes that three weeks after Florida began enforcing a controversial law to require tougher ID matches for would-be voters, registration applications from more than 5,000 Floridians have been held up, at least temporarily. In many cases, officials said, the errors were as simple as someone writing down the wrong number, using a nickname or misspelling his or her name. As Kos points out it's more likely that the government has misspelled the name in their own databases.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:57 PM

BB, to give a very brief answer to your original question...

NOTHING Republicans do ever pleases Democrats.

NOTHING Democrats do ever pleases Republicans.

They were both invented to divide and conquer your hapless public on behalf of the large financial powers that run your corrupt political $ySStem.

And the rest of the world wishes they would both just shut up and go away forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:02 PM

Bruce - Yesterday on NPR there was a story about { conservitive preacher } Jerry Falwells University. They plan to cancel classes on election day and bus all the students to the polls. They have also applied a lot of pressure during public meetings to make sure all of the students are registered to vote in that state regardless of what state they live in. The vast majority of students are expected to vote for McCain. Is that a nasty trick - or just good politics?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:03 PM

You sound like a stuck record, LH.

A lot more people, esp. young people like my youngest daughter, are independent owing their allegiance to no specific party. Even though I've been a Dem all of my life, there were a couple of times I actually, wait are you ready for this? I actually voted for a member of the Republican party! Ohmygawd, I wasn't even smote/smited(?) with lightening or anything! Of course, that was before the GOP allowed the far wrong to take over their party.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:04 PM

"The Sequoia model used in the state cannot be audited and do not produce a voter verified paper ballot trail, so there is no way to know whether the machine is actually counting votes as cast,. Appel says."

Sort of like the one that MD has- when it was brought up to the state legislature, they decided it was NOT required to have any audit capability.... BTW, that was a Democratic Legislature and Gov., defeating a Republican initiative to require traceability/paper logs.

You bring up groups looking only at Democratic-majority districts- what are they afraid of, that they do not look statewide????

ANY attempt to illegally falsify the vote, or prevent legal voters from voting, is WRONG.

I have stated this before, and will again, BUT I do not see this as a problem that ONLY occurs against Democrats, as is presented here.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:07 PM

"And as I said, if the Republicans were to do this, would it be just as satifactory?"

Fascinating to see you complain about fairness on an issue where there IS no discrimination! Any party is welcome to help their voters get to the polls. Hell, *I* volunteered to drive old ladies to the polls in 1976!...and I'm sure the GOP did the same.

I guess I will never understand this thing you have about assuming that Democrats get special dispensation to be naughty. This is about the 10th time you have suggested it. Perhaps it is that some of the examples involved some pretty egregious behavior.

For the record: I do not approve of ANYONE breaking the law or cheating or engaging in seriously dubious practices in politics.
   But I DO think I see more instances of such behavior on behalf of Republicans... (yes, I know no one ever quite 'proved' what happened in Florida in 2000....but.....)

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:28 PM

One thing that should unite people across party lines is a determination to make sure that as many people as possible are able to cast their vote, regardless of ho they choose use that vote.

Just because someone gives you a lift to the polling station, you don't have to vote the way they might prefer.

As for the business of people being barred from voting because have have a conviction, that sounds highly undemocratic. Has it ever been tested in the courts? I'm pretty sure that it would be ruled as illegal over here, or anywhere in the European Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

I just realized that I did not answer BB's thread subject question.

He said, if the Republicans picked up hundreds of people at homeless shelters, soup kitchens and drug-rehab centers and drove them to a polling place yesterday on the last day that Ohioans could register and vote on the same day, almost no questions asked, would I be happy?

As a matter of fact, I'd be quite satisfied to see them do just that. Aside from it being their right to do those things, the demographics of the population centers involved would probably tip Democratic. Which, of course, is why you can bet your bottom dollar that the Republicans won't do it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM

Fine. The Republicans will go to banks and lawyer's offices and bring them.... Or go to farms out in the MidWest, and provide transportation to the polls.


As long as those voting are legally allowed to vote, fine- but it seems like the verification off that legality is overlooked.



So, since getting out the vote is so much better than making sure that the voter is legal, ( better to have illegal voters than make it too hard for anyone to vote)I presume that most here approve of 9000 votes reported in a precinct where 5000 voters voted. After all, the Democrats won, so it must be perfectly ok...

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM

The partisan dialogue in America is the longest running stuck record in history, Kat.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: TIA
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM

Yup, that's what I said. I'd love to see that.
(TIA - registered Republican until 2005, now registered independant).

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:00 PM

Bruce - Yesterday on NPR there was a story about { conservitive preacher } Jerry Falwells University. They plan to cancel classes on election day and bus all the students to the polls. They have also applied a lot of pressure during public meetings to make sure all of the students are registered to vote in that state regardless of what state they live in. The vast majority of students are expected to vote for McCain. Is that a nasty trick - or just good politics?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:07 PM

The activity was and is legal, thanks to recently-passed Ohio law.

If you don't like the law, which allows a person to vote immediately upon registration, I'm sure you're not alone. Nevertheless, until such time as this arguably ill-advised legislation might be repealed, you have no legal recourse. Grin and bear it.

The new law, while it might well be ill-advised, was obviously passed in response to Republican shenanigans during the last Presidential eleciton, when they went to great lengths to deny the vote to citizens in certain targeted less-affluent precincts.

I find it quite telling that, in recent years, the usual Republican strategy in regard to admission to the polls has been to allow as few people as possible to vote, while the Democrats invite participation by as many new voters as possible. What does that indicate?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:08 PM

It is legal- so by the standards determined here it is ok.


I would want to check to be sure they were NOT voting in another state, as well. That is the purpose of registration, to insure the voter is voting in one and ONLY one place.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Alice
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:27 PM

If they had no transportation and needed help getting to the polls locally, it is very unlikely that they would be traveling to also vote in another state!

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM

depends on where the buses took them. And this was advamce voting- Will there be another bus on election day, so they can vote again?After all, without proof of residence( even a shelter address would determine the specific poll they should vote at), how can we be sure they are not voting somewhere else on election day?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: irishenglish
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:47 PM

Contact the bus companies in big Ohio cities. Find out if they are going to Indiana or Kentucky. Find out if theres been a spike in registration in towns along Ohio border states. If they were going to vote again, there would be no need for them to travel far into any other states, they could just cross the state line and vote right?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:47 PM

bb.........Do you live in Ohio? If so, you had to be aware of all the voting problems in the past 10 years. There has been bi-partisan support to change many things that had been wrong in the past and also to look a bit forward as well. Several of the measures were started by Republican incumbents who had been under the gun for problems in 2000 and 2004 (and some otther non-pres years too).

Problems with voting machinery is still being modified in the hope that neither the chad nor Diebold fiascos we had here would be repeated. Additionally many voters were unable to vote, even when the polling hours were extended and there were problems in the counting delays on absentee ballots.

Coupled with an outmoded registration system all of this made Ohio about dead last in the country when it came to right to vote issues and being sure the vote tallies and procedures were legal. This is still being challenged and worked through and many on BOTH sides hope it will all be worth it. An issue in today's paper (Columbus Dispatch) points up potential "red flag" problems with registrations, most of which are typo problems and not real red flags. But they are working to fix this and assure that real flags are properly challenged.

bb......Others have pointed out the additional fallacies in your premise but don't blame this on either party in Ohio. Both are sick of the national spotlight.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:52 PM

No, I vote in MD, where the vote is determined by the Democratic election boards in the 4 largest ( population) counties. When there was an attempt to require a tracable log to the electronic voting machines here, the state legislature and Dem. gov. stopped it. But don't worry: Obama has already got those electorial votes, before the popular vote is even cast.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:11 PM

I live in a state where the common wisdom says McCain is a shoo-in, and where neither candidate is running ads or campaigning at all ~ "before the popular vote is even cast," just like in Maryland. This has nothing to do with corruption or cheating, just probablilities that "the experts" agree are overwhelming.

I'll vote for Obamam anyway, and will be in the majority in my majority-black hometown, but much of the largely-rural statewide vote is pretty much guaranteed to go to any Republican candidate.

I haven't been an anti-Electoral-College activist in the past, and I've always been interested in how Presidential elections shake down, under the arcane old set of rules, but I've come around to the position that it's time to abolish that obsolete institution. This country is no longer the loose federation of independent and unique states that it was in the late 1700s. Our population is highly mobile and increasingly homogenized, and a nationwide popular vote would be a fairer and more representative way to elect a Preident than the way we're doing it now.

Under a revised system that counted the national popular vote, neither Bruce's Republican vote in Maryland nor my Democratic vote in Louisiana would be futile and wasted the way they are under the present system.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM

I replied to BB's query, whether picking up people from homeless shelters and the like, as Vote Today Ohio did, would be satisfactory, and I said fine, not only did they have the right but it would be beneficial for Democrats (whoever picked up and registered voters from the homeless shelters, etc.).

BB said: Fine. The Republicans will go to banks and lawyer's offices and bring them...

Even though you missed my point, BB, I'm certainly okay with your offering rides and registration services to bankers and lawyers, too. There's nothing underhanded, unethical, or illegal about that, any more than there is about Vote Today Ohio doing so for the disadvantaged.

But of course most of those folks are probably able to get themselves in to the registration or voting sites by themselves, so it would not be the great service to them that Vote Today Ohio's is for the disadvantaged, and so the friendliness or gratitude factor would be less for the Republican cause in servicing that population. But go ahead.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:43 PM

BB - I've gotta say absolutely yes - I'd love it if republicans did this.

Anything that gets people voting or helps them to vote is positive and healthy, be they bankers homeless or whatever.

Once people are in the booth they make their own decisions.

This kind of thing justifies the system and lets the elected leader say "the people chose me - I truly have a mandate".

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:47 PM

You keep bringing up...the primary in Washington D.C. which was an incorrect reporting because of a faulty machine. It was quickly corrected...so you can put that puppy to rest, or whatever...D.C. BOEE spokesman Dan Murphy says the problems were caused by a cartridge from an optical voting machine.

"There was an erroneous reading from precinct 141," Murphy says.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:06 PM

All this hoo-hah, over all these months, over a corrected error in a single precinct?!?!?

You almost had me believing that there was a real problem there in DC,Bruce...