BS: What did Jesus look like?

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:08 PM

McGrath, the only time I have run into brown olives rather than the green or black ones I was familiar with was a few years ago when an Italian cooked a 'traditional' Italian dinner for a number of us.

In the middle of the table was a dish of smallish brown olives. They were not as 'meaty' as the black and green kinds, rather like the difference between commercially grown versus roadside fruits. Frankly they didn't look - or for that matter, taste - as good as those I'm used to but Ric gave me the name of the kind (I seem to remember they were regional) and assured me that they were indeed olives.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:16 PM

Growing up in Northern Israel (with the very best olives in the world bar none!), I was quite shocked by the small, bland California olives we had at grandmother's house. My brother was so disgusted with them that he refused to admit they were olives.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:30 PM

Jesus was black. Hair like wool, feet like burnt brass. we all know that when something is burnt it's BLACK right?
Jesus has black feet Daniel 7
Unless there's a different meaning for BURNT? I rest my case

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:03 AM

What did Jesus look like?

He looked like Robert Powell of course...

*G*

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:21 AM

What Did The Ancient Israelites Look Like?

Guest has been doing some serious research:

Revelation:14-15
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;

What type of people have feet and skin of burnt brass? The same type of people whose origins are from the continient that is known today as Africa.


Make of it what you will. Dunno how Daniel 7 comes into it.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:25 AM

When something is burnt it isn't always black. The ash left in my fireplace is usualy a sort of pale grey. Maybe he just looked ill:-)

Besides we all know he was blond haired and blue eyed. We have seen the pictures and we know the camera doesn't lie...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:31 AM

Dave, for a minute I thought you were serious about your second sentence, since your smile icon looks like a "D".

But then I realized they didn't have any cameras way back then.

I wish they did. Oh well, there's always time travel.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:26 PM

How dark is "dark"? My mother is very dark for a white woman ("olive" skin, black hair) but not dark in the grand scheme of dark. She's darker than my Latina/white/African-American friend, though, who is also olive-dark but not DARK. Golden? Even I look pretty dark when you park me next to my Scandinavian sister-in-law. Dark seems to be highly relative.

I went to college with a darker-than-some Jewish kid who had the tightly-curled hair mentioned above--we always sort of figured Jesus probably looked a lot like that. He was actually known on campus as the Kid Who Looked Like Jesus. No kidding.


FYI most Native Americans, even if they have very little white ancestry, are also considerably less red when they're not in the sun all the time. Actually, they look just like my mom (who is not Native American, at least that we can find. Go figure).

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:05 PM

I've done 6 paintings of Jesus. The next one will bear a striking resemblence to the president of Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:27 PM

Jesus obviously looked like John Karr. How long are you going to waste your time arguing this stupid stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:52 PM

I picture Jesus as being a lot like Garry Shandling, only younger.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Kaleea
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM

Some years ago, I was choir director at a church which had some members who were, shall we say, somewhat closed minded. about this subject. Therefore, I chose to sing the following song for the Christmas Eve & Sunday morning on Christmas day services. (The open-minded minister loved it!)


Some Children See Him
By Alfred Burt

Some children see Him lily white
the infant Jesus born this night
Some children see Him lily white
with tresses soft and fair

Some children see Him bronzed and brown
the Lord of heav'n to earth come down
Some children see Him bronzed and brown
with dark and heavy hair (with dark and heavy hair!)

Some children see Him almond-eyed
This Saviour whom we kneel beside
Some children see Him almond-eyed
With skin of yellow hue!

Some children see Him dark as they
Sweet Mary's Son to whom we pray
Some children see Him dark as they
And, ah! they love Him so!

The children in each different place
Will see the Baby Jesus' face
Like theirs but bright with heav'nly grace
And filled with holy light!

O lay aside each earthly thing
and with thy heart as offering
Come worship now the infant King
'tis love that's born tonight!

'tis love that's born tonight!

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Thomas Didymus
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:01 PM

He looked much very like Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Richard Brandenburg
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:47 AM

Interesting thread, all, but count me in with the few who feel that it's of no importance at all what Jesus looked like. And it seems to me that Racialism especially is antithetical to that which is represented by Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:18 AM

There is plenty of documetary evidence Jesus existed. The Romans felt he was a political agitator, the pharasies though he was blaspheming, as for his appearance - he was from that region. He would look like the Arabic stock we see now. Isreal has had the influx of European migrants so they are more ethnically mixed but something like them too.

Length of hair? Dunno - fashions change - maybe he would not look like his contempories - in order to stand out. Clothes - simple, cheap and practical, coarse weave cloth.

But how would a Devout Atheist like me know?

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Grab
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:48 AM

"And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;"

The phrase is "as if they burned in a furnace". Not "as if they *had been* burned in a furnace". Present tense, not past tense.

It makes a difference. If you put something into a furnace, it's only black afterwards (and then only if it burns). When it's in the furnace, it glows yellow due to the extreme heat. In other words, the colour of fine, polished brass. Gold could have been used as an analogy, but gold doesn't polish up well and doesn't reflect light, whereas brass takes a good shiny surface and so will reflect light back at you.

And the "wool" line is for whiteness, not for wooliness.

Sometimes I wonder whether some people really read, or whether they just pick out every other word... ho hum. Better luck next time, Guest.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Mooh
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:56 PM

"If Jesus comes back and this time he's black, what are you gonna do?
If you don't listen to his rap, how's he gonna talk to you?
Everything's gonna be different, when this old world is through
If Jesus comes back and this time he's black, what are you gonna do?"

I forget who wrote this without finding my songbook, but I've been playing this song for years. What will he look like? Will we recognize him? If he's here now (and I could argue that he is) we surely don't recognize him. I would really like to know what he physically looked like, but I'm more interested in how he looks now, or how he will look.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 05:14 PM

If Jesus were to appear today, looking as he looked 2,000 years ago, they probably wouldn't let him on an airplane. Also, if he were to appear today saying the same things he did 2,000 years ago (only in modern language), he'd probably be dismissed by a lot of people (including many Christians) as "just another one of those whiny, bleeding-heart liberals."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:45 PM

May I remind Grab and Guest if they {either or both} need such reminding that-particularly in the United States, "black" as a referent for a race includes people who are very very dark skinned through very very light skinned. There certainly are a significant number of people in this racial grouping who look like Semetic Middle Eastern people.

But even if you said that Jesus probably looked like a Middle Eastern person then and now-it seems to me that you have to take into consideration the fact that-at least nowadays- there is also a wide range of skin complexions for Middle Eastern people.

There appears to be some documentation now of what people looked like who lived in the same area Jesus did. Given that documentation and given the wide color continuum of Black Americans, I believe that the statement that Jesus could have been mistaken for a Black man is accurate-as long as we are talking about the definition of "Black man" being the one used for Black Americans.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that Jesus lookes like a certain type of Black man.

And if racial profiling of Middle Eastern looking people officially occurs, and the historical Jesus were to come back and attempt to board a plane, he would be subject to racial profiling just like other non-White men.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:46 PM

Don- I didn't see your post until I submitted my own.

What you said....

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:58 PM

Great Minds then to think alike.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Mooh
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:07 PM

Don...Valid point, but surely He won't be simply repeating himself, though I wonder how he'll improve upon his prior messages. Yeah, yeah, I know...more of what we fail to comprehend now...

My dogs don't care or even apparently notice my grooming, so what should His matter? More a rhetorical question maybe...Maybe He will have his own fashion line.

Fashions by Jesus.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:10 PM

If any of that stuff about the second coming, armageddon, the beast etc etc is true, then it is pretty obvious to me that it all happens constantly on a personal level. That the Christ and Antichrist come to each person whenever they are due. Thus Jesus must look like whoever it is who is experienceing their Lo-and-Behold moment at that or any other time.
I mean that's really the only way it can work, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM

Interesting thread, just read it. well done evrybody.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM

Question:
Why does what Jesus looked like matter?

One Response:
Because racism against non-White people still exist on personal and institutional levels. Jesus being portrayed as a White man is an expression of that racism.

See these brief vingettes in Teen Voices Online, Loving the Skin I'm In about one teen's personal experiences with skin color prejudice.

Here's one excerpt of that article:

"Hey, Tricia, where are you from?" Josh Evans yells from the back of the bus.
      I feel myself begin to tremble. Josh Evans, the coolest eighth grader in school, normally ignores me, a lowly seventh grader and good student to boot. Today, he is singling me out of the entire bus, because I am different. Different. In middle school, when self-confidence is at an all-time low, individuality scarcely exists, and kids strive to conform, I have to be different. "Different" is such an ugly word.
I keep my calm. "America," I reply defiantly.
"No, no," he says. "Where are you from?"
"I live in Fernbrook," I say. The information that he wants is
obvious; I just cannot bear to acknowledge the external difference between my peers and me.
"What race are you?" he asks.
"I'm part-Indian and part-Greek and part-Spanish," I reply, defeated.
"Indian? Whoa! So like, you have tomahawks at your house?"
The entire bus looks at me with great interest. I feel my cheeks grow warm.
"No," I say. "My parents were born in India."
"Oh," he says. "No wonder you're naturally tan. That's pretty tight."
No. It isn't "tight."
-snip-

Note that the cool eighth grader didn't intend to do anything wrong in asking this girl about her race, and at the end of the encounter complimented her by saying she was naturally tan and that was tight {meaning "cool" ; "great"}. However, reading the article you will see that the girl got her self-consciousness about her skin color from her mother's views that it is better to be light than dark.

Imo, speaking as a person of color, for White folks to say that they are "color blind" or for White folks to pretend that color makes no difference is missing the point.

In my opinion, it is better for folks of good will-of all races and ethnicities-to recognize the need to root out our own color prejudice. And imo, it is better for folks of good will to work toward a time when no value judgements are attached to skin colors and institutional racism which benefits one race over others is completely eradicated.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Grab
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:43 AM

Fair comment about mixed-race people today, Azizi. But that quote from Revelations (for what good it is) is pretty clear about the general skin tone being "finest brass", which no-one with mixed African and European blood will ever have.

FWIW, I think it's all crap anyway. Jesus should be a role model, not a race model. If someone needs to imagine him your colour to make him relevant as a "father figure" for them, then that's fine. But saying "he was definitely this skin colour" is bad history, and saying "he was definitely this skin colour so he's not relevant to you" is worse theology.

On that topic, a couple of Xmasses back in the UK there was a series of stamps depicting the Holy Family as being various ethnic groups. The one with the Virgin Mary being Indian with a bindi spot got particular flak from the narrow-minded. Me, I thought it was possibly the best depiction of what religion *should* be that I'd ever seen.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Mooh
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:22 AM

Jesus then, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Works for me.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:33 PM

Jesus being represented as a white guy is an expression of racism if (and only if) you assume that there was no historical personage behind the mythography. If there was such a person, the probability is overwhelming that he was what would today be considered "white" (i.e. not "of color.") To impute "racism" to such a conclusion is itself racist. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:02 PM

"If there was such a person [as a historical Jesus], the probability is overwhelming that he was what would today be considered "white" (i.e. not "of color.")"

If you really meant this statement, BuckMulligan, then your definition of a "White" person must differ greatly from the definition most people have been using for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:16 PM

Hurrah! for an expanded definition of who is part of the White race.

Are people of Black/White ancestry White? Yes, according to this inclusive definition of White. Even if they are dark skinned and look like what people used to say Black people look like, if they have any White ancestry what so ever, they can say they're White and be enthusiatically accepted into that race.

Hurrah for inclusiveness!

Are people of Native American/White ancestry White? Yes, according to this inclusive definition of White. Even if they are brown skinned and look like what people used to say Native Americans look like, if they have any White ancestry what so ever, they can say they're White and be enthusiatically accepted into that race.

Hurrah for inclusiveness!

Are people of Latino/White ancestry White? Yes, according to this inclusive definition of White. Even if they too are brown skinned and look like what people used to say Latinos/Latinas look like, if they have any White ancestry what so ever, they can say they're White and be enthusiatically accepted into that race.

Are people of Asian/White ancestry White? Yes, according to this inclusive definition of White. Even if they look like whatever people used to think Asians looked like {brown skin, yellow skin}, if they have any White ancestry what so ever, they can say they're White and be enthusiatically accepted into that race.

Hip Hip Hurrah for an expanded inclusive definition of who is White!

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:30 PM

"Clothes - simple, cheap and practical, coarse weave cloth. " Mr. Red

Eventually, according to the story, Jesus was garbed in finer robes than most people had. See the crucifiction scene inre the soldiers' gambling.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: emjay
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:03 PM

I think the most important thing to realize is that we will describe a person as black or brown, but how seldom we -- any of us -- use white as part of the description.
That says a lot about why it matters what Jesus looked like.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:35 PM

When you say that "we--any of us--use white as part of the description", emjay, I believe that by "we" you mean those who post on Mudcat who are White.

There are times when I {and other people of color I know} describe people as White.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with race being used as a descriptor, as long as there is no positive or negative value given to that descriptor.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: emjay
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:16 PM

Yes, I think it is mostly white people who do not use white as part of the description. I can't say what black people do or do not do because I think I just don't notice. It bothers me when (white) people think it necessary to describe a person as black when no other physical description is given and the color has nothing to do with the subject at hand. If we are giving a physical description, then color is part of it, and white could just as easily be a part of the description as anything else.
That is what is interesting about this thread, that it is so important to know what color Jesus's skin was. And yes, it is important to people who have what is probably the same color skin and have been treated badly because of it. And it's important to those who have treated different people differently because of the color of their skin. It is very important.
In a writing class (all white people) many years ago, the teacher told the whole class that our failure to note the color of skin of white people we described was evidence of racism on our parts. I didn't agree with the teacher then, but I have been very conscious of doing or not doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:36 PM

The Zebra goes to heaven and approaches God with the question that has been on his mind for years.

"God," he asks, "am I white with black stripes or black with white stripes?"

"You are what you are." Answered God.

Pondering this answer for years the Zebra eventualy approaches St Peter and explains what went on.

"Well, that's easy." Says Peter. "You are white."

"How do you figure that out?" asks the Zebra.

"Well, if you were black he would have said you is what you is..."

No offence intended to anyone but perhaps the issue of race is as ridiculous as the above example?

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:41 PM

"No offence intended to anyone but perhaps the issue of race is as ridiculous as the above example?"

And perhaps not.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:48 PM

Don't understand, Azizi, sorry:-( Am I being slow today?

Did you ever finish the book on the Pace Egg Play btw and did you ever try to re-create it? Or was it any use to anyone else? Not too far from the thread btw as the resuraction of 'Slasher' is supposed to be representative of Jesus. (So I'm told!)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:34 PM

Dave, yes, I did finish the book, thank you so much for sending it to me. I love learning about different cultures.

With regards to the joke, Dave, I'll pm you.

I'm not going to make any other comment regarding it on this thread.

Positive vibrations,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

I'll look forward to your pm as ever Azizi - your posts and pm's are always wlcome:-)

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: emjay
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:06 PM

If I can't refrain from sounding so pompous, I may never post again!
Sorry -- but maybe nobody read it.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:57 PM

emjay, for some reason, I didn't see your 31 Aug 06 - 05:16 PM
post when I responded to Dave's post earlier this evening.

I have read that post and I don't think it was pompous at all.

I'm not sure I understood what your teacher was trying to convey with her statement. Maybe describing the people's race wasn't pertinent to the conversations and ,therefore, why do it?

While I believe that Jesus' teachings transcends race,in my opinion, the fact that some White people and some Black people and others would be upset if Jesus was depicted as a person who looked like a Middle Eastern man {i.e. brown skinned} is just more evidence of the fact that we {people of the world} have not moved far from an
Euro-centric approach to the world that judges White people as the gold standard and every other people as less than. Using such a standard, Jesus {and God}have to be pictured as White.

It is easy to see how this Eurocentric approach is detrimental to the self esteem and the group esteem of non-European people. But I also think that {perhaps in more subtle ways} it is also detrimental to White people.

****

Emjay, I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Best wishes, and see you around the 'Cat,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Ian P
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:47 AM

Have you considered? ... The Gospel writers thought JC's teachings were significant enough to record. They didn't think his appearance was.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:54 AM

I don't know what he looked like but he definitely had a bleeding heart.

From common dreams:

Jesus was the ultimate liberal progressive revolutionary of all history. The conservative religious and social structure that He defied hated and crucified Him. They examined His life and did not like what they saw. He aligned Himself with the poor and the oppressed. He challenged the religious orthodoxy of His day. He advocated pacifism and loving our enemies. He liberated women and minorities from oppression. He healed on the Sabbath and forgave adulterers and prostitutes. He associated with drunks and other social outcasts. He rebuked the religious right of His day because they embraced the letter of the law instead of the Spirit. He loved sinners and called them to Himself. Jesus was the original Liberal. He was a progressive, and He was judged and hated for it. It was the self-righteous religionists that He rebuked and He called them hypocrites."

The White people of the time were living far to the north and were still worshipping their pagan Gods. The chances of Jesus being White were very, very slim. Jewish, Arab or African possibly but White, like most of the pictures - very doubtful.

He was most likely brownish with an additonal tan from all those days of wandering.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Robot From Space
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:44 PM

Why does everybody assume that Jesus looked like a fucking arab? His father was GOD not an arab. He had fair skin, blue eyes and a lovely mane of golden/brown hair. Mohammed now he was an ugly geezer.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Robot From Space
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:47 PM

Dianavan - The inhabitants of the area were WHITE. Jews are predominately a white race.Romans are also white.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:53 PM

Hurrah! for an expanded definition of who is part of the White race.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 04:32 PM

Oh, goody. We finally know what God looks like. Since Mary, mother of Jesus, was a Jew and presumably shared Semitic charactics, it follows that if Jesus was blue eyed, fairskinned and had golden hair, those characteristics had to come from his father.

At long last.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 05:21 PM

He was actualy 18" tall, had a long gray beard, wore bright coloured clothes and liked to fish in garden ponds.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 05:44 PM

Come on, Dave- you're describing your own ancestor.

Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 06:39 PM

God? Well... she's Asian.